1988 Lockerbie Bomber Al-Megrahi Dies In Tripoli

[chuckd]

Here is your starter for 10.

The only thing that connected Megrahi to Lockerbie was some clothing bought in Malta which was allegedly in the suitcase with the bomb in it. The key witness to the whole case it was found later received a 3 Million USD payout from the US Government. From 'The Guardian' in the UK, not really a newspaper associated with conspiracy. ChuckD it took 30 seconds to find

http://www.guardian....ahi?INTCMP=SRCH

And then here, an excellent review from Gareth Pierce a Defence Lawyer concerning a book written on the Pam Am 103 incident. This article is excellent reading for a generic overview of the inconsistencies surrounding the event.

http://www.lrb.co.uk...g-of-al-megrahi

Your own link from The Guardian says this:

Dumfries and Galloway police said only a court could properly consider this material, and supported previous criticism of Megrahi's decision to release his appeal papers by Elish Angiolini, the lord advocate. "We will not be taking part in any discussion or debate concerning the selective publications made by Mr Megrahi," a statement said.

"We have nothing more to add other than to echo the lord advocate's recent comments pointing out that Mr Megrahi was convicted unanimously by three senior judges and his conviction was upheld unanimously by five judges, in an appeal court presided over by the lord justice general, Scotland's most senior judge. Mr Megrahi remains convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity in UK history."

In short, his conviction stands.

Your second link is nothing more than a regurgitation of the American Buddha link previously provided in post number 26.

Please permit me to quote one of our learned members, Mr. Folium, in another thread. It rather sums up my feelings about these links.

____________________________________________________

"To be uber-pretentious I could just have quoted the late Christopher Hitchens:

"that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

http://www.thaivisa....on/page__st__25

____________________________________________________

[GentlemanJim]

Here is your starter for 10.

The only thing that connected Megrahi to Lockerbie was some clothing bought in Malta which was allegedly in the suitcase with the bomb in it. The key witness to the whole case it was found later received a 3 Million USD payout from the US Government. From 'The Guardian' in the UK, not really a newspaper associated with conspiracy. ChuckD it took 30 seconds to find

http://www.guardian....ahi?INTCMP=SRCH

And then here, an excellent review from Gareth Pierce a Defence Lawyer concerning a book written on the Pam Am 103 incident. This article is excellent reading for a generic overview of the inconsistencies surrounding the event.

http://www.lrb.co.uk...g-of-al-megrahi

Your own link from The Guardian says this:

Dumfries and Galloway police said only a court could properly consider this material, and supported previous criticism of Megrahi's decision to release his appeal papers by Elish Angiolini, the lord advocate. "We will not be taking part in any discussion or debate concerning the selective publications made by Mr Megrahi," a statement said.

"We have nothing more to add other than to echo the lord advocate's recent comments pointing out that Mr Megrahi was convicted unanimously by three senior judges and his conviction was upheld unanimously by five judges, in an appeal court presided over by the lord justice general, Scotland's most senior judge. Mr Megrahi remains convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity in UK history."

In short, his conviction stands.

Your second link is nothing more than a regurgitation of the American Buddha link previously provided in post number 26.

Please permit me to quote one of our learned members, Mr. Folium, in another thread. It rather sums up my feelings about these links.

____________________________________________________

"To be uber-pretentious I could just have quoted the late Christopher Hitchens:

"that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

http://www.thaivisa....on/page__st__25

____________________________________________________

I don't know what point you are trying to make. Of course the police cannot comment, certainly not if they want to keep their job and pension. This is the whole point. Significant evidence exists and it will not be heard in a court of law because all avenues for an appeal are now closed. However, I think the relatives of those involved deserve a little more than a whitewash from our two Governments, and you should be really interested in hearing how they account for themselves. However, I forgot to take in to account that you take as fact everything that your Government tells you. No need to reply, we don't need another hamsterwheel.

[folium]

[

In short, his conviction stands.

"To be uber-pretentious I could just have quoted the late Christopher Hitchens:

"that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

___________________________________________________

While flattered to be quoted (or at least recycling the Hitchens' quote), there does appear to be plausible evidence that the Megrahi case was flawed and it would thus appear that he was a sacrificial lamb twice, once to benefit the Libyans to enable them to re-engage with the international community, and then secondly by the UK government to facilitate oil, gas and hardware contracts in Libya. as previously stated realpolitik is grubby and not uncommon but it's all about the greater good.

But Megrahi was probably either part of or worked with Libyan intelligence as part of his "security officer" work with the state-owned airline, and Libya still is the likely source of the attack. If there is compelling evidence that puts Syria, Iran or the PFLPGC in the frame please post it.

The Middle East in the late 1980's was a nasty cauldron of state agencies and terrorist organizations up to nefarious activities and all sorts of unholy alliances and marriages of convenience. The 100% truth will probably never emerge.

The really silly and downright mischievous conspiracy theories are those concerning the usual suspects beloved of hackneyed B movies involving rogue CIA agents, drug runners, and even the apartheid South Africans, all a bit too Lethal Weapon! Of course such theories rely on super efficiency and brilliant execution rather than the usual grubby story of cockups and muddling through that are the usual hallmark of such operations.

Also in today's world of wikileaks etc it would be surprising that such a secret could have lasted 24 years without being blown to some degree at least.

[Scott]

Please be civil to one another and stay on the topic.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Scott

[folium]

Excuse me for interrupting your discussion but I would like to suggest a couple of things:

Firstly there does appear to be sufficient issues with the case against Megrahi, as presented to the court, to suggest that his conviction was not sound. However this raises 2 further points: 1) was Megrahi involved in the plot to some degree given his possible Libyan security service connection? 2) It does not remove Libya from the plot either. Attached is Resolution 1506 passed by the UN Security Council in 2003, in which Libya (while denying state involvement) admitted "responsibility for the actions of its officials, renounced terrorism and arranged for payment of appropriate compensation for the families of the victims". Libya paid out to the victims of Lockerbie, the 1989 UTA flight (destroyed in a similar fashion to Pan Am 103) and the 1986 Berlin disco attack. All a bit strange if they had nothing to do with them.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7868.doc.htm

Secondly, the more outlandish theories are summarised well here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_theories#cite_note-32

This is where things get a bit silly IMHO. From the CIA to BOSS to Mossad etc, etc. These ideas sell lots of books and generate lots of attention and revenue, but hard evidence does seem to be in short supply. If I am wrong please point me in the direction of some credible facts that reveal the truth. Rabid blogsites on an agenda frenzy that are frothing anti-US, Israel or whatever don't count.

Personally I believe Megrahi was the fall guy but was probably intelligence service linked to some degree. Libya was also probably involved as either the instigator or was contracted to do the job (and I don't mean by Israel, USA or S. Africa; more likely Iran and/or the PFLP-GC).

Messy, untidy and ultimately unsatisfying to many people, but that's the nature of this type of beast. If a radically different and proven version of events has not yet emerged, it probably never will.

Edited May 25, 2012 by folium

[GentlemanJim]

Excuse me for interrupting your discussion but I would like to suggest a couple of things:

Firstly there does appear to be sufficient issues with the case against Megrahi, as presented to the court, to suggest that his conviction was not sound. However this raises 2 further points: 1) was Megrahi involved in the plot to some degree given his possible Libyan security service connection? 2) It does not remove Libya from the plot either. Attached is Resolution 1506 passed by the UN Security Council in 2003, in which Libya (while denying state involvement) admitted "responsibility for the actions of its officials, renounced terrorism and arranged for payment of appropriate compensation for the families of the victims". Libya paid out to the victims of Lockerbie, the 1989 UTA flight (destroyed in a similar fashion to Pan Am 103) and the 1986 Berlin disco attack. All a bit strange if they had nothing to do with them.

http://www.un.org/Ne.../sc7868.doc.htm

Secondly, the more outlandish theories are summarised well here:

http://en.wikipedia....es#cite_note-32

This is where things get a bit silly IMHO. From the CIA to BOSS to Mossad etc, etc. These ideas sell lots of books and generate lots of attention and revenue, but hard evidence does seem to be in short supply. If I am wrong please point me in the direction of some credible facts that reveal the truth. Rabid blogsites on an agenda frenzy that are frothing anti-US, Israel or whatever don't count.

Personally I believe Megrahi was the fall guy but was probably intelligence service linked to some degree. Libya was also probably involved as either the instigator or was contracted to do the job (and I don't mean by Israel, USA or S. Africa; more likely Iran and/or the PFLP-GC).

Messy, untidy and ultimately unsatisfying to many people, but that's the nature of this type of beast. If a radically different and proven version of events has not yet emerged, it probably never will.

If anyone took out a contract it would most likely be traced back to Iran in retaliation for the Iran Air flight 655 shot down by the USS Vincennes Jul 3 1988. What does need explaining however is the payments of many millions of dollars by the US to the main prosecution witness.

[folium]

Excuse me for interrupting your discussion but I would like to suggest a couple of things:

Firstly there does appear to be sufficient issues with the case against Megrahi, as presented to the court, to suggest that his conviction was not sound. However this raises 2 further points: 1) was Megrahi involved in the plot to some degree given his possible Libyan security service connection? 2) It does not remove Libya from the plot either. Attached is Resolution 1506 passed by the UN Security Council in 2003, in which Libya (while denying state involvement) admitted "responsibility for the actions of its officials, renounced terrorism and arranged for payment of appropriate compensation for the families of the victims". Libya paid out to the victims of Lockerbie, the 1989 UTA flight (destroyed in a similar fashion to Pan Am 103) and the 1986 Berlin disco attack. All a bit strange if they had nothing to do with them.

http://www.un.org/Ne.../sc7868.doc.htm

Secondly, the more outlandish theories are summarised well here:

http://en.wikipedia....es#cite_note-32

This is where things get a bit silly IMHO. From the CIA to BOSS to Mossad etc, etc. These ideas sell lots of books and generate lots of attention and revenue, but hard evidence does seem to be in short supply. If I am wrong please point me in the direction of some credible facts that reveal the truth. Rabid blogsites on an agenda frenzy that are frothing anti-US, Israel or whatever don't count.

Personally I believe Megrahi was the fall guy but was probably intelligence service linked to some degree. Libya was also probably involved as either the instigator or was contracted to do the job (and I don't mean by Israel, USA or S. Africa; more likely Iran and/or the PFLP-GC).

Messy, untidy and ultimately unsatisfying to many people, but that's the nature of this type of beast. If a radically different and proven version of events has not yet emerged, it probably never will.

If anyone took out a contract it would most likely be traced back to Iran in retaliation for the Iran Air flight 655 shot down by the USS Vincennes Jul 3 1988. What does need explaining however is the payments of many millions of dollars by the US to the main prosecution witness.

Excuse me for interrupting your discussion but I would like to suggest a couple of things:

Firstly there does appear to be sufficient issues with the case against Megrahi, as presented to the court, to suggest that his conviction was not sound. However this raises 2 further points: 1) was Megrahi involved in the plot to some degree given his possible Libyan security service connection? 2) It does not remove Libya from the plot either. Attached is Resolution 1506 passed by the UN Security Council in 2003, in which Libya (while denying state involvement) admitted "responsibility for the actions of its officials, renounced terrorism and arranged for payment of appropriate compensation for the families of the victims". Libya paid out to the victims of Lockerbie, the 1989 UTA flight (destroyed in a similar fashion to Pan Am 103) and the 1986 Berlin disco attack. All a bit strange if they had nothing to do with them.

http://www.un.org/Ne.../sc7868.doc.htm

Secondly, the more outlandish theories are summarised well here:

http://en.wikipedia....es#cite_note-32

This is where things get a bit silly IMHO. From the CIA to BOSS to Mossad etc, etc. These ideas sell lots of books and generate lots of attention and revenue, but hard evidence does seem to be in short supply. If I am wrong please point me in the direction of some credible facts that reveal the truth. Rabid blogsites on an agenda frenzy that are frothing anti-US, Israel or whatever don't count.

Personally I believe Megrahi was the fall guy but was probably intelligence service linked to some degree. Libya was also probably involved as either the instigator or was contracted to do the job (and I don't mean by Israel, USA or S. Africa; more likely Iran and/or the PFLP-GC).

Messy, untidy and ultimately unsatisfying to many people, but that's the nature of this type of beast. If a radically different and proven version of events has not yet emerged, it probably never will.

If anyone took out a contract it would most likely be traced back to Iran in retaliation for the Iran Air flight 655 shot down by the USS Vincennes Jul 3 1988. What does need explaining however is the payments of many millions of dollars by the US to the main prosecution witness.

To be honest there were quite a few people in that part of the world pi**ed off with the US in the late 1980's! Touch of the "Murder on the Orient Express" and multiple accomplices to the event.

Re the reward of $2m picked up by Gauci it is all part and parcel of the US way of doing business and remains so, see below. The potential "conflict of interest" this can create means that few other countries adopt a similar approach.

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/

[sbk]

Despite being asked to refrain from bickering the argument was continued, so I will make it clearer: The personal bickering and name calling will stop. Now. Cheers

[koheesti]

Furthermore, you protest about Obama a little too much, whatever untruths he may have told, non have come even remotely close to "he has weapons of mass destruction'! I would be interested to hear what you think he has said that has been worse than that.

If you believe Bush lied about WMDs, then so must have every major player of the Democrat opposition and so must have every foreign security service because they all thought so as well. In Obama's case, he tells so many lies that even his own party is rebelling against him.

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

Edited May 25, 2012 by koheesti

[GentlemanJim]

Furthermore, you protest about Obama a little too much, whatever untruths he may have told, non have come even remotely close to "he has weapons of mass destruction'! I would be interested to hear what you think he has said that has been worse than that.

If you believe Bush lied about WMDs, then so must have every major player of the Democrat opposition and so must have every foreign security service because they all thought so as well. In Obama's case, he tells so many lies that even his own party is rebelling against him.

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

State your case Koheesti.

[Ulysses G.]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

[GentlemanJim]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

[Ulysses G.]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this.

koheesti is implying that some posters post absurd conspiracy theories on a regular basis, so it is easy to dismiss new claims as just more of the same and I agreed. This particular incident may break that rule, but the whole case has become so politicized it is hard to tell.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[chuckd]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

Pray tell us WHO is the real murderer. Name/s would be nice to have.

[folium]

To really understand Lockerbie it is important to put it in context, at least in relation to Libya.

Aug 1981 US Navy jets shoot down 2 Libyan air force planes over Gulf of Sidra (repeated in Jan 1989 with same results)

June 1985 possible Libyan link to hijacking of TWA flight 847 by Hizbollah and murder of US Navy diver.

June/Aug 1985 first 2 shipments of Libyan weaponry to IRA.

Mar 1986 US Navy planes sink 2 Libyan naval vessels and attack onshore SAM sites, 36 Libyans killed.

April 1986 LaBelle disco, Berlin, bombed by Palestinian terrorists coordinated by Libyan intelligence agent , 3 killed.

April 1986 Op El Dorado Canyon, US bomb attacks on Tripoli & Benghazi from UK air bases and US Navy carriers, 60? Libyans, 2 US pilots killed (3 UK/US hostages and 1 tourist killed in Lebanon/Jerusalem in retaliation)

July 1986 3rd Libyan shipment of 14 tons of IRA weaponry

August 1986 Libyan sponsored attack on RAF Akrotiri, key strategic base, well planned, poorly executed attack, 3 Brits injured, hushed up by UK and Cypriot governments. Carried out by UNO, Libyan-sponsored unit.

Sept 1986: Hijacking of Pan Am flight 73 in Pakistan, Abu Nidal operation but widely believed to have been Libyan initiated and supported. 20 dead.

Oct 1986 40 tons of weapons shipped to IRA

Aug 1987 Libyan-sponsored UNO gun attack and separate attempted car bomb attack on UK military in Cyprus, 2 wounded. Again hushed up.

Nov 1987 MV Eksund intercepted with 120 tons of weapons bound for IRA.

Dec 1987 possible Libyan link to Rome & Vienna airport attacks carried out by Abu Nidal, 19 dead plus 4 terrorists

Dec 1988 Lockerbie bombing, 270 dead.

Sept 1989, often overlooked and rarely mentioned outside France, UTA Flight 772, a DC10 from Brazzaville, Republic of Congo and N'Djamena, Chad to Paris CGD, blew up over the Sahara Desert in

Niger. The plane's destruction was caused by a bomb packed in a grey Samsonite suitcase stored in the forward cargo hold. All 170 passengers and crew were killed.

After a lengthy investigation, six Libyan perpetrators were put on trial in absentia, Libya refusing their extradition request, and were convicted in 1999. Among those found guilty was Abdullah Senussi, Colonel Gaddafi's brother-in-law and deputy-head of Libyan Intelligence.

The motive for the bombing was France's support for Chad in its war against Libya (1978-1987) which ended in defeat for Libya.

AFP writing for

Al Arabiya News on 18 July 2011, quoted the former Libyan Foreign Minister, Abdel Rahman Shalgam who had defected to Benghazi in March 2011 saying:

"The Libyan Security Services blew up the (UTA) plane. They believed that opposition leader Mohammed al-Megrief was on board, but after the plane was blown up, it was found that he was not on the plane. The Lockerbie operation was more complex...the role of states and organisations has been discussed, and while the Libyan Services were implicated, I do not think it was a purely Libyan operation."

Libya therefore had considerable form in using/supplying third parties to undertake attacks on US & UK targets. Lockerbie would therefore fit this pattern and the similarities with the UTA attack are striking. All circumstantial but interesting. Connections with Iran and PFLPGC also quite possible as hinted at by Shalgam.

[GentlemanJim]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

Pray tell us WHO is the real murderer. Name/s would be nice to have.

Chukd

I wish I could, I really do. That is the $64 Million dollar question, but one thing is for sure, all the evidence leads to the conclusion that it was NOT Megrahi, ergo the real culprit (s) are still on the loose, and desperately need brining to justice.

[chuckd]

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

Pray tell us WHO is the real murderer. Name/s would be nice to have.

Chukd

I wish I could, I really do. That is the $64 Million dollar question, but one thing is for sure, all the evidence leads to the conclusion that it was NOT Megrahi, ergo the real culprit (s) are still on the loose, and desperately need brining to justice.

Please permit me to get this straight. You claim you do not know who actually did the bombing. But then you claim you do know who did NOT do the bombing.

Yet the person you claim did NOT do the bombing is the only person that has gone to trial, had evidence presented before a court in Scotland, has been convicted for the crime and sentenced to prison time and actually served that in prison for the crime. Does that about cover it?

Interesting, indeed.

Now on to another subject.

You make the claim in post number 37 that you provided me a link to an article from the Guardian and that I "completely ignored it".

You provided the link in your post number 30.

I responded in post number 31 to both links you provided in number 30, therefore your comment that I "completely ignored" the Guardian link is false.

Finally, a rather small point and probably a typo, but my forum name is Chuckd, not Chukd.

[Scott]

It's quite irritating when posters demand a response to a previous post, particularly when they list the post number. If posts are deleted, then the number is no longer accurate.

(Numerous posts and replies have been deleted per a report to moderators. This is your last public notice to stay on topic and be civil. Further infractions will result in suspensions.)

Edited May 26, 2012 by Scott

[NxaiPan]

To really understand Lockerbie it is important to put it in context, at least in relation to Libya.

Aug 1981 US Navy jets shoot down 2 Libyan air force planes over Gulf of Sidra (repeated in Jan 1989 with same results)

June 1985 possible Libyan link to hijacking of TWA flight 847 by Hizbollah and murder of US Navy diver.

June/Aug 1985 first 2 shipments of Libyan weaponry to IRA.

Mar 1986 US Navy planes sink 2 Libyan naval vessels and attack onshore SAM sites, 36 Libyans killed.

April 1986 LaBelle disco, Berlin, bombed by Palestinian terrorists coordinated by Libyan intelligence agent , 3 killed.

April 1986 Op El Dorado Canyon, US bomb attacks on Tripoli & Benghazi from UK air bases and US Navy carriers, 60? Libyans, 2 US pilots killed (3 UK/US hostages and 1 tourist killed in Lebanon/Jerusalem in retaliation)

July 1986 3rd Libyan shipment of 14 tons of IRA weaponry

August 1986 Libyan sponsored attack on RAF Akrotiri, key strategic base, well planned, poorly executed attack, 3 Brits injured, hushed up by UK and Cypriot governments. Carried out by UNO, Libyan-sponsored unit.

Sept 1986: Hijacking of Pan Am flight 73 in Pakistan, Abu Nidal operation but widely believed to have been Libyan initiated and supported. 20 dead.

Oct 1986 40 tons of weapons shipped to IRA

Aug 1987 Libyan-sponsored UNO gun attack and separate attempted car bomb attack on UK military in Cyprus, 2 wounded. Again hushed up.

Nov 1987 MV Eksund intercepted with 120 tons of weapons bound for IRA.

Dec 1987 possible Libyan link to Rome & Vienna airport attacks carried out by Abu Nidal, 19 dead plus 4 terrorists

Dec 1988 Lockerbie bombing, 270 dead.

Sept 1989, often overlooked and rarely mentioned outside France, UTA Flight 772, a DC10 from Brazzaville, Republic of Congo and N'Djamena, Chad to Paris CGD, blew up over the Sahara Desert in

Niger. The plane's destruction was caused by a bomb packed in a grey Samsonite suitcase stored in the forward cargo hold. All 170 passengers and crew were killed.

After a lengthy investigation, six Libyan perpetrators were put on trial in absentia, Libya refusing their extradition request, and were convicted in 1999. Among those found guilty was Abdullah Senussi, Colonel Gaddafi's brother-in-law and deputy-head of Libyan Intelligence.

The motive for the bombing was France's support for Chad in its war against Libya (1978-1987) which ended in defeat for Libya.

AFP writing for

Al Arabiya News on 18 July 2011, quoted the former Libyan Foreign Minister, Abdel Rahman Shalgam who had defected to Benghazi in March 2011 saying:

"The Libyan Security Services blew up the (UTA) plane. They believed that opposition leader Mohammed al-Megrief was on board, but after the plane was blown up, it was found that he was not on the plane. The Lockerbie operation was more complex...the role of states and organisations has been discussed, and while the Libyan Services were implicated, I do not think it was a purely Libyan operation."

Libya therefore had considerable form in using/supplying third parties to undertake attacks on US & UK targets. Lockerbie would therefore fit this pattern and the similarities with the UTA attack are striking. All circumstantial but interesting. Connections with Iran and PFLPGC also quite possible as hinted at by Shalgam.

Right charmers the Libyan government were! Seems like they had the motive, experience and capability of plotting &/or outsourcing a job like the Lockerbie bombing.

[koheesti]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi.

It sounds like the argument here is, "Different courts have made mistakes in the past before therefore in this case he must be innocent".

My original statement above about this isn't meant to be cryptic. I haven't read about the Lockerbie case in great detail (since the 1980;'s anyway) but until this thread, I never read that Megrahi was innocent.

In general I don't like conspiracy theory believers because for some reason they tend to believe ALL conspiracy theories. If one believes in the 9/11 conspiracy, they most likely also believe the moon landing was faked, that Kennedy was killed by someone in the grassy knoll or that Obama was really born in Kenya. I've a friend on Facebook who manages to post several videos a day about various conspiracy theories. He's a friend, but that doesn't make him sane.

[Steely Dan]

I remember the night of the Lockerbie bombing very well; I was driving up to Glasgow and got delayed for a while whilst the emergency services cleared debris off the motorway, it was only upon reaching my destination that I learned what happened.

Libya, as has been pointed out has form when it comes to terrorism, there was also the murder of Yvonne Fletcher, a policewoman on duty outside the Libyan embassy. I do concede that BAe Systems did sign a large contract with Libya shortly after Megrahi was released, but as with all conspiracy theories circumstantial evidence is easy to amass, whereas anything contradicting it is overlooked by the tinfoil hat crowd. Perhaps this is indeed one of the exceptions where there is more to the case than meets the eye, there is likely to be such a case based on the law of averages, but even if this were so I don't think anyone would know for sure for another 30 years or so.

[KhaoNiaw]

My original statement above about this isn't meant to be cryptic. I haven't read about the Lockerbie case in great detail (since the 1980;'s anyway) but until this thread, I never read that Megrahi was innocent.

I think there were always questions from the beginning. You don't have to believe in wider conspiracies to see Megrahi's innocence in this case.

If you watch the documentary I posted earlier, you'll see that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, an independent body, produced a report which pretty well exonerates Megrahi - but basically no-one is allowed to read it.

Scientific evidence regarding the timer used in the bomb is proved to be false. Other evidence regarding the identification of Megrahi doesn't stand up.

A senior police officer believes the process and conviction were completely flawed.

If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted.

Edited May 26, 2012 by KhaoNiaw

[chuckd]

My original statement above about this isn't meant to be cryptic. I haven't read about the Lockerbie case in great detail (since the 1980;'s anyway) but until this thread, I never read that Megrahi was innocent.

I think there were always questions from the beginning. You don't have to believe in wider conspiracies to see Megrahi's innocence in this case.

If you watch the documentary I posted earlier, you'll see that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, an independent body, produced a report which pretty well exonerates Megrahi - but basically no-one is allowed to read it.

Scientific evidence regarding the timer used in the bomb is proved to be false. Other evidence regarding the identification of Megrahi doesn't stand up.

A senior police officer believes the process and conviction were completely flawed.

If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted.

"If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted."

But it wasn't...and he was.

[philw]

My original statement above about this isn't meant to be cryptic. I haven't read about the Lockerbie case in great detail (since the 1980;'s anyway) but until this thread, I never read that Megrahi was innocent.

I think there were always questions from the beginning. You don't have to believe in wider conspiracies to see Megrahi's innocence in this case.

If you watch the documentary I posted earlier, you'll see that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, an independent body, produced a report which pretty well exonerates Megrahi - but basically no-one is allowed to read it.

Scientific evidence regarding the timer used in the bomb is proved to be false. Other evidence regarding the identification of Megrahi doesn't stand up.

A senior police officer believes the process and conviction were completely flawed.

If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted.

"If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted."

But it wasn't...and he was.

So that makes it an unsafe conviction, does it not ??

[Exsexyman]

My original statement above about this isn't meant to be cryptic. I haven't read about the Lockerbie case in great detail (since the 1980;'s anyway) but until this thread, I never read that Megrahi was innocent.

I think there were always questions from the beginning. You don't have to believe in wider conspiracies to see Megrahi's innocence in this case.

If you watch the documentary I posted earlier, you'll see that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, an independent body, produced a report which pretty well exonerates Megrahi - but basically no-one is allowed to read it.

Scientific evidence regarding the timer used in the bomb is proved to be false. Other evidence regarding the identification of Megrahi doesn't stand up.

A senior police officer believes the process and conviction were completely flawed.

If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted.

"If this was all presented at his trial, it's rather unlikely that he would have been convicted."

But it wasn't...and he was.

Of course it wasn't presented at his trial. Why do you think that was?

[Exsexyman]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

Gentleman Jim, you really are wasting your time here. Despite the overwhelming evidence that Al Magrahi was innocent of this outrage, you will never convince the American Firsters with their closed minds otherwise. You may as well urge Count Dracula to get up at sunrise and eat more vegetables!

[koheesti]

If you watch the documentary I posted earlier, you'll see that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission, an independent body, produced a report which pretty well exonerates Megrahi - but basically no-one is allowed to read it.

No one except apparently the documentary maker. This is a classic conspiracy technique - claiming the existence of super, top secret information that no one on the planet knows about. No one except of course the guy in the tin foil hat.

[chuckd]

As for the Lockerbie bomber, it's interesting to find people who think he was innocent. Not that anything around here surprises me anymore.

That is for sure.

I don't quite understand where the two of you are going with this. Are you trying to say that miscarriages of justice do not take place? Are you implying that courts do not make mistakes? A quick google will expose a number of cases recently where in the US it has been found beyond all doubt that innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit and subsequently executed. If you take the time to google and read, how can you then not be left with questions as to the robustness of the case against Megrahi. The relatives of those killed on Pan Am 103 deserve justice, not to be sold some convenient story that washes the entire issue under the carpet for all time. Dr Jim Swire has been campaigning for years to get an independent inquiry, why would he do that? Why would he just not let it rest in the knowledge that the Government had jailed his daughters killer? The answer is because he did not believe it, the evidence was not robust, in fact quite the opposite.

Koheesti, you have already expressed how you are sure that Presidents lie, good for you, does it not cross your mind for one moment with the evidence at hand that Presidents and Prime Ministers lied in this case? The thing that really puts the fish bone in my throat and should do yours, is that the real mass murderer is still out there living a fine life, whilst a rotting corpse takes the blame. The people responsible should be behind bars for life, but they are not, and likely never will be now. Talk about getting away with murder!

Gentleman Jim, you really are wasting your time here. Despite the overwhelming evidence that Al Magrahi was innocent of this outrage, you will never convince the American Firsters with their closed minds otherwise. You may as well urge Count Dracula to get up at sunrise and eat more vegetables!

Why are you referring to the so called "American Firsters" in this context.

As I recall the trial for Magrahi was held in Scotland before a group of Scottish judges with appellate jurisdiction held by the courts of Scotland.

Blame the Scots, even if it doesn't fit your agenda.

Edited May 27, 2012 by chuckd

[koheesti]

Gentleman Jim, you really are wasting your time here. Despite the overwhelming evidence that Al Magrahi was innocent of this outrage, you will never convince the American Firsters with their closed minds otherwise. You may as well urge Count Dracula to get up at sunrise and eat more vegetables!

Why are you referring to the so called "American Firsters" in this context.

As I recall the trial for Magrahi was held in Scotland before a group of Scottish judges with appellate jurisdiction held by the courts of Scotland.

Blame the Scots, even if it doesn't fit your agenda.

The USA owns Scotland. By a 5-1 score in fact.

Edited May 27, 2012 by koheesti