Monks Taking Care Of Discarded Pets

[sbk]

Well, then your staff are incorrect. Monks can eat meat. 

And anyone who says otherwise is a heretic? Doesn't the Santi Asoke sect say that monks can't eat meat?

There is a rule that monks should not permit animals to be killed solely for the purpose of feeding them. That leaves plenty of room for casuistry. There was a thread on this topic some time back - Fodd that Monk Eats.

That wasn't the point of the reply and you know it. Shall we try to remain back on topic about what it is in Buddhism that permits the neglect of animals? Or what it is about westerners that misunderstand the basic tenets of Buddhism and suffering?

[sabaijai]

And anyone who says otherwise is a heretic? Doesn't the Santi Asoke sect say that monks can't eat meat?

According to the Theravada orthodoxy throughout Asia (not just Thailand), yes the Santi Asoke sect is heretic and their policy of vegetarianism for monks is considered a misinterpretation of the Vinaya Pitaka.

Perhaps girlx could gather up the pups and deliver them to the nerest Santi Asoke centre.

[girlx]

Girlx, as far as guessing intentions go, weren't you making presumptions about the monk

yes totally, about the monk, but not about the whole of buddhists as you insinuated...

thanks for the reading suggestions though, i will check them out. i would probably ask the monk sometime too but i don't want to wake him up. he has fed the puppies sometime within the last week though, as i saw there was a little food left in a bowl.

what does letting a litter of pups starve to death have to do with buddhism?

er, it doesn't. like i said though this is a monk and they are supposed to live by certain principles. i am not entirely sure what those are, so i came to get information on buddhism and it's precepts to hopefully explain why a monk would behave in such a way.

or as SBK says:

Or what it is about westerners that misunderstand the basic tenets of Buddhism and suffering?

[camerata]

er, it doesn't. like i said though this is a monk and they are supposed to live by certain principles. i am not entirely sure what those are, so i came to get information on buddhism and it's precepts to hopefully explain why a monk would behave in such a way.

or as SBK says:

Or what it is about westerners that misunderstand the basic tenets of Buddhism and suffering?

I think you're missing the point a bit here. A lot of farang seem to expect every Thai to be a perfect Buddhist or, in this case, expect every monk to be a perfect Buddhist. There is nothing wrong with Buddhism at all. As Ajahn Chah would say, "Those aren't Buddhists doing those things, those are people doing those things!" Obviously, the Buddha didn't teach anyone to let puppies starve.

We tend to think of Christian monks as extremely serious and dedicated Christians, but it isn't the same situation in Thailand. Here, losers become monks as an escape from life, poor kids become monks because they have no other opportunities in life, young men become monks to make merit for deceased parents and old men become monks because they don't want to be a burden to their families. There are all types of men in the monkhood who wouldn't qualify as serious practitioners - at least not by our high standards.

So it's kind of a waste of time wondering what it is in Buddhism that permits monks to read porno mags, enjoy walking in shopping malls, sell amulets... or ignore cute little puppies. You won't find the answer in any book.

But if you want to know what Thai Buddhism was like before it got twisted around due to the threat of colonialism in the late 1800s, read The Buddha in the Jungle. One of the stories in the book is about a monk (I think it was Aj. To) who posessed so much metta that wild birds used to sit on the side of his alms bowl and share his food as he ate.

[kat]

Horrible, certainly. but, it is part of their culture. I am sure they would find aspects of our culture equally horrifying.

Something to bear in mind when standing in judgement of others.

it is someone's culture to mutilate the clitoris of their young women. it is someone's culture to refuse education to their young women. it is someone's culture to beat someone to death for stealing. etc. etc. the "it's their culture" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. as the world progresses, it is hopeful that some of the more horrifying cultural traits will be recognized for what they are and changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent point, girlx. Why is it that issues that Westerners have no problem dissecting, discussing or debating elsewhere suddenly become sacrosanct when it pertains to Thailand or Buddhism?

I guess if the OP would like to get a Buddhist perspective on this issue and does not feel that the Buddhist perspective on this issue has been found here, I suggest that the OP find some introductory level text on Buddhism or even go and talk to the monk whose action (or inaction) has prompted the OP's interest in Buddhist philosophy.  I think it is good that the OP has developed an interest in Buddhist philosophy and I hope that the OP will find a good source of information to help in understanding the Buddhist philosophy better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a point well-taken, however I can tell you as a researcher that half the time I try to discuss things that I have learned about history or religion with locals and they almost always don't know what I'm talking about. Theories and life are two different things.

I agree mostly with Camerata's post above. I interviewed several monks and spent a lot of time in monasteries when I first came to Thailand for a research project. Camerata is spot on in his description of the vast majority of men who become monks. I can also tell you that most of the time, I observed most of the monks napping or sleeping through the afternoon (well, they do have to get up extremely early), smoking, and watching television. Some of the more serious-minded pursue higher learning of some sort (one of my monk friends studied accounting). NONE of them could answer any of my questions about the meaning or rationale behind some of the major tenets of Buddhism without asking someone. My friend was one of the good ones - he actually accompanied me to visit some political prisoners that were locked up in an immigration prision. Of course, that came to an end when the abbot told him to stop because some of them might "possibly" be "involved" with drugs. This wasn't a fact mind you, nor would it have pertained to most, but the monk was asked to stop visiting political prisoners.

Actually, if you are half alert you will find news columns by Thais themselves who question the state of Buddhism here, and discuss the "ivory tower" and self-absorbed nature of Thai Buddhism and the *Sangha. You can also find historical accounts of Thais questioning the undisciplined nature of Thai Buddhism a century ago.

There are a lot of things we don't understand, and I like to question things I don't understand. It is a matter of not taking anything for granted here, in my own country, or anywhere.

*edit

Edited December 27, 2005 by kat

[sbk]

Horrible, certainly. but, it is part of their culture. I am sure they would find aspects of our culture equally horrifying.

Something to bear in mind when standing in judgement of others.

it is someone's culture to mutilate the clitoris of their young women. it is someone's culture to refuse education to their young women. it is someone's culture to beat someone to death for stealing. etc. etc. the "it's their culture" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. as the world progresses, it is hopeful that some of the more horrifying cultural traits will be recognized for what they are and changed.

Excellent point, girlx. Why is it that issues that Westerners have no problem dissecting, discussing or debating elsewhere suddenly become sacrosanct when it pertains to Thailand or Buddhism?

You both misunderstood the point of my post. I pointed out that while we find certain behaviors apalling in this culture they just might find behaviors of ours just as appalling and it is our (both westerners and Thais) lack of understanding between different cultures that causes problems.

I object to your insinuation that by suggesting a behavior is cultural that I am supporting it. You need to face the fact that every culture deals with things in a different way, whether you approve of that way or not.

[kat]

SBK, I have no problem with facts. I have a problem with people who take it upon themselves to decide for others which facts are worthy of facing or not.

And by the way, I was responding to the board in general, not you. I wasn't even thinking of your post when I replied.

[Abandon]

These evil New Zealanders where I stayed recently. They came around our land and poisened the rabbits! The rabbits did not even need feeding - they look after themselves. What did the rabbits do wrong to get gassed in their burrows? No Buddhist monk would have done this!

This proves what bunk Christianity is.

[chownah]

Sorry

Edited December 28, 2005 by chownah

[girlx]

These evil New Zealanders where I stayed recently. They came around our land and poisened the rabbits! The rabbits did not even need feeding - they look after themselves. What did the rabbits do wrong to get gassed in their burrows? No Buddhist monk would have done this!

This proves what bunk Christianity is.

you have totally missed my point. i am not trying to say anything at all about buddhism. i was simply wondering how it applied to this situation.

[sabaijai]

These evil New Zealanders where I stayed recently. They came around our land and poisened the rabbits! The rabbits did not even need feeding - they look after themselves. What did the rabbits do wrong to get gassed in their burrows? No Buddhist monk would have done this!

This proves what bunk Christianity is.

you have totally missed my point. i am not trying to say anything at all about buddhism. i was simply wondering how it applied to this situation.

Did you look into the link on skilful means I provided? Although I think the gist of the matter here is the personal ethics or intentions of the particular monk involved (and we have no idea what these may be), if you're wondering how Buddhist principles might apply, then upaya-kusala is the place to look.

To boil it down to a few words, upaya is about seeing the long-range consequences of one's actions and prioritising. As someone else suggested, the consequences of feeding those pups in the monastery may have more negative effects in the long run than letting them follow the course of nature like other wild animals. I'd imagine, for example, that people living next to or near the monastery would be happier with fewer dogs living at the monastery. Certainly those living in the monastery would.

On a related tack, I have to wonder whether dogs should be able to look after themselves or whether they must have humans care for them in order to exist. The soi dogs in my neighbourhood in Chiang Mai have no problem finding enough to eat, and no one feeds them. I think this is the point Abandon is trying to make. Are these dogs pets or wild animals?

To bring the topic around to your own ethics with regard to this situation: Is keeping unwanted dogs alive more important than keeping the peace at the monastery?

In many countries, stray dogs are put down if no one claims them. In Mexico, where I once lived, the army made a sweep through our neighbourhood about every six or eight months, picked up all dogs found roaming the streets without collars, and disposed of them. This was considered an act for the greater public good, one which every person living there supported (as far as I know).

In Thailand most Buddhists won't put down stray dogs, ailing dogs, etc. They believe it's better to let the animals live out their lives in the ripeness of their own karma/vipaka. For people from societies where dogs are regularly 'put down' it may seem inhumane, but it's the way it is.

It's possible the idea comes from a pre-Buddhist, possibly animistic, era wherein the ethic is not to interfere in another's life force, except in self-defence.

I personally don't believe there are any 'universal values' that can be applied to the dog situation, other than upaya-kusala. We may agree on issues like female circumcision, even abortion, but I don't think there will ever be agreement on how to deal with stray/unwanted dogs.

[chownah]

These evil New Zealanders where I stayed recently. They came around our land and poisened the rabbits! The rabbits did not even need feeding - they look after themselves. What did the rabbits do wrong to get gassed in their burrows? No Buddhist monk would have done this!

This proves what bunk Christianity is.

you have totally missed my point. i am not trying to say anything at all about buddhism. i was simply wondering how it applied to this situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you feel that you have learned how Buddhism applies then?

[seville]

In Thailand most Buddhists won't put down stray dogs, ailing dogs, etc. They believe it's better to let the animals live out their lives in the ripeness of their own karma/vipaka. For people from societies where dogs are regularly 'put down' it may seem inhumane, but it's the way it is.

Well on KPN, the powers that be have been known to put out food laced with possion in it and let both Strays, Pets and other animals die a painful death.

A bullet to the head makes a lot more sense to me.

PAC is doing great things and there is a Vet on Koh Samui who will spay a dog for about 1,200 baht. You can get it done cheaper at Pac, but sometimes they are really booked up.

What a few of us have started to do on Had Tien is try and get all the female dogs fixed. TNP is much bigger, but if you go around and ask people to donate towards getting certain dogs fixed, it's a start. Tryin to get the dog breeding at Central Cottage to stop would be the first place I'd go.

[Abandon]

In fact Sabai Jai - my point was that there is a cultural perception involved - that NZers see bunnies as vermin and something to be gassed in the burrow. And that Christianity has nothing to do with it. Thereby echoing what you and sbk have been suggesting that it is a cultural perception and not a universal one of campassion that girlx is trying to present.

Good post btw

PS the temple next to my flat have a team come round maybe twice a year to steralise cats and dogs. It has no effect on the numbers though in my opinion

[sabaijai]

In fact Sabai Jai - my point was that there is a cultural perception involved - that NZers see bunnies as vermin and something to be gassed in the burrow. And that Christianity has nothing to do with it. Thereby echoing what you and sbk have been suggesting that it is a cultural perception and not a universal one of campassion that girlx is trying to present.

Good post btw

PS the temple next to my flat have a team come round maybe twice a year to steralise cats and dogs. It has no effect on the numbers though in my opinion

I should have phrased it: Are these dogs pets, wild animals or vermin?