Court Postpones Verdict On Teen Driver: Don Muang Tollway Accident

[MB1]

MB1 you are saying it is not the parents fault for taking any opportunity to keep there daughter out of jail. Well that is not much of a point. If the judge is going to let them get away with it, the fault is with the judge and the system.

But are you also saying that it is acceptable that the criminal, if rich enough, should be in a position to choose punishment rather then have an unbiased punishment that has no regard for rich and poor.

If you were a judge and were unrelated to the victims or the defendant, would you allow a rich man to pay a pittance and walk away while the victims had suffered tremendous loss?

The judge does what he is told, those up above pull the strings, the master puppeteers.

That's the way it is in Thailand.

I'm not saying it's acceptable and have not done so, what I have said is, I would if afforded the opportunity to use the system of Thailand I would...

I'm not a judge nor am juror but I accept that that is how it is. My bad or what.

[MB1]

People will eventually get wise and justice will be served by those who witness such crimes at the scene of the crime. Nobody is just going to stand around and wait for the courts to rule.

Get wise eh?....Let me know when it happens eh.....Rome wasn't built in a day and when Thailand has laws to equal all I'll be long dead and gone.....

[Moruya]

A justice system has to stand or fall the the application of the laws.

Thailand? Well, it just falls...........................

[GentlemanJim]

Wow that's the way to go, have your kids do 5 to 10 in a Thai jail because that's the right thing to do for a for a socially morally responsible parent to do, glad I'd never be your child.

Well a socially morally responsible parent would never have given a underage, non-licenced, un-insured, non-trained-driver the keys to a car would they?

MB1

So how far would you go in your bid to keep your child out of jail? Would you be happy to do a Chalerm and have killed any witnesses that may prove problematic? And you are glad you would never be my child? Seems you would like to be able to kill and murder and have your old man give you a cuddle and say 'no worries son, here have this new gun for your birthday'.

[kblaze]

MB1;

You seem to be quite the attention-seeker. The type who revels in taking a contrarian viewpoint only for the chance to be in the spotlight. Why do you get the spotlight in this case? Because you are basically alone in your view (i have read all 9 pages and i think 1 or 2 other posts may have partially sympathized with you). You are the type who love to get posts, such as mine, that are directed personally at you, because it means someone actually notices you.

If you were not simply seeking the limelight, you would have made your point, responded to some replies, then left. Perhaps you would come back and offer a couple more points.

This has not been the case.

Instead, you have made the same point over and over. Over and over. Do you realize that you constitute 50% of the posts in this thread? For someone, such as myself, who wants a broad spectrum of points of view, I actually appreciate some opposition or so-called "playing devil's advocate". But what you have done here amounts to "hi-jacking a thread".

Don't try to say that all of your posts have been responses to questions from posters. No, upon looking back one can see you taking the opportunity to restate (again) your view in response to posters who are not even talking to you. You are injecting yourself into posts that are not directed at you.

If you really want to make people think differently about this tragedy, then annoying everyone with 500 posts is not the way to go about it. Say less and people will listen more when you do.

You can reply if you want, but I will be leaving this thread now, frustrated at the direction it went, and unlike you, I will keep my word and not come back.

[carra]

I think we would all try and help our children and use the system in our own country, (well to minimize the sentence as much as possible) but also punish the child ourselves.

In my opinion the issue is that they even have such a system here, that is based on wealth and how much you can compensate a victim, it is skewed and does not allow for fairness. No doubt the police will be pushing the victims as it is possible that they are getting a slice also.

This is the big issue, you can legally buy your way out of a custodial sentence, this should not be the decision of the police or the victims, it is a decision that should be made by a judge in a court and open to appeal by either party.

[MB1]

MB1;

You seem to be quite the attention-seeker. The type who revels in taking a contrarian viewpoint only for the chance to be in the spotlight. Why do you get the spotlight in this case? Because you are basically alone in your view (i have read all 9 pages and i think 1 or 2 other posts may have partially sympathized with you). You are the type who love to get posts, such as mine, that are directed personally at you, because it means someone actually notices you.

If you were not simply seeking the limelight, you would have made your point, responded to some replies, then left. Perhaps you would come back and offer a couple more points.

This has not been the case.

Instead, you have made the same point over and over. Over and over. Do you realize that you constitute 50% of the posts in this thread? For someone, such as myself, who wants a broad spectrum of points of view, I actually appreciate some opposition or so-called "playing devil's advocate". But what you have done here amounts to "hi-jacking a thread".

Don't try to say that all of your posts have been responses to questions from posters. No, upon looking back one can see you taking the opportunity to restate (again) your view in response to posters who are not even talking to you. You are injecting yourself into posts that are not directed at you.

If you really want to make people think differently about this tragedy, then annoying everyone with 500 posts is not the way to go about it. Say less and people will listen more when you do.

You can reply if you want, but I will be leaving this thread now, frustrated at the direction it went, and unlike you, I will keep my word and not come back.

I will reply so thanks for your sermon, you sound like my psychiatrist whom I have an appointment with shortly.

By the way you do exaggerate, as for annoying everyone with 500 posts I'm not even close yet.Only 217 posts at time of my posting this.

Edited June 25, 2012 by MB1

[MB1]

Wow that's the way to go, have your kids do 5 to 10 in a Thai jail because that's the right thing to do for a for a socially morally responsible parent to do, glad I'd never be your child.

Well a socially morally responsible parent would never have given a underage, non-licenced, un-insured, non-trained-driver the keys to a car would they?

MB1

So how far would you go in your bid to keep your child out of jail? Would you be happy to do a Chalerm and have killed any witnesses that may prove problematic? And you are glad you would never be my child? Seems you would like to be able to kill and murder and have your old man give you a cuddle and say 'no worries son, here have this new gun for your birthday'.

Did I say I would kill any witnesses, have I talked about guns.

[GentlemanJim]

Wow that's the way to go, have your kids do 5 to 10 in a Thai jail because that's the right thing to do for a for a socially morally responsible parent to do, glad I'd never be your child.

Well a socially morally responsible parent would never have given a underage, non-licenced, un-insured, non-trained-driver the keys to a car would they?

MB1

So how far would you go in your bid to keep your child out of jail? Would you be happy to do a Chalerm and have killed any witnesses that may prove problematic? And you are glad you would never be my child? Seems you would like to be able to kill and murder and have your old man give you a cuddle and say 'no worries son, here have this new gun for your birthday'.

Did I say I would kill any witnesses, have I talked about guns.

But you can in Thailand. The rich and elite do it to save their children from being sent to prison. Would you do that?

[MB1]

@Jim.

But you can in Thailand. The rich and elite do it to save their children from being sent to prison. Would you do that?

You know what Jim, when I first started coming to Thailand I was as equally disgusted as some people by the level of corruption right from the top to the bottom.

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway and every day you can see some form of corruption going on if you look around.

Over time my views have changed, a bit like if you can't beat em join em and if I can use the corrupt system to my advantage I will.

Do you live in Thailand Jim? . If you do then you know corruption is rife but I laugh at people who pay tea money for minor offences and think that's okay to do so but when people pay big money to make big problem go away then same people cry foul.

Double standards hey, hypocrisy hey.

You know my stance by now Jim so lets stop going round and round the garden, you have your view I have mine and we are getting no where.

I've said before it's easy saying on a forum that people would let their kids go to jail but I doubt many would if having an option to stop them going to jail, there just kidding themselves and the forum trying to act all PC.

Catch 22 hey Jim.

[GentlemanJim]

@Jim.

But you can in Thailand. The rich and elite do it to save their children from being sent to prison. Would you do that?

You know what Jim, when I first started coming to Thailand I was as equally disgusted as some people by the level of corruption right from the top to the bottom.

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway and every day you can see some form of corruption going on if you look around.

Over time my views have changed, a bit like if you can't beat em join em and if I can use the corrupt system to my advantage I will.

Do you live in Thailand Jim? . If you do then you know corruption is rife but I laugh at people who pay tea money for minor offences and think that's okay to do so but when people pay big money to make big problem go away then same people cry foul.

Double standards hey, hypocrisy hey.

You know my stance by now Jim so lets stop going round and round the garden, you have your view I have mine and we are getting no where.

I've said before it's easy saying on a forum that people would let their kids go to jail but I doubt many would if having an option to stop them going to jail, there just kidding themselves and the forum trying to act all PC.

Catch 22 hey Jim.

So you would....wow!

[MB1]

@Jim.

But you can in Thailand. The rich and elite do it to save their children from being sent to prison. Would you do that?

You know what Jim, when I first started coming to Thailand I was as equally disgusted as some people by the level of corruption right from the top to the bottom.

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway and every day you can see some form of corruption going on if you look around.

Over time my views have changed, a bit like if you can't beat em join em and if I can use the corrupt system to my advantage I will.

Do you live in Thailand Jim? . If you do then you know corruption is rife but I laugh at people who pay tea money for minor offences and think that's okay to do so but when people pay big money to make big problem go away then same people cry foul.

Double standards hey, hypocrisy hey.

You know my stance by now Jim so lets stop going round and round the garden, you have your view I have mine and we are getting no where.

I've said before it's easy saying on a forum that people would let their kids go to jail but I doubt many would if having an option to stop them going to jail, there just kidding themselves and the forum trying to act all PC.

Catch 22 hey Jim.

So you would....wow!

You live here Jim? . Would you pay tea money ? have you paid tea money? . You know your in a corrupt country do you not.

It matter not to me if you pay 1 baht or 100 or 1000 or 1 million or 100 mill, it's all corruption regardless of the amount paid.

I like what a poster nomadjoe posted on another thread and I agree with it, would you agree with it? .

He said....

"we live in this country so to a degree we already accept being part of the corrupt system".

Edited June 25, 2012 by MB1

[Thaddeus]

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway

And the reason for that would be?

[Skywalker69]

Mods, help. iPhone glitch

It has happend to me too.

[MB1]

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway

And the reason for that would be?

Talking about Thailand and corruption Thaddeus, if I last another 30 years I think Thailand will still be corrupt.

[Thaddeus]

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway

And the reason for that would be?

Talking about Thailand and corruption Thaddeus, if I last another 30 years I think Thailand will still be corrupt.

And the question still stands, why?

[MB1]

As the years have gone by I 've realised nothing is going to change, not in my life time anyway

And the reason for that would be?

Talking about Thailand and corruption Thaddeus, if I last another 30 years I think Thailand will still be corrupt.

And the question still stands, why?

Corruption is a part of Thai society, a part of Thai life in general and it's accepted at all levels of society.

What do you think, do you think corruption can be stopped and if so how?, you'll probably say if people like me stopped condoning it.

I'm on about Thais not me.

[Thaddeus]

Corruption is a part of Thai society, a part of Thai life in general and it's accepted at all levels of society.

What do you think, do you think corruption can be stopped and if so how?, you'll probably say if people like me stopped condoning it.

I'm on about Thais not me.

It isn't about you, never has been.

[PingManDan]

Another instance of money will buy you anything in Thailand, even your freedom.

[OzMick]

I wonder what you do if your daughter, her sins absolved at little personal cost, decides to continue driving recklessly and/or illegally? How many people should she be allowed to maim or kill because mummy is loaded, or dad has friends in high places?

[GentlemanJim]

I wonder what you do if your daughter, her sins absolved at little personal cost, decides to continue driving recklessly and/or illegally? How many people should she be allowed to maim or kill because mummy is loaded, or dad has friends in high places?

Mick

You are banging your head against a wall here. You are dealing with someone that considers that if you pay 100 baht tea money for something then you are inherently corrupt and that the next step...paying money to get your child off murderous offences or killing witnesses to keep your child out of jail is a goer in this country. He has a mental stumbling block at the message we are ALL trying to portray and that is that a judicial system has no room for allowing parents of perpertraitors of crime to settle a criminal conviction with a payment rather than the lawful custodial sentence the crime attracts. 230 posts in and he still cannot understand what we say and he still shows zero consideration for the lawful rights of the families of those that were killed.

[metisdead]

You can mention that private messages have been exchanged no problems, posting them here on the forum is against the rules.

I hope now the two of you will kindly back away from this topic as your points have been made repeatedly, and possibly making other members shy away from this topic.

Any further exchanges here will be removed without notice.

Edit to add: If any of the private messages have been abusive/inflammatory, use the report button to report the private message(s).

Edited June 26, 2012 by metisdead
: Additional comment added.

[naboo]

[Lakegeneve]

I wonder what you do if your daughter, her sins absolved at little personal cost, decides to continue driving recklessly and/or illegally? How many people should she be allowed to maim or kill because mummy is loaded, or dad has friends in high places?

Obviously, the answer is none.

In an ideal world the Rule of Law (ROL) should apply objectively, dispassionately and equally to all. Indeed, all countries that are a signatory to the UN Human Rights Charter and ICCPR (google it) commit to ensuring just that. Many countries Constitutions also reflect such a principle. However, we all know that in rwality this is not how the administration of justice works. Whatever country, whatever context, ROL applies to the rich and powerful in a different manner. We can all cite numerous examples in our own countries, most of which would have a strong ROL tradition and framework. The deeper your pockets, the more competent legal representation one can get and the more legal avenues one can explore to avoid consequcnes.

In any country where ROL is inherently weak, where there are few institutional checks and many compromised independent statutory bodies, we all know that justice is a glib concept. As we know in Thailand appearances are more important. There is also an inherent and systematic fault in an administration of justice framework which does not have an underlying principle of prosecuting in the public interest but which priorities settlement between the parties as a primary objective. There is some merit in this for alternative dispute resolution in minor cases where a strong ROL exists but obvious and patent failings in a system such as this one as highlighted by cases such as these.

However, don't just assume that the driver's family will be able to pay her way out of this infamous case given that most of the victims were connected to universities, mainly Thammasat. There are also some very angry people out there in thai net world and such stories as the parent of one of the victims dying from "a broken heart" continue to add to the public perceptions (http://www.thairath.co.th/content/region/270827). This will drag on for a while but hopefully some semblance of justice will prevail and there may be some accountability by the driver and her parents.

As for the general issue of what most would do if it was their child, assuming that they were irresponsible in the first place by allowing her to drive. I do find it hard not to entertain the view that the overwhelming majority of parents would do almost anything to avoid their child being incarcerated for a lengthy period of time.

If the parents had the money they'd pay, if they could get their child out of the jurisdiction most would. Especially, in the context of a non-thai child driving a vehicle which resulted in the deaths of 9 thais! Would you really leave your loved one at the mercy of the thai criminal justice system and media given that underlying dynamic??? That doesn't condone such actions.

It is the systematic reality that people cry for justice for others BUT when they are accused they will always utilise every legal and non legal avenue to minimise any potential consequences. That is their right.

[GentlemanJim]

I wonder what you do if your daughter, her sins absolved at little personal cost, decides to continue driving recklessly and/or illegally? How many people should she be allowed to maim or kill because mummy is loaded, or dad has friends in high places?

Obviously, the answer is none.

In an ideal world the Rule of Law (ROL) should apply objectively, dispassionately and equally to all. Indeed, all countries that are a signatory to the UN Human Rights Charter and ICCPR (google it) commit to ensuring just that. Many countries Constitutions also reflect such a principle. However, we all know that in rwality this is not how the administration of justice works. Whatever country, whatever context, ROL applies to the rich and powerful in a different manner. We can all cite numerous examples in our own countries, most of which would have a strong ROL tradition and framework. The deeper your pockets, the more competent legal representation one can get and the more legal avenues one can explore to avoid consequcnes.

In any country where ROL is inherently weak, where there are few institutional checks and many compromised independent statutory bodies, we all know that justice is a glib concept. As we know in Thailand appearances are more important. There is also an inherent and systematic fault in an administration of justice framework which does not have an underlying principle of prosecuting in the public interest but which priorities settlement between the parties as a primary objective. There is some merit in this for alternative dispute resolution in minor cases where a strong ROL exists but obvious and patent failings in a system such as this one as highlighted by cases such as these.

However, don't just assume that the driver's family will be able to pay her way out of this infamous case given that most of the victims were connected to universities, mainly Thammasat. There are also some very angry people out there in thai net world and such stories as the parent of one of the victims dying from "a broken heart" continue to add to the public perceptions (http://www.thairath....t/region/270827). This will drag on for a while but hopefully some semblance of justice will prevail and there may be some accountability by the driver and her parents.

As for the general issue of what most would do if it was their child, assuming that they were irresponsible in the first place by allowing her to drive. I do find it hard not to entertain the view that the overwhelming majority of parents would do almost anything to avoid their child being incarcerated for a lengthy period of time.

If the parents had the money they'd pay, if they could get their child out of the jurisdiction most would. Especially, in the context of a non-thai child driving a vehicle which resulted in the deaths of 9 thais! Would you really leave your loved one at the mercy of the thai criminal justice system and media given that underlying dynamic??? That doesn't condone such actions.

It is the systematic reality that people cry for justice for others BUT when they are accused they will always utilise every legal and non legal avenue to minimise any potential consequences. That is their right.

A well written and enjoyable post.

No, as most people have said on here, we would not want our children to spend years in jail, we would do anything to protect them. But where do you draw the line? Do you make minimum financial payments, or maximum? One of the people killed on the minibus was a Doctor. It is likely that his mother could reasonably have expected her son to bring in 4 million baht a year for the next 30 years, plus damages for loss of grandchildren etc etc etc. In the US the payout would be enormous, However in Thailand the woman will be offered very little. There goes her son and her old age insurance policy, which she paid into for 20 years sending the child to school/Uni. Chalerm had several key witnesses to the murder his son committed just eradicated, is that ok and acceptable? If your child kills 5 people and there is only one eye witness that can put them in jail for 30 years, is it ok to have the eye witness killed? that is what some on this forum would suggest with their responses. The whole crux of the argument is that the ROL should apply and that criminal judgements in court MUST receive the mandatory sentencing. What if you are a parent who cannot afford? What society are you not only building but maintaining if the rich can kill and go free and the poor must spend life in prison? Thanks for the post.