Natural Gas Aircon?

[Pseudolus]

Someone reminded me the other day that you can actually get natural gas powered air con. These units chuck out cold air, can heat water, even heat the house, cool water - the whole shabang as far as I am concerned.

Apart from the practicalities of converting one to run on bottled gas (was exploring for my potential move up north by the way) has anyone actually come across one in Thailand before?

http://www.ecplaza.net/trade-leads-seller/air-cooled-heat-pump-chiller--4488490.html

http://www.ecplaza.net/trade-leads-seller/air-cooled-water-chiller--7090431.html

This is an example of some.

My theory being that gas is a lot cheaper than electricity; plus you can have one system that does anything you want (even potentially have a walk in cool room / larder if you set it up right.

[Crossy]

Things to think about.

You can do all that with an electrically powered A/C (heat pump) and will find hundreds of suppliers in Thailand.

You don't tend to run out of electricity and need to get more delivered.

I've not seen a domestic sized gas-fired heat pump (here or anywhere else for that matter), but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

A big (45kg) LPG bottle contains about the same energy as 630 units (kWh) of electricity, I don't know how efficient absorption heat pumps are but they are likely to be less efficient than electrically powered units.

That said, if you have a ready supply of LPG and are in an area with poor electrical power they could be a viable option.

[David006]

bloody hell...Crossie ..got me googling here ...your right..next to SFA about propane or CNG air con.

.....ah well open window, a fan, a wet towel and a coldie works for me...

Some sites talked about charging aircon with propane instead of reg refrigerants...scary....

[Naam]

bloody hell...Crossie ..got me googling here ...your right..next to SFA about propane or CNG air con.

.....ah well open window, a fan, a wet towel and a coldie works for me...

Some sites talked about charging aircon with propane instead of reg refrigerants...scary....

these are NASA scientists who are in charge that rockets explode shortly after take-off.

[Naam]

I've not seen a domestic sized gas-fired heat pump (here or anywhere else for that matter), but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

cooling only, fridges for campers and RVs. never heard of gas powered reverse cycle units but technically they are not a problem to manufacture. personally i think it's easier to find a dozen virgins (age 18-25) in Pattaya's Walking Street than a gas-powered heat pump in Thailand.

let's wish the OP good luck for his quest to find one.

[Crossy]

I'm glad Naam popped up, he's the unofficial TV Aircon guru

Anyway, I've done a little more research into the efficiency of absorption heat pumps. I've not found efficiency data for a unit intended for cooling, but i do have same for a unit intended for heating.

An electrically powered heat pump will provide cooling of about 3 times it's electrical input, so for 1kW of electricity you get about 3kW (10,000 BTU) of cooling.

An absorption heat pump is a lot less efficient, the units I've found so far provide cooling of about 0.6 times the power input, so for 1kW of gas you get 0.6 kW (2,100 BTU) of cooling.

So we need about 5 times the energy from gas to provide the same cooling.

LPG in Thailand costs about 1.6 Baht for an equivalent of 1kWh of electricity, mains electricity costs about 4 Baht per kWh.

So, assuming I've done the sums right, for our 10,000 BTU we need, about 4 Baht of electricity or about 8 Baht of gas per hour.

[Pseudolus]

oh - i was making the assumption that Gas was cheaper that electricity. What if it could generate electricity as well though?

"The system also provides hot water and generates its own electricity – which can be used in buildings for lighting and other services."

http://www.lpgasmagazine.co.uk/lpg-powered-air-conditioning-system-world%E2%80%99s-first

[Crossy]

That Sanyo system uses an LPG capable vehicle engine to drive a regular A/C compressor and an alternator to make electricity, a different principle to the units we have been discussing which produce cooling by using the heat from burning the LPG in an absorption heat pump.

I have never come across a small scale CHP (Combined Heat and Power) system that comes close to being cost effective when mains electricity is available, the efficiency of a full size power station is just too good. The exception is when the fuel is free or very low cost, for example bio-gas from landfill or your pig farm effluent.

LPG is cheaper on a per unit basis, it's the reduced efficiency of converting that potential energy content into something useful that kills the costings.

[Pseudolus]

They also work combined with solar as the heat source, which I believe the government will subsidise? So if that were right not only would the usage cost be significantly less, you might also be able to sell back to the grid if that happens in Thailand

As for data on cooling (which I think is better than heating because the waste heat from cooling is reused as part of the cooling process; thus more efficient) here is a firm with the stats. You seem to know more about these crazy numbers than I do ....

http://www.robur.com/products/pro-solutions/pro-ga-line-acf-rtcf-series-tk-ht-lb-version/technical-form.html

[Naam]

They also work combined with solar as the heat source, which I believe the government will subsidise? So if that were right not only would the usage cost be significantly less, you might also be able to sell back to the grid if that happens in Thailand.

please check appropriate box Pseudolus

▒ i have a master's degree in applied physics, but still like to pull legs.

▒ i have a master's degree in applied physics and like to pull legs because i'm quite bored.

▒ i don't have a master's degree in applied physics but i'd like to explore high-tech gadgets which i think can save me a bundle of money.

▒ i will continue reading the internet and post links which depict revolutionary technology i am planning to install up north in my future home and achieve a fair return on investment in less than 347 years.

▒ i will slowly turn up the heat and ask questions which sooner or later will drive Crossy nucking futs and cause Naam beat up his wife.

[Pseudolus]

LOL

"i don't have a master's degree in applied physics but i'd like to explore high-tech gadgets which i think can save me a bundle of money"

I am not taking the piss - seriously.

I've not heard of this before, and seeing the that this is something that claims to do a lot of things (cool house, heat water, cool water...), and can be combined with Solar as well, I thought someone must have heard of them before in this esteemed board.

Hope the current Mrs Naam is feeling better...

[Naam]

Hope the current Mrs Naam is feeling better...

she left Thailand day before yesterday and is out of reach and safe in her home country

[Naam]

You seem to know more about these crazy numbers than I do...

Pseudolus,

let me first draw your attention that the unit you are talking about is a "chiller" which, according to demand, generates either cold water for cooling or hot water for heating. a chiller is the core of a cooling (in rare cases heating) system which requires a number of individual electrically driven fancoil indoor units which cool/heat the air. to accomplish this they are fed by a piping system connected to the core unit. the indoor units are equipped with either solenoid or motor valves triggered by the setting of a thermostat.

seven years ago, when i built my house in Thailand, i planned to set up a similar cooling system. not with a gas powered but a water cooled core using my deep well. based on the low water temperature (~18ºC) of my well i estimated an electric energy saving of min 60% which would have worked out to ~THB 55,000 per annum.

total setup cost would have been much cheaper and the efficiency much higher than the cost and efficiency of the 17 conventional aircon units installed in the main house. alas, no such thing like finding a contractor (main problem was communication) who would have had to do nothing but follow the blueprints i had worked out.

in a way it was a blessing in disguise because i did not take into consideration the ups and downs of the grid supply, i.e. a brown-out or complete failure of one of the phases. the planned rated capacity of the core unit was 12 tons / 144,000 btu/h which made a three-phase supply mandatory. one phase brown-out would have meant cooling capacity zero. of course there would have been a way to replace the 3-phase core with 3 single-phase units spread over the incoming three phases providing chilled water for some selected indoor units.

[necronx99]

Maybe you should look at design principles and passive cooling aiming to be comfortable in nature rather than refridgerated.

[Naam]

Maybe you should look at design principles and passive cooling aiming to be comfortable in nature rather than refridgerated.

that's mostly done by tree huggers who have wet dreams. there is no way to achieve a lasting and comfortable temperature of max 26-27ºC in a tropical country like Thailand when the ambient temperature is higher. period!

of course there are dozens of postings in ThaiVisa with claims that the laws of physics can be bent or even be completely circumvented. most of the time they make a knowledgeable person smile but in rare cases also the blood boil when another TV-memer who seeks proper advice is plainly bullshitted by false claims.

[necronx99]

Maybe you should look at design principles and passive cooling aiming to be comfortable in nature rather than refridgerated.

that's mostly done by tree huggers who have wet dreams. there is no way to achieve a lasting and comfortable temperature of max 26-27ºC in a tropical country like Thailand when the ambient temperature is higher. period!

of course there are dozens of postings in ThaiVisa with claims that the laws of physics can be bent or even be completely circumvented. most of the time they make a knowledgeable person smile but in rare cases also the blood boil when another TV-memer who seeks proper advice is plainly bullshitted by false claims.

It doesn't match aircon and requires some aclimatisation but there are many things you can do with design to make the house cooler and more comfotable to live in. Not taking advantage of these principles when you design your house is just silly. Nothing worse than being stuck in a hot sweaty box when the power goes out. I've spent the last 20 years in the tropics and we only use Air in the bedroom during the wet season. Other rooms have them, we just don't need them.

I appreciate that your natural Klingon tendancies lead you to combat nature and beat it to a pulp with 17 aircon units but getting along with it does have some advantages.

[Pseudolus]

Maybe you should look at design principles and passive cooling aiming to be comfortable in nature rather than refridgerated.

that's mostly done by tree huggers who have wet dreams. there is no way to achieve a lasting and comfortable temperature of max 26-27ºC in a tropical country like Thailand when the ambient temperature is higher. period!

Firstly, yes there is.Roman house design especially in north Africa (Carthage,Egypt...) used a simple tool of having a large pool of water in the middle of the house and an open skylight at the top; water would evaporate and drift upwards to the skylight creating a cooling effect. A damp cooling effect, butcool it did. It's just not very practical though nowadays and was not cold, but certainly made life more habitable.

Secondly, I am not talking about a chiller unit; on commercial scales these systems are being used all over the place to cool complete office buildings most notably in Australia and the USA. China is at the forefront of this now due to their shale gas assets they have in production so it is a technology that is in use. They cool water (done at the same time as cooling air) and they heat water as well. The complete package not least because one unit allows you to control the temp in different zones of a residential house without needing a standard aircon in each

Are you seriously telling me that if there was a way for the Government to subsidise solar for your house, and one of these machines could take that and turn it into free aircon, hot water, and maybe cold water as well (plunge pool anyone?) you would be interested in the slightest?

Also, in Europe, ambient cooling is becoming the norm in new builds (like underfloor heating except with cold pipes) and this system could easily manage this process as well?

Not trying to mess with your brain at all, although I do feel it's like trying to tell the flat earth society and if you sail past New Zealand you won't necessarily fall off the edge of the world. Consider also that on those irritating times when the power cuts out, your house at least keeps nice and cool as you play cards by candle light.

Edit - more fuel for the fire (so's to speak) .... http://www.originenergy.com.au/2965/Gas-air-conditioning

Edited March 28, 2012 by Pseudolus

[Naam]

Firstly, yes there is.Roman house design especially in north Africa (Carthage,Egypt...) used a simple tool of having a large pool of water in the middle of the house and an open skylight at the top; water would evaporate and drift upwards to the skylight creating a cooling effect. A damp cooling effect, butcool it did. It's just not very practical though nowadays and was not cold, but certainly made life more habitable.

yeah, yeah, yeah! it works perfectly in areas with extremely low relative humidity but not in a country like Thailand where, when cooling is needed, rel hum is nearly always above 60%. to create a certain air flow that causes evaporation cooling of standing as you described a strong "chimney" setup is required. in ancient Persia they build "tower" houses to generate that effect.

[Naam]

Are you seriously telling me that if there was a way for the Government to subsidise solar for your house, and one of these machines could take that and turn it into free aircon, hot water, and maybe cold water as well (plunge pool anyone?) you would be interested in the slightest?

on paper that way does already exist! but do you seriously think that in your and my life time we would be able to collect a single Satang for these kind of efforts?

[Naam]

Secondly, I am not talking about a chiller unit; on commercial scales these systems are being used all over the place to cool complete office buildings most notably in Australia and the USA.

please no bullshitting or boring me to death Pseudo! i have no wife to beat up and i love my dogs dearly.

the link/website you posted shows and describes a chiller manufactured by an Italian company. moreover, even a "chiller" can be used for heating purposes when the system has been manufactured for reverse cycle action. this information is free of charge, you don't have to pay me.

[Naam]

China is at the forefront of this now due to their shale gas assets they have in production so it is a technology that is in use. They cool water (done at the same time as cooling air) and they heat water as well. The complete package not least because one unit allows you to control the temp in different zones of a residential house without needing a standard aircon in each.

now waiting patiently for you to tell me that "two plus two equals four" and that 3kg of beef simmered 3hrs in 3l of water will result in 1l of excellent beef broth.

[Naam]

It doesn't match aircon and requires some aclimatisation but there are many things you can do with design to make the house cooler and more comfotable to live in. Not taking advantage of these principles when you design your house is just silly. Nothing worse than being stuck in a hot sweaty box when the power goes out. I've spent the last 20 years in the tropics and we only use Air in the bedroom during the wet season. Other rooms have them, we just don't need them.

I appreciate that your natural Klingon tendancies lead you to combat nature and beat it to a pulp with 17 aircon units but getting along with it does have some advantages.

another one who is trying to tell me that "two plus two equals four". please get some sleep people! when you wake up and your brains are able to digest simple information i will tell you how a physicist cum mech.eng. who lived and worked more than half of his life in tropical countries (where he was in charge building industrial complexes) has designed and built his energy efficient home by maximised use whatever resources (material, trained manpower) a third world country like Thailand is able to provide... zat is iff yew are abel to oonderstund my tchermann enklish vhich my vife klaims is krude oond lacks proper krammar.

do you both agree or yes?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Naam

[Gary A]

I have a brother in law who is very intelligent. He works for a major oil company and he is a chemical engineer. He built a huge home in Ohio, USA. He had a ditching machine working on his property and had rows of trenches dug everywhere. The plumbing and trenching cost him big money but he told me exactly how long the pay back would be. Nearly everyone laughed at him but his heating and cooling bills eventually convinced everyone that he knew what he was doing. His heat pumps are amazingly efficient. It has been relatively maintenance free. Of course the electricity supply is reliable.

It has been so successful that when the small town built a new school, they had engineers study his plans and used the same methods to heat and cool the entire school. It works like a charm. Apparently the water temperature in his buried pipes stays nearly the same year round.

[Naam]

He had a ditching machine working on his property and had rows of trenches dug everywhere.

for that kind of high efficiency heatpump cooling/heating the required land should be approximately 15 times the size of the home because of the minimum spacing between the pipes. zero land is required if a deep well provides enough flow/volume from which heat can be extracted or used as condenser cooling medium. in my case (as mentioned above) the 18ºC water would have more than doubled the rated cooling capacity (and slashed energy cost more than half) compared to an aircooled unit.

[Pseudolus]

Secondly, I am not talking about a chiller unit; on commercial scales these systems are being used all over the place to cool complete office buildings most notably in Australia and the USA.

please no bullshitting or boring me to death Pseudo! i have no wife to beat up and i love my dogs dearly.

the link/website you posted shows and describes a chiller manufactured by an Italian company. moreover, even a "chiller" can be used for heating purposes when the system has been manufactured for reverse cycle action. this information is free of charge, you don't have to pay me.

This is the link I was referring to. Australian oil and gas operator with Japanese systems.

http://www.originenergy.com.au/2965/Gas-air-conditioning

I did post it before, but I guess you did not see it in your rush to continue the DIY cock swinging contest you seem intent on having.

As stated, regardless of your vast experience and knowledge, I know some of the boys at Origin on the M&A side and they would not hve bought into this stuff if it did not work.

[Crossy]

Looking at the Yanmar catalogue.

The smallest outdoor unit YNMP140G1 (14kW cooling), uses 11.8kW of propane. An equivalent electrically powered unit would use about 4.6kW of electricity.

So the gas unit uses about 2.5 times the energy of the electric unit. As long as gas is 2.5 times cheaper than electricity then you score.

Thai electricity is about 4 Baht per kWh, Thai LPG is about 1.6 Baht per kWh equivalent, exactly 2.5 times cheaper. So running cost will be almost the same.

The 14kW unit (47,000 BTU) will use a large (45kg) LPG bottle in 53 hours of continuous running. Probably a week of normal operation.

Considering the running cost is comparable with electricity it could be a viable option for those with large homes and poor power supply. Assuming the equipment cost is reasonable.

EDIT I note that these units are not absorption heat pumps, they use a gas engine to drive a compressor just like the Sanyo unit in an earlier post, so they cannot use solar to supplement their energy supply.

EDIT 2 Yanmar in Thailand

Sojitz Thailand Corporation

3rd Floor,Thanlya Bldg.

62 Silom Rd, Bangkok

TEL:+66-2-236-9139

FAX:+66-2-236-3527

Yanmar S.P.Co.,Ltd.

Lad Krabang Industrial

Estate 109,Moo 9,Chalong

Krung Road

Lad Krabang, Bangkok

TEL:+66-2-326-0700/-7

FAX:+66-2-326-0709

[Pseudolus]

Awesome post

So how about adding in the cost of say 4 x 10 minute hot showers per day? better score? Also, these units still use some power and I assume that can be replaced with a solar set up? Score again?

Also, if they can run on LPG, they might also run on diesel / heating fuel as well - cheaper still?

If carbon footprint was behind this, and not cost, then surely it is win win?

By the way, I checked out the yanmar place already. They only do generators etc here. Maybe with your skill you can build me one ?

[Naam]

Also, if they can run on LPG, they might also run on diesel / heating fuel as well - cheaper still?

= fair conclusion: you neither possess a master's in physics, nor a degree in mech. engineering. what is your professional background? politician or investment banker?

[Pseudolus]

Also, if they can run on LPG, they might also run on diesel / heating fuel as well - cheaper still?

= fair conclusion: you neither possess a master's in physics, nor a degree in mech. engineering. what is your professional background? politician or investment banker?

Lyrical gangster

.......and no, I am not a teacher. I have just realised though that LPG is much cheaper than Diesel, so forgive my one singular lapse in concentration on this thread.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Pseudolus

[Pacificperson]

Naam, how deep do you have to go to get 18ºC water in the Pattaya area?