Phuket Opinion: Corruption And The Duality Of Man

[LivinginKata]

That is something I can accept as truth. Very different from 'NJ' knowing about things he never hears about.

Can we be a bit more specific. Many reports of what, assault, battery? How man actually needed to go to hospital in all the time you've been here? 1 maybe 2?

Not condoning it obviously, just trying to put it in to a true perspective.

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

[HongKongPhooey]

I think I already answered that. It is the nature of crime and media. Are you actually suggesting that every incidence of violence or scam by a tuk tuk driver or every scam or injury caused by jet ski's or parasail boat is reported to the police and media? I personally witnessed 20+ tuktuk drivers beating the snot out of a couple of farangs on Bangla Rd that went on for several minutes until the cops showed up and carted the bloody pair off in the back of a police truck. No Thai's were detained or questioned that I would see. When I reported it to the media, the police refused it had happened.

No, but that also leaves the gate open for wild exaggeration and fear mongering. We can make an educated guess as to how prevalent something is based on the KNOWN facts.

Yet again it confirms my argument that you are having no effect on the situation what so ever. You have admitted as much several times but then get the hump when I say it.

[HongKongPhooey]

Far... do you wish to watch the sunset together or why are you talking about the size of the ocean now?

What I said was rather straight forward. You moaned about the roped off area. I asked you how much of the ocean do people need to swim in? Are jet skis upsetting some practising channel swimmers or something?

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

I get no pleasure from winding people up, not my intention what so ever. If my opinion frustrates people then that is their issue to deal with not mine.

I'm done with it anyhow. Unless people like 'NKM' answer straight forward questions and give me a list of all the ways corruption has got worse and how it affects him, then I can only assume he was making baseless, exaggerated statements.

Lets not forget what the OP's opinion was on this matter. Not that dissimilar from mine. People seem to have glossed over that fact.

[NomadJoe]

I think I already answered that. It is the nature of crime and media. Are you actually suggesting that every incidence of violence or scam by a tuk tuk driver or every scam or injury caused by jet ski's or parasail boat is reported to the police and media? I personally witnessed 20+ tuktuk drivers beating the snot out of a couple of farangs on Bangla Rd that went on for several minutes until the cops showed up and carted the bloody pair off in the back of a police truck. No Thai's were detained or questioned that I would see. When I reported it to the media, the police refused it had happened.

No, but that also leaves the gate open for wild exaggeration and fear mongering. We can make an educated guess as to how prevalent something is based on the KNOWN facts.

Yet again it confirms my argument that . You have admitted as much several times but then get the hump when I say it.

Shifting back to that again are we?

How ironic your making claims of wild exaggeration when you keep saying things like "You have admitted you are having no effect on the situation what several times." which is a complete fabrication by you, and not at all what I have ever said. I said we were fighting a losing battle and I said it once. Doesn't mean we will lose the war, or that we haven't made some differences at times. The frustrated comments of foreigners are often quoted in the media, and even officials have commented that "such and such is something I hear a lot of foreigners complaining about." when they make some announcement of a crackdown or or new policy. This entire "opinion" piece is about forum comments, even if it's clearly biased to the other side. It does make a difference. You cannot prove it doesn't.

[NomadJoe]

That is something I can accept as truth. Very different from 'NJ' knowing about things he never hears about.

Can we be a bit more specific. Many reports of what, assault, battery? How man actually needed to go to hospital in all the time you've been here? 1 maybe 2?

Not condoning it obviously, just trying to put it in to a true perspective.

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

Me too. It's like trying to have a conversation with a bar of soap in the shower.

[Guest]

Far... do you wish to watch the sunset together or why are you talking about the size of the ocean now?

What I said was rather straight forward. You moaned about the roped off area. I asked you how much of the ocean do people need to swim in? Are jet skis upsetting some practising channel swimmers or something?

Ah. That's moaning. Thanks for clarifying it!

What would make me happy that it would be possible to float on an 'floating matrix' or what ever it's called in English. Then just close eyes and not to worry of taken away from the allowed area. Not the other way around. I would also be happy if there would not be noise pollution.. or when coming to this, not so many beach sellers. Just like it was 10 years ago.. oh sorry, I forgot that nothing have changed since that.

[HongKongPhooey]

That is something I can accept as truth. Very different from 'NJ' knowing about things he never hears about.

Can we be a bit more specific. Many reports of what, assault, battery? How man actually needed to go to hospital in all the time you've been here? 1 maybe 2?

Not condoning it obviously, just trying to put it in to a true perspective.

HKP - you have spun me into your web for long enough today. You have your opinion, many of the rest of us have a differing opinion. I am assuming you get some sort of jolly from trying to wind us up. I am having a break.

Me too. It's like trying to have a conversation with a bar of soap in the shower.

My very first post on this thread was simply asking for clarification as to what the signs were that tourism was in trouble. Immediately several people launched in to posts trying to convince me that corruption exists and that I must be a fool for denying it. I must have been accused of denying it's existence about 15 times between you and 'NKM' when all I asked was for proof of the decline in tourism or an estimation when it was expected. I was then accused of twisting the argument to suit my needs when in truth the OP was mirroring my own opinions. How does that make me the slippery one exactly??

One of the other things I was referring to was not forum related. You said you told the police about the incident on Bangla and they did nothing about it. That is another example of what I was referring to when I said you admit that you change nothing.

You can always put me out of my misery by telling me what exactly it is you have achieved? Last time someone asked you that you said you wouldn't tell because they would probably pass the info on to the drivers. I'm assuming you've moved past that sillyness by now. So do yourself a favour and stop the vagueness, and give me some facts. That's all I ever ask of people making broad statements on forums, just to be specific and deal in facts.

I didn't turn this in to a tuk tuk discussion, I was doing my best to steer clear. I asked questions about worsening corruption and the predicted decline in tourism, but I got very few answers.

[HongKongPhooey]

Far... do you wish to watch the sunset together or why are you talking about the size of the ocean now?

What I said was rather straight forward. You moaned about the roped off area. I asked you how much of the ocean do people need to swim in? Are jet skis upsetting some practising channel swimmers or something?

Ah. That's moaning. Thanks for clarifying it!

You compared it to a prison, so yes I took that as a moan.

[bubblegum]

@HKP

I have been following your posting on a few different threads and it occurs to me that you have a gift for turning everything into a personal vendetta against anybody who does not agree with you. You accuse posters off getting of topic while you do it all the time or do you mean that the posters go off your topic ?

To make your point you often shout (using Capital letters) which I think is rude and against all internet rules.

Personally I'm getting tired of you, it's like talking to a sixteen year old, spoiled brad who is always right.

You are very close to my "ignore" button, not that you personally attack me but for the simple reason that most things you write are not worth reading.

Sorry mods if this post is against the rules but so is shouting.

[NomadJoe]

@HKP

I have been following your posting on a few different treats and it occurs to me that you have a gift for turning everything into a personal vendetta against anybody who does not agree with you. You accuse posters of getting of topic while you do it all the time or do you mean that the posters go off your topic ?

To make your point you often shout (using Capital letters) witch I think is rude and against all internet rules.

Personally I'm getting tired of you, it's like talking to a sixteen year old, spoiled brad who is always right.

You are very close to my "ignore" button, not that you personally attack me but for the simple reason that most things you write are not worth reading.

Sorry mods if this post is against the rules but so is shouting.

I think you will find most everyone agrees with you. His last post was so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations I wouldn't know where to start, so I won't.

He's worked his way into a paradox.

His arguments are these:

"Sustainable tourism is not threatened." When it is explained how it very clearly is, then it's "Ok, well then it hasn't gotten any better so stop commenting about it." What is most impressive is the veracity in which he is somehow able to pursue these two contradictory positions. Ignore button time. (Click your name then "manage ignore prefs" Unfortunately you still see the reply if someone quotes him.

[HongKongPhooey]

I use capitals as a way of emphasis not shouting.

Some people like some of my posts, lots of people don't. That's how forums tend to be.

Ignore away, I'll try not to miss you too much.

[HongKongPhooey]

@HKP

I have been following your posting on a few different treats and it occurs to me that you have a gift for turning everything into a personal vendetta against anybody who does not agree with you. You accuse posters of getting of topic while you do it all the time or do you mean that the posters go off your topic ?

To make your point you often shout (using Capital letters) witch I think is rude and against all internet rules.

Personally I'm getting tired of you, it's like talking to a sixteen year old, spoiled brad who is always right.

You are very close to my "ignore" button, not that you personally attack me but for the simple reason that most things you write are not worth reading.

Sorry mods if this post is against the rules but so is shouting.

I think you will find most everyone agrees with you. His last post was so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations I wouldn't know where to start, so I won't.

He's worked his way into a paradox.

His arguments are these:

"Sustainable tourism is not threatened." When it is explained how it very clearly is, then it's "Ok, well then it hasn't gotten any better so stop commenting about it." What is most impressive is the veracity in which he is somehow able to pursue these two contradictory positions. Ignore button time. (Click your name then "manage ignore prefs" Unfortunately you still see the reply if someone quotes him.

I Am not contradicting mysef in the slightest. I don't agree that tourism is being effected, ergo it is being sustained therefor not unsustainable. For the 10th time, where is the proof. Are tourist numbers down already. You have given me a list of things that you believe may affect tourism, but you have given me no proof that it is happening already, therefore you are doing no more than guessing about the future as you have been for years. My guess is different to yours that's all there is to it.

I'll take your silence as that yet again you are telling me you have made a difference but refuse point blank to say what it is. That's a sure sign of B/S where I come from.

Edited June 18, 2012 by HongKongPhooey

[AnandaSatvha]

Phuket has historically been Thailands WEALTHIEST Island and sadly it will soon be flooded by a tsunami. Good and Evil in the eyes of us civilized chimps= Natural Disaster in they eyes of Nature.

I hope everyone who lives in Phuket has got a 'tea money' ticket off the Island this year BEFORE Mother Nature sends another warning sign. How sad that also Phuket has the highest percentage of natural habitats destroyed of any island off the coast of Thaimand...I really think the Thai government is GREAT and will soon find an AMAZING Plan to save the Island soon!

Hope..

[HongKongPhooey]

^ Which is it. Should we move this year or wait for the governments amazing plan?

[HongKongPhooey]

I think you will find most everyone agrees with you. His last post was so full of inaccuracies and exaggerations I wouldn't know where to start, so I won't.

We have almost the exact same amount of "likes" as each other (at the time of writing I have one more to be precise) and the other fella, forgotten his name already, has a fraction of the amount we do.

Now don't get me wrong, the 'like' button isn't scientific proof of good posting, but it does prove without doubt that not everyone hates all of my posts as you would love to believe.

Are you going to be like all the other members that say they never read my posts but still magically know what I've said and continue to reply.

When it comes to ignore buttons I find less talk more action is the way forward.

I'm done with this thread anyhow, unless you or 'NKM' manage to answer the simple questions asked.

Edited June 18, 2012 by HongKongPhooey

[cowslip]

THailand is a rapidly changing country. As industry expands so do the artisan and middle classes. THis is unavoidable - the result is an increasingly trained and educated populace. This results in more people wanting a say in the way society is run and more people questioning the current state of things. THis is an inevitable part of industrialisation.......as such they also question the widespread corruption they encounter when they try to get a slice of the new cake.

Anyone who thinks that Thailand is in some sort of stasis is unaware of what is happening around them.

[cowslip]

As for swimmers and jetskis - simply do a bit of googling and you'll see how detrimental they are to beach/swimmers environments. No rocket science involved!

[steelepulse]

I love how HKP never address this issue of BTB when it is brought up.Now why would that be?

Back on topic, I see on a daily basis of people being threatened when they want to park in a public spot, yet the illegal black plate taxis rush up and tell them no parking in a hostile and threatening way. If there wasn't corruption, this practice would not be tolerated. And just for you HKP, this is on a daily and ongoing basis, not a one off as you like to seem to make things, since of course all this is never reported.

[Valentine]

Why is it that many posts degenerate into petty bickering & the protagonists are generally the same few people. Some really good posts often get locked because of this.

The corruption here is pervasive, in your face if you care to take off the blinkers but we can only comment as there is really no recourse to any authority unless perhaps the ombudsman. Even if he finds a case that has grounds who will dare take it to prosecution? So we learn to accept it exists, try to avoid it as much as we can & get on with enjoying all the good things which attracted us here.

[HongKongPhooey]

I love how HKP never address this issue of BTB when it is brought up.Now why would that be?

Yeh what a mystery. Might need Sherlock Holmes for that one.

Why is it that many posts degenerate into petty bickering & the protagonists are generally the same few people. Some really good posts often get locked because of this.

The corruption here is pervasive, in your face if you care to take off the blinkers but we can only comment as there is really no recourse to any authority unless perhaps the ombudsman. Even if he finds a case that has grounds who will dare take it to prosecution? So we learn to accept it exists, try to avoid it as much as we can & get on with enjoying all the good things which attracted us here.

Good post and pretty much all I ever say. People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon.

As somebody else said, the way things are done in Thailand which, have then been exaggerated further still in Phuket, is a part of the countries cultural history. It is ingrained in the fabric of society and has been forever. For a few jumped up Farang to think they firstly have the right and secondly the ability to make things change is as deluded and arrogant as can be.

If things change it will be as and when the THAIS want them to, either because the powers that be decide it would benefit them to do so, or because Joe public wake up and want things to be different and make it happen through democratic means. It 100% won't be because some sweaty farangs moan all day on a forum.

If you became an expat in Jamaica would you try and stop the locals smoking weed because you didn't like it? Or would you move to Bogota and try and campaign against the cartels, or move to Japan and try and stop their cruel eating habits where they prepare, cook and eat animals why they are still alive?

It's the exact same difference. You don't move to somebody else's country and try and change hundreds of years of cultural history just because it doesn't sit right with you. If you think you have the right and ability to do so you are a deluded fool.

This is why 'NomadJoe' refuses to tell me what he has achieved in the fight against corruption, even though he constantly claims to have made a difference. The reason is because he's changed NOTHING and is doing nothing but leaving an embarrassing trail of posts through this forum for at least the last 5 years.

The way things are done in Phuket is the way things are done in Phuket, you accept it or you don't, who cares, that's your look out.

[silsburyhill]

Oh, and Iceman, I presume you are responding to me, because you do that all the time. Don't bother though, you're on my ignorelist so I can't see your posts anymore. And I must say, ever since you're on that list I am a much happier poster here .

Please point me to this feature. lol

Click on your name at the top, go to 'manage ignore prefs'.

Oh, HKP, sorry, you did not make it to my ignore list, which consist of only one poster at the moment. I presume he is honored by that

I'm sure whomsoever it is would be very upset at not having the opportunity to engage with your sagacity on this forum. Cue passive/aggressive smiley

[silsburyhill]

Why is it that many posts degenerate into petty bickering & the protagonists are generally the same few people. Some really good posts often get locked because of this.

The corruption here is pervasive, in your face if you care to take off the blinkers but we can only comment as there is really no recourse to any authority unless perhaps the ombudsman. Even if he finds a case that has grounds who will dare take it to prosecution? So we learn to accept it exists, try to avoid it as much as we can & get on with enjoying all the good things which attracted us here.

Or The Office Of The Attorney General in Bangkok. Edited June 19, 2012 by silsburyhill

[cowslip]

THe perfect victim.....

"People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon."

[NamKangMan]

THe perfect victim.....

"People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon."

Seems like in the last 24 hours there have been a few victims of corruption here. Do you ever wonder about the day when it will be your turn?

[LivinginKata]

THe perfect victim.....

"People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon."

Seems like in the last 24 hours there have been a few victims of corruption here. Do you ever wonder about the day when it will be your turn?

I am thinking you are confusing corruption with crime ....

[cowslip]

ALL those living in Thailand are victims of corruption to some extent - wittingly or unwittingly; whether it is dealing with property and prices, services, getting through the bureaucracy, ....even your job can be dependant n corruption...pay outs to local "authorities, or are you employed because tour company gave a backhander to get a contract?

oror simply buying something in a shop, being stopped by the police.. or getting your bins emptied....no-one is immune.

corruption costs the Thai economy billions every year and no-one living/staying here is isolated from the Thai economy.

Edited June 21, 2012 by cowslip

[NomadJoe]

ALL those living in Thailand are victims of corruption to some extent - wittingly or unwittingly; whether it is dealing with property and prices, services, getting through the bureaucracy, ....even your job can be dependant n corruption...pay outs to local "authorities, or are you employed because tour company gave a backhander to get a contract?

oror simply buying something in a shop, being stopped by the police.. or getting your bins emptied....no-one is immune.

Yes of course you are right. It's trickle down economics in reverse. That was my point earlier but the author of this opinion piece and some posters here believe that if they haven't physically handed 300B to a copper or other official then they have not been effected by corruption.

.

Edited June 21, 2012 by NomadJoe

[NamKangMan]

THe perfect victim.....

"People constantly try to convince me that corruption exists when I've never denied it once. All I say is I'm not a victim of it as people keep trying to tell me I am, and that it won't be changing any time soon."

Seems like in the last 24 hours there have been a few victims of corruption here. Do you ever wonder about the day when it will be your turn?

I am thinking you are confusing corruption with crime ....

No, I'm not confusing the two LIK. When you have such a corrupt police force, the rule of law is not upheld. To many, that's a green light to commit crime. If you are unlucky to be caught, you simply buy your way out of the justice system. If you do not get caught, you are free to continue until you do. However, when do you actually face justice here, you don't, if you have the money.

It's starts with paying 200 baht to get out of a helmet fine and goes all the way to paying millions to get out of drug dealing charges. It all leads to lawlessness which breeds a culture of people living with no moral, ethical or sense of resposibility for their actions.

We all agree that Phuket/Thailand offers people from the west more freedom and fun, because of a degree of this lawlessness, but has it been taken too far? If so, without "purging" most of the police force here, how are they going to reverse it, and if it hasn't gone too far by now, what's stopping it from getting to that point of no return one day?

Edited June 21, 2012 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

ALL those living in Thailand are victims of corruption to some extent - wittingly or unwittingly; whether it is dealing with property and prices, services, getting through the bureaucracy, ....even your job can be dependant n corruption...pay outs to local "authorities, or are you employed because tour company gave a backhander to get a contract?

oror simply buying something in a shop, being stopped by the police.. or getting your bins emptied....no-one is immune.

corruption costs the Thai economy billions every year and no-one living/staying here is isolated from the Thai economy.

ALL those living in Thailand are victims of corruption to some extent - wittingly or unwittingly; whether it is dealing with property and prices, services, getting through the bureaucracy, ....even your job can be dependant n corruption...pay outs to local "authorities, or are you employed because tour company gave a backhander to get a contract?

oror simply buying something in a shop, being stopped by the police.. or getting your bins emptied....no-one is immune.

Yes of course you are right. It's trickle down economics in reverse. That was my point earlier but the author of this opinion piece and some posters here believe that if they haven't physically handed 300B to a copper or other official then they have not been effected by corruption.

.

My point exactly.

You don't have to make a corrupt payment or bribe to be a viction of it. I gave the simple example of a bar owner paying "tea money" with a portion of what you pay for a beer is his bar, being the tea money. Very simple example.

In the last 24 hours, we have seen the result of "the bigger picture" when you have lawlessness, due to a corrupt police force and corrupt authorities.

[LivinginKata]

A large number off topic post removed.