Us Bank Account For Non-us Citizen

[ChiangMaiThai]

For $39 this guy will tell you how to legally open a US bank account within about 2 weeks without a SS number and without a US mailing address. Is this for real or just another scam?

http://www.swiss-bank.biz/usbank/

[poorfarang]

You started a conversation in 1 thread - then took 2 replies from that thread and turned them each into seperate new threads.

[TRIPxCORE]

Why would one desire a U.S. Bank account anyway? Whats the big deal?

[OldAsiaHand]

Why would one desire a U.S. Bank account anyway?  Whats the big deal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well now, that response sets a high standard for stupidity. Let's see if the rest of the thread can live up to it.

To the original poster: it's a scam. American banks require tax payer ID numbers for new accounts without exception. For an individual, that means a social security number.

[poorfarang]

Yea, I smell something fishy going on with that deal.

I did however just open another us bank account from the interenet while here in Thailand. I am American but I was just surprised it could all be done from here.

[ChiangMaiThai]

You started a conversation in 1 thread - then took 2 replies from that thread and turned them each into seperate new threads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Umm.... Okay... And what? Not everyone who has an answer is going to read the original thread.

[Sumitr Man]

If I remember rightly, as a non-US citizen, what they'll likely tell you to do is establish a company in somehwere like Delaware (sp?) and use the company account.

SM

[Butterfly]

It's now illegal for non-US resident to have an account in the US. Oh yeah, that will stop terrorism

Another brillant idea from the Patriot Act

[OldAsiaHand]

No, of course it isn't illegal. As I said above, you just have to apply for and provide a tax payer ID number, either for your business or as individual depending on how the account is held. What's wrong with that?

[Heng]

How do foreign students do it then?

[Sumitr Man]

^ now you're just getting personal Heng

[Veritas]

Why would one desire a U.S. Bank account anyway?  Whats the big deal?

Well now, that response sets a high standard for stupidity. Let's see if the rest of the thread can live up to it.

So are you going to enlighten us on why anyone would want a US bank account?

Perhaps I need one and don't know what I'm missing

Veritas

[Crossy]

Why would one desire a U.S. Bank account anyway?  Whats the big deal?

Well now, that response sets a high standard for stupidity. Let's see if the rest of the thread can live up to it.

So are you going to enlighten us on why anyone would want a US bank account?

Perhaps I need one and don't know what I'm missing

Veritas

Perhaps to operate a Thai PayPal account, which appears to need a US bank account if you want to get at your money.

[Gary A]

It's now illegal for non-US resident to have an account in the US. Oh yeah, that will stop terrorism 

Another brillant idea from the Patriot Act 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ed Betancourt, the Director of the State Department Office of Policy Review, has researched the problem with various government departments and has given overseas Americans and U.S. banks a clear statement of principle in this regard.

The State Department has drafted a form letter which clearly explains how U.S. banks should treat accounts linked to a foreign address. The State Department has offered to provide a signed copy (via fax if so desired) to any U.S. Citizen who would like to have one.

The name of the requesting individual will be indicated as the addressee in the letter. This person can then present this letter from the State Department to the individuals or financial institutions with which they may be having difficulty opening an account. The State Department has learned that this letter has already been of great help in a number of cases.

To request a signed copy of the letter you will need to write to the Legal Advisor, Office of the Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs, Department of State, Washington D.C. 20520

The text of State Department letter is as follows:

Dear (name of citizen concerned),

This letter is in response to the concern you expressed regarding the PATRIOT Act and your access to banking in the United States. The Department of State has been contacted by numerous individuals alleging that, under the PATRIOT Act, their U.S. bank accounts have been closed or that they have been prohibited from opening an account due to foreign citizenship or a foreign address. The U.S.A. PATRIOT Act does not prohibit foreign citizens or individuals with foreign residences from opening or maintaining a U.S. bank account. Such activity is done frequently and is necessary in a global economy.

Notably, however, the PATRIOT Act does require financial institutions to complete enhanced security procedures in certain circumstances. For example, under Section 326 of the Act, financial institutions must implement reasonable procedures for (1) verifying the identity of any person seeking to open an account; (2) maintaining records of the information used to verify the person's identity, and (3) determining whether the person appears on any list of known or suspected terrorists or terrorist organizations. In addition, foreign individuals are generally required to provide a government issued number that is similar to a social security number.

Enhanced due diligence is also required under Section 312, which requires financial institutions to take reasonable steps to determine the owner and the source of funds deposited into private banking accounts that financial institutions maintain for non-U.S. persons and conduct enhanced scrutiny of such accounts maintained for senior political figures.

In developing their customer identification procedures under Section 326 or in the enhanced due diligence procedure under Section 312, a financial institution may request information of a customer that had not been previously solicited. However, the PATRIOT Act does not prohibit foreign persons or those with foreign addresses to open or maintain bank accounts in the United States. Please feel free to present this letter to your bank, should you face any difficulties with interpretation of the PATRIOT Act. If you have further questions, you may address them to (information will be provided by the State Department)

[OldAsiaHand]

How do foreign students do it then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They apply for (and receive) a tax payer ID number. It's really not a big deal and anyone can do it. The ID comes in the form of what looks like a social security card, but the card is overprinted 'Not Valid for Employment.'

The original poster here was inquiring about opening an account in the US without either a social security number or a tax payer ID number. Ever since then the thread has degenerated into confusion over whether a visitor to the US can or cannot open a bank account. The answer is yes, but proper ID (essentially the same as a US citizen is required to have) is still needed.

[Heng]

How do foreign students do it then?

They apply for (and receive) a tax payer ID number. It's really not a big deal and anyone can do it. The ID comes in the form of what looks like a social security card, but the card is overprinted 'Not Valid for Employment.'

The original poster here was inquiring about opening an account in the US without either a social security number or a tax payer ID number. Ever since then the thread has degenerated into confusion over whether a visitor to the US can or cannot open a bank account. The answer is yes, but proper ID (essentially the same as a US citizen is required to have) is still needed.

Thanks OAH. One more thing I know now. Surely not "anyone" can do it though, yes? Surely you can't be a tourist and apply for a 'Not Valid for Employment' tax payer id number?

[Butterfly]

How do foreign students do it then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They apply for (and receive) a tax payer ID number. It's really not a big deal and anyone can do it. The ID comes in the form of what looks like a social security card, but the card is overprinted 'Not Valid for Employment.'

The original poster here was inquiring about opening an account in the US without either a social security number or a tax payer ID number. Ever since then the thread has degenerated into confusion over whether a visitor to the US can or cannot open a bank account. The answer is yes, but proper ID (essentially the same as a US citizen is required to have) is still needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A social security id is NOT a tax payer ID. You are the one being confused here. Tax payers do require a social security ID to pay their taxes though.

They don't apply for a tax id, they apply for a social security number, that's how they can open the account.

If you are a foreigner, you have absolutely no reason to request a social security number, and plus you will not get one as a non-US resident and foreigner national not living in the US.

And yes the Patriot Act and the Bush administration have put pressure on US banks to close down foreigner national accounts. I know this for a fact. My private banker of 15 years asked me to shutdown all my accounts in the US because they received some "memos" from the US treasury specifically threatening bankers of liabilities if they failed to shutdown foreigner national accounts. There was a crackdown on non-US accounts last year and I was told by my good friend, and private banker, to have my money transfer outside in the US.

So much for a global economy

One set rule for the US, another set of rules for the others. This is how the US play their games.

[Butterfly]

However, the PATRIOT Act does not prohibit foreign persons or those with foreign addresses to open or maintain bank accounts in the United States. Please feel free to present this letter to your bank, should you face any difficulties with interpretation of the PATRIOT Act. If you have further questions, you may address them to (information will be provided by the State Department)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please give me a break

They make it impossible. That's the problem. They don't forbid you but they make sure they make it impossible with the paperwork requirements. This is how it works these days. Not forbidding anything just making it impossible. It's surreal. It's Orwellian and that's how they control everything. Paperwork. It's useless. Is this the kind of society we want ?

[Butterfly]

This what happened when banks don't listen to the US treasury

ABN Amro to Pay $80 Million Fine Over Iran, Libya

Federal authorities fined Dutch bank ABN Amro Holding NV $80 million, one of the largest banking fines in U.S. history, for violating U.S. money-laundering laws and sanctions against Iran and Libya. (See the Fed's announcement.)

The move, by the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Treasury department financial crime- and sanctions-control units, came in response to nearly a decade of violations involving billions of dollars in transactions that passed through the bank's offices in New York and Dubai, United Arab Emirates. The U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York is investigating the matter, people familiar with the case said.

The bank, which agreed to the fine, brought many of the violations to the attention of regulators after discovering them in internal investigations. "ABN Amro recognizes that mistakes were made. We accept the sanctions and express our regret," said ABN Amro's spokesman, Steven Blaney. "We have already instituted corrective and disciplinary measures."

In Dubai, the bank's employees falsified numerous wire-transfer records to hide the identities of Iranian and Libyan companies and individuals sending money to the U.S. to purchase U.S. goods, according to case documents and interviews. The bank's senior management didn't appear to have been aware of the scheme, people familiar with the matter said.

During the period of the violations, Iran and Libya were considered state supporters of terrorism by Washington, which bars U.S. citizens and any company operating within the U.S. from doing business with companies from those countries. Sanctions against Libya were relaxed last year. In New York, in one year alone from mid-2002 to 2003, the bank cleared some $3.2 billion in transfers from small banks in Eastern Europe to shell companies in the U.S. that ABN Amro had little information about, and many of which are suspected of being used for criminal activity, the Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network said.

The regulators found ABN Amro failed to monitor its transactions for suspicious activity, neglected to report suspicious incidents, failed to investigate the backgrounds of its customers, and "overstated" the quality of its controls to regulators. In March of this year, ABN Amro Chairman Rijkman Groenink warned the bank's 100,000 employees in an email that its compliance shortcomings had become "a serious threat to our future." ABN Amro has since undertaken one of the most ambitious compliance efforts ever attempted by a bank, spending more than $250 million annually to retrain its staff, realign its management structure, and strengthen technological safeguards.

Among the bank's clients was a Swiss bank called the Bank of New York Inter-Maritime, which until earlier this year was an affiliate of the Bank of New York and did considerable business in Russia. BONY Inter-Maritime played a prominent role in a similar money-laundering scandal involving suspicious transactions from Eastern European banks through the Bank of New of York in 1999 and 2000. The Inter-Maritime unit was never charged with any crimes.

After it could no longer move funds through BONY, Inter-Maritime went to ABN Amro. A 2001 Senate report devoted an entire 62-page case history to the possible connections of BONY Inter-Maritime and owner Bruce Rappaport to several alleged fraud schemes as well as drug-money laundering. Mr. Rappaport hasn't been charged with any crime.

Executives and a lawyer for Inter-Maritime and Mr. Rappaport didn't respond to requests for comment.

ABN Amro, headquartered in Amsterdam, is the world's 20th-largest bank with $830 billion in assets and 3,000 branches in 60 countries. Its primary regulator, De Nederlandsche Bank NV, joined the U.S. disciplinary action, as did New York and Illinois state regulators.

The ABN Amro disclosures follow recent cases at Arab Bank PLC and the former Riggs National Corp., each of which were fined $25 million by regulators for failing to report suspicious transactions. Riggs also pleaded guilty to criminal violations of laws requiring the reporting of suspicious transactions, and paid a $16 million criminal fine. Arab Bank remains under criminal investigation, according to law-enforcement officials.

After Sept. 11, 2001, the U.S. Treasury took the position that banks handling transactions in U.S. currency for foreign banks had to step up their scrutiny of potential criminal activity, in order to avoid opening a back door to the U.S. financial system. Many banks handling such transactions were slow to respond. In the last year, regulators have been conducting a major crackdown and the Fed alone has imposed restrictions on Deutsche Bank, Standard Chartered PLC, Banco de Chile and a host of smaller banks for alleged money-laundering violations.

Many of the Iran sanctions violations involved Bank Melli, an Iranian government bank that used ABN Amro's Dubai office to disguise its role in wire transfers and letters of credit, the agencies said. A guard at the Bank Melli office in Dubai, reached by phone, said the bank was closed and executives couldn't be reached.

People familiar with the matter said that the violations by ABN Amro's Dubai office were uncovered by the bank itself in a 2004 internal review. The scheme involved using the wrong paperwork to document wire transfers, according to interviews with bank executives and others with knowledge of the matter. Instead of filling out a form to document a company-to-company or person-to-person transfer that would result in disclosing Iranian or Libyan connections, the Dubai office sent a separate form intended to document routine bank-to-bank wire transfers. Last month, four longtime employees of the Dubai office were fired, ABN Amro executives said.

"These were systematic procedures designed to evade U.S. sanctions," said Robert Werner, director of Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control. "That kind of thing we're just not going to tolerate."

Source: WSJ

Edited December 20, 2005 by Butterfly

[Gary A]

I don't have an address in the US. My US bank has my Thai address and they have not questioned anything. I have my pension checks deposited in my US bank and I wire transfer money a couple times a year because the bank charges $1.50 plus 1% per ATM transaction. The wire transfer costs $30 regardless of the amount wired.

Added:

I am in the process of getting my Thai wife an individual taxpayer identification number. It requires filling out a US form W-7. I have to have that in order to be able to file a joint US tax return.

Please give me a break

They make it impossible. That's the problem. They don't forbid you but they make sure they make it impossible with the paperwork requirements. This is how it works these days. Not forbidding anything just making it impossible. It's surreal. It's Orwellian and that's how they control everything. Paperwork. It's useless. Is this the kind of society we want ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited December 20, 2005 by Gary A

[Butterfly]

I don't have an address in the US. My US bank has my Thai address and they have not questioned anything. I have my pension checks deposited in my US bank and I wire transfer money a couple times a year because the bank charges $1.50 plus 1% per ATM transaction. The wire transfer costs $30 regardless of the amount wired. 

It's a question of time before they shut you down. Unless you have a social security number on that account, they will shut you down. It will take a while to shutdown every foreigners with no social security, but they will. Start moving your money elsewhere before they send you a cheque with a letter of termination.

[Carmine6]

How do foreign students do it then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They apply for (and receive) a tax payer ID number. It's really not a big deal and anyone can do it. The ID comes in the form of what looks like a social security card, but the card is overprinted 'Not Valid for Employment.'

The original poster here was inquiring about opening an account in the US without either a social security number or a tax payer ID number. Ever since then the thread has degenerated into confusion over whether a visitor to the US can or cannot open a bank account. The answer is yes, but proper ID (essentially the same as a US citizen is required to have) is still needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A social security id is NOT a tax payer ID. You are the one being confused here. Tax payers do require a social security ID to pay their taxes though.

They don't apply for a tax id, they apply for a social security number, that's how they can open the account.

If you are a foreigner, you have absolutely no reason to request a social security number, and plus you will not get one as a non-US resident and foreigner national not living in the US.

And yes the Patriot Act and the Bush administration have put pressure on US banks to close down foreigner national accounts. I know this for a fact. My private banker of 15 years asked me to shutdown all my accounts in the US because they received some "memos" from the US treasury specifically threatening bankers of liabilities if they failed to shutdown foreigner national accounts. There was a crackdown on non-US accounts last year and I was told by my good friend, and private banker, to have my money transfer outside in the US.

So much for a global economy

One set rule for the US, another set of rules for the others. This is how the US play their games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've misread the post. It doesn't say a Social Security number is a tax id number. It says the card looks like a Social Security card. These are both 9 digit numbers.

An individual who is not eligible for a Social Security number (which includes foreign nationals as you noted) would request an Individual Tax ID Number (ITIN) from the IRS. Then, with a valid picture id, they could open a bank account. That's not any different from what it takes a US citizen to open an account so I don't see how that's a different set of rules for others.

Your bank chose to get extreme in it's requirements, but that's the bank's choice, not the law. Some banks overdo their requirments for public relations reasons. I guarantee there are banks who will open accounts with just the required information.

[Carmine6]

... I am in the process of getting my Thai wife an individual taxpayer identification number. It requires filling out a US form W-7. I have to have that in order to be able to file a joint US tax return...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for mentioning this or I wouldn't have known. I thought it'd take a full Social Security number to start filing a joint return.

[Carmine6]

For $39 this guy will tell you how to legally open a US bank account within about 2 weeks without a SS number and without a US mailing address. Is this for real or just another scam?

http://www.swiss-bank.biz/usbank/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on info on the website, I did a stock search for NYSE listed banks in the $4 Billion to $12 Billion market cap range and you end up with 7 US banks. There aren't any close to the $7.2 billion market cap he mentions. By the way, that isn't that big a bank in the US.

I used the description of his account to try to pick out which banks might be the one, but could eliminate only 3. The others didn't have enough info on the websites. The accounts that I could find with Visa Platinum ATM cards, as opposed to regular Visa ATM cards required large balances or had large monthly fees. Same goes for free checks.

I know some of the Texas banks towards the border with Mexico used to be more creative in what documents they required, so it's not impossible for there to be the account described. This was true in some of the more rural smaller banks too. Might not be true anymore.

But if it does exist, I think the monthly fee would be pretty high for those features. He doesn't mention the monthly fee.

Here is the list of banks in case anyone needs to try. If the bank was recently bought or merged, it wouldn't be on this list.

Amsouth Bancorp

Comerica

Synovus Financial

TD Banknorth

These banks didn't appear to be the one described:

Union Bank - Mastercard, not Visa ATM cards

Commerce Bank - $35 wire transfer fee instead of $25

Marshall & Isley - $35 wire transfer fee instead of $25

[ChiangMaiThai]

Why would one desire a U.S. Bank account anyway?  Whats the big deal?

Well now, that response sets a high standard for stupidity. Let's see if the rest of the thread can live up to it.

So are you going to enlighten us on why anyone would want a US bank account?

Perhaps I need one and don't know what I'm missing

Veritas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For instance, if a Thai person opens a PayPal account. They get paid and then they can't withdraw to a Thai bank account- US bank account only.

[ChiangMaiThai]

How do foreign students do it then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They apply for (and receive) a tax payer ID number. It's really not a big deal and anyone can do it. The ID comes in the form of what looks like a social security card, but the card is overprinted 'Not Valid for Employment.'

The original poster here was inquiring about opening an account in the US without either a social security number or a tax payer ID number. Ever since then the thread has degenerated into confusion over whether a visitor to the US can or cannot open a bank account. The answer is yes, but proper ID (essentially the same as a US citizen is required to have) is still needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A social security id is NOT a tax payer ID. You are the one being confused here. Tax payers do require a social security ID to pay their taxes though.

They don't apply for a tax id, they apply for a social security number, that's how they can open the account.

If you are a foreigner, you have absolutely no reason to request a social security number, and plus you will not get one as a non-US resident and foreigner national not living in the US.

And yes the Patriot Act and the Bush administration have put pressure on US banks to close down foreigner national accounts. I know this for a fact. My private banker of 15 years asked me to shutdown all my accounts in the US because they received some "memos" from the US treasury specifically threatening bankers of liabilities if they failed to shutdown foreigner national accounts. There was a crackdown on non-US accounts last year and I was told by my good friend, and private banker, to have my money transfer outside in the US.

So much for a global economy

One set rule for the US, another set of rules for the others. This is how the US play their games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you've misread the post. It doesn't say a Social Security number is a tax id number. It says the card looks like a Social Security card. These are both 9 digit numbers.

An individual who is not eligible for a Social Security number (which includes foreign nationals as you noted) would request an Individual Tax ID Number (ITIN) from the IRS. Then, with a valid picture id, they could open a bank account. That's not any different from what it takes a US citizen to open an account so I don't see how that's a different set of rules for others.

Your bank chose to get extreme in it's requirements, but that's the bank's choice, not the law. Some banks overdo their requirments for public relations reasons. I guarantee there are banks who will open accounts with just the required information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even is a foreigner can get a EIN, which I'm not 100% sure about, the standard procedure is that you show up in person. We're talking about opening an accoutn sight unseen. From the site of this guy in Malaysia, he doesn't seem to be talking about EIN and he did it all without going to the US...

[Butterfly]

It's very suspicious that you could go open an account without showing up. I think this guy site is a scam.

[BKK90210]

Even is a foreigner can get a EIN, which I'm not 100% sure about, the standard procedure is that you show up in person. We're talking about opening an accoutn sight unseen. From the site of this guy in Malaysia, he doesn't seem to be talking about EIN and he did it all without going to the US...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm in the US and have my own engineering business. Here this is how it works

In order to open an account in the US bank

For individual account......

1) You must be a US citizen,or having a green card (permanent or non-permanent status), or other IRS tax ID ....it doen't matter if you live inside or outside the country....however most banks will not send the statements/ATM card outside the country.

2) Have a picture ID (normally they would want a current driver license)

3) SSN card

As for the issue of SSN (social security number)

There are 2 types of SSN card,

1) The regular one (be able to work) and

2) The other with the "non-employment stamp" on the back (most foreign students have this type)

For Business account.....any foriegners can open the account if they have the followings...US documents

1) US - EIN (employer identification numbers) a.k.a - tax ID number

2) A copy of State business license - in the state where you filed/ or incorporate your business + A copy of the Article of Incorporation

3) A copy of City Master of business license - in the city you're planning to operate

Hope this help

I don't see how you can open the account without showing up at the bank....

Unless you have given the "power of attorney" to your attorney (in case of business account).....

But for the indidual - you must show up in person!

Edited December 21, 2005 by BKK90210

[Carmine6]

Even is a foreigner can get a EIN, which I'm not 100% sure about, the standard procedure is that you show up in person. We're talking about opening an accoutn sight unseen. From the site of this guy in Malaysia, he doesn't seem to be talking about EIN and he did it all without going to the US...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The more I look at this, the more I think it may be ETrade Bank. From what I've seen on application forms, brokerages seem to be more willing to open accounts without tax id numbers. ETrade Bank is a subsidiary of ETrade Financial which is mainly an online brokerage.

The check looked familiar but I couldn't place it. I had an account several years ago but can't find the checkbook or I'd know for sure. The blacked out part above the date on the check is where I think the E*Trade logo is. Bank account checks don't generally have anything above the date, but I remember an E*Trade logo on their checks.

The other info seems to match up, $7.9 billion current market cap for the parent company, and NYSE traded. $25 wire transfers and Visa Platinum ATM card. No monthly fee with a $1,000 balance. The reason they might be ok without you phyically going in, is they don't really rely on branches. They have them, but since they started as an online brokerage, they did business for years without the person being present.

The 50 check first order was also strange. Banks give you 150 or 200 checks in the first order. But brokerages normally give 25 or 50 in the first order.

Someone who needs an account may want to try contacting these folks directly.

For those interested:

An Employer Id Number (EIN) is for companies. Foreign companies who have workers in the US or pay taxes in the US need one.

An Idividual Tax Id Number (ITIN) is specifically for foreign nationals and others who aren't eligible for a Social Security number, but who need one for tax purposes. So basically only foreign nationals will get get them. But, you have to have some financial tie to the US to be eligible, or a need such as a foreign exchange student needing a bank account.

[Carmine6]

I don't see how you can open the account without showing up at the bank....

Unless you have given the "power of attorney" to your attorney (in case of business account).....

But for the indidual - you must show up in person!

Until 6 months ago I would have completely agreed with you. But then I opened a Citibank account entirely online. No visit to a branch, no photocopy of my SS card or driver license. I was astounded that I didn't have to go in. They did pull a credit report to double check the info and then called me to verify the phone number, but that's it. I suprisingly used a free e-mail account as the contact e-mail and use this account to wire transfer out of the country. As long as everything checks out, it seems they'll do this.

Looking back, I also opened accounts with USAA FSB by mail, and ING online. And all my brokerage accounts have been through the mail or online without copies of ids. Those accounts have checkwriting and ATM cards.

One bank did ask for a copy of my driver license and a utility bill, but that's been 1 bank out of more than a dozen financial companies.

So while it's going to be harder for a foreign national to do this, it might not be impossible.