Where Do I Begin ?

[parryhandy]

I wonder if anybody can advise me on the best way of learning Thai ?

I am currently in the uk and have a wife and daughter living near Khon Kaen.My wife speaks enough English for us to get by but am i becoming increasingly frustrated at not being able to speak with my daughter (3 years old ).I have come to realise it is essential that i learn Thai.

I have scoured this forum and a few other language sites and also have got hold of the Rossetta stone Thai level 1 language cd.To be perfectly honest all the information i have read has really overwelmed me.

What i really need is a good starting point . Is the rossetta stone way of learning any good ? I currently work 7 days a week but could find 4 hours a day to study but i just dont know where to begin ?

Could anybody please give me some advice on my best course of action bearing in mind it is the lao dialect of thai that my family speaks ?

cheers steve

I did stay in Thailand for 2 years but really made no effort in learning the language

[Jaffy]

Hi Steve,

Firstly, well done for taking the plunge & deciding that you also need to learn some thai! It is a difficult language for farangs to learn & can be quite daunting when you first get started.

Before moving to Thailand to taech English for a year ( in 2004) I took a thai language course here in London and found it extremely useful! Of course, there is no substitute for "the immersion technique" but before you hit the ground running it may be useful to get a good grounding on the principles of the language.

If you are based in London, I would suggest SOAS - School of Oriental & African Studies. They are an off-shoot of University of London and they offer a beginners, intermediate & advanced speakers course. I started off with the beginners course which covered some basic conversations & situations, introduction to reading & writing thai & a whole load of vocabulary. I also did the intermediate course which is tougher but really usefull too.

Check out this link, it seems that the next course starts on Jan 19th.

http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/tt/jan.html

Good Luck mate!

[gburns57au]

The best way to learn Thai is the same you learnt to speak English.....start with the alphabet and go from there.....your wife can help you here and your daughter would probably help you as well. The advantage you have is you can learn with your daughter who probably has a lot to learn herself. Ideally your wife should be helping the daughter to speak English and you can help her with that too. with the both of you learning a second language at the same time, I would think that after a couple of years you would be able to outspeak most people here....

[GoodHeart]

The best way to learn Thai is the same you learnt to speak English.....start with the alphabet and go from there.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't want to threadjack, but there is one problem here- that's not the way it works. Spoken language is first.

[parryhandy]

Hi Steve,

Firstly, well done for taking the plunge & deciding that you also need to learn some thai! It is a difficult language for farangs to learn & can be quite daunting when you first get started.

Before moving to Thailand to taech English for a year ( in 2004) I took a thai language course here in London and found it extremely useful! Of course, there is no substitute for "the immersion technique" but before you hit the ground running it may be useful to get a good grounding on the principles of the language.

If you are based in London, I would suggest SOAS - School of Oriental & African Studies. They are an off-shoot of University of London and they offer a beginners, intermediate & advanced speakers course. I started off with the beginners course which covered some basic conversations & situations, introduction to reading & writing thai & a whole load of vocabulary. I also did the intermediate course which is tougher but really usefull too.

Check out this link, it seems that the next course starts on Jan 19th.

http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/tt/jan.html

Good Luck mate!

thanks for the input jaffy

ive looked at the course and it does look good but i am in essex and as i said before i am currently working (2 jobs) 7 days a week and havent the time or resources to travel into London unfortunately.If iwas a bit nearer i would give it a try.

The best way to learn Thai is the same you learnt to speak English.....start with the alphabet and go from there.....your wife can help you here and your daughter would probably help you as well. The advantage you have is you can learn with your daughter who probably has a lot to learn herself. Ideally your wife should be helping the daughter to speak English and you can help her with that too. with the both of you learning a second language at the same time, I would think that after a couple of years you would be able to outspeak most people here....

thanks for the reply but unforunately my wife and daughter are in Thailand and im in the Uk so they cant really help me that much.I have looked at the alphabet and even downloaded the alphabet song off one website.At the moment its totally meaningless to me. !!

What i want to do is learn the best way for my current circumstances but make sure i dont learn the wrong way.Has anybody else tried the rosetta stone cd and if so what are their views of it ?

cheers steve.

[roamer]

If you REALLY REALLY want to learn Thai you could use the course that full time SOAS students start off with which is the Linguaphone full course, normally £270 its available for £100 during Jan...but only if you have previously inquired about it and they send you a special offer. You could try to blag it though....

Also I don't want to rain on your parade but the Lao dialect is not simply a different accent, it does involve words and phrases that you won't otherwise come across. Having said that you have to start somewhere and short of living there you won't find anywhere else where you will learn that dialect.

[wasabi]

I don't recommend Rosetta stone for any non Roman based language. RS is a unique way to learn a language, but you simply must learn the Thai alphabet to make any use of Thai since so much of the language is based on tones which can be infered from the alphabet. There's no way you'll just intuitively pick up the alphabet enough to make practical use of Rosetta. You will be forced to use English as a crutch until you know enough Thai to read or at least recognize letters and vowels.

It may seem like a pain but I would study the letters, classes (there are three) and tones (there are five) first. A good start is Thai for Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. You'll simply have to repeat the alphabet over and over until you have it memorized. Use whatever mnemonic techniques you can think of as you go along. After that build some basic vocabulary but don't spend forever memorizing words, just go through Thai for Beginners. After this start memorizing phrases even if you don't know all the words, in conjunction with this continue to learn more words, but always with an emphasis on phrases which will help you understand word order, classifiers and other things distinct to Thai.

[chippie]

I used the Thai for beginers software from Benjawan Poomsan Becker ( Paiboon Publishing) and found it very good, it uses the phonetic alphabet not the roman and as such the pronunciation is a lot clearer. It has male and female speech which is obviously essential and the best thing is it doesn't get moody like my girlfriend when I ask to repeat something 573 times.

I am now quite litterate in 7 months but am living in Thailand so that helps a lot.

[robitusson]

Apart from the books and courses suggested you have to ask yourself why you want to learn Thai and what you are going to use it for. Who will you be communicating with? Business or social? Also what are you aiming for? Fluency or maybe just some phrases to get by? How long are you going to learn for? A few months or will this be a lifelong process? Are you going to learn how to read? Having a clear idea of what you want to learn and why is very important for the language learner.

[roamer]

I used the Thai for beginers software from Benjawan Poomsan Becker ( Paiboon Publishing) and found it very good, it uses the phonetic alphabet not the roman and as such the pronunciation is a lot clearer. It has male and female speech which is obviously essential and the best thing is it doesn't get moody like my girlfriend when I ask to repeat something 573 times.

I am now quite litterate in 7 months but am living in Thailand so that helps a lot.

There is no getting away from the fact that living in LOS helps, not least because your subconcious is absorbing the sounds, so if you can't be there then the best UK investment is broadband and listen to Thai radio....does,nt matter if you can't understand a word, use it as background and you'll be picking up more than you know. Yes of course there are people who have lived in LOS for 20 years, can't speak Thai and will decry that notion, what can I say ? Most of the people I know who say they can't do maths have never picked up a book to find out whether they can or not.

[brunodog]

Check out this link, it seems that the next course starts on Jan 19th.

http://www.soas.ac.uk/languagecentre/tt/jan.html

Good Luck mate!

Hi Jaffy, also not wishing to hijack this thread, are you aware of any other academic institutions offering something similar to the link provided. (Midlands area)

Ta

[greenwanderer108]

you could always take up a thai mia noi in England.

No, but really, If you don't got the time or money for a regular study course...surely there are many thai massuesses in England. Get a weekly massage. practice and expand your vocab while venting the stress from the two jobs. And if you don't trust yourself...request a male one...If it's too dodgy for you...

other suggestions would be inbetween your independent studies, dine at all the thai resteraunts, frequent the wat Thais in England. The best way to get a grasp on the language is to make it practicle. Since you can't be in Thailand at the moment, the best thing IMHO is to get into/active/known within the Thai community in England...whether that be resteraunts, temples, or other means.

Classes, courses, etc. are almost useless if you can't put practibility/application into the material. I think you'll find lots more incentive if you are around many Thai people...more than a classroom anyway.

Ask your wife to send you some good Thai movies with English subs. That'll get you kickstarted. You can know what's going on and gradually move off of reading the subs.

Cheers, goodluck!

[Boo]

Ask around in any local thai restaurants for anyone who wants to earn a bit of extra cash, there are plenty of people around from Issan, it's just a matter of finding a willing teacher. It's a shame you are in essex, we are in south london & hubby is from Khon Kaen & could have taught you a few hrs a week but ask around, you never know.

[dseawarrior]

I agree with:

"Don't want to threadjack, but there is one problem here- that's not the way it works. Spoken language is first."

YES, indeed!!!

_Everyone_ must crawl before they can walk... Since you would like to talk with your 3 year old, I would suggest that you focus your efforts there...

Become a 3 year old Thai person (imagine that!)

Don't worry about reading and writing you aren't there yet!

Focus on listening and speaking, first! Listen and repeat; listen & repeat, ad infinitum!

Get face time with real Thai speakers and talk with them about family stuff. Eat dinner with them, learn how to say "pass the salt" in Thai. Eating and talking happens naturally... Do it often in Thai!

Listen to Thai music -- early and often. Have your wife send you her favorite tunes on tape or CD...

Listen and repeat. OFTEN. Do it a THOUSAND times if necessary. REPETITION is KEY!

Check out some good audio tapes/ CD's

Poomsan Publishing (author Benjuwan Poomsan Becker) has some excellent tapes...

I especially liked: "Thai for Lovers" and the first two tapes for learning Thai in her 3 book series...

I am currently very fluent in speaking, but not very fluent in reading or writing... Those will come with years of study if I want to put in that time...

But for now, I can talk fluently on most topics and that is just fine with me...

Once you have Thai pronunciation down, you will be surprised at how many English loan words are in Thai (and loan words from Sanskrit, for exampe, Karma = "kama" in Thai; Yoga = "yoha" in Thai).

Keep your ears open, listen and repeat. Puut iik na krap?

Chok dee jing jing na!

dseawarrior

[greenwanderer108]

I agree with:

"Don't want to threadjack, but there is one problem here- that's not the way it works. Spoken language is first."

YES, indeed!!!

_Everyone_ must crawl before they can walk... Since you would like to talk with your 3 year old, I would suggest that you focus your efforts there...

I don't think it's a good strategy to hold off on the Thai alphabet, reading, and writing, etc. If you get into a habbit of learning new Thai words by writing them in English phonetics (the way you hear them) you'll create some bad habbits as so often our western hearing is way off of what is actually being said...

The alphabet early on will save you a lot of heartache in the long run. Even if you think you hear it a certain way, knowing how it's written will tell you if you are hearing it right for sure...Not to mention, how much more you can learn with a Thai language dictionary i.e. vocabulary, etc. and being able to pronunciate it correctly without ever having to hear the word spoken (after you learn all the tone rules of course)

A clear example in dseawarrior's previous thread was how he wrote Yoga in what he thought was how it is pronounced in Thai. (If it was just a typo, nevermind this point)

Actually the Thai word for Yoga is more like Yo-ka and we know this for certain because in Thai it's spelt โยคะ, though the k sound is quick and hard for many ears to catch, perhaps as in the case of dseawarrior hearing Yo-ha..

As someone else said already, your daughter will be learning the alphabet as well, so you two can learn simultaneously, though she'll probably pick it up quicker than you...well depends on your motivation, anyway.

Cheers!

[sabaijai]

The best way to learn Thai is the same you learnt to speak English.....start with the alphabet and go from there.....

Don't want to threadjack, but there is one problem here- that's not the way it works. Spoken language is first.

For children yes, for adults not necessarily.

Adults can often produce a foreign language before/or at an equal pace with comprehending it. An adult already has one language and at least one alphabet behind them, so can use many of the cognitive tools acquired the first time around that are not available to a child.

Learning the alphabet is not enough of course. A good course of study will have you working on speaking, listening, reading and writing more or less at the same time. Whatever instruction is available to you, don't get too caught up in whether it is the 'perfect' method (none has so far been found).

[dseawarrior]

I agree with:

"Don't want to threadjack, but there is one problem here- that's not the way it works. Spoken language is first."

YES, indeed!!!

_Everyone_ must crawl before they can walk... Since you would like to talk with your 3 year old, I would suggest that you focus your efforts there...

Greenwanderer is more of less corrct on:

A clear example in dseawarrior's previous thread was how he wrote Yoga in what he thought was how it is pronounced in Thai. (If it was just a typo, nevermind this point)

Actually the Thai word for Yoga is more like Yo-ka and we know this for certain because in Thai it's spelt โยคะ, though the k sound is quick and hard for many ears to catch, perhaps as in the case of dseawarrior hearing Yo-ha..

Actually, the sound is more of a "ch" glottal fricative like the CH in CHanuka or la CHeim...

But I have a bit of linguistic training that others don't...

The point is to get in there and start swimming --- the method doesn't really matter all that much...

Folks that favor visual learning will like the alphabet as an aide...

Folks that like auditory learning (like me) will favor talking with people...

To me, talking is the first accomplishment; wriitng is the second...

Aside from this written forum, I prefer to talk first...

The rest is up to you...

Dam jai kuhn na?

dseawarrior

[meadish_sweetball]

Actually, the sound is more of a "ch" glottal fricative like the CH in CHanuka or la CHeim...

ค is not a glottal fricative. In Standard Thai it is an aspirated velar plosive. There is a tendency towards a fricative sound in some Northern Thai dialects, but it is not glottal, rather velar or perhaps uvular. According to the references, the CH in Chanukah is velar, not glottal. I guess it may depend on the dialect of Hebrew though.

Thai consonants

I think your ears are deceiving you by substituting sounds you know since before for the actual sounds in Thai. It happens to all of us to a lesser or greater extent - we have our established group of 'possible' sounds in our mental lexicon, and when we listen to somebody speaking another language, we try to match those sounds into the categories we already have.

One example is that Germans will often pronounce English 'th' as 'z' (because there is no lisp sound in German)... English people will pronounce Swedish 'ö' as 'o' (because English lacks that exact vowel sound), etc.

This is a form of simplification, in order to avoid learning the exact sounds in the new language, but it can also give you problems with being understood if the sounds deviate too much from the actual norm, or, even worse, if they overlap another distinctive phoneme in the language - confusion.

Examples: Pronouncing both อา and แอ as 'ae', and ออ and โอ the same (unfortunately the official romanization system exacerbates this problem by transcribing both as 'o'), pronouncing อื as อู, pronouncing ป and พ as English 'p', pronouncing ต and ท as English 't'.. etc.

[greenwanderer108]

Dam jai kuhn na?

dseawarrior

So you're telling me I have a black heart...only you're grammar is wrong...ดำใจ (ใจดำ) คุณน่ะ

Or you're saying you're giving in to me cause you feel bad ...ทำใจคุณน่ะ

Oh I get it now. You're saying 'follow your heart..' regarding what method...ตามใจคุณน่ะ

I C...can never be too certain with just the English phonetics

[dseawarrior]

Dam jai kuhn na?

dseawarrior

So you're telling me I have a black heart...only you're grammar is wrong...???? (????) ??????

Or you're saying you're giving in to me cause you feel bad ...??????????

Oh I get it now. You're saying 'follow your heart..' regarding what method...???????????

I C...can never be too certain with just the English phonetics

Yo greenwanderer108,

Yer a funny guy, I assume. So much of language depends on location and context. Meadish Sweeball is correct in that I have more practice in talking with Thai people in the North.

I use what works and most local Thais assume that I have been living in LOS for 10+ years (which is a great over-estimate -- but I am a fast verbal learner...). This, I take as a confirmation of my basic VERBAL fluency. I do NOT claim WRITTEN fluency in Thai...

The question that started this string was "Where do I begin?" I still submit that we do not begin communication with writing. We begin with talking. Learning naturally, I believe is best...

So, your comments are more to the point of "Where do I continue -- if I want written proficiency?"

So, point us in that direction, Ajan, feel free to share your favorite links or methods for learning Thai writing -- since you clearly have mastered that. Feel free to be as pedantic as you like... Pray tell us, how long have you been studying Thai? You are clearly ahead of most of the curve for this forum.

We wai to your greater wisdom... Feel free to share your knowledge constructively, clearly and willingly without the silly comments, na? (Krang raek khun kao jai -- geng jang loei!)

dseawarrior

[Dakhar]

I think your ears are deceiving you by substituting sounds you know since before for the actual sounds in Thai. It happens to all of us to a lesser or greater extent - we have our established group of 'possible' sounds in our mental lexicon, and when we listen to somebody speaking another language, we try to match those sounds into the categories we already have.

One example is that Germans will often pronounce English 'th' as 'z' (because there is no lisp sound in German)... English people will pronounce Swedish 'ö' as 'o' (because English lacks that exact vowel sound), etc.

This is a form of simplification, in order to avoid learning the exact sounds in the new language, but it can also give you problems with being understood if the sounds deviate too much from the actual norm, or, even worse, if they overlap another distinctive phoneme in the language - confusion.

Yes, and no.

The body/mind actually will develop on its own the correct pronunciation of words/tones etc. For example, I speak English with a South East Southern accent. I do so, not on purpose, I do so because that is what I have been exposed to, and the body just mimics the sounds specific to that accent. If I moved to New Jersey, I would eventually speak as they do (Heaven Forbid).

After time, without practice, one should just natuarally begin to use the proper tones used in the Thai language. Sure, one can concentrate on them more so, by studying them etc. and yes, I would imagine this would speed things up.

I am not fluent in Thai at all. In fact as I write this, I am listening to Thai on my i-pod. But YEARS ago, I learned Mandarin Chinese, on a very fluent level.... I lived in Taiwan for several years, and I have a minor in Mandaring Chinese.

Any how, good luck to us all, because we are all learning.

[dseawarrior]

I think your ears are deceiving you by substituting sounds you know since before for the actual sounds in Thai. It happens to all of us to a lesser or greater extent - we have our established group of 'possible' sounds in our mental lexicon, and when we listen to somebody speaking another language, we try to match those sounds into the categories we already have.

One example is that Germans will often pronounce English 'th' as 'z' (because there is no lisp sound in German)... English people will pronounce Swedish 'ö' as 'o' (because English lacks that exact vowel sound), etc.

This is a form of simplification, in order to avoid learning the exact sounds in the new language, but it can also give you problems with being understood if the sounds deviate too much from the actual norm, or, even worse, if they overlap another distinctive phoneme in the language - confusion.

Yes, and no.

The body/mind actually will develop on its own the correct pronunciation of words/tones etc. For example, I speak English with a South East Southern accent. I do so, not on purpose, I do so because that is what I have been exposed to, and the body just mimics the sounds specific to that accent. If I moved to New Jersey, I would eventually speak as they do (Heaven Forbid).

After time, without practice, one should just natuarally begin to use the proper tones used in the Thai language. Sure, one can concentrate on them more so, by studying them etc. and yes, I would imagine this would speed things up.

I am not fluent in Thai at all. In fact as I write this, I am listening to Thai on my i-pod. But YEARS ago, I learned Mandarin Chinese, on a very fluent level.... I lived in Taiwan for several years, and I have a minor in Mandaring Chinese.

Any how, good luck to us all, because we are all learning.

I think Dakhar is on the right track. We all learn based on whatever our own personal strengths are. For me, I learn verbally. For others, there is more of a visual bias. To each his own. You know what your strengths are -- go with that. If you don't know your strengths, that is a larger question for an educational psychologist... Feel free to PM me if that question pertains to you.

Cheers,

dseawarrior

[Richard W]

Actually, the sound is more of a "ch" glottal fricative like the CH in CHanuka or la CHeim...

ค is not a glottal fricative. In Standard Thai it is an aspirated velar plosive. There is a tendency towards a fricative sound in some Northern Thai dialects, but it is not glottal, rather velar or perhaps uvular. According to the references, the CH in Chanukah is velar, not glottal. I guess it may depend on the dialect of Hebrew though.

Thai consonants

Blame the Indians for calling the velars 'throat sounds' กัณฐชะ.

[steveromagnino]

So, your comments are more to the point of "Where do I continue -- if I want written proficiency?"

So, point us in that direction, Ajan, feel free to share your favorite links or methods for learning Thai writing -- since you clearly have mastered that. Feel free to be as pedantic as you like... Pray tell us, how long have you been studying Thai? You are clearly ahead of most of the curve for this forum.

We wai to your greater wisdom... Feel free to share your knowledge constructively, clearly and willingly without the silly comments, na? (Krang raek khun kao jai -- geng jang loei!)

I will butt in and add my bit... I have terrible listening skills and as a result from sort of not concentrating on written Thai, I ended up with not having an adequate system for remembering vocab, and specifically vowel durations, a few tones and the consonants ป บ ด ต. Learning to write and read is another learning technique which helps using assocation and repitition. While some people learn in different ways, I think that not knowing how to read eventually becomes a problem as you start to spend time away from english writing and so on.

Therefore, I think within the first 3 months, having familiarised with most sounds, to learn the alphabet is not hard. I am the first in my direct family to be able to read Thai (my grand parents can read Chinese only and my mum can read a little chinese and full english). It took 1 month about of writing out the alphabet, learning the alphabet song and reading kids books, for about 15 minutes a day before bed. That was enough to know roughly what was going on, and a few of the characters still throw me

Sadly, if I had done this earlier, then I would probably have a better verbal command of Thai as I would have had the sounds right from the start and not approximated. As it is, anyway I think fairly early on it is well worth it to just learn to write; best way is to learn the alphabet song, use the kiddies books of copying out the characters, and then there is ample chance to learn vocab anywhere thereafter from road signs, books, etc.

Another thing I would add for everyone.... listen a lot to how to say something right, don't just start talking right away thinking you have it right.... that's my other problem

Also, it saves the problems of transliteration; I am still a bit unsure of Krang raek khun kao jai -- geng jang loei!... is this: the first time you actually understand me; well done!

Do i get it right?!