Foreign-Owned Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Isn't what he's really saying...

Thai's own land, but the Thai person is related to a foreigner (spouse, brother-in-law, etc.), so we think they got the money for the land from the foreigner, and therefore we want to take it away from the Thai person that owns it because it really means the foreigner owns it.

This would get laughed out of court by any reasonable judge...

(Now the nominee shareholders of "Thai" companies... - that might be a different matter entirely as that may actually be provable in court... However, if they start going down that road, there are lots of rocks to be turned over, starting with DTAC, Tesco, Toyota, Nissan, Western Digital, etc. etc. It would rather go against the attempt to get companies to continue to invest in Thailand after the flooding...)

Isn't what he's really saying...

Thai's own land, but the Thai person is related to a foreigner (spouse, brother-in-law, etc.), so we think they got the money for the land from the foreigner, and therefore we want to take it away from the Thai person that owns it because it really means the foreigner owns it.

This would get laughed out of court by any reasonable judge...

(Now the nominee shareholders of "Thai" companies... - that might be a different matter entirely as that may actually be provable in court... However, if they start going down that road, there are lots of rocks to be turned over, starting with DTAC, Tesco, Toyota, Nissan, Western Digital, etc. etc. It would rather go against the attempt to get companies to continue to invest in Thailand after the flooding...)

It isn't as though a "nominee" shareholder for any of these international firms add their considerable names to the shareholders for nothing. There is no way on earth they are ever going to give up that gravy train. Would you? They would shut him up in a second if he messed with their silent benefits.

[RedNIvar]

For some reason I have this feeling of deja-vu. At least this time around they missed the smart Singaporeans that invest to make money!!!

[Thai at Heart]

The ethnic Chinese Thais desperately cling to their ill gotten gains.

Oh don't be so cynical, we all know that all this protection is for the overall "good" of the country.........

[otherstuff1957]

The most egregious 'offenders' are not individual foreigners, but foreign corporations like the big hotel chains, etc. that own land with "majority Thai shareholders" who are really nominees.

I know that international investment in farmland is a big business in South America and Africa. The biggest investors in farmland are the Chinese and the Arabs, both of which are looking at long-term food security, as well as big US and European multinationals, who are interested in profiting from supplying food security to the Chinese and the Arabs!

I've hear rumors that some middle-easterners have invested heavily in Central Thai farmland through Thai nominees. If this is true, the Thai nominees will probably be wealthy, well-connected people in their own right who will be legally untouchable. Consequently, if the government does decide to crack down on this problem, they will probably be deflected from any real offenders and will end up going after the small fry.... that is, you and me!

[Thai at Heart]

The most egregious 'offenders' are not individual foreigners, but foreign corporations like the big hotel chains, etc. that own land with "majority Thai shareholders" who are really nominees.

I know that international investment in farmland is a big business in South America and Africa. The biggest investors in farmland are the Chinese and the Arabs, both of which are looking at long-term food security, as well as big US and European multinationals, who are interested in profiting from supplying food security to the Chinese and the Arabs!

I've hear rumors that some middle-easterners have invested heavily in Central Thai farmland through Thai nominees. If this is true, the Thai nominees will probably be wealthy, well-connected people in their own right who will be legally untouchable. Consequently, if the government does decide to crack down on this problem, they will probably be deflected from any real offenders and will end up going after the small fry.... that is, you and me!

The point is, there is a snowballs chance in hell they are going to crack down on anyone, be it companies or any other type, unless there was something paid under the table to get the land usage titles changed.

Thailand exports rice. Arabs want to buy rice. Arabs partner up with Thais to secure land and grow rice. Thai farmers grow rice get paid. Thai company exports rice, gets paid. Arabs eat rice. There is absolutely no way on earth to prove that this is a nominee share structure since Thais own 51% of the company. The Thai's brought the land, the Arabs brought the money.

Ironically, I worked for precisely a company like this that has been in existence for over 60 years, exporting product all over the world, and I know without a doubt, no one is ever going to accuse that Thai/Chinese family of being nominees. They have been great successful partners and are today politically so well connected that no one is ever going to dare to touch them. I find it extremely difficult to understand the issue, without the foreign capital many of these companies would never have got of the ground, and where would the country be today? A long way further back than they are today, that is without doubt.

[Johpa]

Sriracha Charoenpanich = xenophobe.

And with a family name like Charoenpanich, well trained readers will assume that such a person would have intimate knowledge about foreigners owning not just land but almost the entire freaking Kingdom. I daresay the pot is calling the kettle black.

Chaiyo!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Johpa

[nbm47]

This old hoary chestnut comes around every 2 years or so, about foreigners owning land in Thailand. Eveyone who has lived here any length of time knows fully that all the prime land in Thailand is owned by Chinese - Thai's and its been like that for centuries. Even the politicians who bring this subject are themselves of Chinese/Thai origins, so please give it a rest and if you must complain, mention the fact that they mean Chinese/Thai when they call these people foreigners.

[Nisa]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

[Thai at Heart]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

Confiscate it from Thai companies and Thai people? Hmmmm.. Who would you deport? The nominees or the capital bringers? If the name on the titles or the companies are 51% Thai, they are Thai.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[Reasonableman]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

And for the non-foreigners who do the same, what do you suggest?

[Nisa]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

Confiscate it from Thai companies and Thai people? Hmmmm.. Who would you deport? The nominees or the capital bringers? If the name on the titles or the companies are 51% Thai, they are Thai.

I was referring to foreigners who break the law to control land in Thailand .. did you really not get that? As for the nominees who are also acting illegally... stiff penalties should be enforced to discourage this kind of fraud that helps drives up land prices beyond the reach of most Thais. The nominees are facilitating the breaking of a law by a foreigner and have signed away any rights to the property in these deals. So, yes confiscate it and sell it at auction and enforce whatever laws needed to encourage these folks and others from helping a foreigner illegally obtain land in their country.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Nisa

[Thai at Heart]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

Confiscate it from Thai companies and Thai people? Hmmmm.. Who would you deport? The nominees or the capital bringers? If the name on the titles or the companies are 51% Thai, they are Thai.

I was referring to foreigners who break the law to control land in Thailand .. did you really not get that? As for the nominees who are also acting illegally... stiff penalties should be enforced to discourage this kind of fraud that helps drives up land prices beyond the reach of most Thais.

How on earth do you prove who "controls" land? Does the land take orders from people?

The family house is in my wife's name, I can tell the gardener to cut the grass? Am I controlling the land

[Nisa]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

And for the non-foreigners who do the same, what do you suggest?

I guess you have to explain to me what you mean in terms of how citizens are buying or controlling property illegally and/or how it relates to this topic. Although I am of the opinion people need to obey laws and if they don't then they should be willing to accept the consequences, I also believe foreigners in any country should be dealt with more severely when they knowingly break the law ... especially when it is a law designed to protect the citizens of that country. Citizens that help foreigners do the same should also be dealt with more severely than if they helped a citizen break a similar law. These are my views on how I believe my own home country should operate and try to treat other countries with the same level of respect when I am the foreigner.

[pisico]

I agree with the Thais to a certain extend. In my country (Brazil) foreigners could own unlimited amounts of land until a few years ago. You know what happened? The Chinese came in and bought vast amounts of agriculture land, I am talking about huge areas that equal the size of small countries in Europe. They come in <snip> up the soil with their polluting pesticides and herbicides all to produce food mostly for their cattle back in China. This is a real problem in Brazil nowadays and many other countries in South America. In Panama, central America they did the same thing, the tip of the country on the pacific side is almost entirely owned by Chinese companies, not even the Panamanians can get in there. I would not be surprised they are doing this in Thailand because of the Chinese.

Amigo, you are right. But before the Chinese arrived in Brazil, already existed Cubatao and other cities severely contaminated and large areas contaminated by aggro-toxins. I hope you are old enough to remember. Remember that city that had to be buried (not fiction, a city of hundreds of thousands had to be covered with soil and a high fence perimeter set up) because of radiation? Esqueci o nome. The problem is always the same: rola grana na mao (grease someone's hand) of an official and you get away with murder. The Chinese cannot be expected to care about Brazil's environment when they are quite happy to screw up their own. I was in China in 2008 and the pollution was palpable in Beijing. Blame those who allow that to happen. If there is a red light and the driver does not stop the car and drives over a pedestrian, will you blame the manufacturer of the car? I know that it is a loose analogy but the point is that the law should also come down on the nationals that allow pollution, transgressions of the law at any level. In Thailand most laws are applied strictly to foreigners. For Thais is rather a suggestion. The red light means stop? The sidewalks are not intended for motorcycles? Really? Who would have thunk!

[Tatsujin]

What loopholes are your referring to? The fake company route that doesn't pay taxes etc? If so, whoever has gone down that road will lose the lot "if" they decide to check up on it.

[Nisa]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

Confiscate it from Thai companies and Thai people? Hmmmm.. Who would you deport? The nominees or the capital bringers? If the name on the titles or the companies are 51% Thai, they are Thai.

I was referring to foreigners who break the law to control land in Thailand .. did you really not get that? As for the nominees who are also acting illegally... stiff penalties should be enforced to discourage this kind of fraud that helps drives up land prices beyond the reach of most Thais.

How on earth do you prove who "controls" land? Does the land take orders from people?

The family house is in my wife's name, I can tell the gardener to cut the grass? Am I controlling the land

Do you really not understand the context the word "control" is being used as it pertains to this thread? I apologize if you aren't simply being argumentative and missed my meaning. And if that is the case, consider the word "own" instead of "control" but I used the word "control" because in these illegal cases they don't "own" the land because by definition they cannot "own" the land but instead they have tried to circumvent the law to "control" the land becoming the de facto " owner"

But to get back to my point -- it was simple in that I believe it is appropriate to treat foreign law breakers the same way I would in my own country ... especially when they are breaking laws specifically aimed at protecting the prosperity of its citizens.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Nisa

[kirk0233]

Perhaps foreigners should start a class action lawsuit for libel.

[Thai at Heart]

Do you really not understand the context the word "control" is being used as it pertains to this thread? I apologize if you aren't simply being argumentative and missed my meaning. And if that is the case, consider the word "own" instead of "control" but I used the word "control" because in these illegal cases they don't "own" the land because by definition they cannot "own" the land but instead they have tried to circumvent the law to "control" the land becoming the de facto " owner"

But to get back to my point -- it was simple that I believe it is appropriate to treat foreign law breakers the same way I would in my own country.

That is all fair enough. If people have gone down the company route to own the land within a company, the company has to be 51:49, so the ownership is already THAI, by definition, the foreigner doesn't OWN the land. In the case of wives, the documents have to be submitted rescinding any rights the foreigner has to the land.

I don't see how any of the accusations that are being thrown around here, prove that a foreigner owns the land. A foreign name isn't on the chanote, a company can't be more than 49% owned by a foreigner in this situation, so how does anyone PROVE that the land is OWNED by a foreigner? The company is majority Thai owned, so it is THAI.

Of course throw the book at anyone who has somehow managed to get their foreign name put on a chanote, but has anyone EVER heard of this being possible? And no in this context, I don't understand the context of the word "control" in this situation. There are company structures, votes that have to be tallied to decide what a company does with its assets. No one has been coerced against their will to do anything, so how does anyone conclude or prove that someone CONTROLS something beyond the will of someone else?

[Nisa]

Do you really not understand the context the word "control" is being used as it pertains to this thread? I apologize if you aren't simply being argumentative and missed my meaning. And if that is the case, consider the word "own" instead of "control" but I used the word "control" because in these illegal cases they don't "own" the land because by definition they cannot "own" the land but instead they have tried to circumvent the law to "control" the land becoming the de facto " owner"

But to get back to my point -- it was simple that I believe it is appropriate to treat foreign law breakers the same way I would in my own country.

That is all fair enough. If people have gone down the company route to own the land within a company, the company has to be 51:49, so the ownership is already THAI, by definition, the foreigner doesn't OWN the land. In the case of wives, the documents have to be submitted rescinding any rights the foreigner has to the land.

I don't see how any of the accusations that are being thrown around here, prove that a foreigner owns the land. A foreign name isn't on the chanote, a company can't be more than 49% owned by a foreigner in this situation, so how does anyone PROVE that the land is OWNED by a foreigner? The company is majority Thai owned, so it is THAI.

Of course throw the book at anyone who has somehow managed to get their foreign name put on a chanote, but has anyone EVER heard of this being possible? And no in this context, I don't understand the context of the word "control" in this situation. There are company structures, votes that have to be tallied to decide what a company does with its assets. No one has been coerced against their will to do anything, so how does anyone conclude or prove that someone CONTROLS something beyond the will of someone else?

Nominees in these illegal cases have nothing to do with the business and in many (if not most cases) the foreigner doesn't even know who the nominee is except that their information appears on paper. Nominees in these cases are simply paid a small fee and usually have no idea what you are getting into. Would you really want the nominee to be able to come back and see what your business or property is worth and try to claim what the government already believes is theirs?

In the cases of "real" wives, it really doesn't matter because she can claim the ownership any time she wants despite any side contracts and if the marriage is real then asserts are usually shared anyway. Obviously a the wife of a foreigner buying up a lot of land is going to be looked at closer than Husband and Wife with kids with a single home.

But to answer your question, I have no idea how they investigate and have never been involved in one of these illegal deals and am just sharing what I know about others being involved.

[Thai at Heart]

Do you really not understand the context the word "control" is being used as it pertains to this thread? I apologize if you aren't simply being argumentative and missed my meaning. And if that is the case, consider the word "own" instead of "control" but I used the word "control" because in these illegal cases they don't "own" the land because by definition they cannot "own" the land but instead they have tried to circumvent the law to "control" the land becoming the de facto " owner"

But to get back to my point -- it was simple that I believe it is appropriate to treat foreign law breakers the same way I would in my own country.

That is all fair enough. If people have gone down the company route to own the land within a company, the company has to be 51:49, so the ownership is already THAI, by definition, the foreigner doesn't OWN the land. In the case of wives, the documents have to be submitted rescinding any rights the foreigner has to the land.

I don't see how any of the accusations that are being thrown around here, prove that a foreigner owns the land. A foreign name isn't on the chanote, a company can't be more than 49% owned by a foreigner in this situation, so how does anyone PROVE that the land is OWNED by a foreigner? The company is majority Thai owned, so it is THAI.

Of course throw the book at anyone who has somehow managed to get their foreign name put on a chanote, but has anyone EVER heard of this being possible? And no in this context, I don't understand the context of the word "control" in this situation. There are company structures, votes that have to be tallied to decide what a company does with its assets. No one has been coerced against their will to do anything, so how does anyone conclude or prove that someone CONTROLS something beyond the will of someone else?

Nominees in these illegal cases have nothing to do with the business and in many (if not most cases) the foreigner doesn't even know who the nominee is except that their information appears on paper. Nominees in these cases are simply paid a small fee and usually have no idea what you are getting into. Would you really want the nominee to be able to come back and see what your business or property is worth and try to claim what the government already believes is theirs?

In the cases of "real" wives, it really doesn't matter because she can claim the ownership any time she wants despite any side contracts and if the marriage is real then asserts are usually shared anyway. Obviously a the wife of a foreigner buying up a lot of land is going to be looked at closer than Husband and Wife with kids with a single home.

But to answer your question, I have no idea how they investigate and have never been involved in one of these illegal deals and am just sharing what I know about others being involved.

Plenty of director/shareholders and directors in the world and here who do very little to scrutinise a company. Proving nominee status is virtually impossible.

[Felt 35]

Election this year to....

[KLL]

it is common understanding that drug dealers are MORE criminal than drug users, so if buying land for foreigner is same illegal, put the land seller in jail first!

[daninthai]

Do you really not understand the context the word "control" is being used as it pertains to this thread? I apologize if you aren't simply being argumentative and missed my meaning. And if that is the case, consider the word "own" instead of "control" but I used the word "control" because in these illegal cases they don't "own" the land because by definition they cannot "own" the land but instead they have tried to circumvent the law to "control" the land becoming the de facto " owner"

But to get back to my point -- it was simple that I believe it is appropriate to treat foreign law breakers the same way I would in my own country.

That is all fair enough. If people have gone down the company route to own the land within a company, the company has to be 51:49, so the ownership is already THAI, by definition, the foreigner doesn't OWN the land. In the case of wives, the documents have to be submitted rescinding any rights the foreigner has to the land.

I don't see how any of the accusations that are being thrown around here, prove that a foreigner owns the land. A foreign name isn't on the chanote, a company can't be more than 49% owned by a foreigner in this situation, so how does anyone PROVE that the land is OWNED by a foreigner? The company is majority Thai owned, so it is THAI.

Of course throw the book at anyone who has somehow managed to get their foreign name put on a chanote, but has anyone EVER heard of this being possible? And no in this context, I don't understand the context of the word "control" in this situation. There are company structures, votes that have to be tallied to decide what a company does with its assets. No one has been coerced against their will to do anything, so how does anyone conclude or prove that someone CONTROLS something beyond the will of someone else?

Thank you for being clear about this. Obviously Nisa doesn't understand the situation that clearly.

[fire and ice]

Thailand IS majority owned by Foreign interests. Chinese Thais.

Some live in Dubai.

I think the 100,000,000 rai is the (relatively small) amount of land owned by non-Chinese Thais. The writer is probably really annoyed non-Chinese Thais own any land at all.

[pacovl46]

The thing is "by proxy" is meaningless. The fact is that almost none of the land is owned by foreigners - some held by Thai spouses (the key being "Thai" spouses) with no long term recourse to the foreigner if that spouse should die. The rest is held in companies that are majority owned by Thais - as this is what the laws says in relation to companies owning land. This is just the usual baloney.

The question should be asked - if lland was owned bt foreigners, so what? They can't exactly take it home with them. They are paying at least the same taxes and fees on that land. What is the issue? The usual klap-trap about foreigners pricing out locals is spouted in answer - and it is just that klap-trap. At the moment wealthy Thais control the prices of land in areas - and in some areas certainly have pushed locals out. Wealthy Thais buy up tracts of land nad build condos in tourist and popular areas that local Thais could not afford. Most foreigners would want land to live on. If it was on some idea of investment, then there are about a million better places on earth to invest in land on - places where land prices increase and ownership is guaranteed and there are laws to stop neighbours doing whatever they like "next door" to devalue your land.

If foreigners could ow land, then there would be a new invigoration in land/property markets, and a move away from the monopolistic status quo. It's not hard to see the real meaning behind such report as this - its just flag waving, blaming the foreigner and turning attention away from the large corrupt and illegal practises perpatrated by wealthy land owning (encroching) Thais.

Edit: Just to add...

A law expert of the National institute of Development Administration believes that the problem will be more severe, especially after the formation of the ASEAN Economic Community om 2015. Foreign investors may try to exploit the legal loopholes to buy up prime real estates. Thailand must gear up and integrate its enforcement agencies to be more effective. The real estate laws need to be revised with more strict penalties in place and the foreigners who break them must be deported out of the country.

...Does this sound like a ploy to get grubby hands on said prime real estate me wonders!

They're just jealous because apparently these falangs own prime real estate and are making money off it - money that doesn't flow into Thai pockets. As soon as the falangs are gone the Thais move in on the business side of it. There's a word for it: Hostile Takeover!

[harryfrompattaya]

Perhaps foreigners should start a class action lawsuit for libel.

Maybe the Government is protecting Farangs from buying land as they known they only lose it.

I think the Government is doing the Farang a favor.

[mrtoad]

Do Montenegrins get a special dispensation?

[animatic]

You can understand why Thailand has this fear of foreigners buying up their prime land and forcing out the 'ordinary Thai' but in reality it is the rich, well connected Thais who do this anyway.

Quite where the ombudsman gets these inflated figures from I don't know..... maybe by using the same abacus TAT uses perhaps?

But the big boys ARE THAI so that makes it OK.

And there is a push to distract from home grown problems,

so the nasty farangs are the easiest target for the xenophobics

and jingoists who want only to profit for themselves.

The most pathetic part is most all land bought via small company

and with a thai wife is going to pass to her and or her / their children

in the long run. land NEVER leaves the country of origin.

Rarely does land stay in the same foreign hands for more than 30-40 years.

Edited March 15, 2012 by animatic

[Gweiloman]

You can understand why Thailand has this fear of foreigners buying up their prime land and forcing out the 'ordinary Thai' but in reality it is the rich, well connected Thais who do this anyway.

Quite where the ombudsman gets these inflated figures from I don't know..... maybe by using the same abacus TAT uses perhaps?

But the big boys ARE THAI so that makes it OK.

And there is a push to distract from home grown problems,

so the nasty farangs are the easiest target for the xenophobics

and jingoists who want only to profit for themselves.

Reading the posts on this thread (and many others), I wonder whom are the real xenophobes ...... Thais or Farangs.

[slipperx]

Confiscate the land and sell it at auction, have them spend 30-days in a Thai detention center before deciding to drop charges and then deport them. This is certainly what I would want done to foreigners who illegally obtain land or run illegals business in my country.

That might be quite sensible if you actually had any properly written understandable laws here. Since you don't it would be better to clarify exactly what a foreigner can and cannot do. If you are saying a Thai girl cannot own land if she is married to a foreigner you are truly a typical sexist Asian male