Was Buddha A Prophet?

[seedy]

I do not consider Buddhism a religion at all.

It is my path to self-awareness and ultimately enlightenment.

Religions are a much more public-based belief system.

[rockyysdt]

[i think this is referred to as Buddhist Cosmology.

From Access to Insight;

It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or simply fanciful metaphors that describe the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly from one state to another, with true peace and satisfaction forever out of reach. The Buddha's revolutionary discovery came in finding that there is a way to break free: the

Noble Eightfold Path

, which equips us with precisely the tools we need to escape from this wearisome wandering, once and for all, to a

true and unshakeable freedom

.

Agreed Bruce, with the exception that those who cling to cosmology as reality can cling to the notion of stream entry/multiple chances (lives) at achieving the goal.

This can easily produce obstacles (excuses) which impede or stop ones progress (something we are all guilty of).

Edited April 20, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

[i think this is referred to as Buddhist Cosmology.

From Access to Insight;

It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or simply fanciful metaphors that describe the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly from one state to another, with true peace and satisfaction forever out of reach. The Buddha's revolutionary discovery came in finding that there is a way to break free: the

Noble Eightfold Path

, which equips us with precisely the tools we need to escape from this wearisome wandering, once and for all, to a

true and unshakeable freedom

.

Agreed Bruce, with the exception that those who cling to cosmology as reality can cling to the notion of stream entry/multiple chances (lives) at achieving the goal.

This can easily produce obstacles (excuses) which impede or stop ones progress (something we are all guilty of).

Well.... I wonder who that barbed remark was aimed at.....implying that those who have views different from you are 'clinging'....as if they are only blindly believing in something to prevent them falling into some unknown state...

I teach the Theravada Buddhist understanding of cosmology to my students because it is very useful to have an understanding of the big picture....IMHO.

It is very useful to our practice if we understand........

1. the nature of Samsara.

2. how long we have been stuck in Samsara by our ignorance of the truth (since the infinite past).

3. how rare and precious human rebirth is.

4. how rare and precious do Buddhas appear.

5. therefore how rare and precious the opportunity to be born human ....and...to meet a Buddhas teachings.

6. how fortunate to have been born and have to opportunity to choose our own religion....be in a position to be able to study and practice and find support when we want to do those things.....many humans alive now do not have the opportunity to meet the Buddhas dhamma or the freedom to practice and study its teachings.

7. how...if we put into practice the teachings about the eightfold path...especially practicing Vipassna....we get the chance to escape Samsara and therefore all future suffering...within a very few lives.

8. If we turn away from the path, or find the practice too difficult and give up, then nobody will condemn us to hell or anything....but since we are then still stuck in Samsara...we could be another lifetime...or another billion aeons...before we get the chance again.

All this is to help people realise what a wonderful prescious opportunity they have...now...and hope that when the practice gets difficult....as it does....they do not give up but persevere...knowing that this opportunty doesn't come often. It is to encourage people to practice.

Once the Buddha bent down and picked up some dirt on his thumbnail. Turning to his companions he asked them 'how do you compare this snall amount of dirt...with the whole Earth??' Naturally they said....'oh it is not possible to compare them...there is not the tiniest fraction....'

The Buddha then said...' this small amount of dirt compares with the number of beings in the human realm....whilst the whole Earth compares to the number of beings in the four lower realms...the realms of misery and suffering....'

An indication of how rare and prescious human rebirth is...and how easy to fall into the lower realms...escape from which is difficult and one can remain for a very long time...

A spur.....an encouragement to us...to make us want to practice...to want to escape this cycle of rebith in Samsara..

[huli]

[i think this is referred to as Buddhist Cosmology.

From Access to Insight;

It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or simply fanciful metaphors that describe the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly from one state to another, with true peace and satisfaction forever out of reach. The Buddha's revolutionary discovery came in finding that there is a way to break free: the

Noble Eightfold Path

, which equips us with precisely the tools we need to escape from this wearisome wandering, once and for all, to a

true and unshakeable freedom

.

Agreed Bruce, with the exception that those who cling to cosmology as reality can cling to the notion of stream entry/multiple chances (lives) at achieving the goal.

This can easily produce obstacles (excuses) which impede or stop ones progress (something we are all guilty of).

to believe in the "notion of stream entry" and multiple lives strikes me as quite orthodox in a Buddhist Forum. The "notion" that these beliefs easily produce "obstacles to progress" seems a lot more of a stretch, but, of course, each his own.

The viewpoint on Cosmology quoted by Brucenkhamen seems altogether reasonable to me. Take it or leave it, get some ideas from it, ponder it, whatever, it's not the heart of the matter anyway.

[rockyysdt]

Well.... I wonder who that barbed remark was aimed at.....implying that those who have views different from you are 'clinging'....as if they are only blindly believing in something to prevent them falling into some unknown state...

Please believe me when I say, this remark was aimed at myself and not you.

It was also an attempt at sharing my experience and thoughts.

I was referring to myself and my personal aversions which I'm attempting to come to terms with.

Humans, from my personal experience, can assume others are having to deal with the same issues.

Upon reflection we all have our own mix of aversions, delusions, & greed.

I teach the Theravada Buddhist understanding of cosmology to my students because it is very useful to have an understanding of the big picture....IMHO.

It is very useful to our practice if we understand........

1. the nature of Samsara.

2. how long we have been stuck in Samsara by our ignorance of the truth (since the infinite past).

3. how rare and precious human rebirth is.

4. how rare and precious do Buddhas appear.

5. therefore how rare and precious the opportunity to be born human ....and...to meet a Buddhas teachings.

6. how fortunate to have been born and have to opportunity to choose our own religion....be in a position to be able to study and practice and find support when we want to do those things.....many humans alive now do not have the opportunity to meet the Buddhas dhamma or the freedom to practice and study its teachings.

7. how...if we put into practice the teachings about the eightfold path...especially practicing Vipassna....we get the chance to escape Samsara and therefore all future suffering...within a very few lives.

8. If we turn away from the path, or find the practice too difficult and give up, then nobody will condemn us to hell or anything....but since we are then still stuck in Samsara...we could be another lifetime...or another billion aeons...before we get the chance again.

All this is to help people realise what a wonderful prescious opportunity they have...now...and hope that when the practice gets difficult....as it does....they do not give up but persevere...knowing that this opportunty doesn't come often. It is to encourage people to practice.

Once the Buddha bent down and picked up some dirt on his thumbnail. Turning to his companions he asked them 'how do you compare this snall amount of dirt...with the whole Earth??' Naturally they said....'oh it is not possible to compare them...there is not the tiniest fraction....'

The Buddha then said...' this small amount of dirt compares with the number of beings in the human realm....whilst the whole Earth compares to the number of beings in the four lower realms...the realms of misery and suffering....'

An indication of how rare and prescious human rebirth is...and how easy to fall into the lower realms...escape from which is difficult and one can remain for a very long time...

A spur.....an encouragement to us...to make us want to practice...to want to escape this cycle of rebith in Samsara..

Much of what you say and teach is true.

The area of contention is whether, for each of us, it happens within one lifetime or countless lifetimes.

Whether we become involved in re birth (many lives), or whether re birth is from moment to moment, the rarity of our existence, the time it will take for another Buddha to arise, and the chance to learn of and to practice Dhamma remain extremely rare and precious.

The cosmology side of Buddhism (interpretation) has the hallmarks of a religion:

• Fear (eons of suffering if you fail to embrace it).
  
• Offer of Immortality (via re birth & Enlightenment).
  

Although there are a number of Suttas supporting re birth into many lives, there are also many which paint a very different picture.

In terms of the Buddha being a prophet, I suppose it depends which interpretation we choose.

This one might apply:

a person regarded as an inspired teacher.

Edited April 21, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

In terms of the Buddha being a prophet, I suppose it depends which interpretation we choose.

This one might apply:

a person regarded as an inspired teacher.

I don't think so. What spirit or divine entity entered the Buddha's mind? The prophets in the Abrahamic tradition (Jewish, Muslim and Pauline) did not claim to speak on their own behalf. They were channels of God's will.

The Buddha's teaching proceeded from his personal enlightenment, the outcome of his own analyses, not any inspiration from a source other than his own mind. He was an enlightened teacher rather than an inspired one.

I think "prophetic" inspiration implies more than just being a logical and persuasive, perhaps even charismatic teacher. Indeed, a teacher could have these attributes and still be quite wrong.

[rockyysdt]

I don't think so. What spirit or divine entity entered the Buddha's mind? The prophets in the Abrahamic tradition (Jewish, Muslim and Pauline) did not claim to speak on their own behalf. They were channels of God's will.

The Buddha's teaching proceeded from his personal enlightenment, the outcome of his own analyses, not any inspiration from a source other than his own mind. He was an enlightened teacher rather than an inspired one.

I think "prophetic" inspiration implies more than just being a logical and persuasive, perhaps even charismatic teacher. Indeed, a teacher could have these attributes and still be quite wrong.

Isn't the influence of divinity only one of the definitions?

I refer to the fifth definition of prophet in dictionary.com

a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.

My thought was that great inspiration could come from the fruits of awakening rather than the more commonly viewed source, a divinity.

Inspiration isn't exclusively from a theological source, but can come from stimulation, creativity, enthusiasm, motivation, & illumination, all of which could stem from awakening.

an inspiring or animating action or influence

a thing or person that inspires.

In other words, awakened, the Buddha would have been, at the very least, an inspirational teacher.

Edited April 21, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

Certainly inspirational.

I'd still rather say he was enlightened than inspired. But I don't really mind.

I do cringe a bit though at describing him as prophetic. I don't think there is a prophetic tradition in India, is there?

[huli]

I don't think so. What spirit or divine entity entered the Buddha's mind? The prophets in the Abrahamic tradition (Jewish, Muslim and Pauline) did not claim to speak on their own behalf. They were channels of God's will.

The Buddha's teaching proceeded from his personal enlightenment, the outcome of his own analyses, not any inspiration from a source other than his own mind. He was an enlightened teacher rather than an inspired one.

I think "prophetic" inspiration implies more than just being a logical and persuasive, perhaps even charismatic teacher. Indeed, a teacher could have these attributes and still be quite wrong.

Isn't the influence of divinity only one of the definitions?

I refer to the fifth definition of prophet in dictionary.com

a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.

My thought was that great inspiration could come from the fruits of awakening rather than the more commonly viewed source, a divinity.

Inspiration isn't exclusively from a theological source, but can come from stimulation, creativity, enthusiasm, motivation, & illumination, all of which could stem from awakening.

an inspiring or animating action or influence

a thing or person that inspires.

In other words, awakened, the Buddha would have been, at the very least, an inspirational teacher.

Well, if we are having a serious discussion about whether or not Buddha was a prophet, it all hinges on the definition of prophet. If we now say a prophet is just an inspirational teacher, then, yes, of course he was.

I think it is important to tell when an actual dialogue is turning into a question of semantics.

Edited April 22, 2012 by huli

[rockyysdt]

I don't think so. What spirit or divine entity entered the Buddha's mind? The prophets in the Abrahamic tradition (Jewish, Muslim and Pauline) did not claim to speak on their own behalf. They were channels of God's will.

The Buddha's teaching proceeded from his personal enlightenment, the outcome of his own analyses, not any inspiration from a source other than his own mind. He was an enlightened teacher rather than an inspired one.

I think "prophetic" inspiration implies more than just being a logical and persuasive, perhaps even charismatic teacher. Indeed, a teacher could have these attributes and still be quite wrong.

Isn't the influence of divinity only one of the definitions?

I refer to the fifth definition of prophet in dictionary.com

a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.

My thought was that great inspiration could come from the fruits of awakening rather than the more commonly viewed source, a divinity.

Inspiration isn't exclusively from a theological source, but can come from stimulation, creativity, enthusiasm, motivation, & illumination, all of which could stem from awakening.

an inspiring or animating action or influence

a thing or person that inspires.

In other words, awakened, the Buddha would have been, at the very least, an inspirational teacher.

Well, if we are having a serious discussion about whether or not Buddha was a prophet, it all hinges on the definition of prophet. If we now say a prophet is just an inspirational teacher, then, yes, of course he was.

I think it is important to tell when an actual dialogue is turning into a question of semantics.

Agreed.

If we all hold to the commonly understood meaning of prophet, then, regarding the Buddha, there is no debate.

In small print though, the least common meanings of "prophet" and "inspired" not only may apply but may also result in a different meaning.

This brings me back to a very crucial element of Dhamma, courtesy of one of my annoying attachments (conditioning).

It all comes back to interpretation which can vary considerably due to the influence of time, place, conditioning and culture.

Edited April 22, 2012 by rockyysdt

[lungmi]

http://www.watnyanav...ddha_dhamma.pdf

I'm sorry, but I can't follow any more the discussion about realms, rebirth, Buddha a prophet and so

on. May be. I have to practice. Hard work enough.

Good luck - calm, clean, cool, clear - Tan Buddhadas.

[Jawnie]

The Buddha most definitely had prophetic abilities, if by use of the term means that he could see the future. Buddha is considered to possess the ability to see everything in the past, present, and future. It seems, however, that he did not include specific insights into the future in his sutras so you can't really call him a prophet. Prophecy didn't seem to be something he did publicly or 'on the record.'