Americans Filing Taxes

[mr3cho]

For the Americans filing taxes, if you don't have income or are somehow earning income without a work permit, are you filing with the IRS with $0 income? If you have a relative or friend's address, could you file using their address as your residence?

What I'm trying to get at is, will it be possible for the IRS to know that you are living out of the country? And would they know whether you have income with or without a work permit?

Or please share your situation and how you are filing. Thanks.

[givenall]

You don’t have to file income tax if you don’t have any income, but the only this you have to know is that these day foreign asset is a big things and you have to let them know about your bank account that you are in charge off and has balance of more than $10k at anytime

[ctira]

You HAVE to file tax every year even if you declare $0 income. IRS is getting tougher and more strict every year. If they find out you didn't file income tax things will get ugly---auditing, re-filing on years you didn't file, possible fees, etc. And think of the long term benefit---what if one day you have to move back to the U.S.? Yes, you can use your relative address for your permanent address as long as they are ok with it. Do it. You have couple days left hurry up!

An advice for you speaking from my situation. I work outside the country and I declare income. I get a decent amount of money back from IRS. Along with that I have to pay small amount of local and state taxes. You might want to look into getting an accountant and have things set up for you. Good luck. And don't forget to file!

[Jingthing]

Wrong! You absolutely DO NOT have to file any return whatsoever if you are under the minimum income threshold of needing to file. That amount is available on the IRS website. The other issue is if you are divorced from your old home state. The state threshold won't likely be the same as the federal.

BTW, if you do want to file, simply file for an EXTENSION using taxact.com before APRIL 17 (this year's deadline). They accept foreign addresses for efiling (most online programs don't). An extension extends to time to file, but does not extend the deadline for paying taxes if any owed.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[gregb]

You HAVE to file tax every year even if you declare $0 income.

Wrong. Minimum gross income to file is based on your filing category and age. As an example, the minimum gross income required to file a tax return for a single filer under the age of 65 in 2012 is $9500. If you made less than this, there is no requirement to file a tax return at all.

As for the workpermit, the IRS does not care about Thai rules and whether you have a workpermit. Only that you have properly complied with US reporting requirements. The Thai government does not routinely share data with the US government, but I'm sure would be happy to turn over any records if they were specifically asked. If you are worried about this, you would need to ask yourself if you would be a person of interest to the IRS, and if you think they would actually go to the effort of making a diplomatic request for this information.

There is nothing wrong with using you foreign address on a tax return. There is no reason at all to maintain an address in the US for tax purposes, and as I have found out recently the IRS will even accept checks drawn on foreign banks for payment of your taxes, as long as the check is in USD. (Apparently, there are also circumstances where they will accept a foreign currency check, but they give you a lousy exchange rate for it and charge you a bunch of fees to accept it.)

[gregb]

BTW, if you do want to file. simply file for an EXTENSION using taxact.com. They accept foreign addresses for efiling (most online programs don't). An extension extends to time to file, but does not extend the deadline for paying taxes if any owed.

One thing to note about this. If you are out of the country, you automatically receive a 2 month extension to file, so you do not have to submit your return until June 15th in this case. No paperwork is due, but it does require a note when you submit your return informing the IRS you have elected the automatic extension.

If you owe taxes under this situation, you are relieved of all failure to pay penalties for these two months (currently 0.5% per month). You must still pay interest on the taxes owed for the 2 months. IRS interest is currently about 3% per year, and is compounded daily.

[Jingthing]

Yes but if you file for an extension by 17 April, you get until 15 OCTOBER to file. (Better if you owe no taxes and are a horrible procrastinator like me.)

Edited April 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[gregb]

Yes but if you file for an extension by 17 April, you get until 15 OCTOBER to file. (Better if you owe no taxes and are a horrible procrastinator like me.)

Right. But you DON'T get relieved of the failure to pay penalty under this program. You DO if you take the automatic 2 month extension.

Neither program relieves you of the interest payment on your unpaid taxes.

[Jingthing]

Yes but if you file for an extension by 17 April, you get until 15 OCTOBER to file. (Better if you owe no taxes and are a horrible procrastinator like me.)

Right. But you DON'T get relieved of the failure to pay penalty under this program. You DO if you take the automatic 2 month extension.

Neither program relieves you of the interest payment on your unpaid taxes.

Good information but if you owe no taxes, there's no rush!

[gregb]

Yes but if you file for an extension by 17 April, you get until 15 OCTOBER to file. (Better if you owe no taxes and are a horrible procrastinator like me.)

Right. But you DON'T get relieved of the failure to pay penalty under this program. You DO if you take the automatic 2 month extension.

Neither program relieves you of the interest payment on your unpaid taxes.

Good information but if you owe no taxes, there's no rush!

I envy those who owe no taxes.

[Jingthing]

Keep in mind that each person's tax situation is different. In my case, I am under the income needing to file BUT based on stock market sales it LOOKS like I am not, so I need to file to show them that I don't owe. If I didn't file, they would be after me. Just an example of how you really do need to examine your own situation. One size doesn't fit all.

[givenall]

You get so maney different answers, just like if your were calling IRS hotline

[Jingthing]

You get so maney different answers, just like if your were calling IRS hotline

That's the truth.

[phomsanuk]

Will Thailand extradite you for not filing?

[Jingthing]

Will Thailand extradite you for not filing?

If the IRS thinks you owe 50K in taxes you won't be able to get a new passport ... Edited April 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[chops]

My money is not going to go to that government. Sorry.

Besides, I owe no taxes since I'm a stay at home husband.

[wannascuba]

You must file if you the below applies, form1040ez instructions (google);

Single dependents. Were you either age 65 or older or blind?

No. You must file a return if any of the following apply.

• Your unearned income was over $950.

• Your earned income was over $5,800.

• Your gross income was more than the larger of—

• $950, or

• Your earned income (up to $5,500) plus $300.

Yes. You must file a return if any of the following apply.

• Your unearned income was over $2,400 ($3,850 if 65 or older and blind).

• Your earned income was over $7,250 ($8,700 if 65 or older and blind).

• Your gross income was more than the larger of—

• $2,400 ($3,850 if 65 or older and blind), or

• Your earned income (up to $5,500) plus $1,750 ($3,200 if 65 or older and blind).

Married dependents. Were you either age 65 or older or blind?

No. You must file a return if any of the following apply.

• Your unearned income was over $950.

• Your earned income was over $5,800.

• Your gross income was at least $5 and your spouse files a separate return and itemizes deductions.

• Your gross income was more than the larger of—

• $950, or

• Your earned income (up to $5,500) plus $300.

Yes. You must file a return if any of the following apply.

• Your unearned income was over $2,100 ($3,250 if 65 or older and blind).

• Your earned income was over $6,950 ($8,100 if 65 or older and blind).

• Your gross income was at least $5 and your spouse files a separate return and itemizes deductions.

• Your gross income was more than the larger of—

• $2,100 ($3,250 if 65 or older and blind), or

• Your earned income (up to $5,500) plus $1,450 ($2,600 if 65 or older and blind).

Chart C—Other Situations When You Must File

You must file a return if any of the four conditions below apply for 2011.

1. You owe any special taxes, including any of the following.

a. Alternative minimum tax.

b. Additional tax on a qualified plan, including an individual retirement arrangement (IRA), or other tax-favored account. But if you are

filing a return only because you owe this tax, you can file Form 5329 by itself.

c. Household employment taxes. But if you are filing a return only because you owe this tax, you can file Schedule H by itself.

d. Social security and Medicare tax on tips you did not report to your employer or on wages you received from an employer who did not

withhold these taxes.

e. Recapture of first-time homebuyer credit. See the instructions for line 59b.

f. Write-in taxes, including uncollected social security and Medicare or RRTA tax on tips you reported to your employer or on

group-term life insurance and additional taxes on health savings accounts. See the instructions for line 60.

g. Recapture taxes. See the instructions for line 44 and line 60.

2. You (or your spouse, if filing jointly) received HSA, Archer MSA, or Medicare Advantage MSA distributions.

3. You had net earnings from self-employment of at least $400.

4. You had wages of $108.28 or mor

Hope that helps.......

Important note: Keep in mind, it does NOT matter what country your earned or unearned income was derived from.

[USNret]

Will Thailand extradite you for not filing?

I hope that's a joke. The IRS has both a long arm & a long memory. They can get you the instant you set foot back in country if you've p!ssed them off enough. They might even try to grab your foreign bank account. Check out all the folks with "secret" Swiss accounts which are no longer secret.

[pmarlin]

Will Thailand extradite you for not filing?

If the IRS thinks you owe 50K in taxes you won't be able to get a new passport ...

Not law yet, but maybe soon.

[marinediscoking]

I have a (work permit) but it does not matter and since I am employed by a foreign company I file the 2555-ez form (foreign earned income exclusion) and 1040. You have to be outside the USA a certain number of days to use the form. It exempts income up to about 92K a year. I have zero income from the usa but i still file and my tax owed is zero.

If you are self employed or own your own company here you are subject to paying the same tax as if you were back in the states. I went round and round with my old account and the IRS on this years ago to clarify. The IRS used to send the tax books to my address here but that stopped a couple of years ago for some reason.

Edited April 13, 2012 by marinediscoking

[55Jay]

I smell an original idea here, can't believe I never considered it before.

1. Claim what you earn. WP or not. Your situation, based on your questions, sounds like "Farang in Thailand 101".

2. Use US address? Why? Although you can have a mailing address and a physical address. I do.

3. Of course the IRS can find out if you are in or out of the US if they want to. Think about that one for a minute. Passport at immigration departure. Plane ticket. Thai bank account opened with passport? Credit card use? ATM use from a US bank? If you live under a rock, are totally cash based and/or earn all your money illegally (no work permit) in Thailand, then you have a pretty low radar return.

4. They will never know you earn money under the table locally in Thailand, same if you sold oranges on the side of the road in the US, unless you tell them. It's how much risk you want to assume should you ever get a look. Chance of that happening is pretty slim, but it does exist. Don't get me wrong, I loath paying taxes. I'm an expat for a long time and it pisses me off every year.

[mr3cho]

If you are self employed or own your own company here you are subject to paying the same tax as if you were back in the states. I went round and round with my old account and the IRS on this years ago to clarify. The IRS used to send the tax books to my address here but that stopped a couple of years ago for some reason.

Interesting. However if you are self-employed here, I'm assuming the IRS would have zero insight on that money assuming that you did not establish it as a US business or tax id. If that were the case, I understand you are subject to filing as an upstanding citizen, but aside that why volunteer that info?

[mr3cho]

You HAVE to file tax every year even if you declare $0 income. IRS is getting tougher and more strict every year. If they find out you didn't file income tax things will get ugly---auditing, re-filing on years you didn't file, possible fees, etc. And think of the long term benefit---what if one day you have to move back to the U.S.? Yes, you can use your relative address for your permanent address as long as they are ok with it. Do it. You have couple days left hurry up!

An advice for you speaking from my situation. I work outside the country and I declare income. I get a decent amount of money back from IRS. Along with that I have to pay small amount of local and state taxes. You might want to look into getting an accountant and have things set up for you. Good luck. And don't forget to file!

I went through turbotax and it would not let me file with $0 income. Error says...

Incomplete Tax Return

The tax return is below the minimum filing requirements.

[Jingthing]

Try taxact then. If you feel you want to file or feel you need to that is.

BTW, doing my usual EXTENSION on taxact the program now tells me that for U.S. citizens outside the country and actually FILING the extension, it is only for four months, not six months (15 Oct. as I said before). (People in the U.S., it is still six months.) Is this new?!?

I have been filing extensions for years using my Thai address and then don't file a return until October. Have those been late because I only had a four month extension before?

[mr3cho]

thanks for all of the replies everyone. As you guys stated , everyone's situation is different, so it's confusing. So let me change the question up a bit and get your opinions. Let's say I've filed for the past 15-20 years without major issues and never auditted and now have $0 income, no work permit and no bank account or cc based on my passport or ssn. I don't file for 2011. Would it be more likely that they will let it be and assume I have no income or would it be more probable that they may suspect based on the past 20 years that I've skipped on the obligation to REPORT (as I owe nothing on taxes)? Being that I don't owe, I just don't want to get a letter to explain myself later but I know it's a nightmare to talk to those people because they see everyone as criminals haha.

Possible but how probable?

[imovercs]

As former IRS Revenue Officer, I am replying to your latest post. You filed for many years and now you have no income so you do not want to file. Fine just do not file if as you say you have no income. As far as IRS is concerned, thousands of people stop filing each year. Ever hear of death,iIllness, accidents, business failures? They do not compare this years filers to last years to see if someone stopped filing. I know the reputation they have, but it is greatly exaggerated. There is no supercomputer keeping track of each and every person. You could have a problem in about four months when they finish matching up all the forms reporting income from various sources; businesses, banks, retirement plans, brokerage firms, gambling casinos, contractors, etc. etc. with those who filed and those who did not file. This is when they locate nonfilers and begin the processs to determine if they were required to file. If you have no income from reportable sources or only income below the amount requiring filing then you are ok. If you are living in a foreign country and making good money, you should file as an expat and follow the generous allowances usually provided by this type of filing, also Thailand and US have a tax treaty that gives you credit on US taxes for taxes paid here. Many countries do this. I am no fan of taxes in their current amounts and forms, but believe me as a former collector of unfiled returns and unpaid taxes, the consequences can be devastating. File and pay, join legitimate groups working to reform and lower taxes, that is my two cents worth.

[thaihome]

Try taxact then. If you feel you want to file or feel you need to that is.

BTW, doing my usual EXTENSION on taxact the program now tells me that for U.S. citizens outside the country and actually FILING the extension, it is only for four months, not six months (15 Oct. as I said before). (People in the U.S., it is still six months.) Is this new?!?

I have been filing extensions for years using my Thai address and then don't file a return until October. Have those been late because I only had a four month extension before?

No, you get the automatic 2 months plus the 4 months if you have filed for the Form 4868 extension.

TH

When To File Form 4868

File Form 4868 by April 17, 2012. Fiscal year taxpayers, file Form

4868 by the regular due date of the return.

Taxpayers who are out of the country. If, on the regular due date

of your return, you are out of the country and a U.S. citizen or

resident, you are allowed 2 extra months to file your return and pay

any amount due without requesting an extension. For a calendar

year return, this is June 15, 2012. File this form and be sure to

check the box on line 8 if you need an additional 4 months to file

your return

[tutsiwarrior]

so...we understand that June 15, 2012 can be considered to be the 'deadline' for filing 2011 tax returns for taxpayers living overseas whether we submit an f4868 application or not...is this correct? this is indicated on the f4868 instructions per my understanding/observation...

and there should be a reference in the f1040 instructions to this effect but there is not...do we need to include a declaration stating that we are overseas on the April 17 date with our f1040?

[Jingthing]

so...we understand that June 15, 2012 can be considered to be the 'deadline' for filing 2011 tax returns for taxpayers living overseas whether we submit an f4868 application or not...is this correct? this is indicated on the f4868 instructions per my understanding/observation...

and there should be a reference in the f1040 instructions to this effect but there is not...do we need to include a declaration stating that we are overseas on the April 17 date with our f1040?

I think if overseas with filing for an extension you only have a two month automatic extension. Not too late right now (17 April deadline) to file the form on taxact to get more months though!

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/usa-cities-time.htm

[tutsiwarrior]

so...we understand that June 15, 2012 can be considered to be the 'deadline' for filing 2011 tax returns for taxpayers living overseas whether we submit an f4868 application or not...is this correct? this is indicated on the f4868 instructions per my understanding/observation...

and there should be a reference in the f1040 instructions to this effect but there is not...do we need to include a declaration stating that we are overseas on the April 17 date with our f1040?

I think if overseas with filing for an extension you only have a two month automatic extension. Not too late right now (17 April deadline) to file the form on taxact to get more months though!

http://wwp.greenwich...cities-time.htm

yeah, JT...I'm talking about the automatic extension that requires no application or paperwork so that we can say that June 15, 2012 is the deadline for overseas resident US citizens for filing the 2011 tax return...

'hooray fer the red white and bluuue...'...as a matter of fack I may go down to post office tmw as the f1040 and the f2555 have been ready to go for the last 3 weeks but new girls keep coming on to the porn sites on the internet and etc...