Contaminated Food May Have Killed Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

[Arkady]

It's not easy to cause death of a grown up person by poisoning. And definitely things like magic mushrooms would have to be consumed in HUGE quantities to have such effect. Therefore I don't believe this happened. From the described circumstances it appears to me some a strong poison was used. Such poison could have been arsenic that is found in pesticides (rat poison) and many other household substances. But the amount consumed would have to be also quite substantial which suggests to me the poisoning could have been intentional. Here is a bit of info on the effects of arsenic:

"Symptoms of arsenic poisoning begin with headaches, confusion and drowsiness. As the poisoning develops, convulsions and changes in fingernail pigmentation may occur. When the poisoning becomes acute, symptoms may include diarrhea, vomiting, blood in the urine, cramping muscles, hair loss, stomach pain, and more convulsions. The organs of the body that are usually affected by arsenic poisoning are the lungs, skin, kidneys, and liver. The final result of arsenic poisoning is coma or death."

The arsenic poisoning can be detected by examining the hair of the victims.

Even Napoleon's remains were supposed to have had traces of the arsenic he presumably took as a tonic detectable 150 years after his death. So it should be detectable for a long time. Most problems with magic mushrooms in Amsterdam where they are freely available are "bad trips" which are not life threatening unless the the trippers accidentally harm themselves. Death is unlikely result from the correct type of hallucinogenic mushrooms but the dealers in Phi Phi might not be botanical experts or might not care what they sell.

[ttelise]

It's not easy to cause death of a grown up person by poisoning. And definitely things like magic mushrooms would have to be consumed in HUGE quantities to have such effect. Therefore I don't believe this happened. From the described circumstances it appears to me some a strong poison was used. Such poison could have been arsenic that is found in pesticides (rat poison) and many other household substances. But the amount consumed would have to be also quite substantial which suggests to me the poisoning could have been intentional. Here is a bit of info on the effects of arsenic:

"Symptoms of arsenic poisoning begin with headaches, confusion and drowsiness. As the poisoning develops, convulsions and changes in fingernail pigmentation may occur. When the poisoning becomes acute, symptoms may include diarrhea, vomiting, blood in the urine, cramping muscles, hair loss, stomach pain, and more convulsions. The organs of the body that are usually affected by arsenic poisoning are the lungs, skin, kidneys, and liver. The final result of arsenic poisoning is coma or death."

The arsenic poisoning can be detected by examining the hair of the victims.

Even Napoleon's remains were supposed to have had traces of the arsenic he presumably took as a tonic detectable 150 years after his death. So it should be detectable for a long time. Most problems with magic mushrooms in Amsterdam where they are freely available are "bad trips" which are not life threatening unless the the trippers accidentally harm themselves. Death is unlikely result from the correct type of hallucinogenic mushrooms but the dealers in Phi Phi might not be botanical experts or might not care what they sell.

Believe it or not, most young women have no interest in trying hallucinogenics. I would say crowd I ran with might have been more prone to, but I ran with the more free spirited crowd.

MOST people really have no interest in being that altered, except maybe those prone to substance abuse or young kids doing it out of peer pressure. These girls seemingly had great self esteem and self worth by all accounts. Just don't see it.

[Renbe]

There are many pubs that serves a popular cocktail which is made from mushrooms. A tourist said that there were special mushrooms on the menu on Pangan island and Samui island and and also on Phi Phi island. Local name is “Khee Kwai ” or magic mushroom, which is popular among tourists. When consumed, this kind of mushroom will cause heavy intoxication.

Let me get this straight... the police know that illicit drugs are being openly sold to tourists at the pubs and yet no crackdown on this practice is being done? I read stories all the time here about a couple of farangs getting busted for a few grams of cannabis and yet these are actual Thai businesses openly selling cocktails with drugs in them. This county never ceases to amaze. They truly are "Amazing Thailand"

Are you sure shrooms are "illicit drugs" ? Can anyone confirm this? To me it seems somewhat difficult to ban a mushrooms that grows everywhere a buffalo poops....

[ttelise]

There are many pubs that serves a popular cocktail which is made from mushrooms. A tourist said that there were special mushrooms on the menu on Pangan island and Samui island and and also on Phi Phi island. Local name is “Khee Kwai ” or magic mushroom, which is popular among tourists. When consumed, this kind of mushroom will cause heavy intoxication.

Let me get this straight... the police know that illicit drugs are being openly sold to tourists at the pubs and yet no crackdown on this practice is being done? I read stories all the time here about a couple of farangs getting busted for a few grams of cannabis and yet these are actual Thai businesses openly selling cocktails with drugs in them. This county never ceases to amaze. They truly are "Amazing Thailand"

Are you sure shrooms are "illicit drugs" ? Can anyone confirm this? To me it seems somewhat difficult to ban a mushrooms that grows everywhere a buffalo poops....

The ones that grows in cow poop are banned here.

[Thaifever]

So tired of these "investigations" by Thai police. I've yet to witness professionalism in any facet of Thai society. Shows such a lack of compassion to be assessing the impact on their precious tourism industry when lives have been lost. Blaming the girls before forensic evidence has been released demonstrates extreme unprofessionalism and ignorance. Do the police get paid directly by the ministry of tourism? Making it sound as if the girls had all these narcotic pills in their rooms when it was actually tylenol. Just sick of the blatant lies and cover ups that go on by Thai "authorities".

[jsflynn603]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

You're full of Erishcia coli, so am I. There are varities as there are of dogs. A toy poodle is quite different than a Great Dane. Well minor differences in E coli, regional differences cause Montezuma's revenge (terrible diarrhea/gastro-intentinal upset) if in Mexico; and probably whatever travelers diarrhea is called in Thailand. But there is a fairly rare sub-type calle O157 H7. The letter/number combination relates to the genetic typing of the body of the bacteria and the tail (flagellum).

O157 H7 can be "carried" by some people with no ill effects and so migrant workers in the US who are carries can, on occasion, by fecal contamination, infect many other people whose body it does affect adversely resulting in hemmoragic diarrhea which can kill the very young and the very old. The reason that O157 H7 causes such problems is that it is a flagellated bacteria. This is why abou 98% of female urinary infections are caused by "ordinary" E coli--because the organism is a great "swimmer," and the femal urethra is only about an inch long. Males rarely get E coli urinary tract infections because, as we all know, the average lenght of the male urethra is (insert whatever amazing length you prefer here). The reason E coli O157 H7 causes troubles via vegetables and fruits when contaminated is that even lettuce is filled with millions of very tiny water filled tubules as is all fruit and vegetables, and the tiniest nick exposes them...and when contaminated with fecal matter some of the E coli does what it does very well...it swims into the tubules--so wash lettuce or melon all you want, but you will not ever wash all the E coli off because some will swim deeply (which may only be 1mm) into the fruit or vegetable and no longer can be washed off--thus you get occasional epidemics.

But O157 H7 typed E coli generally does not generally kill most adults with good immune systems, it just makes them want to die for several days. In no way could these symptoms be caused by any known variety of E coli.

[ttelise]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

You're full of Erishcia coli, so am I. There are varities as there are of dogs. A toy poodle is quite different than a Great Dane. Well minor differences in E coli, regional differences cause Montezuma's revenge (terrible diarrhea/gastro-intentinal upset) if in Mexico; and probably whatever travelers diarrhea is called in Thailand. But there is a fairly rare sub-type calle O157 H7. The letter/number combination relates to the genetic typing of the body of the bacteria and the tail (flagellum).

O157 H7 can be "carried" by some people with no ill effects and so migrant workers in the US who are carries can, on occasion, by fecal contamination, infect many other people whose body it does affect adversely resulting in hemmoragic diarrhea which can kill the very young and the very old. The reason that O157 H7 causes such problems is that it is a flagellated bacteria. This is why abou 98% of female urinary infections are caused by "ordinary" E coli--because the organism is a great "swimmer," and the femal urethra is only about an inch long. Males rarely get E coli urinary tract infections because, as we all know, the average lenght of the male urethra is (insert whatever amazing length you prefer here).

But O157 H7 typed E coli generally does not kill adults with good immune systems, it just makes them want to die for several days. In no way could these symptoms be caused by any known variety of E coli.

Like the male urethra size comment "prefer."

Good explanation. What about H4, I think it is H4 . . . I though one strain was particularly nasty, but it was maybe in Germany or somewhere in Europe where they had some reported cases. Seem to recall it being resistant to all antibiotics.

So ecoli is simply an opportunistic bacteria similar to Clostridium and Staff. Correct?

[nurofiend]

Well, sorry, but I just can't see two well educated girls, one about to start a career in Dentistry and both of whom returned to their room 'early', having participated in drug taking. Judging by their educational backgrounds reported, I can neither see them having been inebriated too!

That would lead to either a case of unfortunate severe poisoning, yet it is latterly reported that the bin was pretty much aimed at well with vomit, and it wasn't a projectile filled room, thus they were able to walk; or that they were forced to remain in the room whilst being ill, and their deaths over-seen to the end, to cover up what went on prior.

Only my opinion, based upon my experiences here, but I am entitled to it.

-mel.

from personal experience, i've witnessed people from all walks of life indulging in various substances... most noticeably in thailand actually.

it's not only uneducated people who experiment with drugs.

i'm just replying to your comment and not for a moment suggesting that this is what happened to these two sisters.

[marstons]

Speechless to see channel 7 take a film crew in to the area with the body bags and the doctor just unzipped to show the camera's. What goes through their minds to do such a thing and what is the perceived benefit.

[Jayman]

There are many pubs that serves a popular cocktail which is made from mushrooms. A tourist said that there were special mushrooms on the menu on Pangan island and Samui island and and also on Phi Phi island. Local name is “Khee Kwai ” or magic mushroom, which is popular among tourists. When consumed, this kind of mushroom will cause heavy intoxication.

Let me get this straight... the police know that illicit drugs are being openly sold to tourists at the pubs and yet no crackdown on this practice is being done? I read stories all the time here about a couple of farangs getting busted for a few grams of cannabis and yet these are actual Thai businesses openly selling cocktails with drugs in them. This county never ceases to amaze. They truly are "Amazing Thailand"

Are you sure shrooms are "illicit drugs" ? Can anyone confirm this? To me it seems somewhat difficult to ban a mushrooms that grows everywhere a buffalo poops....

In fact, not only psychedelic mushrooms are banned here but also opium poppies and cannabis. Also Kratom and a few other plants I'm surely forgetting.

[jsflynn603]

It's not easy to cause death of a grown up person by poisoning.

200 milligrams of arsenic trioxide will kill 98% out of 100 persons poisoned. (LDL 50 (lethal dose for arsenic trioxide that kills 50% of a population is about 100mgs)). Warfarin LDL50 is about 6.6 milligrams/kilogram of body weight so for an average Thai it's about 300mg.

Both are odorless, and tasteless. Arsenic compounds are easily obtained as it is used as an insecticide. Warfarin used to be used in rat poison, though it's not much today as most rat populations have become resistant to it.

The LDL50 of Chlorpyrifos, the bedbug insecticide that undoubtedly kill several in Chiang Mai is about 94mg/kilogram of body weight, but Chlorpyrifos can be absorbed through the skin, and inhaled and builds up over time.

So 1/8th-1/4 of a teaspoon, or a large "pinch" or two between the figers of any of the above, alone, has a greater than 50% likelihood of causing a person's deat.

Seems pretty easy if one wanted to--to poison an adult.

[cdnvic]

Removed one post for copyright reasons, and one poster because he foolishly thought that flaming people in German would hide what he was saying. I've had enough German girlfriends over the years to know what angry German reads like.

[ttelise]

Removed one post for copyright reasons, and one poster because he foolishly thought that flaming people in German would hide what he was saying. I've had enough German girlfriends over the years to know what angry German reads like.

Haha, I got a Russian wife and they sound just as pissed as Germans in native langauge. . . . I am German heritage so not bashing Germans. Just langauge is comically harsh.

[Nisa]

I get all of that . . . In addition, what kind of people venture to phi phi, perhaps those prone to want to party. I don't know. These sound like good kids and I am willing to give them benefit of the doubt.

ALL law enforcement agencies in civlized countries begin a case like this with the assumption of foul play and work backwards to disprove that they were intentionally killed.

This is my gripe and beginning the assumption that deaths were nothing more than a party foul by the authorities is contrary to proper investigatory standards.

Finally, it is still a crime and if they truly believed that, they would have the bar/restaruant owner in for questioning or possible criminal charges so I don't think they really believe that.

And they have looked at this as a possible crime but there is NOTHING as yet indicating it to be a crime. Door locked from the inside, nothing stolen, no violence, am sure they looked at security tapes of goings and comings from the room ... Unless the autopsy shows they were poisoned by something that wouldn't normally be ingested accidently, there isn't much to do. It appears based on statements in the press that they have investigated where they were and with whom prior to their deaths. Not a lot more than can be done at this point and certainly, like anywhere else, police are not telling everything they have done or are doing but like just about anywhere else, when they initially suspect or don't suspect foul play, they let this information out.

Just like anywhere else, it is going to be a wait and see what the results are. Toxicology reports take time so even after the autopsy it will likely be weeks before we have any answer. Be it Rodney King who just died in the US to Michael Jackson, it takes time to determine cause of death when it is not trauma or something an autopsy can confirm like clogged arteries. It would be impossible to treat every death where the cause is unknown initially as a crime when there is no indication of a crime and other more plausible explanations exist.

The likely cause of death is almost surely going to be poisoning be it by food or by ingesting of too much of a drug or fake drug. Anything else is going to be fairly remote given the limited info we have that is surely missing details and could also be providing incorrect details.

Still have The Saffron Glasses then. Only way any truth will come out is with an independent, on Thai autopsy. If you think the truth will come out via Thai authorities on this one then you are in Kwailand.

And you believe this because you are sure they died in some sinister way that needs to be covered up?

[webfact]

DEATHS ON PHI PHI

Canadian sisters to be autopsied in Bangkok

THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- Police will send the bodies of two Canadian sisters who died mysteriously at a hotel on Phi Phi Island to Ramathibodi Hospital in Bangkok for autopsies.

Audrey and Noemi Belanger were found dead at the Palm Residence Hotel last Friday. Both were in their 20s.

The autopsies will be conducted at Ramathibodi Hospital as per a request by the Canadian Embassy.

Institute of Forensic Medicine commander Maj-General Somboon Tantrakul said yesterday the bodies were initially sent to his institute by the Muang Krabi Police Station but would be forwarded to the hospital.

"The embassy has been in contact with Ramathibodi Hospital before. So, we will provide ambulances and send the bodies to the hospital," Somboon said.

Meanwhile, the Epidemiology Bureau dispatched a team to check shops and communities on Phi Phi Island to gather environmental evidence.

"At this point, we cannot determine the cause of their deaths yet. We have to further examine the samples of environmental data," Dr Jakrat Phittayawong-anon said. He reckoned it was possible the young women may have inadvertently eaten food tainted with pesticide.

So far, he said it was not clear which shops or restaurants they went to during their stay on the island.

He said the Canadians had visited Chiang Mai and Phuket before arriving on Phi Phi Island on June 12.

-- The Nation 2012-06-20

[dingdang]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

You're full of Erishcia coli, so am I. There are varities as there are of dogs. A toy poodle is quite different than a Great Dane. Well minor differences in E coli, regional differences cause Montezuma's revenge (terrible diarrhea/gastro-intentinal upset) if in Mexico; and probably whatever travelers diarrhea is called in Thailand. But there is a fairly rare sub-type calle O157 H7. The letter/number combination relates to the genetic typing of the body of the bacteria and the tail (flagellum).

O157 H7 can be "carried" by some people with no ill effects and so migrant workers in the US who are carries can, on occasion, by fecal contamination, infect many other people whose body it does affect adversely resulting in hemmoragic diarrhea which can kill the very young and the very old. The reason that O157 H7 causes such problems is that it is a flagellated bacteria. This is why abou 98% of female urinary infections are caused by "ordinary" E coli--because the organism is a great "swimmer," and the femal urethra is only about an inch long. Males rarely get E coli urinary tract infections because, as we all know, the average lenght of the male urethra is (insert whatever amazing length you prefer here).

But O157 H7 typed E coli generally does not kill adults with good immune systems, it just makes them want to die for several days. In no way could these symptoms be caused by any known variety of E coli.

Like the male urethra size comment "prefer."

Good explanation. What about H4, I think it is H4 . . . I though one strain was particularly nasty, but it was maybe in Germany or somewhere in Europe where they had some reported cases. Seem to recall it being resistant to all antibiotics.

So ecoli is simply an opportunistic bacteria similar to Clostridium and Staff. Correct?

i object... to all..

in europe there were several cases of death - in the hospitals and people went there in early stages... and NO, it doesnt have to do with a healthy immune systeme... its by now totally unknown, why some people cant be helped, and others feel only soft symptoms...

from 60 infectious people in the hospital showed 40 "complications", i think 10 to 20 died... (last year, germany)

if there is an ecoli bacteria on phi phi, then the number of infections must be large - and so is the number of people in their hospital obviously (see source below)... the bacteria can accumulate in the piping system or elsewhere for some environmental reasons? when do they put out dung?

that the sisters had such a super-severe outcome, with blue fingernails, could be related to the medication they took?... antibiotics - this is known by now, a lot of other things are not known yet - does WORSEN the process...

yesterday, in another source, a british girl states something like this, referring to phi phi

''I was really ill. Food poisoning has been spoken about but it was dehydration as well. It could have been bacteria or a virus or something. The hospital is full of people with the same thing - it's shocking. ..."

[chooka]

Speechless to see channel 7 take a film crew in to the area with the body bags and the doctor just unzipped to show the camera's. What goes through their minds to do such a thing and what is the perceived benefit.

<deleted>, is this true seriously, how totally disrepectful I find that disgusting. That would totally tear my heart out and be worse than losing someone if this was done to one of my family. Thais may not like tourists but please show a little dignity and respect.

[ttelise]

Sounds like embassy pressure to investigate is working, although this should have been done days ago.

Dude, you cannot object. This is a forum not a court room

[Thai at Heart]

These things take time. You can't figure this out over night. Dr. Pornthep is a very good doc and will get to the bottom of it, hopefully.

But out of respect to the families, please show some respect on this thread.

They should insist on a foreign autopsy. Pornthip will provide whatever answer protects Thai tourism the best.

Incorrect! she has stood up to many a Thai establishment in her time and is highly respected!

This is in reply to " They should insist on a foreign autopsy. Pornthip will provide whatever answer protects Thai tourism the best."

Ever heard of a rather dodgy bomb detector that she thoroughly tested and deemed quite a useful little gadget.

[animatic]

Speechless to see channel 7 take a film crew in to the area with the body bags and the doctor just unzipped to show the camera's. What goes through their minds to do such a thing and what is the perceived benefit.

<deleted>, is this true seriously, how totally disrepectful I find that disgusting. That would totally tear my heart out and be worse than losing someone if this was done to one of my family. Thais may not like tourists but please show a little dignity and respect.

Not unusual here.

A friends lady committed suicide a few years back, a really 3 fold concerted effort to not fail.

They didn't just show him her face for identification, but unzipped her nude body in the bag and rolled her over on the ground, to show him every bit of damage ... while someone he never identified took pictures of her and him as it was being done. the man was totally devastated for months. Unspeakable lack of feeling involved.

[Yunla]

Unspeakable lack of feeling involved.

I'm so disgusted with the people in this original news story talking about two deceased ladies with comments like maybe they were experimenting with magic mushrooms or maybe they mixed prescription pills with alcohol. That is an accusation against the ladies, saying they were drug-users and didn't follow prescription drug guidelines too. That is nothing except a shameful insult against the recently deceased. How dare they say those things when there is no cause of death established.

[cloudhopper]

Dude, you cannot object. This is a forum not a court room

[sunshine51]

These things take time. You can't figure this out over night. Dr. Pornthep is a very good doc and will get to the bottom of it, hopefully.

But out of respect to the families, please show some respect on this thread.

Yes...let's stop the speculation out of respect for the girls families. After reading every post about these two

girls since the story broke I have come to the conclusion that many of us are claiming to be excellent toxicologists and forensic experts with years of experience under our belts. As for me I have eaten a lotta

magic mushrooms and am still very much alive (or is this all a bad dream?), by mistake I ate Death Cap mushrooms once and survived, and have been served radiator coolant as alcohol and survived that too.

These days I stick to cans of beers unopened except by myself, buy my own spirits (the liquid kind) at real liquor stores and eat my food at restaurants of all sorts where there are also many others eating at the same time. This is what's known as common sense...whether when traveling or in the comforts of ones home town. Even if Doc Pornthip messed up a case I'd say she's the best there is in LOS so we should give

her a chance before making any derogatory comments about her forensic capabilities as I believe she's

better her job of forensic work than we are. As for the BIB's...well....Would you like to have their job?

[anthrosciguy]

I'd bet on misapplied insecticides (too strong, too much, left too long, etc.), both here, and the similar deaths elsewhere. But it seems to me the problem then is the half-life of such things, and the delays in investigations. Even if a cleanup wasn't done (and just as with the Downtown Inn there was, right?) it might not be possible to detect traces of the insecticide after a few days. Look at how hard it was to find the cause in the famous Legionaires case in the USA, and there they had a large team and fairly fast response, and a cause that persisted longer. Thailand desperately needs to realise the need for a rapid response to things like this to calm tourist fears instead of going for what only seems easier (the usual hemming and hawwing and covering up).

[craigt3365]

Just to clear things up, Dr. Pornthep is NOT Dr. Porntip. Here's a bit of info about Dr. Pornthep, seems well qualified:

You may have noted that Dr Porntep Siriwanarangsan, member of 6th FETP class,

has been agreed by the cabinet since late last month to take the position of

Deputy Permanent Secretary of Public Health starting 1 Oct 2010. He is now

acting in that position while awaiting the process for royal appointment to be

completed some times in the near future.

He is currently, according to Dr Kumnuan FETP4, the highest ranking FETP alumni

on administration side of the Ministry of Public Health, Thailand.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FETP/message/2355

The Field Epidemiology Training Program (FETP) and the Field Epidemiology and Laboratory Training Program (FELTP), which offers an added laboratory component, are applied epidemiology programs offered by CDC to help foreign countries develop, set up, and implement dynamic public health strategies to improve and strengthen their public health system and infrastructure.

The FETP is a 2-year, full-time training and service program, which involves classroom instruction and field assignments.

FETP trainees take courses in epidemiology, communications, economics, and management. They also learn about quantitative- and behavior-based strategies. In addition, FETP trainees work in the field, where they conduct epidemiologic investigations and field surveys; evaluate surveillance systems, perform disease control and prevention measures; report their findings to decision- and policy-makers; and train other health workers.

http://www.cdc.gov/globalhealth/FETP/

[samsiam]

Anyone have the inclination to call the hotel and ask to be connected to each room....and tell the occupants to clear out...just in case.

[maidu]

Artilce said they arrested some boy walking them home that evening. I am sure he is a farang and may be a great patsy if somehow poison shows up. At least LOS could say farang poisoned girls, but we took care of him so all safe now.

That dude could be in a touchy situation. If used a fall guy, he doesn't stand a chance. Goodbye rest of life.

If that's so, police should follow up diligently. Best would be farang investigators with interpreter.

Here's my spin (since the police and everyone else are proposing scenarios): Girls were slipped a 'date rape' drug, maybe by one or more Thais or maybe by farang. Dose was too strong. While walking the girls back to their room, perpetrators realize the girls are getting v. sick, so they abandon them. The farang who was allegedly arrested (seen walking with them) could plausibly have been aiding two sick girls trying to walk to their hotel room.

Note: Ether is sometimes used as a date-rape drug, and overdoses can cause death by toxicity. What are overdose symptoms of other date-rape drugs? I don't know.

Deepfelt regards for the grocer father and the rest of their family and friends back home. Very sad.

[dingdang]

if there is a known bacteria problem on phi phi, and they charge people 400 gbp for the treatment...

[CarolineInKrabi]

A couple of customers at my resort were given mushrooms by a tour guide. He said they were magic mushrooms. I told them not to eat them because they could be dangerous. I wonder why this man gave them these mushrooms? Was he trying to get a tip, did he want a shag? The whole thing seemed very fishy to me.

[jalansanitwong]

When you ask locals about this type of incident they just shrug their shoulders and say ..."probably katoey big problem in Thailand".

Where i live in BKK there used to be loads of katoeys hanging around the drug stores known to sell powerful medication 'under the table'.

The cops moved them on but they simply relocate somewhere else.

Katoeys are a huge problem in Thailand's tourist towns and the government/police will eventually get rid of them. No choice.