Sue Paypal In Thailand

[dave111223]

I would be most critical of your rep. She knows what an important customer you are and needs to figure out who is in charge of calling a business a fraud then sheneeds to take that person and visit your company to look at your goods personally. Make sure that she knows that if she doesn't then you will take action and her job is on the line.

Yes it really shows how pointless and useless the Asia business reps. are...but it's not like we didn't already know that...

For example the Thai rep called us in December (right after the massive flooding shut our shop down for a month) and asked "how come your sales are down"...DUH!

But they don't even have the power to tell us the status of our case, other than "someone's working on it".

The worst part is that I can guarantee if the account gets turned back on the same rep. will be calling us in a month wondering why we aren't processing orders through them anymore

[phl]

Which also creates another problem, if you sell from Thailand but money goes into USA,1. how do you explain it to IRS , 2. you would be hit with tax there

Note really a problem as it appears most processors just get you to fill out a "W-8Ben" form and this appears to take care of the IRS problem.

One other option is to open business account in Thailand and get a credit card machine.

Build an online processor(secured) and charge cards manually.

The only problem with that is, OP would be open to fraud, BUT the rate bank charges is only something like 2%-3% per transaction so the money OP may loose could be covered by the difference in processing fees

This would be an interesting option, but don't those machine require that you actually have the physically card to swipe? And I'm assuming that when you get this machine you probably have to sign an agreement with the bank that you will only use it for "physical card present" sales (plus signature required)...?

Not really. In one of my hotels we have a credit card machine and charge for bookings manually when bookings are made over the phone or booking engines such as booking.com

You can stipulate, mention that you also have over the phone sales, so this would not be a problem, HOWEVER as i mentioned it does leave you open to fraud. Because some people can place order and after receiving goods, file for a charge back.

The pros is, those people do not know if you have online payment processor or using a manual system so it minimizes the risk, but risk is still there.

But people who do practice this kind of scams usually run it irrespective of what system is used.

I have had people file for charge back with paypal after 6 months(postage receipts loose all ink after such a long period of time, so tracking info is not clear, and when it is clear, it is no longer traceable)

One just has to assume some losses for trading online, but machine is not a problem as far as i am aware, in over 3 years of trading in Thailand and charging manually never had a problem(touch wood)

[ebmzlm]

It is very frustrating when this happens. PayPal are a virtual bank, and like any other bank they earn interest on funds they hold. PayPal will hold your money for 180 days, of which they own the funds and collect interest on, through there own financial ways.

Once the 180 days or near enough once PayPal are satisfied your funds will be released, and you will be able to withdraw the funds back to your account.

This has happened to me many times (self inflicted). I have never lost the money.

Don't worry to much. Find a friend or family member you can trust and open a new PayPal account, and start selling again.

Thanks

[dave111223]

After 2 weeks we finally got the account unlocked...of course no restitution for 2 weeks of hell they put our business through.

I cleared the account out to $0 the minute it was unlocked.

I hope they will miss the $1000 a month in fees we used to pay them, as I'll be damned if I ever trust them even 1 baht again (that is of course until 2Checkout tries to pull the same thing, knock on wood )

Edited May 21, 2012 by dave111223

[ScottMallon]

Depending on your market, you could try money bookers and neteller. Also dependent on your market schemes like ucash or Paysafe card all of which are simple to deal with and won't involve themselves in your business.

Getting your own credit card merchant account is a good option but adds a level of complexity and risk to your business that you are probably not big enough to cope with.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

I feel for you with PayPal. They tied up some of my funds many years ago and then $1000 about a year or so ago. One time it took forever to get the money and the last time it took 2 days. I don't think they have the freedom to simply keep your money without explanation that they once had, but I could be wrong.

It seems like it may be fairly simply to withdraw funds from Neteller but what I'm wondering is if it's possible to wire transfer money IN TO Neteller from a Thai bank account. I make overseas transfers approximately 5-6x per month and it's a headache to do so. The Thai banks want a copy of a website or to see emails or invoices, etc. I have a Neteller account and would like to fund it. Has anyone had any luck putting money in to Neteller?

Edited May 23, 2012 by ScottMallon

[4evermaat]

Good to see that the OP had a viable solution; I was also looking at 2CheckOut, or other payment processors who can accept paypal on your behalf. Much easier to just deal directly with a processor that has experience with paypal and can process for you. Someone else recommended looking at competitors and seeing what they use as payment processor. After reading numerous forums relating to whether or not to use paypal directly to process payments, it seems that the safest consensus is to do your best. It's still a good option when you are starting out. Don't hold too much funds in the account other than to cover near-term payments to other vendors. Then get a "real" merchant account or a more efficient 3rd party processor when the business grows.

To be fair, paypal is a business also and has risk/fraud to deal with on their end. Any Jon Doe can open an account with stolen information and make fraudulent purchases. They receive the goods and then chargebacks occur after the seemingly good transaction is already completed. Does paypal foot the bill for this? Or the vendor.

And to comment on moneybookers, looks like they still suck at customer service. But I do still see new vendors signing up with them and using them to process payments. So they are doing something right. I guess for those people who don't get flagged, they are ok. Otherwise, you use an alternative payment method.

Honestly, cash would be the best option, or something like LibertyReserve. But you may lose out on impulse buyers. Credit has its advantages, but it was never perfect to begin with. People having the ability to charge back 90-180 days or more after the original purchase date? Visa/MC have helped perpetuate this "take-back my decision" irresponsible consumer mindset. My opinion anyway; how long do you need to evaluate a product if it meets your expectations?

I had a friend in USA who owned a juice bar. He used to accept credit cards, but then made a business decision to stop and only accept cash. At first, some of his customers scoffed, but they eventually knew to bring cash with them. In that case, his business is strictly a set physical location (no online sales). Likewise there was a Thai restaurant that the Thai owner commented that 98% of her business is in credit/debit card sales; otherwise she wanted nothing more than to toss that machine out the window.

......

It seems like it may be fairly simply to withdraw funds from Neteller but what I'm wondering is if it's possible to wire transfer money IN TO Neteller from a Thai bank account. I make overseas transfers approximately 5-6x per month and it's a headache to do so. The Thai banks want a copy of a website or to see emails or invoices, etc. I have a Neteller account and would like to fund it. Has anyone had any luck putting money in to Neteller?

I thought neteller could accept credit card/debit card deposits from thailand?

[simon43]

My 10-year Paypal account was recently locked after some generous people sent me a few $$ which I used to purchase school books and equipment for a school in Myanmar - (google myanmarteachers dot org for info)

Paypal's case was not anything to do with sanctions against Myanmar. They objected to me collecting funds when I didn't have a charitable enterprise that is registered in the USA, (my Paypal account is in Thailand).

They conceded that were I using received funds for my own pleasure (wine, women etc), then they would not have an issue with it, but donating to help needy kids ==> no way!

So these funds remain locked for the next 180 days ... grrr!

Simon

Edited June 16, 2012 by simon43

[MANICMINER]

Propay have recently announced they are going global. Businesses in Thailand have often been stuck with paypal, but hopefully Propay will be be a viable option. They have been processing payments in the U.S for years, and is one of the officially accepted payment processors on ebay. The good thing about Propay is they accept credit card payments without the need to open up accounts, which is a sticking point for many people. I have had a quick look at their website and it is looking promising. Anybody wanting to process payments from Thailand should look into it.

[Dechamps]

Hello,

I am not yet to the point where I need to sue Paypal, I just need to get in touch with them and their website makes me want to bang my head on the walls...

So, I beg somebody to give me the phone number where I can call them.

The telephone number they give you on the website doesn't look anywhere like a Thail telephone number and have no success when I dial it...

Many thanks for your help, it might save my sanity!!!

Isabelle

[dave111223]

You can call their number in Singapore:

+65 6510 4683

You'll still want to bang your head against a wall, but at least you'll have a live person to yell at.

Email: [email protected]

[Fgis]

You can call their number in Singapore:

+65 6510 4683

You'll still want to bang your head against a wall, but at least you'll have a live person to yell at.

Email: [email protected]

Thanks for all yoru info.

Are you ok with 2checkout now ? Or do you have to use Paypal again ?

What did you do to unlock your account so fast ? 180 days is just a maximum but they usually proceed faster ?

Thanks again.

[dave111223]

Are you ok with 2checkout now ? Or do you have to use Paypal again ?

I have been happy with 2Checkout. Note that 2Checkout also allows customers to pay via Paypal (so customers who were previously paying with Paypal can continue to do so) but without me having to deal with Paypal bullsh*t at all.

Paypal allows you to withdrawal money any time, whereas with 2Checkout there is a weekly automatic SWIFT transfer for your entire balance. The Paypal transfer takes about 5-7 days, the 2checkout transfer takes 1-2 days.

2Checkout fees are a bit higher than Paypal (about 1% higher), and they charge you a month fee of about $11. However because 2Checkout does SWIFT transfers in USD you get the real THB exchange rate, which is about 2% better than the exchange rates on the Paypal withdrawal. Total cost-wise with all things considered it works out to about the same.

I'm talking with 2Checkout now to try and get my fees reduced, i'll post the results here as to whether they are open to negotiation.

I have had zero chargebacks with 2Checkout and they do a fraud pre-screening on all orders, so this seems to do well at catching fraudsters.

I left Paypal to spite them, but actually end up with a better solution i think.

What did you do to unlock your account so fast ? 180 days is just a maximum but they usually proceed faster ?

Called them and emailed them daily, sent lots of documents proving that they were wrong, filed a report with the BBB in California, wrote the story on any many complaint websites as I could.

And because there are only like 2 reps that handle the Thai language support my wife was able to constantly complain to the same people (no one wants to go to work and get the same irate customer calling them every day) When you call the English support it's likely the person on the other end with never have to listen to you again, it will be some other rep that has to deal next time.

[Fgis]

I think you have managed to do something at what many people failed !

To speak to a Thai the number to call is singapore ?

and Email can be sent in Thai also ?

Thanks.

[drupalinthailand]

Dear,

Any information about other payment gateways in Thailand ?

And is 2checkout any good ?

Thanks.

[dave111223]

We are still using 2checkout; almost a year now since the original problems with PayPal.

I was able to negotiate the 2checkout rates down to 3.69%. Based on our volume we would be able to get a rate of 3.2% from Paypal:

https://www.paypal.com/th/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-xborder-fees-outside&countries

However Paypal gives an exchange rates which is a couple of % off the real exchange rate, so when you factor that in the real Paypal cost is closer to 5%

I have had some troubles with 2Checkout during the time with them such as:

• Had a few stolen credit card chargebacks, and 2checkout we really useless at contesting them. We had full UPS tracking for deliveries and they still lost the chargebacks with the issuing banks, stating reason as "Card wasn't present"...(well no sh*t you offer a service for online merchants...card is never present). Even Paypal handles these better. On the plus side 2Checkout leaves the contested money in your account until the entire matter is finalized.
• 2Checkout removed their Mastercard processing for several months (back online now) and customers had to go through to Paypal if they had a mastercard, which was an inconvenience to customers.
• Their support is pretty rubbish and slow in general, if you need to contact them,...took about 2 months back and forth just over a tax form that they wanted (had to fill it in about 20 different times)

However even given these issues i'm sticking with 2checkout and will not go back to Paypal any time soon. Most of the time 2Checkout just works, you can almost forget out them completely and money just ends up in your bank, which is what i want.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Maestro
Deleted reference to a pyramid scheme

[drupalinthailand]

Thank you for your reply.

When is it possible to start negotiating fees with 2checkout or Paypal ? Which level do you need to reach first ?

What do you think about ThaiEpay ? I want to try it but I am still looking for a PHP coder ta make a 2checkout module for Drupal Ubercart shop for me, if you know any ? Then later I will report about ThaiEpay gateway (I have been accepted but cannot use it because no module exists yet!).

About chargebacks, the story is the same with every processor, even if you spend weeks or months fighting it seems that most of the time you won't get your money back. Us consumers laws are so much in favor or customers, not as in Thailand :-)

[dave111223]

You can't negotiate rates with Paypal, they already have a tiered fee schedule where the rates decreases if you have a certain sales volume:

https://www.paypal.com/th/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-xborder-fees-outside&countries

With 2Checkout you can negotiate the rates after you have been using them for at least 6 months. I would not think that they go much below the 3.5% range even for LARGE volumes (millions of $ per year)

As previously discussed in this topic i was not impressed with either Paysbuy or ThaiEPay.

2Checkout already has a module for Ubercart: https://www.2checkout.com/shopping-cart/ubercart/

[sas_cars]

We are still using 2checkout; almost a year now since the original problems with PayPal.

I was able to negotiate the 2checkout rates down to 3.69%. Based on our volume we would be able to get a rate of 3.2% from Paypal:

https://www.paypal.com/th/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-xborder-fees-outside&countries

However Paypal gives an exchange rates which is a couple of % off the real exchange rate, so when you factor that in the real Paypal cost is closer to 5%

I have had some troubles with 2Checkout during the time with them such as:

• Had a few stolen credit card chargebacks, and 2checkout we really useless at contesting them. We had full UPS tracking for deliveries and they still lost the chargebacks with the issuing banks, stating reason as "Card wasn't present"...(well no sh*t you offer a service for online merchants...card is never present). Even Paypal handles these better. On the plus side 2Checkout leaves the contested money in your account until the entire matter is finalized.
• 2Checkout removed their Mastercard processing for several months (back online now) and customers had to go through to Paypal if they had a mastercard, which was an inconvenience to customers.
• Their support is pretty rubbish and slow in general, if you need to contact them,...took about 2 months back and forth just over a tax form that they wanted (had to fill it in about 20 different times)

However even given these issues i'm sticking with 2checkout and will not go back to Paypal any time soon. Most of the time 2Checkout just works, you can almost forget out them completely and money just ends up in your bank, which is what i want.

I just opened 2Checkout Website and I see their fee is 5.5 %, not 4 % as you claim?

[dave111223]

I just opened 2Checkout Website and I see their fee is 5.5 %, not 4 % as you claim?

Hmm..looks like they changed their signup rates up. I'm sure if you contact them before you sign up and telling them your "friend that referred you to them" was able to get a rate of 3.99% when they signed up, they'll be able to offer you the same rate.

[belg]

sounds a lot like Google Adsense does... from one day to another, they can just close your account, no reason given, and their goes your money

big company with 0% chance of contacting them true email or phone

just open thai bank accounts or is this not all to legal or tax reported in the end ?

one might wonder why using paypal at all

[Fgis]

sounds a lot like Google Adsense does... from one day to another, they can just close your account, no reason given, and their goes your money

big company with 0% chance of contacting them true email or phone

just open thai bank accounts or is this not all to legal or tax reported in the end ?

one might wonder why using paypal at all

The reason for using Paypal on online stores is that many people won't buy at all if it is not possible to pay with Paypal because it is the best security for customers who can be refunded for any reason, true or fake....

[Fgis]

Hey, I just found this one, have you tried it ?

https://www.paysbuy.com/paysbuy_direct.aspx

Is it better than ThaiEpay ?

[dave111223]

Hey, I just found this one, have you tried it ?

https://www.paysbuy.com/paysbuy_direct.aspx

Is it better than ThaiEpay ?

See Post #18 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/552787-sue-paypal-in-thailand/?p=5293390

Paysbay has major issues declining credit cards.

[Fgis]

Hey, I just found this one, have you tried it ?

https://www.paysbuy.com/paysbuy_direct.aspx

Is it better than ThaiEpay ?

See Post #18 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/552787-sue-paypal-in-thailand/?p=5293390

Paysbay has major issues declining credit cards.

Thank you and sorry I read this post long time ago.

So it seems that the best chance is Siampay, at least they look professional and do not show a Thai address on the payment page.

But cannot find any feedback for international credit cards ?

Even for legit business I think customers should not clearly see that their payment is processed in Thailand or it won't look reliable (but if they really want to know they can Google Thaiepay, Paysbuy or Siampay, what many won't do and will just be happy to receive good products for cheap !)

[klubex99]

It happened to me too, many years ago. I had over $20,000 locked in there for 9 weeks, and after the review they unfroze the account. I lost a load of business and some stock as well through that.

I sought legal advice to claw back my losses and basically there is diddly squat you can do about it.

If they refuse to unfreeze your account, you WILL get your money returned after 180 days.

They then did it again to me after i mover over to LOS, this time their review went against me. The fact is, they stated the reason for the freeze is 'suspected fakes'. So I don't really know why some posters are indicating you went outside the manufacturers distribution channels, that is not the reason they stated, so no Thai reps ratted you out or anything like that.

If you can prove them to be the genuine article, they will unfreeze your account... its as simple as that.

I will never deal with them again, I have since used merchant accounts which are a load more stable.

[MAJIC]

It's been said before on a similar Topic to this one,if you are running your business through PAYPAL payments,NEVER EVER,leave money in your PAYPAL Account, except £50... $50 or whatever,purely as running costs.There are many Horror stories on the Net concerning PAYPAL,JUST Google and find out,then ask yourself ? "Is it a good idea to allow PAYPAL to have access to my money,and allow them to freeze it,over something that is trivial,or non existant"?

OK I'm feeling generous today here's the link! the list of complaints and reasons for hijacking your account go on and on,as you will see!

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=chr-greentree_ie&ei=utf-8&ilc=12&type=642886&p=paypal+froze+my+account

Edited April 3, 2013 by MAJIC

[Phronesis]

www.PayPalSucks.com/faqs.shtml

[Fortunate]

Hi,

I don’t think you’ll get anything out of suing Paypal. It’s too big for anyones good. Too big to dance with You will most likely spend much, much more money than you lost doing this. I would go Paysbuy if I were you, as they accept many types of creditcards and accept many currencies. If you don’t like the Thai address, it should be easy to talk to them about this and ask for the option of not showing the Thai address as they are right there were you are – locally in Thailand.

[Pokerstar]

Never use PayPal they are a bunch of thieves, if someone make a chargeback on you, they will go after you not the other guy. You are the one responsible to pay if something goes wrong. There is people who has had $40k frozen and never got them back. Here u can get some info http://www.screw-paypal.com/

[RupertIII]

Even e-bay will no longer accept paypal! http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/why-we-no-longer-accept-paypal/10000000004886437/g.html