Canadian Sisters Died Of 'Food Poisoning' In Thailand Hotel

[ttelise]

I don't know or really care what they ingested.

Now we're getting somewhere!

an accurate statement at last!

So, if you don't care what they ingested, then stop posting endless misleading things about what you think they may have ingested!

Oop, another one. You research skills are aweful since these are all on page 2 of my search. See last sentence below in quote from page.

http://www.healthhype.com/coughing-and-spitting-up-blood-or-bloody-mucus.html

Bleeding from the mouth may be due to:

Injuries: teeth brushing, biting the tongue, tooth extraction, rough food, foreign objects, etc.

Dry mouth

Mouth sores

Periodontosis, an infection of gums with detached gums and loose teeth; the main cause is poor mouth hygiene.

Oral cancer, appearing anywhere in the mouth as a small red or white spot that can bleed; heavy drinkers and smokers are at most risk.

Infections: Herpes simplex virus, shingles, measles, oral thrush (candida yeast infection)

Ingestion of corrosive fluids, like acids or petrol, may cause severe damage and bleeding from the mouth, throat, esophagus and stomach mucosa.

Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums.

[ttelise]

And another website stating arsenic causes bleeding gums.

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/symptoms/bleeding_gums/common.htm

[guyinthailand]

And another website stating arsenic causes bleeding gums.

http://www.rightdiag...gums/common.htm

Provide the quote from the above link you say that says arsenic causes bleeding gums.

what you did was google 'arsenic bleeding gums' and you see rightdiagnosis.com come up and you think that site says arsenic causes bleeding gums but all you REALLY see is 'arsenic bleeding gums' as search retrieval words.

find the quote that says what you say it says.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[guyinthailand]

Here, I'll do it for you: here's what your link says

Arsenic Poisoning: Disorders associated with acute or chronic exposure to compounds containing ARSENIC (ARSENICALS) which may be fatal. Acute oral ingestion is associated with gastrointestinal symptoms and an encephalopathy which may manifest as SEIZURES, mental status changes, and COMA. Chronic exposure is associated with mucosal irritation, desquamating rash, myalgias, peripheral neuropathy, and white transverse (Mees) lines in the fingernails. (Adams et al., Principles of Neurology, 6th ed, p1212).

Source: MeSH 2007

and here's the link to the above quote

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/medical/arsenic_poisoning.htm

See how to do it now?

[ttelise]

Here, I'll do it for you: here's what your link says

Arsenic Poisoning: Disorders associated with acute or chronic exposure to compounds containing ARSENIC (ARSENICALS) which may be fatal. Acute oral ingestion is associated with gastrointestinal symptoms and an encephalopathy which may manifest as SEIZURES, mental status changes, and COMA. Chronic exposure is associated with mucosal irritation, desquamating rash, myalgias, peripheral neuropathy, and white transverse (Mees) lines in the fingernails. (Adams et al., Principles of Neurology, 6th ed, p1212).

Source: MeSH 2007

and here's the link to the above quote

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/medical/arsenic_poisoning.htm

See how to do it now?

Read whole article. The problem with you is you think by someone giving a synopsis of symptoms they are including all symptoms.

Some of these may relate to chronic minor exposure while some may relate to acute exposure. Someone getting a huge enough dose to die quickly is most likely going to have bleeding from the mucous membranes of the mouth or gum.

[stickyrice2000]

I do not believe that it has anything to do with food poisoning. They were murdered or poisoned. Of course, the facts cannot be disclosed because it will scare off tourists.

[guyinthailand]

You kept stating that arsenic poisoning does not cause bleeding gums.

You can't read. I said ACUTE arsenic poisoining does not cause bleeding gums. And I DOUBT chronic exposure does either, as that idea is nowhere to be found in the modern medical literature (your 1960 google out of copyright book notwithstanding).

this is how dense YOU are: you confuse acute with chronic and you make statements you can't back up.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[guyinthailand]

And re CHRONIC aresenic poisoning, notice how your idea of bleeding gums is absent fromt he following:

Chronic arsenic toxicity due to drinking arsenic-contaminated water has been one of the worst environmental health hazards affecting eight districts of West Bengal since the early eighties. Detailed clinical examination and investigation of 248 such patients revealed protean clinical manifestations of such toxicity. Over and above hyperpigmentation and keratosis, weakness, anaemia, burning sensation of eyes, solid swelling of legs, liver fibrosis, chronic lung disease, gangrene of toes, neuropathy, and skin cancer are some of the other manifestations. A cross-sectional survey involving 7683 participants of all ages was conducted in an arsenic-affected region between April 1995 and March 1996. Out of a population of 7683 surveyed, 3467 and 4216 people consumed water containing As below and above 0.05 mg/L, respectively. Except pain abdomen the prevalence of all other clinical manifestations tested (e.g., pigmentation, keratosis, hepatomegaly, weakness, nausea, lung disease and neuropathy) were found to be significantly higher in As exposed people (water As > 0.05 mg/L) compared to control population (water As level < 0.05 mg/L). The prevalence of pigmentation and keratosis, hepatomegaly, chronic respiratory disease and weakness rose significantly with increasing arsenic concentrations in drinking water. The respiratory effects were most pronounced in individuals with high arsenic water concentrations who also had skin lesion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12635824

So, you're wrong twice. Once about chronic and another time about acute.

Time to throw in the towel.

[guyinthailand]

Bleeding gums blue fingers and toes ect are symptoms of D.I.C, Disseminated intravascular coagulation.

The affected person is often acutely ill and shocked with widespread hemorrhage (common bleeding sites are mouth,

Oy vey!

DIC--disseminated intravascular coagulation--is not arsenic poisoning.

Oh, man, this is getting surreal.

I told you that you just make stuff up as you go along!

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[guyinthailand]

The acute renal failure caused by Arsenic and system wide organ failure results in hemorrhaging of mucous membranes in the mouth.

Nowhere in the literature does it say arsenic causes 'hemorrhaging of the mucuous membranes in the mouth".

You know what they call a person who refuses to see reality for what it is, don't you?

You're wrong for the umpteenth time. It doesn't cause BLEEDING from the GUMS. Either chronic or acute.

Effects on Humans: Arsenic compounds are irritants, systemic toxins, and carcinogens in humans. Acute exposures to arsenic compounds are considered rare in industry; most poisonings are the result of ingestion of contaminated food and drinks [Hathaway et al. 1991]. The trivalent arsenic compounds are the most toxic to humans. Initial responses to acute poisoning include burning of the lips, constriction of the throat, and dysphagia [Hathaway et al. 1991]. This is followed by excruciating pain in the abdominal region, severe nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Toxic effects on the liver, blood-forming organs, both central and peripheral nervous systems, and the cardiovascular system may also occur. Convulsions, coma, and death may follow within 24 hours of severe poisonings [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Acute inhalation exposures to arsenic compounds may result in damage to the mucous membranes of the respiratory system [Parmeggiani 1983]. Severe irritation of the nasal mucosae, larynx, and bronchi have been observed following exposures. In addition, exposed skin may become irritated; cases of dermatitis have been reported following dermal contact with arsenic compounds [Parmeggiani 1983]. Conjunctivitis, visual disturbances, hyperpigmentation of the skin, and perforation of the nasal septum have been described in the literature [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Chronic exposure causes damage to the nervous system, cardiovascular system, and liver [Parmeggiani 1983]. Anemia and leukocytopenia have been reported to occur following chronic exposures to arsenic compounds [Parmeggiani 1983]. Cancers of the skin, lungs, larynx, lymphoid system, and viscera have been identified as potential responses to arsenic poisoning [Hathaway et al. 1991]. IARC has reviewed the available data and considers arsenic to be a Group 1 carcinogen with sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in humans [iARC 1987].

http://www.osha.gov/...ecognition.html

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[Quantico]

Here is what I believa might have happened:

The symptoms are textbook Arsenic poising (more common accidental, than commited).

Most common ways of getting accidental Arsenic-posing: Working in tin mine or around pesticides.

Phi Phi island have tin mines and big problem with poisinous snakes and scorpions and use extreme

amounts of arsenic pestides (forbidden in us since 70's) to kill them. There have reputedly been tests

done showing small signs of arsenic in the norwegian woman who died a couple of years ago under similiar circumtsances.

Lockin into it all: 4 dead at Phi Phi island. First 2 in 2009 (one us and one norwegian citizen). This current:

two canadien women. usa, canada and norway all are countries who been main areas of the swine-flu virus and

vaccinations. Phi Phi has recently had outbreakes of Dengue fever (close relative of H1N1/swine flu).

Thou swine flu have been widely recorded, fatal casas all seem to have been at places where there are

high levels of Arsenic in water (mexico, bangladesch... thailand.). Arsenic destroys the bodies ability to fight viruses

like those. I think the women might have suffered from Dengue hemorragic fever or Dengue shock syndrome.

Either thru mosquito bites that would normally just cause serious uncomfort, or antibodies from previous vaccinations

accting as receivers for Dengue virus (swine flu vaccine can do this).

[noitom]

There were a few cases of food poisoning a few years ago. It was concluded that it was a "fish ball supplier." They were in fact reporting at the time that it was "sometimes common" for fish ball suppliers to "substitute" this pakpao for other fish because it was cheaper. No newspaper follow up was ever done and the story just disintegrated like most.

[guyinthailand]

The symptoms are textbook Arsenic poising (more common accidental, than commited).

Have you actually not bothered to read any of the above posts? Is it asking too much for you to do a little homework before you come here making these mistakes? All you had to do was read the above posts and see how it couldn't possibly be arsenic poisoning.

The symptoms are classic rat poison and far, far removed from arsenic poisoning.

I think the women might have suffered from Dengue hemorragic fever or Dengue shock syndrome.

Nope, can't be Dengue. Bleeding from gums and bruising are not symptoms of Dengue. Moreover, you get fevers, rash, headaches for days and days before hemorrhagic fever develops.

Of patients with dengue hemorrhagic fever, 90% are younger than 15 years. The initial phase of dengue hemorrhagic fever is similar to that of dengue fever and other febrile viral illnesses. Shortly after the fever breaks (or sometimes within 24 hours before), signs of plasma leakage appear, along with the development of hemorrhagic symptoms such as bleeding from sites of trauma, gastrointestinal bleeding, and hematuria. Patients may also present with abdominal pain, vomiting, febrile seizures (in children), and a decreased level of consciousness.

If left untreated, dengue hemorrhagic fever most likely progresses to dengue shock syndrome. Common symptoms in impending shock include abdominal pain, vomiting, and restlessness. Patients also may have symptoms related to circulatory failure.

http://emedicine.med...215840-clinical

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[smedly]

&lt;deleted&gt; threads and threads posts and posts about this poison does this and that one does that................GIVE IT A REST already

All I am willing to believe right now is that two inocent young girls are dead..................leave it at that

if you want to pursue the matter then everyone should petition the canadian emabassy to make sure they take conteol of this atrocity

no more poison threads please

sorry typing in the dark

please plase no more poison posts

Edited June 17, 2012 by smedly

[ttelise]

Here is what I believa might have happened:

The symptoms are textbook Arsenic poising (more common accidental, than commited).

Most common ways of getting accidental Arsenic-posing: Working in tin mine or around pesticides.

Phi Phi island have tin mines and big problem with poisinous snakes and scorpions and use extreme

amounts of arsenic pestides (forbidden in us since 70's) to kill them. There have reputedly been tests

done showing small signs of arsenic in the norwegian woman who died a couple of years ago under similiar circumtsances.

Lockin into it all: 4 dead at Phi Phi island. First 2 in 2009 (one us and one norwegian citizen). This current:

two canadien women. usa, canada and norway all are countries who been main areas of the swine-flu virus and

vaccinations. Phi Phi has recently had outbreakes of Dengue fever (close relative of H1N1/swine flu).

Thou swine flu have been widely recorded, fatal casas all seem to have been at places where there are

high levels of Arsenic in water (mexico, bangladesch... thailand.). Arsenic destroys the bodies ability to fight viruses

like those. I think the women might have suffered from Dengue hemorragic fever or Dengue shock syndrome.

Either thru mosquito bites that would normally just cause serious uncomfort, or antibodies from previous vaccinations

accting as receivers for Dengue virus (swine flu vaccine can do this).

I mentioned at one point it could be a viral source. Thus would be bad bug though, but the symptoms fit and both could have been taken down quickly keeping them from seeking help.

The onset of symptoms would be largely dependent upon the girls' immune systems. One could develop symptoms quickly while latency period for other may be longer.

Virus such as hemorrhagic fevers could definitely cause DIC causing symptoms described. So could septic shock from a raging infection.

[Quantico]

Again!: Don't shoot of ignorance. http://cmr.asm.org/content/11/3/480.full

Also most harmfull agent used in rat-poison is Arsenic, AND if you google again, before

lecture. google the effects of high levels of arsenic in ground water on bodies ability to fight

viruses like that. Clinical, correct studies has shown that amounts as low as 5-10 ppm.

Most internationally used limit is at 10ppm.

[cdnvic]

Next insult(s) gets a week off. Grow up you guys.

[ttelise]

&lt;deleted&gt; threads and threads posts and posts about this poison does this and that one does that................GIVE IT A REST already

All I am willing to believe right now is that two inocent young girls are dead..................leave it at that

if you want to pursue the matter then everyone should petition the canadian emabassy to make sure they take conteol of this atrocity

no more poison threads please

sorry typing in the dark

please plase no more poison posts

Agreed. Thus thing hit close to home since I have two teenage daughters and an 8 month old at that. My two teenagers were in a car wreck recently with my 16 year old driving and it hit me that I could lose them both in fell sweep.

I cannot imagine what those poor parents are going through. Sounds like a very close nit family. I engaged because I am hoping someone somewhere will read and reject Thai food poisoning theory and press hard to discover the truth. I would want to know if my daughters and u would want this to keep from happening to other parents and families out there.

[ttelise]

Next insult(s) gets a week off. Grow up you guys.

My apologies to everyone. I am done with the bs.

[guyinthailand]

Virus such as hemorrhagic fevers could definitely cause DIC causing symptoms described. So could septic shock from a raging infection.

Septic shock doesn't present with bleeding gums. These women had bleeding gums.

"Symptoms of sepsis are often nonspecific and include fever, chills, rigors, fatigue, malaise, nausea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, anxiety, or confusion."

http://emedicine.med...168402-clinical

Vomiting and bleeding from the gums can indeed be found in DIC but

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation is rare, but it may occur as a complication of severe blood loss, severe infections, and severe burns. Other causes include head injury, liver disease, sepsis, and adult respiratory distress syndrome.

Common symptoms of disseminated intravascular coagulation include bleeding gums, coughing blood, heavy menstrual bleeding, vomiting blood, rectal bleeding, blood in stool, black stool, and nosebleeds. Other symptoms include confusion, cough, fever, and a rash that looks like bruises of broken blood vessels in the skin.

http://www.freemd.co...on/overview.htm

Doubt they had a RARE disease, much less at the same time. But it is theoretically possible.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[guyinthailand]

Again!: Don't shoot of ignorance. http://cmr.asm.org/c...t/11/3/480.full

Also most harmfull agent used in rat-poison is Arsenic, .

Arsenic is not in rat poison. Warfarin etc is.

P.S. your url link you provide above leads to nowhere.

Edited June 17, 2012 by guyinthailand

[FlyByNights]

What a crock of shyt !!! Food poisoning?

Let's get real here, I've had food poisoning several times while living in Thailand, sure I thought I was going to die, but the chances of this happening are almost on hear of.

So anyways, where did they go eat? Is the restaurant still open, ah right it's already been closed and everything is safe now.

[noitom]

Puffer fish meat used in fish balls in Thailand. Man arrested

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294190,00.html

Condolences to the girls' families

Edited June 17, 2012 by cdnvic
Replaced external forum link with proper news source.

[Quantico]

Have no interest in "winning" this; came here to discuss, not battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic

Puffer fish posion is what's used at Haiti

when severly damaging another human and

calling it Voodoo.

Feel childish keeping retorting and apologize it it seems insenitive. Will not answer

to this again. Peace

[crazygreg44]

Once on Koh Lipe, I ate pufferfish ( pla pakphoa) - knowingly - of which the poisonous liver had been carefully removed by the cook, me watching every step. I ate a fish-soup made from what was left of the fish's meat. Shortly after i returned to my bungalow, where I went asleep, I woke up about one hour later, sweating and to my stomach making awful noises as if there was a train driving through it. I barely made it to the toilet where I vomited my innerds out ! After it was out, my body calmed down and everything was back to normal !

The symptoms of the two victims - may they Rest in Peace ! - clearly point to insecticide - arsenic involved - poisoning. It is obvious the hotel is involved and so the label "food poisoning" will be used to whitewash their lack of responsibility. Since the Chiang Mai incident, we should be able to read the signs on the wall. It also would be interesting to know of more incidents that had not been fatal at all, but resulted in dizzy feeling or rash and nausea. If we could get hold of tourists who went sick ( without severe results, just common feeling nauseatic or headaches) after checking in into their rooms, it would proove that the heavy use of bug-sprays and insecticieds are responsible for all these cases. It would not overly surprise me, as the Thais love to use chemical monster toxins on their roomside and field fauna.

[guyinthailand]

The symptoms of the two victims - may they Rest in Peace ! - clearly point to insecticide - arsenic involved - poisoning.

did you just jump on the forum and not bother to read previous quotes? Arsenic has been dismissed as a possible poison. Rat poison with warfarin etc is the likely culprit.

They were murdered until proven otherwise.

[Familyonthemove]

A tragic loss ... very sad. I don't think we have enough details to find the answer ourselves, but I hope someone is able to carry out a proper investigation.

I've been working in the food safety field for over 30 years, from government enforcement officer to working for an international public health and safety company; and I've never seen a case of bacterial or viral food poisoning with symptoms anything like those described in the article. I have seen the results of accidental chemcial poisoning (organochlorine pesticides mainly) in india, and that seems to be a closer fit, although it would need to be a high dose. (I've seen the effect of Warfarin on Pest Control operatives .... it takes a huge dose to cause acute any symptoms in something as large as a human, and so it could not be accidental)

Perhaps by 'food poisoning', the police meant it could be poison in their food? We generally only see the translated news in the press, and we may not see the real meaning. Has anyone seen local language reports ... they may tell a different story?

Edited June 17, 2012 by Familyonthemove

[ttelise]

Virus such as hemorrhagic fevers could definitely cause DIC causing symptoms described. So could septic shock from a raging infection.

Septic shock doesn't present with bleeding gums. These women had bleeding gums.

"Symptoms of sepsis are often nonspecific and include fever, chills, rigors, fatigue, malaise, nausea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, anxiety, or confusion."

http://emedicine.med...168402-clinical

Vomiting and bleeding from the gums can indeed be found in DIC but

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation is rare, but it may occur as a complication of severe blood loss, severe infections, and severe burns. Other causes include head injury, liver disease, sepsis, and adult respiratory distress syndrome.

Common symptoms of disseminated intravascular coagulation include bleeding gums, coughing blood, heavy menstrual bleeding, vomiting blood, rectal bleeding, blood in stool, black stool, and nosebleeds. Other symptoms include confusion, cough, fever, and a rash that looks like bruises of broken blood vessels in the skin.

http://www.freemd.co...on/overview.htm

Doubt they had a RARE disease, much less at the same time. But it is theoretically possible.

I agree with last statement for sure, especially due to latency/immune issues.

This seems to cause confusion. Septic shock can cause systematic organ failure which in turn promotes a DIC response causing bleeding in mouth.

Maybe this helps:

A death certificate would not say death by arsenic poisoning. It would say:

Cause of death:

(1) acute renal or organ failure

(2) Shock

(3) Usually 3 blanks for primary cause

Then state

"Secondary to:"

Arsenic poisoning

There are like perhaps a 100 symptoms for arsenic poisoning. These abstracts or synopsis you see on public related medical pages only list a few typically seen in when chronic or minor.

I deal with sepsis way too often because I represent nursing homes. They get decubitus ulcers and osteomylitus that can develop into sepsis or catheters are a common pathway for bacteria to get into blood stream and causes sepsis.

You never see bleeding gums when they are sitting around running 104 temps, blpod pressure drop, rapid resp rate and pulse.

If they go into septic shock and start having organ failure, then yes you could see bleeding in mouth due to DIC.

[PoodMaiDai]

The sad thing is, all of us posting here, with zero experience with such matters, have as good a chance of figuring out the cause of death as the Thai police.

But I guess that is what happens when you buy your way onto the police force.

[ttelise]

The sad thing is, all of us posting here, with zero experience with such matters, have as good a chance of figuring out the cause of death as the Thai police.

But I guess that is what happens when you buy your way onto the police force.

I do. Acute Arsenic poisoning is pretty rare in US. Not many still use it for murder, but it does happen. About 10 years ago my firm had a client that owned large hotels, shopping centers, gyms, warehouses, and commercial property all over the US. Well he turned up dead and trace amounts of arsenic were found in his GI track. The issue became whether it was administered over a long period of time by wife or if he had acute poisoning. It has been a while, but learned more than I wanted to know about Arsenic back then.

My primary clients are doctors, lawyers, and nursing homes and I deal daily with causes of death and differential diagnosis. Am I doctor of medicine, no. I will say that I have to become an expert on what topic is at issue to be able to challenge doctors and medical experts hired by plaintiffs or I am going to be completely ineffective in representing my client and impeaching these witnesses against my clients.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ttelise