Chiang Mai Or Payap Tesl Course?

[Slim Chance]

I plan to take a TESL course in CM this month.

Chiang Mai U and Payap U have courses starting around the same time. Big price difference.

Any advice from the wise?

Thanks

[Loaded]

I assume so that you'll be qualified to teach English in a Thai school.

CMU's TEFL course is very new. I'm sure it will be professionally run but check that it's accredited by the Ministry of Education, otherwise it may not be recognised by schools, or the Ministry of Labour when applying for a work permit. Payap's, I believe, is a MA in TEFL. You'll be over qualified if all you want is the minimum qualification necessary to teach. An alternative is Text and Talk's TEFL at Suriwong Plaza/ThaPae Square. A cowboy company is Teach In Paradise - instruction from a bar, fake degres etc. and no accreditation with the MoE.

Personally, if I were you, I'd go for one of the two internationally recognised TEFL qualifications such as ECC's CELTA in Bangkok, or The Trinity TESOL (no provider in Thailand I believe). Both will be more expensive than other 'local' courses, but you'll have the peace of mind knowing that it can be used anywhere in the world. I believe the British Council only accept one of these qualifications at their language centres.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Loaded

[Ajarn]

I believe, is a MA in TEFL. You'll be over qualified if all you want is the minimum qualification necessary to teach.

Yes, But with an M.A., you are perfectly suited to a steady university gig, rather than the 250 baht per hour partimer's around now...

University life can be a nice life

Because I remember Payap Teachers as mostly failed CMU teachers (sorry! I was young!), and I've worked closey with some excellent Thai Educators at CMU over the years, my vote would be for the CMU program. But I've offered nothing to suggest that my opinion is of any real value, so.... ?

[chanchao]

Payap sucks mud and their students are all mia nois or rich kids who are too stupid to pass the CMU entrance exam. AND it's Christian (still?) Walk across their campus ONCE and chat with people. Then do the same at CMU. Night and day.

(....OK I'm severly biased too and all my friends used to be CMU students. Heck I'm married to one. And if you think their opinion of Payap is bad, ask one about Techno/commercial college students.

But good common sense advice on checking that they're good to get a work permit, and which is the more expensive one? Any room for negotiation?

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Ulysses G.]

I plan to take a TESL course in CM this month.

Chiang Mai U and Payap U have courses starting around the same time. Big price difference.

Any advice from the wise?

Thanks

They are both almost worthless.

Go to Bangkok and take the RSA if you want a REAL teaching credential.

[Norman d'Plume]

The Australia Centre used to offer a very good - intensive - TESL course lasting a week or so. Now cancelled due to lack of interest from consumers. They reccommend the CMU course now as the best alternitive.

[heybruce]

I plan to take a TESL course in CM this month.

Chiang Mai U and Payap U have courses starting around the same time. Big price difference.

Any advice from the wise?

Thanks

They are both almost worthless.

Go to Bangkok and take the RSA if you want a REAL teaching credential.

"They are both almost worthless."? What is the basis for this opinion? I checked out a number of TEFL courses and chose CMU primarily because they could guarantee teaching experience in front of a class of English language students. I didn't find any other school that could offer that, and most, including the "internationally recognized" ones, admitted that they struggled finding students that would actually show up for class.

[Crow Boy]

I assume so that you'll be qualified to teach English in a Thai school.

CMU's TEFL course is very new. I'm sure it will be professionally run but check that it's accredited by the Ministry of Education, otherwise it may not be recognised by schools, or the Ministry of Labour when applying for a work permit. Payap's, I believe, is a MA in TEFL. You'll be over qualified if all you want is the minimum qualification necessary to teach. An alternative is Text and Talk's TEFL at Suriwong Plaza/ThaPae Square. A cowboy company is Teach In Paradise - instruction from a bar, fake degres etc. and no accreditation with the MoE.

Personally, if I were you, I'd go for one of the two internationally recognised TEFL qualifications such as ECC's CELTA in Bangkok, or The Trinity TESOL (no provider in Thailand I believe). Both will be more expensive than other 'local' courses, but you'll have the peace of mind knowing that it can be used anywhere in the world. I believe the British Council only accept one of these qualifications at their language centres.

CMU course is very intensive and good. They offer in front of real class practice and are accredited with the MoE and TEFL

Payap offer a TEFL course which if you wish to do their Master's program in Teaching is a prerequisite subject. It is really intended for students going on to do their Postgrad program. It is only offered between semesters and run by the same lecturers as do the Post Grad course. It is recognised by the MoE and by the TEFL institute. They used to run a TOESL course but for a variety or reasons changed to TEFL.

text and talk is a sausage machine company churning out tefl "qualified" teachers of various ability to actually teach. They advertise in the Bangkok Post every Saturday and used to have an office near Taphae Gate near Gecko Books. Not sure where they are hiding (correction - operating from now). When I was looking at doing a TEFL course I called their posted number and only got the recording but no one ever called back.

Teach in Paradise is also a sausage company and has even lower standards BUT has one benefit - depending on your test results (and yes you really have to do a test) they offer a placement in a remote (generally around Chiang Rai) in a village somewhere where you can teach kids for no pay. This believe it or not is actually a lot of fun and benefits both the teacher and the kids.

I did mine with Teach in Paradise and the reality is that it is only printing the TEFL tickets as a money making exercise but they are recognised as such and you may just find out that the time you spend in the hills with real Thai kids is a life experience you will never regret

I later did another one at Payap when I was studying Thai as a full time student in the Post Grad program - it is a very good course with excellent instruction. It is shorter and cheaper than CMU because the assumption is that everyone has had at least a couple of years teaching experience "back home" in English.

Assuming you haven't done teaching before my recomendation is to do the CMU course which covers much more ground and assumes no teaching background. If you want a quick and dodgy ticket then either Teach in Paradise or Text and Talk.

The other option is to do what a large number of others have done which is to take a bus to Khao San Road in Bangkok and get a "while you wait" TEFL ticket, Lots of people pick up a couple of Degrees from Harvard or London University while they are there. Some places will even give a batch discount and deliver to the bar saving the effort of having to even pick them up.

Bottom line is that teaching is an option to work here in Thailand and sadly there are a lot of dodgy operators who use it as a means of ripping of people many of whom have a genuine desire to teach. There are a couple of courses in Bangkok which are very good and much more expensive - the Cambridge Universtiy TEFL course springs to mind but it is as expensive to do here as in the UK. Many of the better International Schools will not accept locally sourced TEFL (or other) certificates without other qualifications such as a teaching degree from a real university somewhere else. The Government schools are less picky and as long as you supply supporting evidence they will accept the teacher as and ENGLISH teacher who is teaching ENGLISH - you cannot teach anything else without a Thai teaching diploma or degree. If you are interested in going down that path and have a teaching degree/diploma now you can sit an exam in speaking/listening/reading/writing Thai at the Ministry of Education in Thailand - it is called a Boor Hock - year 6 and equates to the language skills of a Grade 6 student. You can then attend a teaching college (the Chiang Mai Teaching College is one that does this) and do a transition teaching course - it is a semester and done ONLY in Thai. If you pass the exams and are then granted a teacher's license. To do this you would have to have a really burning desire to be a teacher because the pay in government schools is really crap - subsistence level and you will take a lot of stick from the Ministry of Education. However you can work full time and be a real teacher of Thai kids.

There are lots of isolated village schools that will take a blind eye and happily take a native English speaking teacher on board with a TEFL ticket. They can be a great place to live and work. The legal maximum they can give you is 20 hours and mostly they will "pay" for 10 which is the regional budget. However suddenly you find youself taking kids aged 6-10 for about 6 hours a day 5 days a week without actually getting paid for it. The school put me up in the "government workers" accomodation with the unmarried police officers, teachers, and various others. They were very kind and it gave a major boost to my learning Thai because almost no one speaks Thai especially the English teacher who is generally a Thai who has 6 words of English and passes around the text book for everyone to practice, without actually saying much at all in English. I had kids knock on my door of my hut with food from home because they figured a single male farung would be incapable of feeding himself.

When I left I had kids in tears not wanting me to leave but I had to go back to University and had already delayed my supposed 2 week stint to nearly three months. Give it a try, you could do a lot worse and may actually benefit a lot of people in doing so.

Hope this helps

CB

[BlackArtemis]

TEFL international in Phuket is where I did my course and I was given time in front of a live class.

I was guided towards that program from people who work at CMU.

Btw there seems to be some real hate for Payap, I have lots of friends from CMU and from Payap. hel_l I even did an exchange program at CMU. There is no difference in the quality of people, both have good and bad. As for a MA in TESOL Payap offers an international program, I do not believe CMU offers this as well (please correct me if I am wrong). My Thai wife has her BA in English from CMU and her MA in TEFL (they recently changed to TESOL) from Payap's international program. She finds CMU's MA a joke as her own words are "Why would you study "teaching English" in any other language but English?"

[Crow Boy]

TEFL international in Phuket is where I did my course and I was given time in front of a live class.

I was guided towards that program from people who work at CMU.

Btw there seems to be some real hate for Payap, I have lots of friends from CMU and from Payap. hel_l I even did an exchange program at CMU. There is no difference in the quality of people, both have good and bad. As for a MA in TESOL Payap offers an international program, I do not believe CMU offers this as well (please correct me if I am wrong). My Thai wife has her BA in English from CMU and her MA in TEFL (they recently changed to TESOL) from Payap's international program. She finds CMU's MA a joke as her own words are "Why would you study "teaching English" in any other language but English?"

Like anything there will always be a "us v them" mentality In the UK there is the Ye Olde Stone v Redbrick Universities, in Australia it is Sydney University v Everywhere else

Part of the issue is that Payap is a Private University that gets the bulk of its funding from the USA, one of the major founders is a Branch (can't remember which one, off the top of my head) of the the Baptish Church. It is built on land belonging to the McCormick foundation which own and operate the McCormick Hospital. In the old days the university was directly opposite the Hospital and taught nursing, child care, and laguages Thai and English) They still have part of the Nursing Faculty there but the main courses are taught in the new faculty behind Carre Four, which incidentally is built on land leased from the McCormick foundation.

CMU is the prestige university on the North and has a deservedly good reputation for is students, curriculum, and quality of its degree. It is the only one with Medicine and Dentistry and the main Engineering School.

The theory is that if the student is very smart, worked very hard, and gets very good marks they go to Chulilongcorn in Bangkok and get a real degree in whatever.

If they are smart, work hard and get very good grades they get into CMU and get a proper degreee in one of the "hard" schools eg Medicine, Dentistry, Engineering etc

If the student is smart but didn't quite get good enough marks they will go to Maejo and do Agricultural Science, Computer Engineering or Accounting

If the student is smart but didn't get enough marks for Maejo they will fill in the places at the smaller Universities and Colleges

If the student is a little bit smart but has parents who are wealthy and can afford the fees they will go to Payap - usually referred to Pay Up which is what happens there all the time.

So the perception is that Payap students are dumb but come from good families and CMU are smart and hard workers

The other perception is that Payap is a Party University where the students don't really have to work hard to pass - that has some merit to be honest especially in some of the faculties but they still have to pass their exams or are rejected from the University

The next perception is that the girls at Payap are generally very pretty (accurate) but dumb (not accurate) So it is common for the boys from CMU to travel to Payap and eat at Carre Four or in the canteens on campus while they check out the girls. The bars and restaurants on the outer ring road have a lot (or used to before the Dean banned them) of Payap girls and it was a happy hunting ground for CMU boys.

THe explanation given to me by one on the students when I was teaching Conversational English there, is that Thai boys feel intimidated by the CMU girls who frequently are on the top order of the university lists. They want a "smartish" but not too smart girl from a good family and looks great. So they regard Payap as a finishing school for girls looking for a husband.

Stereotypes are such an interesting thing

I have seen and taught some very smart people from both Universities and also a few who are really struggling. The post grad school has a pretty good reputation but I am slightly biased to that because I did my course there

CB

[Loaded]

I assume so that you'll be qualified to teach English in a Thai school.

CMU's TEFL course is very new. I'm sure it will be professionally run but check that it's accredited by the Ministry of Education, otherwise it may not be recognised by schools, or the Ministry of Labour when applying for a work permit. Payap's, I believe, is a MA in TEFL. You'll be over qualified if all you want is the minimum qualification necessary to teach. An alternative is Text and Talk's TEFL at Suriwong Plaza/ThaPae Square. A cowboy company is Teach In Paradise - instruction from a bar, fake degres etc. and no accreditation with the MoE.

Personally, if I were you, I'd go for one of the two internationally recognised TEFL qualifications such as ECC's CELTA in Bangkok, or The Trinity TESOL (no provider in Thailand I believe). Both will be more expensive than other 'local' courses, but you'll have the peace of mind knowing that it can be used anywhere in the world. I believe the British Council only accept one of these qualifications at their language centres.

CMU course is very intensive and good. They offer in front of real class practice and are accredited with the MoE and TEFL

CB

I think you'll find the CMU course is accredited by CMU and not the MoE. There isn't a 'TEFL' organisation so difficult for it to accredit anything.

SEE (started after this thread begun) is run by a mate of mine and for their teaching practices they go to Anubahn Suandek, Anubahn Chiang Mai (primary or pratom section), the government nursing college just past the 700 year stadium, Rajmankala University in Lampang and in addition one of the practices is 1-1 in a language school. - real students.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Loaded

[Crow Boy]

I think you'll find the CMU course is accredited by CMU and not the MoE. There isn't a 'TEFL' organisation so difficult for it to accredit anything.

SEE (started after this thread begun) is run by a mate of mine and for their teaching practices they go to Anubahn Suandek, Anubahn Chiang Mai (primary or pratom section), the government nursing college just past the 700 year stadium, Rajmankala University in Lampang and in addition one of the practices is 1-1 in a language school. - real students.

TEFL is an organisation which started as a register of Native English speakers to build some qualifications for prospective teachers in foreign countries. It has several functions:

1) registery for people who have completed the TEFL course and are accredited by it

2) a registry for people who are looking for work in foreign countries as English Language teachers. They have jobs in most countries including Thailand

3) to provide recommendations to Government organisations for minimum standard skills as an English Language Teacher

FYI you can check in at http://www.tefl.com/home/firsttime.html

CMU is an accredited University with the MoE - actually as a government University it doesn't need to do this. The TEFL course is accepted by the MoE and is accredited by TEFL who despite the number of cowboy organisation that trade of their name try to keep their name above board.

Anyone with a TEFL certificate from CMU will have it accepted by the MoE - assuming they didn't pick it up in Kao San Rd.

CB

Edited March 29, 2007 by Crow Boy

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Part of the issue is that Payap is a Private University that gets the bulk of its funding from the USA, one of the major founders is a Branch (can't remember which one, off the top of my head) of the the Baptish Church.

Is it possible that you're thinking of the Church of Christ if Thailand - who own Dara Academy, Prince Royals College, Chiang Mai Christian School and McCormick.

I don't think that Payap is controlled by that group now though, I worked at one of the afore-mentioned schools and they never mentioned Payap being controlled by their organisation.

On topic, a good friend of mine has recently been appointed to a managerial postion in the CMU program. He wants to radically shake up the way it is organised. He is a very dedicated person and IMHO will make the program the best TEFL option in CM.

[Loaded]

I think you'll find the CMU course is accredited by CMU and not the MoE. There isn't a 'TEFL' organisation so difficult for it to accredit anything.

SEE (started after this thread begun) is run by a mate of mine and for their teaching practices they go to Anubahn Suandek, Anubahn Chiang Mai (primary or pratom section), the government nursing college just past the 700 year stadium, Rajmankala University in Lampang and in addition one of the practices is 1-1 in a language school. - real students.

TEFL is an organisation which started as a register of Native English speakers to build some qualifications for prospective teachers in foreign countries. It has several functions:

1) registery for people who have completed the TEFL course and are accredited by it

2) a registry for people who are looking for work in foreign countries as English Language teachers. They have jobs in most countries including Thailand

3) to provide recommendations to Government organisations for minimum standard skills as an English Language Teacher

FYI you can check in at http://www.tefl.com/home/firsttime.html

CMU is an accredited University with the MoE - actually as a government University it doesn't need to do this. The TEFL course is accepted by the MoE and is accredited by TEFL who despite the number of cowboy organisation that trade of their name try to keep their name above board.

Anyone with a TEFL certificate from CMU will have it accepted by the MoE - assuming they didn't pick it up in Kao San Rd.

CB

TEFL.com is a commercial website that accepts adverts from anyone. They are not a regulatory body nor do they accredit anyone or anything.

The Language Institute than runs CMU's TEFL is NOT accredited by the MoE. It's accredited by CMU...which is accredited by the MoE. - check with Dr. Mat.

[Payapvoice]

I am one of the instructors in the TESOL programs at Payap University. Although the original question regarding the PYU and CMU TESOL / TEFL certificate courses was posted a long time ago, the thread has become active again, and I feel that there have been some points made which merit response.

The PYU and CMU certificates are rather different products. In the past at Payap we did run an intensive (5 week) TESOL certificate program. Now we have changed this to a course taught over one semester (15 weeks), with two input sessions of two hours per week. Teaching observation and practice, feedback, and tutorial support is additional to this. We do not see ourselves in competition with the CMU course. For some people an intensive course is attractive; others may find that a part-time course suits them better. We have found that an extended course seems to allows more space for learning than did the intensive course.

The TESOL programs at Payap extend beyond certificates. We also have an "Advanced Certificate" program for experienced teachers (mostly university teachers from China), and we have an MA in TESOL. Again we do not see our MA as being in competition with the MA at CMU. We have good professional relations with some of the senior instructors at CMU. Sometimes students come to PYU having been referred to us by CMU. On other occasions we suggest to potential applicants that the CMU program may be more appropriate for them. I think that the basic difference between the two programs is the intended target group. The CMU student body is Thai, ours is international. Of course we welcome Thai students, but they have to be prepared to study in an international environment, reading and producing academic work in English. For "international" do not read "farang". In my time at Payap we have had students from around a dozen different countries around the world. The mix of educational and linguistic backgrounds is one feature of the MA that makes the teaching interesting. The philosophy behind the PYU TESOL programs is that English and English teaching do not belong to so-called native speakers. We can all learn from language educators and English users from other parts of the world.

A final point is that I would make is that the PYU MA TESOL program is pretty challenging academically. I'd be wary about extrapolating from perceptions – accurate or otherwise – about any undergraduate courses here. My own Masters in TESOL was from a highly reputable university in the UK. But I know that the academic challenge here is, if anything, greater. And I'm convinced that the quality of student thesis research at Payap is now higher than in my TESOL program in the UK.

More information about Payap TESOL programs can be found on our website.