Abhisit Vows To Back Probe Into 91 Deaths

[AleG]

Are you as thick as two short planks or just plain dishonest? I've never defended the Red Shirt intrusion into Chula, but I've always defended truth and fact about the intrusion against the hyperbole, lies and false memory syndrome displayed by posters such as yourself. And you're at it again, posting two videos that are not from the incident we're discussing.

The first video is from the night the Red Shirts stormed into the hospital, the guy being dragged and punched is one of the two they abducted from the hospital premises.

The second video is from a previous incident where the Red Shirts broke into a hospital to remove the bodies of protesters killed at Democracy Monument, I didn't claim it to be from Chulalongkorn hospital and it's quite obvious by looking at it that is not the same place.

So you may start by apologizing for calling me a liar....

In a discussion about specifics of the Red Shirt intrusion into Chula, you posted a video of an incident outside the hospital after the intrusion and a video of a separate incident. You may start by apologising for your attempted deception.

Obviously there's no point in arguing with you. Won't happen again.

[Siam Simon]

Are you as thick as two short planks or just plain dishonest? I've never defended the Red Shirt intrusion into Chula, but I've always defended truth and fact about the intrusion against the hyperbole, lies and false memory syndrome displayed by posters such as yourself. And you're at it again, posting two videos that are not from the incident we're discussing.

The first video is from the night the Red Shirts stormed into the hospital, the guy being dragged and punched is one of the two they abducted from the hospital premises.

The second video is from a previous incident where the Red Shirts broke into a hospital to remove the bodies of protesters killed at Democracy Monument, I didn't claim it to be from Chulalongkorn hospital and it's quite obvious by looking at it that is not the same place.

So you may start by apologizing for calling me a liar....

In a discussion about specifics of the Red Shirt intrusion into Chula, you posted a video of an incident outside the hospital after the intrusion and a video of a separate incident. You may start by apologising for your attempted deception.

Obviously there's no point in arguing with you. Won't happen again.

If you want to debate something specific, then debate that specific. Going off on a tangent with yet another 'this is Red Shirts for you....." frother-type post adds nothing to the specific discussion. The politics discussions have enough of that silliness as it is.

[longway]

^ even more curious is that Thaksin is the one who wants to forget about it all and Abhist supports a full investigation

And why are some people so keen to derail this thread with the usual troll-like baseless accusations....?

If Abhisit had truly wanted the truth he would have given the committee that he set up sub poena powers and ensured that those witnesses both military and civilian be compelled to give evidence. He didn't and managed to keep it that way until he was finally got rid of.

By then, the damage was done. Even now, the supposed obviousness of "the reds did it" wrt the arson at the mall has not been proved. He has been devious from the beginning with the CRES at first denying anybody had been killed by the army, they didn't have live bullets, the people in the Wat were killed from bullets at ground level (Abhisit himself came out with that gem) etc. etc. etc.

One final thing, it is an extremely lame debating "technique" to claim "some people so keen to derail this thread with the usual troll-like baseless accusations....?" if you don't agree with what they say.

With respect, its all completely irrelevant. What is interesting is that Abhisit can now call for full investigations while the PT is government and Thaksin and various elements of the reds want to forget about it all, with Thaksin literally singing a very different and very off key tune.

When he said Chang mae mun I dont think the reds realised that included them too.

You think Abhisit is the only devious one?

[Siam Simon]

Just out of interest I found this - haven't checked out other sources yet.

BANGKOK, 5 May 2010 (NNT) – M79 grenade attacks at Sala Daeng Intersection on 22 April 2010 have been proven to be shot from Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital, according to the Central Institute of Forensic Science Director, Khunying MD Pornthip Rojanasunan................

http://thainews.prd....id=255305050012

Curiouser and curiouser..............

It seems!

"A parallel investigation, also led by Pornthip, into the M-79 grenade attack on BTS Sala Daeng station on April 22 found that five rounds were fired from more than one location, possibly from one team that kept moving or from a number of teams of attackers.

The shots at three locations, aimed at crowds of Silom residents jeering at the red shirts across the street, could have been fired from high-vantage points or from behind the statute of King Rama VI to the south of Lumpini Park. This attack killed one and injured scores of others."

Source (May 5)

Wasn't the second report commissioned because the army didn't like the conclusions of the first report? Though I'd be inclined to agree with them if Pornthip used the GT200 to 'find' traces of explosive on Chula's fifth floor (and she probably did). Wonder if she used said GT200 in the second investigation?

[Skywalker69]

Babcock #232

Yes and you said it, quote "some red shirt nut" do you think he was the only nut there?

One kid is one kid to many. You don´t bring kids into a war zone. Again lame red shirt supporters excuse.

[heiwa]

Babcock #232

Yes and you said it, quote "some red shirt nut" do you think he was the only nut there?

One kid is one kid to many. You don´t bring kids into a war zone. Again lame red shirt supporters excuse.

Please make an intelligent response. Have you heard of past and present extrajudicial killings? Does it ring a bell? Any sensible person would arm themselves if they knew they were going to be attacked by the police and army - obviously - past and "present" behaviour. It is is saddening to see such delusional behaviour from so many farang in Thailand. Thailand is a very "special" environment. I hope one day you are not unfortunate enough to find this out yourself. It truly is the wild west. You really are living in dream land. Thailand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world - fact and people act accordingly - armed to the teeth. People act according to the environment - they call that self-preservation. Edited April 30, 2012 by heiwa

[Buchholz]

One final thing, it is an extremely lame debating "technique" to claim "some people so keen to derail this thread with the usual troll-like baseless accusations....?" if you don't agree with what they say.

Was it a "debating technique"? I'm just making a statement based on my observations of this thread.

I'm also well aware of how the Chula hospital raid by the red shirts unfolded. I was monitoring the events on TV and Twitter from Ramathibodi hospital with my wife, sister-in-law and her husband, along with their newborn child. They were actually supposed to give birth to the baby in Chula hospital, but couldn't navigate their way through the red shirt barricades and ultimately ended up giving birth to the baby in the car on the way to Ramathibodi.

Spin what you want from your armchair in London or wherever. We have personal experiences, along with ludicrous amounts of video footage of events from a wide range of sources to validate our claims.

You have Amsterdam and his "White Paper" (until the HRW report came along and tore it to ribbons).

and then along comes another to pontificate from 13,632 kilometers away to tell us about events in Bangkok....

The germs: the reds infection of the Thai political body

by Thongchai Winichakul

The media reports, especially on TV, are

< snipped >

Thanks for your perspective from Madison, Wisconsin, Thongchai.

.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

In the TV Red Shirt supporters/admirers mind it´s totally OK to use kids as shields and storm hospitals, in the Geneva Convention it´s not. That´s about says it all.

Oh dear oh dear.

Some redshirt nut holds up his child taunting the soldiers and the story transmutes into "redshirts use kids as human shields."

there were other instances...

May 17, 2010

TIME magazine

One of the most troubling aspects of the escalating political confrontation in Thailand is the children it places in harm's way. Leaders of the anti-government protest movement on Sunday spurned calls to remove children and the elderly from their sit-in in central Bangkok, even as soldiers surrounded their protest site and exchanges of gunfire left two dozen people dead on the capital's streets.

"Yes, I know it is dangerous, and I know there are children here," said Nattawut Saikua, one of the leaders of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, the anti-government group more commonly known as the Red Shirts.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1989543,00.html#ixzz1tA5BUHFY

[Buchholz]

"Try looking across the road at a few thousand arsonists and looters"

The hyperbole is upped and upped.

"For some reason you find it curious that security personnel are on the grounds of a vacated hospital"

Chulalongkorn is run by the the Thai Red Cross and as such is subject to the Geneva Convention

Convention (I) for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Annex I. Draft Agreement Relating to Hospital Zones and Localities

Art. 2. No persons residing, in whatever capacity, in a hospital zone shall perform any work, either within or without the zone, directly connected with military operations or the production of war material.

Art. 5. Hospital zones shall be subject to the following obligations:

The lines of communication and means of transport which they possess shall not be used for the transport of military personnel or material, even in transit.

They shall in no case be defended by military means.

you might like to check to which conflicts the Geneva Convention applies, or more to the point, situations where they don't.

After a hospital has been emptied, consideration for patients is no longer required. Protecting its integrity and contents from persons who have clearly stated that if not satisfied they will burn public buildings including hospitals calls for the presence of security forces.

Laughable misunderstanding of the applications of the Geneva Convention.

Civil strife by armed thugs registers an N/A with the GC.

(hint: GC is for war)

.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Buchholz

[OzMick]

In the TV Red Shirt supporters/admirers mind it´s totally OK to use kids as shields and storm hospitals, in the Geneva Convention it´s not. That´s about says it all.

Oh dear oh dear.

Some redshirt nut holds up his child taunting the soldiers and the story transmutes into "redshirts use kids as human shields."

there were other instances...

May 17, 2010

TIME magazine

One of the most troubling aspects of the escalating political confrontation in Thailand is the children it places in harm's way. Leaders of the anti-government protest movement on Sunday spurned calls to remove children and the elderly from their sit-in in central Bangkok, even as soldiers surrounded their protest site and exchanges of gunfire left two dozen people dead on the capital's streets.

"Yes, I know it is dangerous, and I know there are children here," said Nattawut Saikua, one of the leaders of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, the anti-government group more commonly known as the Red Shirts.

Read more: http://www.time.com/...l#ixzz1tA5BUHFY

Was Nattawut wearing his DILLIGAF T-shirt at the time of the quote?

[OzMick]

"Try looking across the road at a few thousand arsonists and looters"

The hyperbole is upped and upped.

"For some reason you find it curious that security personnel are on the grounds of a vacated hospital"

Chulalongkorn is run by the the Thai Red Cross and as such is subject to the Geneva Convention

Convention (I) for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Annex I. Draft Agreement Relating to Hospital Zones and Localities

Art. 2. No persons residing, in whatever capacity, in a hospital zone shall perform any work, either within or without the zone, directly connected with military operations or the production of war material.

Art. 5. Hospital zones shall be subject to the following obligations:

The lines of communication and means of transport which they possess shall not be used for the transport of military personnel or material, even in transit.

They shall in no case be defended by military means.

you might like to check to which conflicts the Geneva Convention applies, or more to the point, situations where they don't.

After a hospital has been emptied, consideration for patients is no longer required. Protecting its integrity and contents from persons who have clearly stated that if not satisfied they will burn public buildings including hospitals calls for the presence of security forces.

Laughable misunderstanding of the applications of the Geneva Convention.

Civil strife by armed thugs registers an N/A with the GC.

(hint: GC is for war)

.

While largely you are correct, Protocol 2 applies to non-international conflicts. The problem is that it refers to armed insurrection rather than simple criminal behaviour.

I wonder if in FiFi's mind the supposedly peaceful protest was in fact an armed insurrection which would allow some protection under Protocol 2 but would fully justify the actions of the RTA far beyond those actually taken, or if the red acts were simply criminal (as in carried out by simple criminals) which justifies the legal actions taken and pending.

I await his reply, but won't be waiting up.

[whybother]

Immoral or pragmatic - If the police and army chose not to wage wore that day with "civilians" there would have been no deaths. A buddhist would see this as instant karma for waging a war against "the electorate". Same can be seen all over the world now by the elite and their goons (police and army) - USA, Syria, Malaysia etc. The fact is they should have not been there protecting the elite with gun fire on innocents. People should be able to protest where-ever and when-ever they want.

"People should be able to protest where-ever and when-ever they want." ... with guns and grenades?

That's what the Syrian President is saying about his electorate. And even if they were from past army behaviour I would think that would be prudent. Do you recall Thamsat? All over the world is using the army and police to kill the impoverished. You obviously can not connect with this because you have too much money.

"because you have too much money." - I wish.

Past army behaviour from how many years ago? The reds can't complain too much about the deaths if they bring their own guns to kill people.

I suppose from your previous comment, you have no problem with the yellow shirts protests at government house and the airports.

Edited April 30, 2012 by whybother

[Skywalker69]

...

So, some people standing around in the hospital's lobby and some more people walking up the levels of the indoor car park is "pandemonium", is it? Hmmm.....Anyway here's how you described it: "Footage i recall showed hospital staff barrackading up doors and reds storming through them forcefully wielding a variety of weapons. People then shrieking and fleeing in varying directions. In short, pandemonium" Of course, nothing in the video evidence provided shows anything that you so vividly described.

And I think it's safe to state that you'd believe anything if if helped to discredit the Red Shirts.

..

I do remember seeing the news back when the event happened, a mob of Red Shirts, some with sticks and helmets, bursting in through the lobby (lobby I think) of the hospital.

But don't let that stand on the way of the SS Revisionism steaming full ahead.

Remember this one you posted. 2 foot high "blackshirt"

Something cooked up in Adobe After Effects by some "hi-so."

What provokes you to post such BS.

[philw]

Immoral or pragmatic - If the police and army chose not to wage wore that day with "civilians" there would have been no deaths. A buddhist would see this as instant karma for waging a war against "the electorate". Same can be seen all over the world now by the elite and their goons (police and army) - USA, Syria, Malaysia etc. The fact is they should have not been there protecting the elite with gun fire on innocents. People should be able to protest where-ever and when-ever they want.

"People should be able to protest where-ever and when-ever they want." ... with guns and grenades?

That's what the Syrian President is saying about his electorate. And even if they were from past army behaviour I would think that would be prudent. Do you recall Thamsat? All over the world is using the army and police to kill the impoverished. You obviously can not connect with this because you have too much money.

"because you have too much money." - I wish.

Past army behaviour from how many years ago? The reds can't complain too much about the deaths if they bring their own guns to kill people.

I suppose from your previous comment, you have no problem with the yellow shirts protests at government house and the airports.

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

[whybother]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

The red shirts murdered a few people too.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary, but that's what happens when two sides are shooting at each other.

[hyperdimension]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible, and this may be why he wants everyone to just forget about it and "reconcile" to "move forward". Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Edited April 30, 2012 by hyperdimension

[philw]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible. Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Who was the Prime Minister who authorised the shootings by the Army ??

[whybother]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible. Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Who was the Prime Minister who authorised the shootings by the Army ??

Who was the ex-PM who organised his minions to be armed?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[philw]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible. Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Who was the Prime Minister who authorised the shootings by the Army ??

Who was the ex-PM who organised his minions to be armed?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

Don't know, who could that be ??

[hyperdimension]

It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Actually I was wrong, it was Seh Daeng who said "sometime after Valentine's Day", while another general said April, which is when it actually happened:

When should the mayhem and bloodletting take place? There are variations in terms of timing for the strike. Seh Daeng said it should be sometime after Valentine's Day, as instructed by Thaksin. Another ageing general said April would be judgement day, and that would be the time for Thaksin's return to triumph.

Remeber that this article was written in December 2009, before we had any idea of what violence was to transpire from Thaksin's Red Shirts.

Edited April 30, 2012 by hyperdimension

[Siam Simon]

One final thing, it is an extremely lame debating "technique" to claim "some people so keen to derail this thread with the usual troll-like baseless accusations....?" if you don't agree with what they say.

Was it a "debating technique"? I'm just making a statement based on my observations of this thread.

I'm also well aware of how the Chula hospital raid by the red shirts unfolded. I was monitoring the events on TV and Twitter from Ramathibodi hospital with my wife, sister-in-law and her husband, along with their newborn child. They were actually supposed to give birth to the baby in Chula hospital, but couldn't navigate their way through the red shirt barricades and ultimately ended up giving birth to the baby in the car on the way to Ramathibodi.

Spin what you want from your armchair in London or wherever. We have personal experiences, along with ludicrous amounts of video footage of events from a wide range of sources to validate our claims.

You have Amsterdam and his "White Paper" (until the HRW report came along and tore it to ribbons).

and then along comes another to pontificate from 13,632 kilometers away to tell us about events in Bangkok....

The germs: the reds infection of the Thai political body

by Thongchai Winichakul

The media reports, especially on TV, are

< snipped >

Thanks for your perspective from Madison, Wisconsin, Thongchai.

.

And Buchholz pontificates from Sriracha .

Of course, the only forum member who is known to have spent significant amounts of time in the thick of the 2010 troubles (nicknostitz) - and he spent a very significant amount of time in the thick of said troubles - is subjected to relentless personal attacks and attempts at character assassination by Buchholz and all the other forum propagandists and frothers every time he posts

Does it matter whether you're 100 miles or 1,000,000 miles from something you're discussing? All the media is available in real time for anyone wanting access to it. All our opinions are formed by evidence provided by others. Except for nicknostitz, but he provides thoroughly researched ,mostly first-hand witness evidence that doesn't fit the 'false memory syndrome' that the forum's right wingers suffer from, so best to insult him and try to drive him away from the forum.

[Buchholz]

Was it a "debating technique"? I'm just making a statement based on my observations of this thread.

I'm also well aware of how the Chula hospital raid by the red shirts unfolded. I was monitoring the events on TV and Twitter from Ramathibodi hospital with my wife, sister-in-law and her husband, along with their newborn child. They were actually supposed to give birth to the baby in Chula hospital, but couldn't navigate their way through the red shirt barricades and ultimately ended up giving birth to the baby in the car on the way to Ramathibodi.

Spin what you want from your armchair in London or wherever. We have personal experiences, along with ludicrous amounts of video footage of events from a wide range of sources to validate our claims.

You have Amsterdam and his "White Paper" (until the HRW report came along and tore it to ribbons).

and then along comes another to pontificate from 13,632 kilometers away to tell us about events in Bangkok....

The germs: the reds infection of the Thai political body

by Thongchai Winichakul

The media reports, especially on TV, are

< snipped >

Thanks for your perspective from Madison, Wisconsin, Thongchai.

.

And Buchholz pontificates from Sriracha

Anywhere in Thailand is closer than your viewpoints from the UK.

Still, thanks for your perspective from there.

.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Buchholz

[metisdead]

A post in which a member's name had been modified to take the piss has been removed. To modify another member's name to ridicule another member is a rather immature tactic, belongs in the sandbox.

[phiphidon]

While largely you are correct, Protocol 2 applies to non-international conflicts. The problem is that it refers to armed insurrection rather than simple criminal behaviour.

I wonder if in FiFi's mind the supposedly peaceful protest was in fact an armed insurrection which would allow some protection under Protocol 2 but would fully justify the actions of the RTA far beyond those actually taken, or if the red acts were simply criminal (as in carried out by simple criminals) which justifies the legal actions taken and pending.

I await his reply, but won't be waiting up.

When buchholz is finished falling about musing on the "laughable misunderstanding of the applications of the Geneva Convention" and you haved sated your desire for amusement over the misrepresentation of my member name (not for the first time, I hate to use the buchholz tactic of reporting everything but will do if you keep on with your silly little game) perhaps you may wish to read the following part of the 7 Fundamental Principals taken from the Chulakorn Hospital site:

Neutrality

In order to continue to enjoy the confidence of all, the Movement may not take sides in hostilities or engage at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.

Analysis of the Fundamental Principle of Neutrality

The text under the Fundamental principle of Neutrality includes three elements:

• the purpose of complying with the principle of Neutrality is to enjoy the confidence of all. Implicitly, this compliance with the principle of Neutrality is also a condition for operational efficiency, which requires confidence of all in many contexts, i.e. not only in armed conflicts contexts;
  
• the principle of Neutrality prohibits a component of the Movement from taking part in hostilities;
  
• the principle of Neutrality prohibits the Movement from engaging at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.
  

which rules out having armed soldiers on or in a Red Cross Hospital whether you call it a war, civil war, armed insurrection or whatever. There are also implications for the Impartiality and Independance of the hospital, 2 more of the 7 Fundamental Principles.

So obfuscate all you like, the above "should" be a mantra for the hospital, however, as has been seen by the the Thai HRW, they seem to have different viewpoints to the main body of their respective organisations.

[OzMick]

Then report such 'incidents', providing documentary and photographic evidence, like nicknostitz does. Then you will start to become a credible source of information. I can assure you that I won't take a party political pov if you take that leap of faith: I'm fully aware of the ugliness committed by assorted Red Shirts; I just don't like posters insulting my intelligence with their hyperbole.

You are "fully aware of the ugliness committed by assorted Red Shirts" but find it acceptable, and continue to support their actions. I guess you can't see the warts from that far away. Gulliver's Travels comes to mind.

Were you here during the shit-storm the reds unleashed on Bangkok in 2010? On a more personal note, did you have connection to the Pirate's Bar on Samui?

[OzMick]

While largely you are correct, Protocol 2 applies to non-international conflicts. The problem is that it refers to armed insurrection rather than simple criminal behaviour.

I wonder if in FiFi's mind the supposedly peaceful protest was in fact an armed insurrection which would allow some protection under Protocol 2 but would fully justify the actions of the RTA far beyond those actually taken, or if the red acts were simply criminal (as in carried out by simple criminals) which justifies the legal actions taken and pending.

I await his reply, but won't be waiting up.

When buchholz is finished falling about musing on the "laughable misunderstanding of the applications of the Geneva Convention" and you haved sated your desire for amusement over the misrepresentation of my member name (not for the first time, I hate to use the buchholz tactic of reporting everything but will do if you keep on with your silly little game) perhaps you may wish to read the following part of the 7 Fundamental Principals taken from the Chulakorn Hospital site:

Neutrality

In order to continue to enjoy the confidence of all, the Movement may not take sides in hostilities or engage at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.

Analysis of the Fundamental Principle of Neutrality

The text under the Fundamental principle of Neutrality includes three elements:

• the purpose of complying with the principle of Neutrality is to enjoy the confidence of all. Implicitly, this compliance with the principle of Neutrality is also a condition for operational efficiency, which requires confidence of all in many contexts, i.e. not only in armed conflicts contexts;
  
• the principle of Neutrality prohibits a component of the Movement from taking part in hostilities;
  
• the principle of Neutrality prohibits the Movement from engaging at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.
  

which rules out having armed soldiers on or in a Red Cross Hospital whether you call it a war, civil war, armed insurrection or whatever. There are also implications for the Impartiality and Independance of the hospital, 2 more of the 7 Fundamental Principles.

So obfuscate all you like, the above "should" be a mantra for the hospital, however, as has been seen by the the Thai HRW, they seem to have different viewpoints to the main body of their respective organisations.

I guess you'd rather reply to Buchholz than myself. I still await your reply on Protocol 2 of the Geneva Conventions (which you brought up) and how they apply.

And I again point out that AFTER the hospital was vacated, it is quite reasonable to have security forces on the ground given the nature and professed intent of their new near neighbours. The only proven militants to enter the hospital BEFORE the evacuation were red shirts, an event which caused the evacuation and for which they have apologised. But you keep flogging the dead horse if it amuses you.

[phiphidon]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible, and this may be why he wants everyone to just forget about it and "reconcile" to "move forward". Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Ah, the reasoned mind of Sopon Onkgara at work. I can see why he appeals to you hyperdimension. He must be good at forecasting aka "wishing it upon" Here's part of an article of his predicting/wishing for "Another crackdown, more bloodshed expected" taken from The Nation, published April 20th 2010

All was set as of yesterday afternoon for "operation payback" by teams of troops to disperse the red shirts who are still occupying Rajprasong intersection. But there had been no action as of press time. The forces were still awaiting the final green light from Army chief General Anupong Paochinda.

Maybe the plan has to be fine-tuned to ensure minimal loss of life. Casualties must be avoided on both sides. If there is to be some collateral damage, the level must be contained to avoid a backlash.

But the military obviously does not want the bitter events of April 10 to recur. The heavy losses suffered during the security operation in the Rajdamnoen area were a disaster, as well as a tactical blunder, from the military point of view.

The upcoming mission is inevitable now that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has given the go-ahead order by appointing the Army chief to handle the task - despite the PM's extreme reluctance to command a military crackdown on the red shirts.

The general, due to retire at the end of September, has to choose between national survival, together with that of the monarchy, or a regime that sees Thaksin Shinawatra's triumphant return via the help of the red shirts.

The red shirts are no longer regarded as genuine campaigners for democracy as they have claimed. In the eyes of fair-minded observers, the ringleaders have committed high treason. Armed terrorists are their fearsome supporters, who carried out indiscriminate shootings at soldiers and civilians on April 10.

The red shirts know that their days are numbered. They can never walk around like free men again. But surely they want to live to spend the fortune they have extracted from Thaksin through his campaign funding. But the circumstances and the severity of their crimes simply forbid such an opportunity. The red shirts must fight to win so that they can get amnesty later.

The longer the Army chief vacillates on the decision to order his men to take action, the greater the damage resulting from the eventual action. And the damage will be very hard to write off when the full account, and the full body count, is complete.

If the red shirts can mobilise more supporters by today, the crowd could spill from Rajdamri into Silom Road, the heart of the central business district. If that happens and the area is brought to a standstill, it would be a calamity for the national economy.

Already, five-star hotels around the Rajprasong area are waiting to temporarily shut down, now that guests have moved out to more secure places. At the same time, red shirts are hollering that they have been marked for certain death, with snipers and marksmen also in position

Well, yes, precisely, the voice of reason with no particular bias at all...............................

Edited May 1, 2012 by phiphidon

[OzMick]

Obfuscate to your hearts content, fact remains RTA murdered a lot of people, in cold blood, using snipers.

Probably not a world first in repression, but right up there in the general category.

Some here think it was justified, personally I think not.

Leave it at that and let the Thai people sort it out.

None of the deaths were justified or necessary and the Assxxxles on here who justify such are contemptible.

Thaksin planned the riots with his rogue generals at the end of 2009. How can anyone not expect a war-like situation to break out? They were generals with access to military weapons. Thaksin basically sent his Red Shirt pawns to their deaths, so he is ultimately responsible, and this may be why he wants everyone to just forget about it and "reconcile" to "move forward". Did you read the 2009 article Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown that predicted the mayhem months in advance? It got most facts right, except for the timing - instead of February 2010 it all started in April 2010.

Ah, the reasoned mind of Sopon Onkgara at work. I can see why he appeals to you hyperdimension. He must be good at forecasting aka "wishing it upon" Here's part of an article of his predicting/wishing for "Another crackdown, more bloodshed expected" taken from The Nation, published April 20th 2010

All was set as of yesterday afternoon for "operation payback" by teams of troops to disperse the red shirts who are still occupying Rajprasong intersection. But there had been no action as of press time. The forces were still awaiting the final green light from Army chief General Anupong Paochinda.

Maybe the plan has to be fine-tuned to ensure minimal loss of life. Casualties must be avoided on both sides. If there is to be some collateral damage, the level must be contained to avoid a backlash.

But the military obviously does not want the bitter events of April 10 to recur. The heavy losses suffered during the security operation in the Rajdamnoen area were a disaster, as well as a tactical blunder, from the military point of view.

The upcoming mission is inevitable now that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has given the go-ahead order by appointing the Army chief to handle the task - despite the PM's extreme reluctance to command a military crackdown on the red shirts.

The general, due to retire at the end of September, has to choose between national survival, together with that of the monarchy, or a regime that sees Thaksin Shinawatra's triumphant return via the help of the red shirts.

The red shirts are no longer regarded as genuine campaigners for democracy as they have claimed. In the eyes of fair-minded observers, the ringleaders have committed high treason. Armed terrorists are their fearsome supporters, who carried out indiscriminate shootings at soldiers and civilians on April 10.

The red shirts know that their days are numbered. They can never walk around like free men again. But surely they want to live to spend the fortune they have extracted from Thaksin through his campaign funding. But the circumstances and the severity of their crimes simply forbid such an opportunity. The red shirts must fight to win so that they can get amnesty later.

The longer the Army chief vacillates on the decision to order his men to take action, the greater the damage resulting from the eventual action. And the damage will be very hard to write off when the full account, and the full body count, is complete.

If the red shirts can mobilise more supporters by today, the crowd could spill from Rajdamri into Silom Road, the heart of the central business district. If that happens and the area is brought to a standstill, it would be a calamity for the national economy.

Already, five-star hotels around the Rajprasong area are waiting to temporarily shut down, now that guests have moved out to more secure places. At the same time, red shirts are hollering that they have been marked for certain death, with snipers and marksmen also in position

Well, yes, precisely, the voice of reason with no particular bias at all...............................

Correct. Astute and accurate. Except he didn't forecast the fires, did he.

You remind me of those who thought the sun rotated around the Earth. They forgot to allow for their own point of observation when commenting on the actions of others.

[phiphidon]

I am afraid that many of us also strongly object to your habit of making personal attacks

Coming from you, that's preciously comical.

Anyway, perhaps we can cease furthering this whole off-topic issue of posters habits (and I apologize for falling into the baiting that extrapolated into the above exchange) and return to the topic at hand.

So, to return to the characters that are on topic, just how is the government's probe into the 91 deaths progressing?

It would seem Abhisit's valid claim in the OP that not much is reinforced by the government not addressing it.

.

What do you think of Abhisits decision to set up a committee to look into the truth of the incidents in 2010 that didn't have the powers to be able to insist on witnesses providing valuable information to that committee? Don't you think by that omission he was clearly stating his lack of commitment to the truth. Please bear in mind the the lies and half truths he, his government, the CRES and the Army had been spreading beforehand when considering your answer.

[whybother]

What do you think of Abhisits decision to set up a committee to look into the truth of the incidents in 2010 that didn't have the powers to be able to insist on witnesses providing valuable information to that committee? Don't you think by that omission he was clearly stating his lack of commitment to the truth. Please bear in mind the the lies and half truths he, his government, the CRES and the Army had been spreading beforehand when considering your answer.

And with PTP being in power for 9 months .... nothing has changed.