Naam Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 four times (during the last 20 years) severe food poisoning eating seafood on flights, food catered in BKK. twice Cathay, once Lufthansa, once Philippine Airlines. 1991 amebia infection in Thailand. vomiting and sh*tting for three days. then nothing for a few months, except once in a while suddenly feeling sick, till a sudden breakdown in a gym. fever 42ºC (107.6F), WBC >50,000 (doctor p*ssed of with nurse "do it again, but this time right!"). quarantined in a Florida hospital. a dozen learned medics examining me. hole as big as a fist in my liver. diagnose liver cancer, suggestion immeditate surgery. me: no thank you. christmas in 6 weeks. perhaps i make it till then. anyway, fix me up provisionally that i can fly and die in my home country. diagnose in Germany. huge liver abscess. due to acquired immunity living years in tropical countries no immediate but delayed and therefore very severe effect. three days hospitalised, then two weeks daily ambulant intravenous antibiotics and eight weeks orally. result: hole in liver disappeared. learned with interest that liver is the only human organ that can regenerate even if two thirds are removed. in the middle of my treatment the Mrs got tested. her body full to the brim with the little buggers, but no side effects. cured by taking four weeks hard antibiotics. me suffering four weeks PMS² because she couldn't drink a single sip of her evening Campari / Orange Juice without feeling terribly sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 if you suggest that 'eating cleanly' will avoid gastric problems in any third world country then you are seriously deluded...as folks have suggested on this thread, many local problems are the result of eating at 'western' restaurants... BINGO Tutsi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Immunity probably comes more by your girlfriend/wife than any other way. When babies are born they get a great gulp of muck which becomes the cocktail from which their immunity develops. I'd suggest living with a Thai would probably introduce what you need over a given period of time, through just being intimate and sharing same facilities. why did i never think of a brilliant argument like this when applying to acquire a mia noi and the Mrs rejected my application? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) if you suggest that 'eating cleanly' will avoid gastric problems in any third world country then you are seriously deluded...as folks have suggested on this thread, many local problems are the result of eating at 'western' restaurants... living in a bubble and being fed intravenousy is not my idea of fun... Give me a break with your insults. I don't live in a bubble and I'm not seriously deluded. I've been living in the Philippines and Thailand for 12 years total. I'm very healthy and I eat cleanly. I'm the best advertisement for my theory that eating cleanly is the way to go. It works for me. It is not difficult to eat cleanly in Thailand and I managed it quite well in the Philippines too and in a rural farming community. Perhaps my system is accustomed to a moderate level of food pathogens after such a long time here because some would inevitably get through my "bubble".... eg In the town supply water. Edited June 28, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) four times (during the last 20 years) severe food poisoning eating seafood on flights, food catered in BKK. twice Cathay, once Lufthansa, once Philippine Airlines. 1991 amebia infection in Thailand. vomiting and sh*tting for three days. then nothing for a few months, except once in a while suddenly feeling sick, till a sudden breakdown in a gym. fever 42ºC (107.6F), WBC >50,000 (doctor p*ssed of with nurse "do it again, but this time right!"). quarantined in a Florida hospital. a dozen learned medics examining me. hole as big as a fist in my liver. diagnose liver cancer, suggestion immeditate surgery. me: no thank you. christmas in 6 weeks. perhaps i make it till then. anyway, fix me up provisionally that i can fly and die in my home country. diagnose in Germany. huge liver abscess. due to acquired immunity living years in tropical countries no immediate but delayed and therefore very severe effect. three days hospitalised, then two weeks daily ambulant intravenous antibiotics and eight weeks orally. result: hole in liver disappeared. learned with interest that liver is the only human organ that can regenerate even if two thirds are removed. in the middle of my treatment the Mrs got tested. her body full to the brim with the little buggers, but no side effects. cured by taking four weeks hard antibiotics. me suffering four weeks PMS² because she couldn't drink a single sip of her evening Campari / Orange Juice without feeling terribly sick. It's an interesting story but what are you suggesting: Eat dirty in Asia or eat clean? Seriously, get some flaxseed oil. Edited June 28, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 if you suggest that 'eating cleanly' will avoid gastric problems in any third world country then you are seriously deluded...as folks have suggested on this thread, many local problems are the result of eating at 'western' restaurants... living in a bubble and being fed intravenousy is not my idea of fun... Give me a break with your insults. I don't live in a bubble and I'm not seriously deluded. I've been living in the Philippines and Thailand for 12 years total. I'm very healthy and I eat cleanly. I'm the best advertisement for my theory that eating cleanly is the way to go. It works for me. It is not difficult to eat cleanly in Thailand and I managed it quite well in the Philippines too and in a rural farming community. Perhaps my system is accustomed to a moderate level of food pathogens after such a long time here because some would inevitably get through my "bubble".... eg In the town supply water. if you suggest that 'eating cleanly' will avoid gastric problems in any third world country then you are seriously deluded...as folks have suggested on this thread, many local problems are the result of eating at 'western' restaurants... living in a bubble and being fed intravenousy is not my idea of fun... Give me a break with your insults. I don't live in a bubble and I'm not seriously deluded. I've been living in the Philippines and Thailand for 12 years total. I'm very healthy and I eat cleanly. I'm the best advertisement for my theory that eating cleanly is the way to go. It works for me. It is not difficult to eat cleanly in Thailand and I managed it quite well in the Philippines too and in a rural farming community. Perhaps my system is accustomed to a moderate level of food pathogens after such a long time here because some would inevitably get through my "bubble".... eg In the town supply water. relax, tropo...no one wants to insult you but you come across a bit strong at times... your posts are informative and I enjoy reading them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Tutsi, I know i had the same problems with Tropo. He is real knowledgeable and got good informative posts. Now that i met him i don't care about his style of writing. But i must admit at first it really got me going. My view on this is that you will pick some resistance up as you go along. I do try to eat clean too, no reason to expose yourself extra i figure you will get enough stuff from day to day living here to boost it. No need to invite it in. I think nobody would purpously go and eat somewhere what its bound to be unclean. I do have had the occasional bout of problems but not that many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) relax, tropo...no one wants to insult you but you come across a bit strong at times... LOL. You're suggesting that I'm seriously deluded and living in a bubble and then you say I'm the one coming across too strong? I was actually asking someone who proposed the "eat-dirty-to-develop-immunity" theory to suggest a way that people can go about strengthening their immune systems without going through painful bouts of food poisoning. The article presented by the New York Times makes a lot of sense, but presents no practical way to proceed. I live a good healthy life living in my bubble in Pattaya. I prepare most of my own food and when I eat out I make sure the restaurants are clean and stick with the ones I know well. I see absolutely no need to eat dirty as I don't have a problem. It's just not difficult eating clean here. Now, what Rob says makes a lot of sense. Without being aware of it, over time we are exposing ourselves in a gentle way to bacteria we may not initially have been familiar with. For example, I wash my dishes and vegetables in town supply water. When I shower my mouth is exposed to it. I rinse my toothbrush in it. What I can't do is sit at a roadside kitchen and eat food when I'm aware they wash dishes in a bucket of dirty water and chop meats all night on the same board in the tropical heat. Apart from the bacteria from the food I'm also exposing myself to pathogens from other customers' mouths. This is a risk I'd prefer not to take. Having said that, I do eat roadside kebabs made by one or two street vendors I trust. Edited June 28, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 thanks fer that robb...I simply think that 'dirty' food cannot be avoided in third world places where hygiene is always questionable and that a westerner is bound to get sick from time to time...even my family (who supposedly have immunities) in Thailand gets sick and the little niece comes to me with a sore belly and wants a cuddle and the food preparation in our house is unquestionable...the kids buy the local khanom from food carts after school and etc... I never got so violently ill as in Mexico City (where the food is the best I've tasted anywhere and cosmopolitan, clean and etc) and in the middle of sex with the ex I hadta break loose and run to the toilet to vomit my guts out...I recovered soon after but, what a drag... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) relax, tropo...no one wants to insult you but you come across a bit strong at times... LOL. You're suggesting that I'm seriously deluded and living in a bubble and then you say I'm the one coming across too strong? I was actually asking someone who proposed the "eat-dirty-to-develop-immunity" theory to suggest a way that people can go about strengthening their immune systems without going through painful bouts of food poisoning. The article presented by the New York Times makes a lot of sense, but presents no practical way to proceed. I live a good healthy life living in my bubble in Pattaya. I prepare most of my own food and when I eat out I make sure the restaurants are clean and stick with the ones I know well. I see absolutely no need to eat dirty as I don't have a problem. It's just not difficult eating clean here. Now, what Rob says makes a lot of sense. Without being aware of it, over time we are exposing ourselves in a gentle way to bacteria we may not initially have been familiar with. For example, I wash my dishes and vegetables in town supply water. When I shower my mouth is exposed to it. I rinse my toothbrush in it. What I can't do is sit at a roadside kitchen and eat food when I'm aware they wash dishes in a bucket of dirty water and chop meats all night on the same board in the tropical heat. Apart from the bacteria from the food I'm also exposing myself to pathogens from other customers' mouths. This is a risk I'd prefer not to take. Having said that, I do eat roadside kebabs made by one or two street vendors I trust. awwright, awwright...I should have phrased the comment rhetorically so as not to offend: 'if one suggests that...then one is seriously deluded...etc' meself, I can't be bothered to inspect the preparation at food stalls; either ye eat it or ye don't...it's all about the same anyway...and I make most of my food as well as I don't like the thai stuff except fer the roast chicken... Edited June 28, 2012 by tutsiwarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I can't be bothered to inspect the preparation at food stalls; either ye eat it or ye don't...it's all about the same anyway...and I make most of my food as well as I don't like the thai stuff except fer the roast chicken... The problem is it's hard to avoid seeing how they wash up. I lose my appetite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I can't be bothered to inspect the preparation at food stalls; either ye eat it or ye don't...it's all about the same anyway...and I make most of my food as well as I don't like the thai stuff except fer the roast chicken... The problem is it's hard to avoid seeing how they wash up. I lose my appetite. yeah...I got a story...there was a guy that sold mie ayam (chicken noodles) from a hand cart every morning outside my office in Jakarta and he washed up in a bucket of dirty water but I never got sick from his stuff and I had it fer brekkie every morning and I acquired confidence...whereas in Mexico City I had splendid street food and apparently 'clean' and well prepared but was never so sick in my life even though the food was excellent... separate realities... (tutsi to a western colleague: 'hey...have some of these noodles, they's really good fer breakfast!' and then was regarded with distain: 'and what's wrong with cornflakes?') Edited June 28, 2012 by tutsiwarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I can't be bothered to inspect the preparation at food stalls; either ye eat it or ye don't...it's all about the same anyway...and I make most of my food as well as I don't like the thai stuff except fer the roast chicken... The problem is it's hard to avoid seeing how they wash up. I lose my appetite. yeah...I got a story...there was a guy that sold mie ayam (chicken noodles) from a hand cart every morning outside my office in Jakarta and he washed up in a bucket of dirty water but I never got sick from his stuff and I had it fer brekkie every morning and I acquired confidence...whereas in Mexico City I had splendid street food and apparently 'clean' and well prepared but was never so sick in my life even though the food was excellent... separate realities... (tutsi to a western colleague: 'hey...have some of these noodles, they's really good fer breakfast!' and then was regarded with distain: 'and what's wrong with cornflakes?') It all comes down to luck - what's in the bucket at the time. I wouldn't have been game though... because I live in a bubble even in SE Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I can't be bothered to inspect the preparation at food stalls; either ye eat it or ye don't...it's all about the same anyway...and I make most of my food as well as I don't like the thai stuff except fer the roast chicken... The problem is it's hard to avoid seeing how they wash up. I lose my appetite. yeah...I got a story...there was a guy that sold mie ayam (chicken noodles) from a hand cart every morning outside my office in Jakarta and he washed up in a bucket of dirty water but I never got sick from his stuff and I had it fer brekkie every morning and I acquired confidence...whereas in Mexico City I had splendid street food and apparently 'clean' and well prepared but was never so sick in my life even though the food was excellent... separate realities... (tutsi to a western colleague: 'hey...have some of these noodles, they's really good fer breakfast!' and then was regarded with distain: 'and what's wrong with cornflakes?') It all comes down to luck - what's in the bucket at the time. I wouldn't have been game though... because I live in a bubble even in SE Asia. hey...the 'bubble arrangement' has always been an inspiration to major artists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCCpyrJiNKs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 It's an interesting story but what are you suggesting: Eat dirty in Asia or eat clean? Seriously, get some flaxseed oil. i seriously suggest that you inject some flaxseed oil in one of your orifices where the moon does not shine, e.g. in your left ear or any other orifice of your choice. reason: flaxseed oil is a well known remedy for hallucinations such as "when I eat out I make sure the restaurants are clean". do you seriously think anybody believes the bullshit claim that a guest of a restaurant is allowed to walk into the kitchen, check the cleanliness of pots, pans, dishes as well as the certicificates "flee of any uncrean matter" for seafood, meat, vegetables and demand a recent clean health bill for all the cooks and helpers which touch/prepare the food? get real man! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) It's an interesting story but what are you suggesting: Eat dirty in Asia or eat clean? Seriously, get some flaxseed oil. i seriously suggest that you inject some flaxseed oil in one of your orifices where the moon does not shine, e.g. in your left ear or any other orifice of your choice. reason: flaxseed oil is a well known remedy for hallucinations such as "when I eat out I make sure the restaurants are clean". do you seriously think anybody believes the bullshit claim that a guest of a restaurant is allowed to walk into the kitchen, check the cleanliness of pots, pans, dishes as well as the certicificates "flee of any uncrean matter" for seafood, meat, vegetables and demand a recent clean health bill for all the cooks and helpers which touch/prepare the food? get real man! It's all about taking precautions. If you consume a good quality flaxseed oil and eat where they don't wash dishes in buckets you'll have a better chance of avoiding liver rot. Now, you didn't answer the question. Do you prescribe to the eating dirty to boost immune system theory or not? Edited June 29, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There is a difference in accepting that you can't avoid getting some bad food in your system once in a while opposed to really seeing bad food to boost your immune system. Im sure nobody would purposely eat something they know is bad just to boost their immune system. At least i cant believe anyone is that crazy, you get enough stuff in your body by just living here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) At least i cant believe anyone is that crazy, you get enough stuff in your body by just living here. That's me. Food poisoning is something I avoid like the plague and I would never be game to try to boost my immune system by purposefully eating dirty. One bout of food poisoning and you could lose the benefits of a month of good training at the gym. I agree with your earlier idea that we gain some immunity by unavoidably being exposed to bacteria in small quantities during our stay in SE Asia. Edited June 29, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutsiwarrior Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There is a difference in accepting that you can't avoid getting some bad food in your system once in a while opposed to really seeing bad food to boost your immune system. Im sure nobody would purposely eat something they know is bad just to boost their immune system. At least i cant believe anyone is that crazy, you get enough stuff in your body by just living here. I simply believe that one cannot avoid occasional problems where the hygiene is not per western standards and that it is a meaningless exercise to worry about local food preparation...just go with the flow or live in a 'bubble'... however, I must admit that my personal immune system is quite hardy...40 years ago with some western pals in Bolivia we got some chicha (the local native homebrew) and the container was washed in a local canal which was basically a sewer and they all got hepatitis and I just cruised...then, many years later I was working in my mom's garden in Cochabamba and drank water from the hosepipe and the family went nuts: 'the local water isn't fit fer animal consumption, you idiot!...' but I never got sick... but I did have some gastric discomfort during the flooding last year when the tap water discharged from the spout was an unpleasant brown color... I'm just getting old...I suppose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There is a difference in accepting that you can't avoid getting some bad food in your system once in a while opposed to really seeing bad food to boost your immune system. Im sure nobody would purposely eat something they know is bad just to boost their immune system. At least i cant believe anyone is that crazy, you get enough stuff in your body by just living here. I simply believe that one cannot avoid occasional problems where the hygiene is not per western standards and that it is a meaningless exercise to worry about local food preparation...just go with the flow or live in a 'bubble'... however, I must admit that my personal immune system is quite hardy...40 years ago with some western pals in Bolivia we got some chicha (the local native homebrew) and the container was washed in a local canal which was basically a sewer and they all got hepatitis and I just cruised...then, many years later I was working in my mom's garden in Cochabamba and drank water from the hosepipe and the family went nuts: 'the local water isn't fit fer animal consumption, you idiot!...' but I never got sick... but I did have some gastric discomfort during the flooding last year when the tap water discharged from the spout was an unpleasant brown color... I'm just getting old...I suppose... Of course you cant avoid problems 100%, however i seldom have any problems. You cant check everything and something can always go wrong. But that is a different story from looking for it and eating bad to boost the system. Anyway i think we mostly see eye to eye just wording it different. I check if something is clean (as far as possible) and don't take unnecessary risks but im sure im exposed enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I simply believe that one cannot avoid occasional problems where the hygiene is not per western standards and that it is a meaningless exercise to worry about local food preparation... there's a flaw in your thinking Uncle Tutsi. "western standards" alone cannot cope with the bugs which exist in tropical countries. that applies especially to third world countries (terribly sorry for stating a fact) where public hygiene such as water supply, garbage collection, garbage disposal, sewage treatment, et al lack minimum standards. add to the afore-mentioned high temperatures which enhance the development and living conditions of various bugs and you land up already with a lotterie ticket when having an iced drink in an otherwise "clean" restaurant. therefore learned eggsburts recommend that you always carry a bottle with flaxseed oil with you which you pour in your beer and over your food to kill whatever bacteria where added when the glass or the dishes were washed with tap water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmaxv Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Is it true that you cannot get health insurance if you are over 65? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) therefore learned eggsburts recommend that you always carry a bottle with flaxseed oil with you which you pour in your beer and over your food to kill whatever bacteria where added when the glass or the dishes were washed with tap water. Don't forget the kefir. That does kill bad bacteria. I'm quite happy to do an experiment - bring some nasties and we'll stick them in a batch of kefir. To make it we stick the kefir grains in a jar of milk and leave it at tropical (30C ++) room temperature for up to 2 days - and then drink it. Amazing isn't it? (hey, the flaxseed oil was a joke in reference to food poisoning ) Edited June 30, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stailmanki Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) After 25 years of regular visits & now living most of the time here in Thailand the only time I ever got sick from food here was from a club sandwich at a Thai resort. Watch out ordering foreign food in a place where it's not usually eaten. What I have also seen more than a few times is Thais getting really sick from eating Khnom Jeen. That's the fish curry soup over rice noodles that you see presenetd with a table of fresh herbs & salad type vegetables. I guess the greens are washed but everybody digs in ( with their hands) pulling off what they want to add to their meal,,,,,,,,,,,,,, & Nobody washes their hands,,,,,,,,, It's a nice dish if you order it in a good restaurant, or make it yourself. Edited June 30, 2012 by stailmanki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 At least i cant believe anyone is that crazy, you get enough stuff in your body by just living here. That's me. Food poisoning is something I avoid like the plague and I would never be game to try to boost my immune system by purposefully eating dirty. One bout of food poisoning and you could lose the benefits of a month of good training at the gym. I agree with your earlier idea that we gain some immunity by unavoidably being exposed to bacteria in small quantities during our stay in SE Asia. You just have to do what you do in farangland, I can't see what point you are making. I guess you are not coming to terms with something. Dirt won't harm most people if any, it's the bugs an d toxins and these occur in clean places too. Obviously if you deliberately seek out a cess pit restaurant, buy fruit from a leper, or don't clean a bathroom, or generally live in squalor then that would be foolhardy. Do you think flaxseed oil and kefir are a bit like 'lucky charms' for you. You might just as well hang a bat's wing above your door or something? Better to take small upsets in your stride and these probably help gain immunity more than anything else you are doing The only practical thing that could be worthwhile is to take your own plastic knife/fork,spoon, I've often considered this when going to some of the food malls. Do you want perfect health, not possible and are you a perfectionist? strikers me you already have good health but are bored out of your wits. Most of your arguments are all one way or another, for or against, and become very dogmatic and mono focused, mostly life is shades of grey. Sometimes absolutism is justified but not oftrn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropo Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) You just have to do what you do in farangland, I can't see what point you are making. I guess you are not coming to terms with something. Dirt won't harm most people if any, it's the bugs an d toxins and these occur in clean places too. Obviously if you deliberately seek out a cess pit restaurant, buy fruit from a leper, or don't clean a bathroom, or generally live in squalor then that would be foolhardy. Do you think flaxseed oil and kefir are a bit like 'lucky charms' for you. You might just as well hang a bat's wing above your door or something? Better to take small upsets in your stride and these probably help gain immunity more than anything else you are doing The only practical thing that could be worthwhile is to take your own plastic knife/fork,spoon, I've often considered this when going to some of the food malls. Do you want perfect health, not possible and are you a perfectionist? strikers me you already have good health but are bored out of your wits. Most of your arguments are all one way or another, for or against, and become very dogmatic and mono focused, mostly life is shades of grey. Sometimes absolutism is justified but not oftrn. What is this? You were so bored out of your wits you had to come back and start having another go? As for kefir - stop being ignorant by rubbishing something you know nothing about. I thought we'd done this topic to death already... but now that you brought it up again. I've been living in SE Asia for 12 years. I've been drinking kefir daily for only 1 year. It's not a dream that my health (and bowel movements) have improved considerably in the last year. Go figure... Flaxseed - the benefits are well known. The post you replied to was no more pointless than any of your pointless drivel. It was just a comment that I'm not about to test out your theory and start eating dirty. You didn't even consider that your dirty eating habits may have caused your IBS. Now stop being pig-headed. Start drinking kefir - it's virtually free. The only reason I can see that you won't try it is because you don't want to come back and admit that I was right all along. ... and no, I'm not "bored out of my wits". Why would not eating dirty food at street carts make you think I'm bored? Edited June 30, 2012 by tropo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheryl Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Mommysboy and Tropo, I don't know how bored you are or are not, but your Moderator is thoroughly bored with the endless debates that are going nowhere and starting to turn into a flamefest. Thread closed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
.thumb.jpg.bc523c85a8d558dbc282dca7a2e602c9.jpg)
Recommended Posts