Abhisit Vows To Back Probe Into 91 Deaths

[phiphidon]

I am aware that it was about that and more. But they demanded early elections, elections that they would have got anyway if instead of protesting, they waited just another 1.5 to 2 years, which is an insignificant amount of time in the bigger scheme of things. Thaksin probably would have re-taken power anyway via his populist policies, just a little later than he wanted, and all of those people who had died would probably still be alive today.

The problem with this is nobody on the red shirt side trusted Abhisit to offer elections. He was already backtracking on the 3rd May

PM Abhisit explained that there are five factors in the solution of the political crisis at present...........

For the fifth factor, the PM said, I saw the opportunity to make reconciliation which will never be achieved without co-operations from all sides...................

..........................When we reach that such peaceful time, the government would be ready to hold a general election again for the people to elect a new government. The target date for the new general election is on November 14. However, he insisted that if the framework as set for the reconciliation is not achievable as aimed for, the government will continue its course and would not be able to tell when the new general election will be held.

He also warned the red shirts by saying this:

If the peace is not yet return, I would like to say to the red-shirt demonstrators that even though I have heard all of your opinions as expressed, I would not be able to respond to all your demands.

http://blog.nationmu...0/05/04/entry-1

Tuesday , May 4 , 2010

That peaceful time...............as defined by him. One mysterious bomb blast or one M79 fired from who knows, all bets are off. Please excuse my cynicism.

[Emptyset]

I think you missed the point a little. Both sides committed crimes. I think you could talk about UDD crimes all day, so I won't recap, but remember that that particular protest by PAD blocked access to Parliament - which again is breaking the law. Honestly.... I don't think the RTP really understood the difference between military tear gas canisters and ones used in the west for crowd control. But that's OT.

The point you missed was the hypocrisy (common among politicians worldwide) of preaching while in opposition, then doing the opposite while in power.

Good point but remember they blocked parliment to stop a caretaker government from changing the laws to legitimise their corruption. Also dont forget that the Thaksin government were calling for the ruthless border police to come to BKK to deal with the yellows after the failure of the BIB to break them up. Now that would have been a bloodbath.

Caretaker government? It was actually the Border Patrol Police that provided security for the airport, I don't think anyone could accuse them of being ruthless in their defence of it. And what do you mean the govt was 'calling for?' Why would it need to call for them? It could just order them to come in, like it ordered them to protect the airport. The BPP are used in many operations in Bangkok btw, they were involved in last year's confrontation with the PAD over the toilets... not to say they don't have a shady reputation, dating back to the 70s, but no more so that the police and military generally, surely... ?*

*You might be thinking of the Thahan Phran though? They might have something approaching a ruthless reputation. Were the govt thinking of bringing them in? Got a link? In any case, they surely could have brought them in, but in the end they didn't - so how is that justification for anything?

[hyperdimension]

I am aware that it was about that and more. But they demanded early elections, elections that they would have got anyway if instead of protesting, they waited just another 1.5 to 2 years, which is an insignificant amount of time in the bigger scheme of things. Thaksin probably would have re-taken power anyway via his populist policies, just a little later than he wanted, and all of those people who had died would probably still be alive today.

The problem with this is nobody on the red shirt side trusted Abhisit to offer elections. He was already backtracking on the 3rd May

But why did they even protest in the first place demanding elections, when there would be elections anyway after the Democrat-led government's term expires? The end result probably would have been the same whether they got early elections or not - Thaksin re-taking power - except if they had waited for the government's term to expire then those who had died would probably be still alive. In the end, was it all worth it?

I know some people may mention the annual military reshuffle as a possible reason, but I'd like to hear your response.

Edited April 26, 2012 by hyperdimension

[Payboy]

Abhist vows to back probe into 91 deaths

Every Thai is responsible, in one way or another

"We are all responsible in one way or another"

That's got to be a lot of probes.

[Emptyset]

It's completely off-topic, but I'd love to (finally) see some photos of these "armed PAD" lot.

There are pictures of armed red shirts aplenty.

I posted several pics and reports on a thread over a year ago...

Did any of them show as purported in this thread.... machine guns?

.

No, don't think I found any pics of anything more than handguns... but they had at least one (found in the car of one of the leader's bodyguards): http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/08/opinion/opinion_30090406.php

To my mind it's inconceivable that they didn't have more of such weaponry. After all they stated they were willing to defend any crackdown using as much violence as necessary, using human shields as protection. I don't know what would've happened if the army had moved in, but it surely would've been akin to the UDD protests, if not worse... (given the protesters were tightly packed in the airport, women and families alongside more violent types - unlike, for the most part anyway, the UDD protests where the families sat at the stage and young men fought the military elsewhere). But any military crackdown on the PAD was out of the question anyway, and that's something to be thankful for.

[phiphidon]

Can you or anyone else refresh my memory when Thaksin said "just forget about it, everything's OK now". I'm not doubting it, but just that I've seen that quote on this forum being attributed by a democrat party member as being addressed specifically to Kamonkate Akahad's mother. I'd just like to know when Thaksin said it and in what form.

If you've been reading around, the general push for "reconciliation" from Pheu Thai is far more prominent than anything to do with seeking justice. The article "Lonely voices still seeking justice" in the Bangkok Post is just one example of many that shows that victims from both sides who want answers and accountability are being sidelined or ignored in the push to "move forward". Also, I hope you have read the article "Daring double game in Thailand" on the Asia times web site - it all boils down to "cash and contracts".

No, I'm looking for the actual quote or something approximating it that the democrats have manipulated - what the above is an answer to, well who knows, but it is certainly not to my question.

OK maybe it doesn't exist. if you read my post, it was just speculation that he may say that, i.e. call off all investigations, after doing a deal with his opponents.

I'm not having a go at you It's just that a democrat spokesman made a point of stating that Thaksin did say that and specifically to Kates parents. That is not just dirty politics, that is filthy politics.

[hyperdimension]

I don't know what would've happened if the army had moved in, but it surely would've been akin to the UDD protests, if not worse...

Did they have anyone equivalent to the rogue Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol supplying any of the guys with military weapons?

[phiphidon]

I am aware that it was about that and more. But they demanded early elections, elections that they would have got anyway if instead of protesting, they waited just another 1.5 to 2 years, which is an insignificant amount of time in the bigger scheme of things. Thaksin probably would have re-taken power anyway via his populist policies, just a little later than he wanted, and all of those people who had died would probably still be alive today.

The problem with this is nobody on the red shirt side trusted Abhisit to offer elections. He was already backtracking on the 3rd May

But why did they even protest in the first place demanding elections, when there would be elections anyway after the Democrat-led government's term expires? The end result probably would have been the same whether they got early elections or not - Thaksin re-taking power - except if they had waited for the government's term to expire then those who had died would probably be still alive. In the end, was it all worth it?

I know some people may mention the annual military reshuffle as a possible reason, but I'd like to hear your response.

Yes,both the military shuffle and the sense of injustice of having their elections stolen from them, be it by the army or the constitutional courts. As far as they are concerned the constitutional court judges were put in place by the military junta so a double whammy if you like.

[hyperdimension]

If you've been reading around, the general push for "reconciliation" from Pheu Thai is far more prominent than anything to do with seeking justice. The article "Lonely voices still seeking justice" in the Bangkok Post is just one example of many that shows that victims from both sides who want answers and accountability are being sidelined or ignored in the push to "move forward". Also, I hope you have read the article "Daring double game in Thailand" on the Asia times web site - it all boils down to "cash and contracts".

No, I'm looking for the actual quote or something approximating it that the democrats have manipulated - what the above is an answer to, well who knows, but it is certainly not to my question.

OK maybe it doesn't exist. if you read my post, it was just speculation that he may say that, i.e. call off all investigations, after doing a deal with his opponents.

I'm not having a go at you It's just that a democrat spokesman made a point of stating that Thaksin did say that and specifically to Kates parents. That is not just dirty politics, that is filthy politics.

So as I said, let's wait and see. I do think that Thaksin is in negotiations with old elites and part of the deal may be to cease all investigations in order to foster "reconciliation", which would then mean no justice for victims and families (other than cash payouts, the way Thaksin likes to settle everything, even if it's not his own money but taxpayers' money) and those who were responsible for the deaths and injuries are not held accountable.

[hyperdimension]

I am aware that it was about that and more. But they demanded early elections, elections that they would have got anyway if instead of protesting, they waited just another 1.5 to 2 years, which is an insignificant amount of time in the bigger scheme of things. Thaksin probably would have re-taken power anyway via his populist policies, just a little later than he wanted, and all of those people who had died would probably still be alive today.

The problem with this is nobody on the red shirt side trusted Abhisit to offer elections. He was already backtracking on the 3rd May

But why did they even protest in the first place demanding elections, when there would be elections anyway after the Democrat-led government's term expires? The end result probably would have been the same whether they got early elections or not - Thaksin re-taking power - except if they had waited for the government's term to expire then those who had died would probably be still alive. In the end, was it all worth it?

I know some people may mention the annual military reshuffle as a possible reason, but I'd like to hear your response.

Yes,both the military shuffle and the sense of injustice of having their elections stolen from them, be it by the army or the constitutional courts. As far as they are concerned the constitutional court judges were put in place by the military junta so a double whammy if you like.

But why the rush when there would be elections anyway? Was it really necessary and worth it to risk injury or death simply in order to have elections a little earlier?

[phiphidon]

And that wasn't at the airport.

So then, that's a no. Despite thousands of people present and thousands of photos of the event, there's not any evidence of PAD with any machine guns at the airport as purported earlier in this thread.

Thank you.

Edit to add:

Now hopefully, we can focus on the topic of this thread rather than events that were 2 years prior to the topic of this thread.

.

So it's OK for you to go back in time, Buchholz, but not anybody else?

Below, just one post picked at random where in a barely on topic (the magazine mentions the red shirts criticizing Prem) reply to a thread entitled Red Shirt Leader Thida Warns Thai Govt On Cosying Up To 'Elite' Buchholz was spurred to rely on a magazine (now defunct?) from nearly 3 years prior to the thread he was answering. This also spurred more discussion and deflected away from the OP.......................

When asked if the red shirts would be upset by tomorrow's meeting, Yongyuth said he did not think they opposed the tradition of seeking Songkran blessings, or Prem directly.

"red shirts not opposed to Prem directly"

Phfft... Yongyuth with more of his ridiculous and deceitful statements..

or are we to believe that perhaps he never read any copies of the many different Red Shirt magazines.... even ones in which he appeared in (on the left) and which screamed the opposite:

From Voice of Taksin:

The title reads: Kong Beng Jew coming home! Prem the aristocrat, going to hell!

["Jew" being the nickname of Chawalit]. This headline refers to Chawalit returning to politics with the Puea Thai Party.

Despite the arrival of Chawalit in the Puea Thai Party, the Red Shirt message has centered more on Privy Councilor Prem.

In the latter part of October, all the "Red" publications have been focusing on Prem--especially Voice of Taksin which has article after article harshly criticizing Prem.

http://2bangkok.com/...tions0910b.html

.

[transam]

One of the few honourable and most honest Thai's that is involved with the governance of what could be an awesome country.

Comparing the morals and values of Abhisit against Thaksin or any many of the Shinwatra's is like chalk and cheese.

Abhisit personal assets are around 55 Millions. For a guy who never worked a single day of his life.

And you can imagine how much money is under his wife name ...

Truly a man of the people

How much has mega socialist ''Red'' Ken Livingstone got under his belt.?

[phiphidon]

Here is an old article for some background to the deaths during the 2010 riots.

Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown

By Sopon Onkgara

The Nation

Published on December 29, 2009

A NEW battle line has been drawn, with the sound of war drums beating, and the red shirts dancing around the bonfire. Their spirits are high, hoping that the showdown this time will be final and victorious. It does not matter to them whether there will be bloodshed or if the nation faces ruin.

The red-shirt battle cry this time came from a rogue junior Army general, and a number of retired military officers on the payroll of fugitiveThaksin Shinawatra. They don't mind being branded traitors. The tidy sum from the man in exile is considered worthwhile.

The other day, the rogue soldier, commonly known as "Seh Daeng" warned that the battle this time will be open, with advance warning when shots will be fired upon the enemy, or whoever dares to move against the joint push for power at the command of Thaksin.

"Seh Daeng", Major General Khattiya Sawasdiphol, is a self-styled warrior, seeking the full blaze of publicity. He commands a group of militia being given political indoctrination as well as basic arms training.

He brands his warriors as "Ronin", the legendary leaderless samurai warriors of ancient times, and also soldiers of King Taksin the Great, who fought to free Thailand from Burmese occupation before the Chakri Dynasty. Some of the rogue general's fighters are mere thugs with no honour and or valour. It is sheer brute force inspired by cowardice.

The warning, of course, should cause considerable unease among those who know about Seh Daeng's notoriety. His claim to fame was an ability to predict when grenades would be launched at the rallies of the People's Alliance for Democracy. He denied with a deadpan face, of course, that he had any part in the action. There was no proof, due to lukewarm investigations by law enforcement officers.

When should the mayhem and bloodletting take place? There are variations in terms of timing for the strike. Seh Daeng said it should be sometime after Valentine's Day, as instructed by Thaksin. Another ageing general said April would be judgement day, and that would be the time for Thaksin's return to triumph.

The red shirts are not quite sure. The leaders are obviously not happy that their thunder has been stolen by soldiers. That means the credit sought will be shared together with the prize for victory. The red-shirt leaders are known for their heavy campaign expenses sought from Thaksin, and they have pocketed huge chunks, much to the chagrin of other group leaders.

One of them said the showdown day had not yet been decided. It must be decided by the red shirts at a meeting. Sounding arrogant, he uttered thatThaksin was just a red-shirt member and must heed the joint decision. Such insolence could be dealt with when all political scores are settled.

What is the government doing to prevent possible chaos? Nothing yet. Army chief, General Anupong Phaochinda, reckons there will not be any trouble, and no bloodshed. At the same time, he also assured the public through a radio interview that there would not be a coup either.

Nobody is quite sure what basis the general - who is due to retire at the end of September, 2010 - used to predict what is to come, especially when the public has seen all along that nothing much has been done to subdue Seh Daeng.

No preventative measures have been meted out yet. Prime Minister Abhisit still takes things lightly, as if he bases his hopes on the readiness of the military; and he has yet to complete the appointment of a new police chief.

Everything is hanging in the balance. The red shirts and Thaksin might overestimate their potential and ability to mobilise enough support to hold massive rallies at various locations to force out the government. There is a slim chance of success as long as there is no widespread violence, and the military refuses to take action to quell the uprising.

At least, there will be some time yet - until mid-February - if the words of Thaksin and his thugs are to be believed. But this must terrify many people, especially business people, who have been disheartened by the red shirts' unending hate campaigns.

This time around, Abhisit's political future will be put on the line. If he survives with some bruises, it should be the end of Thaksin's attempt to return to power. From now on, Abhisit must prove that he is worthy enough to lead the country against the spectre of Thaksin's political cronies ousted by court decisions.

If he can prove a higher degree of leadership and take full charge, he will not fight the battle alone - failing which, he will be another part of Thailand's tragic history.

Here is a picture of Thaksin with the rogue Major General Khattiya Sawasdiphol during their meeting in December 2009:

The right wing fascist out of control

has been killed by tomatocops.

In my memory I saw footages of a Police Van to stop in front of a Hotel with good Sniper position.

A journalist affirmed it.

But don't ask me for correct quoting.

We have Mr. Buchholz, his databank is correct, (he misuse it sometimes for his own ego, but I accep it for the work he does)

Care to expand on this, Lungmi?

[waza]

phiphidon,,,,

I'm not having a go at you It's just that a democrat spokesman made a point of stating that Thaksin did say that and specifically to Kates parents. That is not just dirty politics, that is filthy politics.

I may be wrong but didnt Thaksin say something like that or dedicate the let it be song to her. I believe it was in Laos or Cambodia. Something like, Let it go cos I am more important. But dont quote me

[rubl]

One of the few honourable and most honest Thai's that is involved with the governance of what could be an awesome country.

Comparing the morals and values of Abhisit against Thaksin or any many of the Shinwatra's is like chalk and cheese.

Abhisit personal assets are around 55 Millions. For a guy who never worked a single day of his life.

And you can imagine how much money is under his wife name ...

Truly a man of the people

How much has mega socialist ''Red'' Ken Livingstone got under his belt.?

Some people are more clever in selecting their parents, I guess.

BTW I don't think dear member JurgenG is suggesting something not quiet correct going on with k. Abhisit's or his wife's millions. I mean till now no one has questioned his (frequent) asset declarations.

Anyway, even with k. Abhisit saying to back a probe it's really interesting to notice that even with Dept. PM Pol. Captain eager to provide new info in a few weeks time, there is no real movement. Makes you wonder if the current government is just as eager to forget it's role as the previous government

[metisdead]

A number of off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[Insight]

It's completely off-topic, but I'd love to (finally) see some photos of these "armed PAD" lot.

There are pictures of armed red shirts aplenty.

I posted several pics and reports on a thread over a year ago...

Did any of them show as purported in this thread.... machine guns?

.

No, don't think I found any pics of anything more than handguns... but they had at least one (found in the car of one of the leader's bodyguards): http://www.nationmul...on_30090406.php

To my mind it's inconceivable that they didn't have more of such weaponry. After all they stated they were willing to defend any crackdown using as much violence as necessary, using human shields as protection. I don't know what would've happened if the army had moved in, but it surely would've been akin to the UDD protests, if not worse... (given the protesters were tightly packed in the airport, women and families alongside more violent types - unlike, for the most part anyway, the UDD protests where the families sat at the stage and young men fought the military elsewhere). But any military crackdown on the PAD was out of the question anyway, and that's something to be thankful for.

"For the most part" - so the obvious, well known incident was completely isolated?

I had a quick hunt for your post a year ago for the pics featuring the PAD using handguns, but couldn't find anything. Would be nice to see something a little more concrete, beyond opinions of possible outcomes that never were. Even the odd solid reference to what they supposedly stated wouldn't hurt.

[phiphidon]

"For the most part" - so the obvious, well known incident was completely isolated?

I had a quick hunt for your post a year ago for the pics featuring the PAD using handguns, but couldn't find anything. Would be nice to see something a little more concrete, beyond opinions of possible outcomes that never were. Even the odd solid reference to what they supposedly stated wouldn't hurt.

Would a video help?

[rubl]

That peaceful time...............as defined by him. One mysterious bomb blast or one M79 fired from who knows, all bets are off. Please excuse my cynicism.

Cynicism excused, memory gaps also

[KireB]

<p>

"For the most part" - so the obvious, well known incident was completely isolated?

I had a quick hunt for your post a year ago for the pics featuring the PAD using handguns, but couldn't find anything. Would be nice to see something a little more concrete, beyond opinions of possible outcomes that never were. Even the odd solid reference to what they supposedly stated wouldn't hurt.

Would a video help?

I kind of thought you would post this, so 'well' an done-sided informed you are.This is the infamous Vibhavadi Road attack on the Yellows on their way to Don Muang by thugs coming from the side soi's. Please take into your well informed consideration the timing of this incident, the Yellows had to leave their camps because of the nightly bombings and grenade attacks that took many victims. They were under assault and decided to go to Don Muang to change their setting of protest. Hey, if you lob grenades at me every night, you too can expect me to carry a defensive weapon! Not that I am in favor of violence, but in the perspective of the events at that time, you could wait for this to happen. David against Goliath still!How about this videos, to put this last expression in perspective: http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=9478

[KireB]

"For the most part" - so the obvious, well known incident was completely isolated?

I had a quick hunt for your post a year ago for the pics featuring the PAD using handguns, but couldn't find anything. Would be nice to see something a little more concrete, beyond opinions of possible outcomes that never were. Even the odd solid reference to what they supposedly stated wouldn't hurt.

Would a video help?

I kind of thought you would post this, so 'well' an one-sided informed you are.This is the infamous Vibhavadi Road attack on the Yellows on their way to Don Muang by thugs coming from the side soi's. Please take into your well informed consideration the timing of this incident, the Yellows had to leave their camps because of the nightly bombings and grenade attacks that took many victims. They were under assault and decided to go to Don Muang to change their setting of protest. Hey, if you lob grenades at me every night, you too can expect me to carry a defensive weapon! Not that I am in favor of violence, but in the perspective of the events at that time, you could wait for this to happen. David against Goliath still!How about this video, to put this last expression in perspective:http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=9478

</p>

[Emptyset]

No, don't think I found any pics of anything more than handguns... but they had at least one (found in the car of one of the leader's bodyguards): http://www.nationmul...on_30090406.php

To my mind it's inconceivable that they didn't have more of such weaponry. After all they stated they were willing to defend any crackdown using as much violence as necessary, using human shields as protection. I don't know what would've happened if the army had moved in, but it surely would've been akin to the UDD protests, if not worse... (given the protesters were tightly packed in the airport, women and families alongside more violent types - unlike, for the most part anyway, the UDD protests where the families sat at the stage and young men fought the military elsewhere). But any military crackdown on the PAD was out of the question anyway, and that's something to be thankful for.

"For the most part" - so the obvious, well known incident was completely isolated?

I had a quick hunt for your post a year ago for the pics featuring the PAD using handguns, but couldn't find anything. Would be nice to see something a little more concrete, beyond opinions of possible outcomes that never were. Even the odd solid reference to what they supposedly stated wouldn't hurt.

How could 'for the most part' mean 'completely isolated'? Obviously it means that there were some exceptions. Anyway, IIRC Freakingcat himself said that the guy was just an idiot, and that he probably wasn't intending to use the baby as a human shield. God knows what he thought he was doing, but a lone crazy is obviously different from the talk of using human shields systematically: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/11/27/us-thailand-protest-idUKTRE4AO4TX20081127

Could post more on this but as it's OT, I won't... I did find the thread with the pictures though, see my two posts near the bottom: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/443772-red-shirts-promise-rally-of-unprecedented-numbers/page__st__100

[Buchholz]

May 17, 2010

TIME magazine

One of the most troubling aspects of the escalating political confrontation in Thailand is the children it places in harm's way. Leaders of the anti-government protest movement on Sunday spurned calls to remove children and the elderly from their sit-in in central Bangkok, even as soldiers surrounded their protest site and exchanges of gunfire left two dozen people dead on the capital's streets.

"Yes, I know it is dangerous, and I know there are children here," said Nattawut Saikua, one of the leaders of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, the anti-government group more commonly known as the Red Shirts.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1989543,00.html#ixzz1tA5BUHFY

Edited April 26, 2012 by Buchholz

[hyperdimension]

But why did they even protest in the first place demanding elections, when there would be elections anyway after the Democrat-led government's term expires? The end result probably would have been the same whether they got early elections or not - Thaksin re-taking power - except if they had waited for the government's term to expire then those who had died would probably be still alive. In the end, was it all worth it?

I know some people may mention the annual military reshuffle as a possible reason, but I'd like to hear your response.

Yes,both the military shuffle and the sense of injustice of having their elections stolen from them, be it by the army or the constitutional courts. As far as they are concerned the constitutional court judges were put in place by the military junta so a double whammy if you like.

But why the rush when there would be elections anyway? Was it really necessary and worth it to risk injury or death simply in order to have elections a little earlier?

Can you answer the question?

Looking at the big picture, the 2010 protests and consequent injuries and deaths were unnecessary. All that turmoil was for and by Thaksin. He is the one who is ultimately responsible for all deaths, injuries and damages. He could have waited until the government's term expired to re-take power via an election and attractive populist policies, but instead he took the violent route, scheming with such characters as Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol in December 2009 (as described in Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown), knowing clearly that people will die, and then using those deaths as leverage against his opponents. How can you or anyone defend this madman?

[phiphidon]

But why did they even protest in the first place demanding elections, when there would be elections anyway after the Democrat-led government's term expires? The end result probably would have been the same whether they got early elections or not - Thaksin re-taking power - except if they had waited for the government's term to expire then those who had died would probably be still alive. In the end, was it all worth it?

I know some people may mention the annual military reshuffle as a possible reason, but I'd like to hear your response.

Yes,both the military shuffle and the sense of injustice of having their elections stolen from them, be it by the army or the constitutional courts. As far as they are concerned the constitutional court judges were put in place by the military junta so a double whammy if you like.

But why the rush when there would be elections anyway? Was it really necessary and worth it to risk injury or death simply in order to have elections a little earlier?

Can you answer the question?

Looking at the big picture, the 2010 protests and consequent injuries and deaths were unnecessary. All that turmoil was for and by Thaksin. He is the one who is ultimately responsible for all deaths, injuries and damages. He could have waited until the government's term expired to re-take power via an election and attractive populist policies, but instead he took the violent route, scheming with such characters as Major General Khattiya Sawasdipol in December 2009 (as described in Rogue generals on Thaksin's payroll cry for final showdown), knowing clearly that people will die, and then using those deaths as leverage against his opponents. How can you or anyone defend this madman?

Who you talking to,me? If it's me I've already answered it. How can you defend a government that used its own (specific) troops on its citizens, used snipers, used live fire zones and then lied throughout?

Don't bother answering, I've heard it ad nauseam on here.

[phiphidon]

I suggest you get out more and take a look around, you'll see this every day, anywhere in Thailand. Try and think about a connection of the mindset displayed Buchholz and you just might see a link and it's got eff all to do with whether it's red shirts or b/s human shield reports.

Got it.

TIME Magazine equals BS reports.

Phiphidon tangential nonsense trying to dismiss Red Shirt human shields as common everyday Thai behavior equals truth.... as in "Truth Today"

.

The only mention of human shields - such an emotive subject, just made for magazine articles - was made by the writer of the article. It was denied quite rightly. I presume you read the quotes of the parents - they all said they wouldn't go even if the Red Shirt Leaders told them to. The only reason it was dangerous was because there were 20,000 troops determined to break the place down. &lt;deleted&gt; It was dangerous if you went to the officially approved sanctuary of the Wat, 6 people were shot dead there.

[Buchholz]

I suggest you get out more and take a look around, you'll see this every day, anywhere in Thailand. Try and think about a connection of the mindset displayed Buchholz and you just might see a link and it's got eff all to do with whether it's red shirts or b/s human shield reports.

Got it.

TIME Magazine equals BS reports.

Phiphidon tangential nonsense trying to dismiss Red Shirt human shields as common everyday Thai behavior equals truth.... as in "Truth Today"

.

The only mention of human shields - such an emotive subject, just made for magazine articles - was made by the writer of the article. It was denied quite rightly. I presume you read the quotes of the parents - they all said they wouldn't go even if the Red Shirt Leaders told them to. The only reason it was dangerous was because there were 20,000 troops determined to break the place down. &lt;deleted&gt; It was dangerous if you went to the officially approved sanctuary of the Wat, 6 people were shot dead there.

And so we are led to believe that Nattawut asked them to go, then said no, and that was the end of it.

yeah right, ok.

So whether it's the moronic Nattawut who allegedly just accepted this or the moronic parents who kept their children in this dangerous area, one or both entities are morons and irresponsible in their use of children and elderly as human shields.

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Edited April 26, 2012 by Buchholz

[Skywalker69]

I suggest you get out more and take a look around, you'll see this every day, anywhere in Thailand. Try and think about a connection of the mindset displayed Buchholz and you just might see a link and it's got eff all to do with whether it's red shirts or b/s human shield reports.

Got it.

TIME Magazine equals BS reports.

Phiphidon tangential nonsense trying to dismiss Red Shirt human shields as common everyday Thai behavior equals truth.... as in "Truth Today"

.

The only mention of human shields - such an emotive subject, just made for magazine articles - was made by the writer of the article. It was denied quite rightly. I presume you read the quotes of the parents - they all said they wouldn't go even if the Red Shirt Leaders told them to. The only reason it was dangerous was because there were 20,000 troops determined to break the place down. &lt;deleted&gt; It was dangerous if you went to the officially approved sanctuary of the Wat, 6 people were shot dead there.

So why were there kids inside the Reds camp?

[Buchholz]

May 17, 2010

TIME magazine

One of the most troubling aspects of the escalating political confrontation in Thailand is the children it places in harm's way. Leaders of the anti-government protest movement on Sunday spurned calls to remove children and the elderly from their sit-in in central Bangkok, even as soldiers surrounded their protest site and exchanges of gunfire left two dozen people dead on the capital's streets.

"Yes, I know it is dangerous, and I know there are children here," said Nattawut Saikua, one of the leaders of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, the anti-government group more commonly known as the Red Shirts.

Read more: http://www.time.com/...l#ixzz1tA5BUHFY

OK, so we've got Nattawud saying that they'd privately encouraged women with children to leave, but apparently they wanted to stay (it was still wrong of course, but when the army reached Ratchaprasong, the leaders gave up, sparing further bloodshed)...

actually most of the Red Shirt Leaders ran away and became fugitives

Edited to add:

As per multiple post deletions earlier, this thread is about the events of 2010 and the Red Shirts.

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Perhaps you should have thought about that before posting a link to an contentious article about "human shields".

The article from the nearly 100 year-old, largest weekly news magazine in the world is in regards to 2010 and Red Shirts and on-topic.

The never-ending, despite many earlier post deletions, discussion of earlier PAD events is not.

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[rubl]

The OP "we're all responsable, some more, some less".

The translation for some seems "Abhisit is guilty", for some "UDD did it". The interesting part is a lack of progress in the investigation under the former and under the new government. An amnesty before too many dirty details get known to the general public. Army firing thousands of life rounds into densely packed protesters, grenades lobbed on non-red-shirts, k. Thaksin standing (far) behind the red-shirts he doesn't know, k. Suthep blundering, k. Nattawut angry the Dem's use the 'sacred' grounds of Ratchaprasong for an election campaign.

Well, at least one thing should be clear, our PM is innocent in all this