Monks Taking Care Of Discarded Pets

[bina]

girlx weve discussed this before in the forum....

i have to admit, my feelings are always mixed but yesterday took the cake::

read my post in the vet pet forum (my boxer is parapalegic for the past few days and the dabate at home is euthenize or not... my 11 year old girl who has not a clue about buddhism put things so eloquently against euthenizing him ) we can not get involved in making a decision aobut someone else's life just because we are sad/or dont like what we see, or it disgusts us , its our own feelings as sabaijai or chownah stated... our own aversion or conditioning to seeing a state of being that disturbs us...

so at the moment, we dont euthenize but make our poor dog as comfortable as possible, pain relievers, hand feeding, petting and talking to him....

[girlx]

sorry to hear about your dog bina, good luck.

what is the nature of your attachment to the suffering of dogs? How does the suffering of other beings, say rats, effect you? Are you as attached to this?

suffering, period, bothers me and i do what i can to alleviate it. of course that is impossible most of the time, but the example i have given is one in which there was very little effort required to ease the suffering and yet the person chose not to make that effort. i repeat my earlier question- if a monk sees someone suffering (ie. a girl being raped), would he (based on buddhist philosophy) accept that that suffering is a result of karma and not intervene, or would he do what he could to alleviate it?

[sabaijai]

sorry to hear about your dog bina, good luck.

what is the nature of your attachment to the suffering of dogs? How does the suffering of other beings, say rats, effect you? Are you as attached to this?

suffering, period, bothers me and i do what i can to alleviate it. of course that is impossible most of the time, but the example i have given is one in which there was very little effort required to ease the suffering and yet the person chose not to make that effort. i repeat my earlier question- if a monk sees someone suffering (ie. a girl being raped), would he (based on buddhist philosophy) accept that that suffering is a result of karma and not intervene, or would he do what he could to alleviate it?

I think you know the answer to this question. But as someone else suggested, best ask the monk yourself.

[chownah]

I guess the bottom line here is that monks are people...they are all different and they all behave differently...their every action is not dictated by their position.

[longway]

sorry to hear about your dog bina, good luck.

what is the nature of your attachment to the suffering of dogs? How does the suffering of other beings, say rats, effect you? Are you as attached to this?

suffering, period, bothers me and i do what i can to alleviate it. of course that is impossible most of the time, but the example i have given is one in which there was very little effort required to ease the suffering and yet the person chose not to make that effort. i repeat my earlier question- if a monk sees someone suffering (ie. a girl being raped), would he (based on buddhist philosophy) accept that that suffering is a result of karma and not intervene, or would he do what he could to alleviate it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

im pretty new to budhism myself and spend a bit of time when i have the chance absorbing buddhist philosophy, there are some things like karma which i struggle with, i may make a post sometime about it.

however i can tell you definitively buddhist philosophy does not encourage either by inaction or action ANYTHING that results in the suffering of others or yourself for that matter. in fact it is directly opposite everything i know about buddhist teaching.

[Abandon]

This situation has nothing to do with the Buddhist teaching. It has everything to do with the OP trying to find someone to blame. She has blamed the monk, monks in general, Buddhism, Thai govt/council, Thai culture ...

[bina]

girlx, have u thought that by prolonging their life with food, they will suffer later since they will not have a home???/ there are more ways to look at any one thing with animals as well as with people (i work with animals and havediscussions with my thai worker about euthenizing on more then one occasion ... any animal we have had that is sick and i want to 'put down', they just put in a box/cage whatever and feed and water, even hand feeding, even when i know its useless cause the animal will die... sometimes they just release it (saying "issala" freedom) then the animal has a choice to live or die (or be eaten)...

i have had to rethink a lot of my philosophy on life with this one....

like people say, dont become angry but try to see more then one aspect... i admit, spaying etc is the best solution to the dog problem but the feeding and caring... well, u cant save the whole world either...

the jews have a saying: u save one person (or animal for that matter) and u've saved a world (meaning of course the power of procreation: sperm/ovaries etc)... so u save one life, ok... but not everyone can save everything just cause u want them to do so...

so either ignore, or adopt, or help where u can but dont expect someone else to go by your own personal rules...

[girlx]

yes well i did not post because i wanted to BLAME someone as mr. nice guy up there keeps insisting, or because i really want to force someone to have the same views as i do. i simply wanted to learn about their perspective so i could understand a bit more where they are coming from. i get it now, but i don't particularly accept it. but to each his own and i will continue to care for the dogs myself as much as i can until someone else with a similar sense of morality can take over.

how could anyone deny these little guys?

[sbk]

Have you ever spent any amount of time at a Wat? I have and I can tell you that even I, owner of 5 dogs, quickly learned that it is impossible to help them all, there are too many. Can you imagine what it must be like to be constantly surround by dogs, fighting, screwing, yelping, howling?

When I was in University the town I lived in was besieged by crazy homeless beggars (thanks Ronald Reagan). These people were beyond pathetic and were everywhere. At first, I felt disgusted, then sad, then angry, then numb.

"Compassion fatigue" is a very good way to put it. After a while, you learn to look the other way.

[Abandon]

yeah, right on there sbk. Don't forget crapping and having more pups.

[girlx]

my dogs never crap within sight of me, and after i spay/neuter them (when they get old enough) they won't be having pups. so it sort of depends on how you look at it.

[sbk]

I am referring to the sometimes dozens of dogs that can be dumped at the Wat. It is nearly impossible for the monks to control them all. Esp when the females are in heat.

The din is amazing, the sadness overwhelming. Male dogs fighting, small dogs being killed or maimed by the larger ones.

The abbot at the Wat in Ban Tai went so far at one time to make a speech at a funeral telling people to bear responsibility for their own animals. Too bad it didn't slow the dumping down. However, now that PAC sterilizes the animals at the Ban Tai wat it is much better now.

I suggest that you talk PAC into coming over to TNP sooner, rather than later. It is a very difficult journey for them to make seeing as they have no car, so perhaps you could be proactive by finding a place for them to operate and finding a taxi for them.

[elfe]

I am referring to the sometimes dozens of dogs that can be dumped at the Wat.  It is nearly impossible for the monks to control them all. Esp when the females are in heat.

The din is amazing, the sadness overwhelming.  Male dogs fighting, small dogs being killed or maimed by the larger ones.

The abbot at the Wat in Ban Tai went so far at one time to make a speech at a funeral telling people to bear responsibility for their own animals. Too bad it didn't slow the dumping down. However, now that PAC sterilizes the animals at the Ban Tai wat it is much better now.

I suggest that you talk PAC into coming over to TNP sooner, rather than later. It is a very difficult journey for them to make seeing as they have no car, so perhaps you could be proactive by finding a place for them to operate and finding a taxi for them.

agreed.

girlx, if you want the puppies being taken care of you have to do it by yourself, not put the duty on others.

here in samui at the dog shelter lots of puppies are being dumped, sometimes litters of 10 or more. they are too many and also die in the shelter due to diseases they are exposed to there and they cannot eradicate there. even with enough food they die, and sometimes not quickly..... when i saw that it made me so sad that i took all the puppies in. it was hard work to raise them and make them healthy but now they are adorable and of course i could not give them away anymore (if there were new homes which aren't). these ones were lucky and stay with me forever but at the shelter and also at all the wats every day new puppy litters are being dumped. what would happen if you take care of all these puppies, there aren't enough homes and food for everyone of them... efforts are being made to sterilize as many dogs as possible but they are still far too many. for myself, i cannot go to the shelter anymore and see dogs suffering and dying, also i cannot take more dogs. so i just take care of mine and hope that there are more people out there who would do the same

also i wished that more vets came here to neuter the dogs while on holiday or so.

[h90]

Wats are not animal care facilities.  Monks are not in the business of taking care of stray dogs necessarily.  In Thailand there are more abandoned animals than there are people to take care of them....monks included.  If monks accepted the duty of caring for abandoned dogs as a regular service then they would soon have no time or resources for anything else.

I believe that there are also Buddhist reasons why monks do not care for abandoned dogs but I am not familiar enough with the Buddhist Suttas to know about this and I hope someone who is more familiar with these will answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"have no time or resources for anything else." What else exactly? As long as I know they are not doing anything....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are striving towards their salvation. Why else would they become monks? The Vatican isn't one big dog's home. Why should Thai monasteries be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are not speaking here about the Vatican, or?

If they can not invest 2 min per day to feed that small dogs, maybe they should also change all their other policies. Why not eat meat, why not have girlfriends, why not going in the bar for some drinks....

For no time to give the food, because you are too busy with striving towards your salvation and killing life with that, can not be right in buddhist religion (as well not in other religions).

[chownah]

Wats are not animal care facilities.  Monks are not in the business of taking care of stray dogs necessarily.  In Thailand there are more abandoned animals than there are people to take care of them....monks included.  If monks accepted the duty of caring for abandoned dogs as a regular service then they would soon have no time or resources for anything else.

I believe that there are also Buddhist reasons why monks do not care for abandoned dogs but I am not familiar enough with the Buddhist Suttas to know about this and I hope someone who is more familiar with these will answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"have no time or resources for anything else." What else exactly? As long as I know they are not doing anything....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are striving towards their salvation. Why else would they become monks? The Vatican isn't one big dog's home. Why should Thai monasteries be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are not speaking here about the Vatican, or?

If they can not invest 2 min per day to feed that small dogs, maybe they should also change all their other policies. Why not eat meat, why not have girlfriends, why not going in the bar for some drinks....

For no time to give the food, because you are too busy with striving towards your salvation and killing life with that, can not be right in buddhist religion (as well not in other religions).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monks can eat meat. The Buddha ate meat. Monks are not supposed to kill life...not even mosquitos. I think if you want to know what is right in Buddhism then the best thing is to study a bit about Buddhism to learn its viewpoint. Reading a fragmented converstion about some dogs at a wat is not a good way to really learn about Buddhism.

[h90]

asking my staff 5 people, they are all telling me that monks are not allowed to eat meat. But you are right, I don't know very much about buddhism.

But anyway not giving a food which is there, just needed to open the box is in my western eyes not far away from activly killing.

And even it might be OK for buddhist religion, which I can not tell if or if not.

As human beeing (and not as monk) this guy is an ######.

Wats are not animal care facilities.  Monks are not in the business of taking care of stray dogs necessarily.  In Thailand there are more abandoned animals than there are people to take care of them....monks included.  If monks accepted the duty of caring for abandoned dogs as a regular service then they would soon have no time or resources for anything else.

I believe that there are also Buddhist reasons why monks do not care for abandoned dogs but I am not familiar enough with the Buddhist Suttas to know about this and I hope someone who is more familiar with these will answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"have no time or resources for anything else." What else exactly? As long as I know they are not doing anything....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are striving towards their salvation. Why else would they become monks? The Vatican isn't one big dog's home. Why should Thai monasteries be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are not speaking here about the Vatican, or?

If they can not invest 2 min per day to feed that small dogs, maybe they should also change all their other policies. Why not eat meat, why not have girlfriends, why not going in the bar for some drinks....

For no time to give the food, because you are too busy with striving towards your salvation and killing life with that, can not be right in buddhist religion (as well not in other religions).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monks can eat meat. The Buddha ate meat. Monks are not supposed to kill life...not even mosquitos. I think if you want to know what is right in Buddhism then the best thing is to study a bit about Buddhism to learn its viewpoint. Reading a fragmented converstion about some dogs at a wat is not a good way to really learn about Buddhism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[sbk]

Well, then your staff are incorrect. Monks can eat meat.

And until you can live this man's life you are not the person to judge him, are you?

[Guest endure]

asking my staff 5 people, they are all telling me that monks are not allowed to eat meat. But you are right, I don't know very much about buddhism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monks eat what the laity offer them. If that includes meat, then that's what they eat.

[Guest endure]

my dogs never crap within sight of me, and after i spay/neuter them (when they get old enough) they won't be having pups. so it sort of depends on how you look at it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So where do they crap then? In other people's gardens? How's that for responsible dog ownership.

[girlx]

there is an entire jungle behind my house- no gardens in this village.

And until you can live this man's life you are not the person to judge him, are you?

i feel justified in judging him. he had a chance to ease suffering and he did not. all of you people telling me to take care of the dogs myself, i am, like i mentioned... however that is not the point. the point is i don't see any justification through the application of any philosophy whatsoever for passively witnessing suffering when you have an easy way to prevent it at hand. end of story. i just hope this monk does not represent the majority of buddhists.

[girlx]

by the way an i think related post:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=0entry591908

do you think it's silly to worry about these doggie woggies too?

[sbk]

A customer of ours came back from Laos a few months back and said she didn't like the place. I was quite surprised because most people have a very good time. She said that the first day she was there she saw some Lao men drag a dog into the river and beat it to death, then take it off to cook and eat. They believe, apparently, that the adrenalin the dog experiences as its dying makes the meat more tender. Horrible, certainly. but, it is part of their culture. I am sure they would find aspects of our culture equally horrifying.

Something to bear in mind when standing in judgement of others.

[Guest endure]

there is an entire jungle behind my house- no gardens in this village.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But is it your jungle? Or are you just allowing your dog to crap on other people's land because it's easier than taking responsibility for the dog's habits yourself?

[sabaijai]

i just hope this monk does not represent the majority of buddhists.

The way in which you initiated this thread suggests you hope otherwise. And again, I suspect you know the answer to your own question.

[girlx]

i just hope this monk does not represent the majority of buddhists.

The way in which you initiated this thread suggests you hope otherwise. And again, I suspect you know the answer to your own question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

kindly do not put words or intentions in my mouth. i can furnish them for you. i posted to get an idea of what is the buddhist philosophy applied to this situation. i did not receive any information that seemed to justify the monk's inaction. i did not "hope" that all buddhists look at the situation in the same way. i simply have not been convinced otherwise. where else would i go for information on the buddhist perspective than on a forum called "buddhism"?

[girlx]

Horrible, certainly. but, it is part of their culture. I am sure they would find aspects of our culture equally horrifying.

Something to bear in mind when standing in judgement of others.

it is someone's culture to mutilate the clitoris of their young women. it is someone's culture to refuse education to their young women. it is someone's culture to beat someone to death for stealing. etc. etc. the "it's their culture" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. as the world progresses, it is hopeful that some of the more horrifying cultural traits will be recognized for what they are and changed.

[chownah]

I guess if the OP would like to get a Buddhist perspective on this issue and does not feel that the Buddhist perspective on this issue has been found here, I suggest that the OP find some introductory level text on Buddhism or even go and talk to the monk whose action (or inaction) has prompted the OP's interest in Buddhist philosophy. I think it is good that the OP has developed an interest in Buddhist philosophy and I hope that the OP will find a good source of information to help in understanding the Buddhist philosophy better.

[sabaijai]

I guess if the OP would like to get a Buddhist perspective on this issue and does not feel that the Buddhist perspective on this issue has been found here, I suggest that the OP find some introductory level text on Buddhism or even go and talk to the monk whose action (or inaction) has prompted the OP's interest in Buddhist philosophy.  I think it is good that the OP has developed an interest in Buddhist philosophy and I hope that the OP will find a good source of information to help in understanding the Buddhist philosophy better.

It's what several here have suggested all along, talk to the monk, find out if it's Buddhism or the individual.

If girlx does reach into books on Buddhism, she might want to investigate the concept of upaya kusala (in Paili, or upaya kausalya in Sanskrit), 'skilful means'. Here's a link:

upaya kusala

Girlx, as far as guessing intentions go, weren't you making presumptions about the monk when you wrote:

how can a monk let small animals starve to death in front of him when he has a big bag of (free) food handed to him to help them with? what kind of monk is this?

[longway]

there is an entire jungle behind my house- no gardens in this village.

And until you can live this man's life you are not the person to judge him, are you?

i feel justified in judging him. he had a chance to ease suffering and he did not. all of you people telling me to take care of the dogs myself, i am, like i mentioned... however that is not the point. the point is i don't see any justification through the application of any philosophy whatsoever for passively witnessing suffering when you have an easy way to prevent it at hand. end of story. i just hope this monk does not represent the majority of buddhists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what does letting a litter of pups starve to death have to do with buddhism?

do you go on a christian forum and wonder if the majority of cathoilcs are child molesting paedophiles?

i feel there is a sub text to your posts and i think you need to be honest about what you are thinking, to yourself at least. for me if i had to sum up what buddism is all about with one word, i would use the the word honesty.

be honest about yourself and see the world around for what it is, dont expect the world to conform to your standards. if you want things to change you have to faciliate the change yourself.

more than one person has suggested you speak to the monk, why dont you do so? the answer to your question lies with him.

[Richard W]

Well, then your staff are incorrect. Monks can eat meat. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And anyone who says otherwise is a heretic? Doesn't the Santi Asoke sect say that monks can't eat meat?

There is a rule that monks should not permit animals to be killed solely for the purpose of feeding them. That leaves plenty of room for casuistry. There was a thread on this topic some time back - Fodd that Monk Eats.