Grounding Of Electricity In Condo

[Firefan]

Hi!

I own a condo BKK on the 20th floor in an older building with no electrical grounding as we often see here in Thailand.

I wish to reduce the sparks, as well as risk especially to PCs and other sensitive electronics, as well as water heater Etc.

I have seen people discussing the subject in the Do It Yourself forum - but that would mean certain death for this retard!

Anybody knows whether:

1. can anything be done to arrange for grounding in an condo (a 60 m cable over the balcony seems unlikely!)

2. if potentially possible to do SOMETHING, who can come and give a quote/check for options? Guessing some Western style/managed service that does not just do a half ass solution).

I tried to contact the thailandguru.com guy, Mark, - as he seems knowledgeable on this but have yet to get a reply.

Cheers!

[Crossy]

First and foremost if you do not have an RCD or Safe-T-Cut, install one!

As to grounds. Older buildings often have galvanised water pipes which will make an adequate ground if you have RCD protection, clamp on to the pipe as close to the incoming supply as possible. Plastic pipes? How about using your balcony railing?

Please note, neither of the above would be considered adequate without the RCD, they will however provide better protection from shock and that nasty tingle you can get from your PC than having nothing at all.

[Deke]

Check inside your consumer unit to see if there's not already a ground connection there; just no internal wiring attached to it. I've seen several condo installations like this.

[Firefan]

Crossy and Deke; thanks for the replies. I DO have (several) RCCBs so that's at least a comfort when comes to safety. Deke; yes, that is another reason I would like an expert to come and check/advise, because I am clueless

I doubt that grounding via my water pipes will work as seen quite a bit of plastic tubing the few times I have had a chance to peak behind the walls (during repairs/leaks Etc.).

Grounding via the balcony railing sounds like an idea I wonder how well that would work and how to actually test that a true grounding is taking place?

Oh; and btw there might actually be other health benefits (besides avoiding being chocked to death!) in arranging some grounding of even ones bed/other items based on this: http://www.groundology.com/about_grounding.php

Cheers!

[briley]

I'd say do check the Condo wiring first.

I stopped one owner who was running a thick copper wire down 9 floors to install his own earth at some expense to himself. I pointed out that the building did have an earth wired to a star whatever that went through all the electric rooms. But few owners had their unit connected to the earth.

For the cost of a good Choc block and a few metres of wiring we now have another happy camper.

[Firefan]

Hi Briley!

Thanks for that. I will see what the building electricians say. I still would want some Western type/standard electrician to come check it all, but they do not seem to reply to my emails (2 different ones now).

Cheers!

I'd say do check the Condo wiring first.

I stopped one owner who was running a thick copper wire down 9 floors to install his own earth at some expense to himself. I pointed out that the building did have an earth wired to a star whatever that went through all the electric rooms. But few owners had their unit connected to the earth.

For the cost of a good Choc block and a few metres of wiring we now have another happy camper.

[electau]

Most likely there will not be an incoming earthing conductor at the condo distribution board. This is quite normal . Do you have 2 pin socket outlets?

It would be recomended that an RCBO be installed. However installing 3 pin socket outlets and bonding the earth to a steel water pipe would provide additional protection. You should also earth your HWS if you have not already done so.

Have you any 2 pin appliances and 2 core extension leads/power boards?

[electau]

Most electrical installations in Thailand lack a compliant protective earthing system and main earth.

[briley]

It would be recomended that an RCBO be installed. However installing 3 pin socket outlets and bonding the earth to a steel water pipe would provide additional protection. You should also earth your HWS if you have not already done so.

I would not rely on connecting to steel water pipes. Most pipework these days are plastic. We have changed all our main pipework to plastic, but inside the unit they are normally metal since that is the owners responsibility to change. Of course that makes then a useless earth connection.

[electau]

It would be recomended that an RCBO be installed. However installing 3 pin socket outlets and bonding the earth to a steel water pipe would provide additional protection. You should also earth your HWS if you have not already done so.

I would not rely on connecting to steel water pipes. Most pipework these days are plastic. We have changed all our main pipework to plastic, but inside the unit they are normally metal since that is the owners responsibility to change. Of course that makes then a useless earth connection.

If they are pvc you will not be using them, first verify that the steel waterpipes if available are connected to the general mass of earth. otherwise an alternative method has to be used.

[Daffy D]

There always seem to be questions about earthing/grounding in a condo.

Having just learned (from this forum) about Ufer grounding systems couldn't you just drill a hole in a concrete wall or in the corner of the balcony and fit one of those Rawlplug expanding metal bolts and attach the earth wire to that ?

Maybe a little improvement the flower pot idea.

Now all together to the tune of Dem Bones

♫♪♫

Rawlplug connected to da concrete - concrete connected to da rebar - rebar connected to da concrete - concrete connected to da ground earth - Oh, hear the word of the Lord Four Lads Them Dry Bones.mp3

[Crossy]

Having just learned (from this forum) about Ufer grounding systems couldn't you just drill a hole in a concrete wall or in the corner of the balcony and fit one of those Rawlplug expanding metal bolts and attach the earth wire to that ?

If you can actually connect to the re-bar itself you will likely get a pretty good ground, just relying on a Rawlbolt in the concrete probably won't work well enough for safety.

In the flowerpot thread I made measurements using my balcony railing as a convenient way of accessing the re-bar directly (the railings are welded to the re-bar internally), the result would be a very acceptable ground for a system using RCDs as secondary protection.

[mistitikimikis]

DON'T use the "Thai way" i.e. drill a hole, connect the wire onto the screw and....................

Use a vertical beam, try to find an iron bar in the reinforced concrete (sometimes not too difficult as it happens that the iron is very much on the surface which causes cracks and even flaking-off finish). When you have a bar, which will be rusty, clean as much as possible and connect your self-made earth with a special copper connection, don't wind the wire just around the bar, which causes an unnecessary resistance.

Normally the bars are internal connected everywhere which gives you a very good earth.

[Firefan]

Hi guys,

thanks for the replies - I now had a basis to ask the building management and the confirmed that there IS grounding installed and that they connect to each condo unit - but unclear "where it goes from there" - I.e. I am almost certain it is not connected to my electric "box" and from there to my (currently 2 pin) plugs.

Here is a photo of the grounding they send me. The black wires lead to a metal bolted beam:

So next step for me is to meet with the technicians and figure out how to upgrade to grounded plugs (Incl. change to 3 pin). I presume an entire rewiring would be needed (from my central box to the plugs) as probably not already there.

Cheers!

[Crossy]

So next step for me is to meet with the technicians and figure out how to upgrade to grounded plugs (Incl. change to 3 pin). I presume an entire rewiring would be needed (from my central box to the plugs) as probably not already there.

If the grounding makes it to your distribution board you simply need to add a green wire from there to each of your 3-pin outlets, probably easier said than done mind

[Firefan]

So next step for me is to meet with the technicians and figure out how to upgrade to grounded plugs (Incl. change to 3 pin). I presume an entire rewiring would be needed (from my central box to the plugs) as probably not already there.

If the grounding makes it to your distribution board you simply need to add a green wire from there to each of your 3-pin outlets, probably easier said than done mind

Yes - I think that the grounding makes it to my distribution board - so will simply need to connect that there if not already done - BUT, the rest seems like quite a challenge (rewiring the entire condos electricity and change plugs to 3 pin). Will discuss with technicians what makes most sense (maybe just arrange for grounding to PC/tv/hifi and water heaters). Will see what they say. Thanks again!

Cheers!

[electau]

Installing a dynabolt eg 32mm x 6mm into the wall which is a conductive material will suffice for the operation of a RCD and minimise the effects of leakage current from equipment. TT earthing system only.

Edited March 27, 2012 by electau

[Daffy D]

DON'T use the "Thai way" i.e. drill a hole, connect the wire onto the screw and....................

Use a vertical beam, try to find an iron bar in the reinforced concrete (sometimes not too difficult as it happens that the iron is very much on the surface which causes cracks and even flaking-off finish). When you have a bar, which will be rusty, clean as much as possible and connect your self-made earth with a special copper connection, don't wind the wire just around the bar, which causes an unnecessary resistance.

Normally the bars are internal connected everywhere which gives you a very good earth.

I thought condo management would disapprove of hacking out chunks of concrete from support columns trying to locate a rebar.

I agree the Rawlbolt idea is not, erm! ideal but at least it is something.

We've had various suggestions including a flowerpot, connecting to the metal balcony rail and even just a screw in the wall all of which work to some degree the Rawlbolt is just another option for condo dwellers that are desperate for some kind of earth.

Just a thought, if you have "the iron is very much on the surface which causes cracks and even flaking-off finish" on the vertical beams I would seriously

consider moving,

[wpcoe]

Here is a photo of the grounding they send me. The black wires lead to a metal bolted beam:

I'm trying to learn from everybody's apparently unique wiring setups. In that pic, are those flat red/white/blue/yellow things actually wires? The way they stay straight and angle toward those bolt points (?) behave more like metal.

And then that short brass-color horizontal bar at the bottom with 9 wires attached: is that the ground bar?

[longball53098]

My uneducated eye is showing me the colored bars are the phases of the 3 phase supply and these are actually metal bus bars that carry the supply voltage to the breakers. If you look a little closer the bars are bent in such a way as to not touch each other and the bolts holding them in place are insulated from the enclosure. The ground bus is at the bottom.

This photo is a breaker panel in the main supply area of the condo? Perhaps on the floor supplying power for that floor in the condo?

That's what I see!

[Tywais]

Here is a photo of the grounding they send me. The black wires lead to a metal bolted beam:

I'm trying to learn from everybody's apparently unique wiring setups. In that pic, are those flat red/white/blue/yellow things actually wires? The way they stay straight and angle toward those bolt points (?) behave more like metal.

And then that short brass-color horizontal bar at the bottom with 9 wires attached: is that the ground bar?

That's a nicely done distribution, same as at our lab just smaller scale. Those multi-color items are not wires but buss bars and 3 phase - R,S,T and Neutral. The bottom copper buss with the black wires is the earth ground. Appears no MEN link installed.

[GAS]

Hope its ok to bump up this older thread, I am getting ready to remodel a small condo in BKK I bought late last year. The electrical is a priority. A friend of mine who does interiors will supervise and look after the job and I think he knows a competent electrician but I want to make sure things get done right.

Main concern is not getting smoked in the shower or with some other appliance! GF says building management says it is grounded. When I look at the electrical box in the room...I dunno. There is one 3 prong outlet in the wall, the rest are 2.

I am assuming things are NOT grounded at this point.

I will have someone qualified do this, but for my own edification. If I have a ground available and I get a new distribution box (see photo), are the RCB ( what we would call GFSI in the states) built into the panel? Something else? Are they at each outlet in the bath?

Finally, have no problem running new electrical and outlets as it is such a small place and have budgeted for it...is it advisable to replace all outlets with proper 3 prong grounded ones one a proper ground is in place? I would think so. If no ground, will this metal pipe suffice in interior wall ? GF seems to gather from building mngt that every room has a ground near the bathroom near the area of this photo.

[Crossy]

@Gas, no problem with a bump

Anyway to answer your questions, and probably generate more.

• Can you take a photo of the distribution board with the lid off please?

Exactly how you arrange your DB is largely up to you:-

• You can have a single RCD to protect the whole place with individual MCBs on each circuit, this is the cheapest option and could be added to the board you already have. BUT in the event of an earth fault you would lose all power.
• You can have individual RCBOs on each circuit, this will mean that if there is an earth fault you will only lose that circuit. It is however the most expensive solution. You can get individual RCBOs that fit your existing board.
• You could split the circuits between two RCDs as a sort of half-way house, unfortunately your existing board would need to be replaced to do this as the Square-D panels don't easily adapt. But if you're going to replace the board anyway it's an option.

RCD (GFCI) protected outlets are available, but they are expensive and only protect the equipment that's actually plugged in to them, not recommended for a new installation.

You need specialist kit to test your ground, but a quick and dirty test is to connect a 15W lamp between Live and Ground (yes ground), plug it in to your 3-pin outlet and turn on. If the lamp lights you have a decent ground.

If in any doubt I would put a clamp on that pipe as an extra ground path, it can never hurt.

[GAS]

Wow! 8 months later and I am bumping this thread up again, and sorry to Crossy for not replying straight away to your very helpful info!!

Well....we just moved back into the condo and while I was away I did manage to supervise some of the work, including the electrician who seemed quite competent and careful in his work.

I trust em'....but want to verify!

I bought a new Belkin surge protector today because I needed one and it also has a light that will come on when it detects a proper earth...quick way to test if ground is correct I figured...I looked at a number of places but did not find the neon lamp or 3 prong test plug device that I have seen in the States.

When we left off we confirmed Condo did have ground along with mains but most everything was 2 prong.

Had all new electrical run for kitchen and bath, all that to be grounded 3 prong, I assumed that the one previous 3 prong we had was not grounded but it lights up as ok now too.

We have a new Scheinder Square D box, I can see the old earth wire coming into it along with mains power ( #2 from left in photo ). This is where all other grounds connect to on new wiring.

Both water heaters have safe t cuts and are grounded (see photo).

Bought a new Samsung fridge, it is 2 prong with separate earth wire that goes from chassis. I bought a 3 prong plug from Home Pro and want to rewire this...as it is now, if I touch my bare arm to the metal side of the fridge I hear a very slight hum...but feel nothing. I hope this is acceptable to ground the fridge...and I guess polarity does not matter.

Finally I have two outlets in the bath, one near the sink and another where the washer/dryer combo are going. These are 3 prong grounded as well but I am wondering if I should change the breaker in the Square D box to an RCBO. I see they have these at Home Pro and that they will go right in and have a "test" button on them...about 1,500 Baht each...is this the right way to go? (especially for the circuit the washer/dryer combo will be on?)

My questions are:

1. Should I verify how good earth is with another method?

2. Is my grounding solution for fridge safe and acceptable?

3. Should I add RCBO at circuit box for extra protection for bathroom outlets?

4. The last 2 breakers on the right on the box (red wire coming out) are slightly different than the rest...anything special about them?

[Crossy]

Moved to our Shiny New Electrical Forum

Photos??

[GAS]

Cool an electrical forum, awesome!!!

Not sure why photos did not stick...let me try again!

[Crossy]

My questions are:

1. Should I verify how good earth is with another method?

2. Is my grounding solution for fridge safe and acceptable?

3. Should I add RCBO at circuit box for extra protection for bathroom outlets?

4. The last 2 breakers on the right on the box (red wire coming out) are slightly different than the rest...anything special about them?

1. You can use a 15W lamp between L and E, if it lights you have a decent earth.

2. Yes

3. It would be wise, but watch for borrowed / shared neutrals which will stop your RCBO from staying ON. It may be more cost-effective to get a whole house Safe-T-Cut. HomePro have an excellent exchange policy, so as long as you've not trimmed the blue tail on the RCBO you could swap it for a Safe-T-Cut if it won't stay engaged.

4. Just newer versions

[GAS]

Crossy, many thanks...I had a crappy lamp here but it had a cfl so I did not cut it up to use that to test per one of your posts I read. I will try and find a 15 w bulb setup that I can safely hold and I am guessing insert stripped wires into L and E?

I noticed the blue pig tail on the RCBO, where does that attach to? The whole house safe t cut can go in place of the big mains breaker now and fit in the new box correct? (I will have the sparky install these items )

EDIT: sorry one more thing, the RCBO I looked at today are I believe 10 mA, are these correct or do I need the 30mA ones?

Edited January 2, 2014 by GAS

[Crossy]

The pigtail goes to the neutral bar, you remove the circuit neutral from the bar and connect to the N output of the RCBO, the live currently in the MCB goes in the live outlet of the RCBO.

The beast should have instructions.

I could only find 10mA Square-D RCBOs in HomePro too, they will be fine (and safer) so long as you don't have any high-leakage devices (computers) on the circuit.

Front-end RCBOs to fit that Square-D box can be expensive. Safe-T-Cut make an external box that goes on the front end, not ideal as it's a new box.