Thai Parliament Quarrel Escalates In Hitler Salute

[Throatwobbler]

On a lighter note. One of the favourite things that I have seen here was a motorbike with a big Hello kitty sticker on it. Written by the sticker was Heil Kitty. Made me wonder what sort of dictator she would be.

[Throatwobbler]

eh no, i just don't think the house speaker is the most worrying aspect of this incident.

They are both worrying aspects. You just seem very happy to brush one of them under the carpet and not talk about it.

As for which is the most worrying aspect. One is an individual from a party. One is the speaker of the house whose responsibility it is to hold debates in a fair manner. Different people will draw different conclusions.

an mp, nazi saluting and shouting heil hitler in parliament seems worse than a house speaker shushing an mp, yes.

i'm not brushing anything under the carpet..

Was the guy worshipping Hitler or was he making a point that he felt he was in a Hitler regime. Big difference and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Throatwobbler

[volk666]

Parliament here is a toothless talking-shop. The real power lies elsewhere as it always has done. Some silly little MP has a temper tantrum and throws teddy out the pram and a couple of stiff arm salutes.

Pathetic and irrelevant, being discussed by a group on non-voters. Next?

Correct, except govt supporters beginning with the blogger Saksith decided to make it into "Democrats worship Nazis in parliament" issue which it never was.

..

Ironically, in one of the parallel threads a govt supporter argues that this govt draws its legitimacy from parliamentary majority, thanks for stating it clearly that parliament means nothing in the overall scheme of things. It gives the dominating powers a lot of leverage, though.

[Throatwobbler]

Can anyone point to any guidelines or rules that gives the Speaker of the House the right to prohibit a speaker from finishing their allocated time or the right to ridicule them - all without pointing to what procedure or rule they use to deny them the right?

Well in the UK the speaker of the House

"presides over the House's debates, determining which members may speak. The Speaker is also responsible for maintaining order during debate, and may punish members who break the rules of the House."

Wiki, I know, but difficult to argue against the definition.

Yes but you'll find the speaker of the house in th UK is impartial.

What do you know about the impartiality of the Speaker of the UK's House of Commons? He/she is selected by the House but has previous service as an MP from one political party or another; indeed it is accepted practice that in a general election that he/she will be elected unopposed. You seem to be saying that the Thai parliament is different and that the rules of debate here are not followed. Do you have evidence to substantiate this?

From what party did the previos Thai Speaker come?

Well for a start look at Betty Boothroyd. Former labour MP who served as a speaker under both Conservative and Labour governments. I'd say that's some impartiality right there.

And you do know who the last Thai House speaker was don't you?

[whybother]

the original post... kinda yeah.

Right, so he went from tongue in cheek to serious, both saying the Democrats were nazis.

yup

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[nurofiend]

eh no, i just don't think the house speaker is the most worrying aspect of this incident.

They are both worrying aspects. You just seem very happy to brush one of them under the carpet and not talk about it.

As for which is the most worrying aspect. One is an individual from a party. One is the speaker of the house whose responsibility it is to hold debates in a fair manner. Different people will draw different conclusions.

an mp, nazi saluting and shouting heil hitler in parliament seems worse than a house speaker shushing an mp, yes.

i'm not brushing anything under the carpet..

Was the guy worshipping Hitler or was he making a point that he felt he was in a Hitler regime. Big difference and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

how am i implying that i don't see the difference?

all you have to do is read the thread first before you offer the condescending sympathies.

[nurofiend]

an mp, nazi saluting and shouting heil hitler in parliament seems worse than a house speaker shushing an mp, yes...

But that's not what really happened, is it?

Right from the start this topic should read:

"Frustrated opposition MP addresses House Speaker as Hitler and gives him a Nazi salute."

it is what really happened!!!!

an mp, nazi saluted and shouted heil hitler in parliament... just because i don't say that the poor little guy was frustrated in my post or give the reason why the idiot acted like this as a means of excuse, doesn't make what i said 'not really what happened'

i find you're the one trying to polish it up by your language in that post - 'addresses house speaker' - i would call it 'shouts at'.

[rubl]

Since obviously the Democrat MP wasn't saying (and wouldn't say) anything along the proper, democratic majority line of thinking (aka 'Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai accts') it was only proper and democratically just that the Speaker of the House cut the said MP's microphone and tried to ignore his non-party-line remarks indicating "can't hear, can't see, blimey what about the third monkey".

It's amazing that the opposition MPs still dare to be opposing. Don't they understand that the (vast) majority has spoken and therefor opposing this majority is close to sacrilege, undemocratic, and can even be interpreted as anti-Thaksin [sic]. One would have expected a much better understanding of how a democracy should work, given that the Democrats are led by this British educated person k. Abhisit (even though he might have been spoiled a wee bit in those few years studying in Oxford)

[Buchholz]

the original post... kinda yeah.

Right, so he went from tongue in cheek to serious, both saying the Democrats were nazis.

yup

+ 1

.

[fishhooks]

Heading toward 300 posts.

Think I heard about that many "KRUPS" uttered during the interchange, surely a new record there anyway!

[phiphidon]

Heading toward 300 posts.

Think I heard about that many "KRUPS" uttered during the interchange, surely a new record there anyway!

Krup.

Let's hope the poor man has got over his "temporary insanity" deliberately provoked by that nasty Speaker of the House and will be back smiling and ready to take his place in the discussion the next time they sit.

Oh, and if he doesn't throw a hissy fit the next time he doesn't get his way, perhaps people will take him seriously as a politician and not someone with a napolean complex, someone who is willing to take his part in the forming of the Countrys next Constitution.

Edited May 6, 2012 by phiphidon

[mca]

This fact, however, is used to mask the behavior of the House Speaker who deliberately drove poor MP to temporary insanity.

"deliberately drove poor MP to temporary insanity"

Made my day that comment. Volks mate. Cheers.

[volk666]

Right, there could be only one Napoleon per House and the position is already taken. Poor MP, however, addressed him as Hitler. Big mistake.

And no, the MP didn't go around saluting walls or his friends and there was no "nazi saluting" going on in parliament.

The MP called Speaker a Hitler, addressed him as Hitler, compared him to Hitler - take you pick.

He also wasn't saluting Nazis, he saluted the Speaker.

And another point - people get elected to parliament precisely so that they can "have their way" - express their views and opinions, it's not only their right but also their duty.

You can't "shush" people's representatives and call it a democracy, oh, wait, you can and you do.

[pastitche]

Yes but you'll find the speaker of the house in th UK is impartial.

What do you know about the impartiality of the Speaker of the UK's House of Commons? He/she is selected by the House but has previous service as an MP from one political party or another; indeed it is accepted practice that in a general election that he/she will be elected unopposed. You seem to be saying that the Thai parliament is different and that the rules of debate here are not followed. Do you have evidence to substantiate this?

From what party did the previos Thai Speaker come?

Well for a start look at Betty Boothroyd. Former labour MP who served as a speaker under both Conservative and Labour governments. I'd say that's some impartiality right there.

And you do know who the last Thai House speaker was don't you?

And Betty Boothroyd was impartial in spite of her previous political allegiance as were her predecessors and successors, so we are in agreement on that; I responded to the implied and unsubstantiated suggestion that the Thai parliament did not adhere to this convention. Without respect for the Speaker's authority, parliamentary business could not be carried out. Unlimited time for debate is obviously impossible, there is negotiation with party managers (whips) and it is part of the Speaker's duties to enforce the time limitation. If an individual MP disagrees with that he is not entitled to challenge the Speaker's authority

In Westminster such behaviour (cf Michael Heseltine's and Ron Brown's offences of seizing the mace) would be regarded as disrespect of parliament and of the Speaker, On both occasions this was condemned by all parties and both were forced to apologise).

Edited May 6, 2012 by pastitche

[volk666]

The offended MP thought his allotted time was cut short.

I don't know how to show respect to a person in power who cuts off your mike, says he can't hear you, and when you approach turns his face away and says he can't see you either.

If they expect unquestioning obedience than a couple of nazi salutes are definitely in order, or should they prostrate themselves on the ground and touch his feet instead?

[pastitche]

The offended MP thought his allotted time was cut short.

I don't know how to show respect to a person in power who cuts off your mike, says he can't hear you, and when you approach turns his face away and says he can't see you either.

If they expect unquestioning obedience than a couple of nazi salutes are definitely in order, or should they prostrate themselves on the ground and touch his feet instead?

I'm not sure where you got the information that he thought his allotted time was cut short. Perhaps you can tell me.

It is perhaps an old-fashioned idea but it is the office of the Speaker which demands respect, not the individual who holds that office at any one time. If the Speaker is to be deemed unfit for that office, it is parliament's job to remove him but respect must always be paid to the office.

This MP's actions are undeniably outwith the bounds of acceptable parliamentary behaviour; whether you and others believe that the Speaker was impartial or not is totally irrelevant. Such is parliamentary convention.

[EyesWideOpen]

Well, as long as we are on a Hitler theme, this quote from Hitler applies pretty well to the current operation of this government......

The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one.

[geriatrickid]

The offended MP thought his allotted time was cut short.

I don't know how to show respect to a person in power who cuts off your mike, says he can't hear you, and when you approach turns his face away and says he can't see you either.

If they expect unquestioning obedience than a couple of nazi salutes are definitely in order, or should they prostrate themselves on the ground and touch his feet instead?

The response from the Speaker was a lot tamer tha has been seen in other parliaments where MPs were escorted out of the House. You cannot be insolent or disrespectful to the Speaker. No matter how much one disagrees with a Speaker, the Speaker represents the Parliament and every MP is obliged to show respect for the institution.

If the MP has a complaint, he should have brought it before Parliament, by way of the existing oversight commitee. That is the procedure.

[h90]

The offended MP thought his allotted time was cut short.

I don't know how to show respect to a person in power who cuts off your mike, says he can't hear you, and when you approach turns his face away and says he can't see you either.

If they expect unquestioning obedience than a couple of nazi salutes are definitely in order, or should they prostrate themselves on the ground and touch his feet instead?

The response from the Speaker was a lot tamer tha has been seen in other parliaments where MPs were escorted out of the House. You cannot be insolent or disrespectful to the Speaker. No matter how much one disagrees with a Speaker, the Speaker represents the Parliament and every MP is obliged to show respect for the institution.

If the MP has a complaint, he should have brought it before Parliament, by way of the existing oversight commitee. That is the procedure.

The majority of MPs no matter what party, the Minister and the the higher bureaucracy is complete corrupt and criminal (the majority not all)....whoever show respect to them is an idiot......

Heil Hitler shouting is surely the wrong thing....telling the corruption is not possible with the restrictions of free speech in Thailand as you get sued immediately.

But still no reason to respect the house speaker.......

Edited May 6, 2012 by h90

[volk666]

Not once the Speaker said "Your time is up", not once he gave any valid reason for taking the mike from the MP.

And was is it the office or the individual that turned his face away and said "I can't hear you, I can't see you either"?

Nazi salute is also a form of expressing respect, if you demand one so strongly.

In this case the MP felt he had no other choice but to subjugate his will and his rights to what he saw as Hitleresque behavior of the Speaker. He decided that the only label appropriate for this relationship was that of a Nazi salute and he wasn't factually wrong, just socially unacceptable.

Enough kicking this horse, people who jumped on the occasion to declare that Democrats go around saluting Nazis have had their fun already. For a while they ignored the obvious sarcasm but now they are just digging their heels.

Should the MP be punished? I don't know and I don't care, I hope the Speaker would be more careful and even handed in the future, that's all, or it might lead to opposition walking out of the parliament for good and that won't be good for anybody.

[nurofiend]

Not once the Speaker said "Your time is up", not once he gave any valid reason for taking the mike from the MP.

And was is it the office or the individual that turned his face away and said "I can't hear you, I can't see you either"?

Nazi salute is also a form of expressing respect, if you demand one so strongly.

In this case the MP felt he had no other choice but to subjugate his will and his rights to what he saw as Hitleresque behavior of the Speaker. He decided that the only label appropriate for this relationship was that of a Nazi salute and he wasn't factually wrong, just socially unacceptable.

Enough kicking this horse, people who jumped on the occasion to declare that Democrats go around saluting Nazis have had their fun already. For a while they ignored the obvious sarcasm but now they are just digging their heels.

Should the MP be punished? I don't know and I don't care, I hope the Speaker would be more careful and even handed in the future, that's all, or it might lead to opposition walking out of the parliament for good and that won't be good for anybody.

i think you might be misunterstanding the phrase 'nazi salute'... what he did was a 'nazi salute'.. it's a figure of speech.

it doesn't mean his salute was aimed at the nazi's as a mark of respect to them... that would be 'saluting the nazi's'

and you obviously do care.. you've been doing a humourous job of continually defending it.

if you and others want people to stop kicking a dead horse, then stop coming along defending it.

[volk666]

I can probably dig up a few posts from this thread where people compared this incident to school students donning Nazi uniforms for a school parade so yeah, "nazi salute" WAS understood as "saluting the nazis", and the original article was actually aiming at creating this impression.

I'm not defending the MP, whatever punishment they decide to dole out is his and I won't say a thing, I'm saying that his outburst was provoked by the Speaker and unless the Speaker changes his ways there will be more protests to come, hopefully not as bizarre as this one.

It's the Speaker who sets the tone of the debate in parliament and it's his responsibility to maintain it civil just like it's teacher's responsibility to maintain the discipline, not the students. The Speaker can get opposition MPs to cooperate or he can alienate them, it's HIS choice and it matters much more than any individual MP misdemeanor.

Again, I'm not defending the MP, I don't think calling other people Hitler should be punishable but if, according to House rules, it is, let him take it like a man. Incidentally, in the video he voluntarily surrendered himself to stewards who showed up to escort him out.

It's the Speaker who stayed on and it's the Speaker's reaction that will determine the course of parliamentary debate until the next elections. I hope he won't antagonize the opposition any further.

[Thaddeus]

If the MP has a complaint, he should have brought it before Parliament, by way of the existing oversight commitee. That is the procedure.

And that would have achieved what?

I'll tell you the answer, absolutely nothing.

The only way to show this bunch of clowns in their true colours is to ridicule them.

This parliament is a group of almost very rich, almost very powerful, and almost have total control.

If the only way to show the general populace how much they care about them is to illustrate how much they care, or how little, about their same social standing opponents then it is gloves off time, the rest of the world will view this as the farce it is.

Next headline.

"He pinched me and said 'tick. you're it"

Children, bless 'em.

[nurofiend]

I can probably dig up a few posts from this thread where people compared this incident to school students donning Nazi uniforms for a school parade so yeah, "nazi salute" WAS understood as "saluting the nazis", and the original article was actually aiming at creating this impression.

I'm not defending the MP, whatever punishment they decide to dole out is his and I won't say a thing, I'm saying that his outburst was provoked by the Speaker and unless the Speaker changes his ways there will be more protests to come, hopefully not as bizarre as this one.

It's the Speaker who sets the tone of the debate in parliament and it's his responsibility to maintain it civil just like it's teacher's responsibility to maintain the discipline, not the students. The Speaker can get opposition MPs to cooperate or he can alienate them, it's HIS choice and it matters much more than any individual MP misdemeanor.

Again, I'm not defending the MP, I don't think calling other people Hitler should be punishable but if, according to House rules, it is, let him take it like a man. Incidentally, in the video he voluntarily surrendered himself to stewards who showed up to escort him out.

It's the Speaker who stayed on and it's the Speaker's reaction that will determine the course of parliamentary debate until the next elections. I hope he won't antagonize the opposition any further.

I can probably dig up a few posts from this thread where people compared this incident to school students donning Nazi uniforms for a school parade so yeah, "nazi salute" WAS understood as "saluting the nazis", and the original article was actually aiming at creating this impression.

and i can probably dig up a lot more posts where people understand that it was meant as an insult to the house speaker,

naturally some people would bring up the school parade... it doesn't mean they think they are an equivelant of each other.

from what i remember those post were about general thai ignorance to nazism and not to say they were both the same in their saluting of the nazi's, as you seem to be surmising.

there is a big difference in the language of " a man doing a nazi salute" than a man "saluting the nazi's" as to what they each suggest.

you were making it out as if the only reason people 'jumped on this' was because they were ignoring that it was sarcasm, and that's just not true.

Again, I'm not defending the MP

:

This fact, however, is used to mask the behavior of the House Speaker who deliberately drove poor MP to temporary insanity.

[rubl]

This topic of a Hitler Salute in Thai parliament has seen many interesting interpretations. From 'sarcasm' via 'really annoyed' to 'undemocratic'. A few posters seem able to contradict themselves, but probably only because I misunderstand the 'sarcasm' part.

Democracy, Pheu Thai style. From the OP #1:

"Reports say that before parliament was about to decide [on a proposal], a little bit of chaos ensued when MP Boonyod Sukthinthai of the Democrat Party raised his hand to protest House speaker Somsak's hasty attempts to end [the session], but the latter refused to listen and proceeded to the voting, leading to Mr Boonyod yelling loudly that he will protest until the speaker will listen to him, as he then shouted "Heil Hitler, Mr Speaker of the dictatorship! Heil Hitler!" – to which Mr Somsak still refuses to listen and requests the parliament to cast in their votes."

Mind you, maybe the member posting this earlier on had the right sense of humour:"thank God for Chalerm and his ear medicine incident eh, because everytime a democrat makes a fool out of himself in parliament, people are sure bring it straight into the thread."

[volk666]

I don't imagine anyone is patient enough to read through all these nested quotes but I will reiterate - I don't care what punishment will be given to the MP in question, I care about what the parliament Speaker did to be saluted as Hitler and whether or not he will continue this line of managing the House.

Personally I don't think that emotional outbursts comparing someone to Hitler is a punishable offense but it's not up to me to decide, I hope they don't propose hanging Boonyat like they did to Nut for looking at a picture of girl on his phone but who knows... Maybe they'll suggest Boonyat should be gassed instead of hanged.

[TAWP]

The activities of the ruling elite and their SS stormtroopers in the Democrat party in murdering 90+ people in 2010, should leave you unsurprised that that K. Boonyod should use the phrase 'Heil Hitler' -He's got an audience though: a number of hi-so kids are going through a Hitler is Cool period at the moment.

If one party (of a coalition) is responsible for all deaths during an event due to policy then that means that Thaksin and TRT was responsible for 2500+ deaths during the drug-crackdown.

Thaksin's drug crackdown was wildly popular with the Thai public and the drug smugglers themselves are responsible for the deaths of countless Thai kids, whereas the deaths caused by the Democrat government, were of ordinary Thais protesting against the usurping of power by the Democrats after their friends in the judiciary banned the PPP party without a proper trial on order to end the illegal occupation of the airport by the Ruling Elites shock troops the Yellow Shirts (Blackshirts?) And yes, this does smack of Nazism

If you honestly think all deaths during the drug-crackdown was by drug-dealers then one could argue that all deaths from the 2010-riot-crackdown was all due to the rioters themselves. Hey, you have no problem stating incorrect facts in one direction (including your very odd perception of why PPP was banned)...let's go for the full set.

[sparebox2]

Thaksin must not be associated with Hitler.

He is a very evil man.

[h90]

Thaksin must not be associated with Hitler.

He is a very evil man.

which one these two?

[pastitche]

Thaksin must not be associated with Hitler.

He is a very evil man.

which one these two?

I think that you can tell the difference between a man whose regime was responsible for industrially-engineered genocide and Thaksin.