Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet Off Coast

[Scott]

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know if civilian aircraft still overfly Syria or are they going around the country?

[chuckd]

Turkish jet may have strayed into Syrian airspace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18562210

The 'coalition of the willing' are never going to be as willing to go into Syria, because Assad is a true patriot who believes fervently that even his most serious crimes are acts of devotion and patriotism. He also has a recent report 55% of the population want him to stay in power, while another 30% approve of his hardline actions against the 'criminals'.

If you provide statistics as facts, you should provide a link to verify what you are claiming.

[folium]

I'll help you out here.

http://www.al-bab.com/blog/2012/blog1201.htm

Seems that the 55% was based on a hugely representative 97 Internet users (Internet penetration is 18% in Syria and it does help to be pro regime to get connected), so it is basically irrelevant and was done in Jan 2012.

Whoops, "source policing" again, but it does show up sloppy journalism and poisonous agendas very quickly.

[davehowden]

More to this than meets the eye?

The US did not know about the locations of the "new" Russian anti-aircraft missiles, and as NATO partner did not tell Turkey?

As somebody else said, is this an attempt by the US to precipitate a "Sarajevo"?

Edited June 24, 2012 by davehowden

[kerryk]

More to this than meets the eye?

The US did not know about the locations of the "new" Russian anti-aircraft missiles, and as NATO partner did not tell Turkey?

As somebody else said, is this an attempt by the US to precipitate a "Sarajevo"?

Didn't someone muse 30 posts ago when this would happen?

[kerryk]

Turkish jet may have strayed into Syrian airspace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18562210

The 'coalition of the willing' are never going to be as willing to go into Syria, because Assad is a true patriot who believes fervently that even his most serious crimes are acts of devotion and patriotism. He also has a recent report 55% of the population want him to stay in power, while another 30% approve of his hardline actions against the 'criminals'.

If you provide statistics as facts, you should provide a link to verify what you are claiming.

You mean she was serious? I thought she was making a joke.

[phl]

IT would seem Turkey is unsure on what to do. Other's are staying out of it for whatever reasons, so Turkey is left alone to make the decision and it seems they are either to scared of the consequences or ................i do not know

ANKARA - Turkish President Abdullah Gul said on Saturday it was not possible to ignore the fact that Syria had shot down a Turkish fighter jet and said everything that needed to be done following the incident would be done,

http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=274903

What can Turkey do ? They are in the wrong by flying into Syrian air space. Especially at a time when they are experiencing conflict. What did the Turks think would happen ? The Syrain government would turn on the runway lights in Damascus and give the Turks a State welcome ?

considering that Turkey and Syria are not at war, perhaps a friendly warning would have been appropriate rather than shooting down the plane

You are right. No they are not at war. But try and look at it from Syria's perspective. They ARE in the middle of a war from within. Faced with numerous threats of military intervention from the international community,which could come from anyone at anytime without warning. That coupled with the fact they didn't know it was a Turkish aircraft, I dare say they had no choice but to treat it as a hostile aircraft [ and rightly so IMO ] and therefore had to shoot it down. These things happen fast and failure to act could end with 500lb 'ers landing in the middle of Damascus.

And the Turks should have and probably new darn well before they launched that they would get lite up or shot down if they were detected. As,after all, they were flying inside a combat zone.

I do not think an intervention from international community would be one(1) obsolete aircraft, do you?

I do not know who is right and who is wrong, but i do know since 2 countries are not at war, you would expect some courtesy in either radio contact or trying to escort the plane out of its airspace or landing it, you certainly do not expect to be shot down.

PS. Israeli fighter jets often fly over Syria and do not get shot down

[Scott]

More to this than meets the eye?

The US did not know about the locations of the "new" Russian anti-aircraft missiles, and as NATO partner did not tell Turkey?

As somebody else said, is this an attempt by the US to precipitate a "Sarajevo"?

Didn't someone muse 30 posts ago when this would happen?

Yes, there was musing about that, which I found rather amusing, however, another mod didn't and they were all sent on their way into cyberspace...which was the correct place for them. The difference is that those were meant to be humorous, we are now getting into different territory.

[koheesti]

An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all as the treaty says.

[Scott]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

[kerryk]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

Latest I heard on TV was it shot it down outside of Syria.

[midas]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

Latest I heard on TV was it shot it down outside of Syria.

didn't you hear-Syria imposed a no-fly zone

[harrry]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

Latest I heard on TV was it shot it down outside of Syria.

in syrian airspace.

[midas]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

Latest I heard on TV was it shot it down outside of Syria.

in syrian airspace.

It had strayed into Syrian territory in a "short, unintentional violation," but was notified by the Turkish side that it had crossed the line, and returned to international airspace

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/nato-member-turkey-says-syrian-jet-take-down-hostile-act

Edited June 24, 2012 by midas

[kerryk]

Would Syria shooting down a plane inside it's territory constitute an attack on that country?

Latest I heard on TV was it shot it down outside of Syria.

in syrian airspace.

BBC International air space

[midas]

double post

Edited June 24, 2012 by midas

[kerryk]

Our plane briefly violated Syrian airspace, but not during the time it was shot down,” Davutoglu said, according to the English-language Zaman newspaper website in Turkey. The foreign minister added that the plane was shot down about 15 minutes after having "momentarily" violated Syrian airspace, Turkish media reported.

[geriatrickid]

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know if civilian aircraft still overfly Syria or are they going around the country?

In the best of times, most non regional airlines seek to avoid this region's airspace whenever possible.

Any airline with conventional insurance will not be insured on the specific flight if it intentionally flies into a war zone. As well, there are EU sanctions in place that prevent airlines from providing service to Syria (except for approved activities).

That being said, there is still service into Damascus International. You raise a good question because it indicates that Syria still has access to the outside world, particularly the arab world. Current arrivals and departures;

Kuwait : Jazeera, Arab Emirates : Arabia, Egyptair: Cairo, Emirates: Dubai, Etihad: Abu Dhabi, Royal Jordanian: Amman, FlyDubai: Dubai

Iran Air: Tehran, Kish: Tabriz (Iran), Algiers: Air Algerie

The big surprise is Cargouix from Luxembourg still showing scheduled service. I have to wonder.

Basically, Syria has regional services with the Gulf States and Iran being the major destinations. I don't see any direct service to Turkey or the EU. There will be long lineups at the check-in desks when the time comes for the Alawites to leave.

[dingdang]

PS. Israeli fighter jets often fly over Syria and do not get shot down

because the syrians didnt have the missiles to get them down... until very recently...?

or do you suggest, the syrians didnt shoot down israeli fighters "out of courtesy"?

Edited June 24, 2012 by dingdang

[Yunla]

Turkish jet may have strayed into Syrian airspace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18562210

The 'coalition of the willing' are never going to be as willing to go into Syria, because Assad is a true patriot who believes fervently that even his most serious crimes are acts of devotion and patriotism. He also has a recent report 55% of the population want him to stay in power, while another 30% approve of his hardline actions against the 'criminals'.

If you provide statistics as facts, you should provide a link to verify what you are claiming.

Syria is locked down and they are shooting people who ask questions. Are you surprised that polls are scarce. Nonetheless those two figures are from polls I read online. The 20-30% is undisputed and the 55% is from a small poll. Also the suggestion in the 55% is that it is people who 'prefer Assad to the consequences of losing Assad', it is not the same as saying they approve of him. Secondly, Assad does have large popular support a lot of people who see him as a patriot. You can read interviews with people online if you have time. It is not a contentious claim, a lot of people hate him and oppose him but he has a large loyal following which is different to the 'coalition's earlier victims who were almost universally despised. I'm not pro-Assad at all, I just recognise in the hours of interviews I've watched of him in the last decade, he is a patriot and truly believes he is making Syria great, and that a lot of people believe him. Historically true patriots with conviction have been shown to cause serious damage in many cases especially when confronted. Again I have no agendas, I'm just commenting on what I've seen and read. In fact I see the 'coalition' as the military wing of some very shady people indeed.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Yunla

[Yunla]

Undisputed? Hmmm no. Chuck and I both dispute the 30%. So please list your source. Same with the 55%. Small, who cares! We both think you are lying (or at least I do) Where you got the information is more important. I have been watching the trail of pilots who have defected to Jordon and listened to their interviews. I think anyone who refers to Assad as a patriot is a nut case. He is a despot who rules Syria for his family profit.

Oh, BTW who are the very shady people? Or did you make those up too? I think you did. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. If I am wrong, if you do, then list your sources and identify the shady people. If not ........

I don't normally reply to trolls especially those such as yourself who wear your ignorance of politics as a badge of pride, and accuse people of 'lying' for no reason. I am surprised by your ferocity on this subject, especially as I was only saying Assad is a patriot and many people in Syria admire him for that.

To be a true patriot does not make you right or that your actions are best for the country, to be a true patriot means you genuinely believe your actions are for the country.

The 20-30% approval I cited is based on reading http://creativesyria...yriapage/?p=150 . Again, I also base my 20-30% on many other articles I have read over the years that show Assad has the type of hardline following who actually like him more than ever for his tough stance. The 55% was quoted as being 'people who would sooner have him than have chaos after him'. It was a passing mention and I have no reason be "lying" as you so offensively say to me. I am not Syrian and I am not pro coalition either. Unlike you, I am an impartial observer.

RE: 'shady people', again, wrong thread and it was a passing mention until you seized on it. Background reading on the 'new world order', Bilderberg group, CFA, TC, UN etc. There is a current sociological theory that believes nations are being intentionally de-sovereigned to make way for a single global government, run by the current banking-oligarchs and their private militias. The 2008 crash has been successfully linked on this shadow group, trying destabilise and break the economies of sovereign nations and also cripple their manufacturing base. They use the UN and 'coalitions' to break rogue states and make them ready for the new world order. Its a huge subject and you would have to go research it yourself. Removal of Assad and other die hard patriots is essential to this.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Yunla

[kerryk]

Undisputed? Hmmm no. Chuck and I both dispute the 30%. So please list your source. Same with the 55%. Small, who cares! We both think you are lying (or at least I do) Where you got the information is more important. I have been watching the trail of pilots who have defected to Jordon and listened to their interviews. I think anyone who refers to Assad as a patriot is a nut case. He is a despot who rules Syria for his family profit.

Oh, BTW who are the very shady people? Or did you make those up too? I think you did. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. If I am wrong, if you do, then list your sources and identify the shady people. If not ........

I don't normally reply to trolls especially those such as yourself who wear your ignorance of politics as a badge of pride, and accuse people of 'lying' for no reason. I am surprised by your ferocity on this subject, especially as I was only saying Assad is a patriot and many people in Syria admire him for that.

To be a true patriot does not make you right or that your actions are best for the country, to be a true patriot means you genuinely believe your actions are for the country.

The 20-30% approval I cited is based on reading http://creativesyria...yriapage/?p=150 . Again, I also base my 20-30% on many other articles I have read over the years that show Assad has the type of hardline following who actually like him more than ever for his tough stance. The 55% was quoted as being 'people who would sooner have him than have chaos after him'. It was a passing mention and I have no reason be "lying" as you so offensively say to me. I am not Syrian and I am not pro coalition either. Unlike you, I am an impartial observer.

RE: 'shady people', again, wrong thread and it was a passing mention until you seized on it. Background reading on the 'new world order', Bilderberg group, CFA, TC, UN etc. There is a current sociological theory that believes nations are being intentionally de-sovereigned to make way for a single global government, run by the current banking-oligarchs and their private militias. The 2008 crash has been successfully linked on this shadow group, trying destabilise and break the economies of sovereign nations and also cripple their manufacturing base. They use the UN and 'coalitions' to break rogue states and make them ready for the new world order. Its a huge subject and you would have to go research it yourself. Removal of Assad and other die hard patriots is essential to this.

Yunia, how soon they forget, you reply to me all the time. How could you forget our exchanges in the colored shirt thread where you told everyone you were a Swedish woman.

A patriot is a person who loves his country. Assad is a person who makes money from his country and kills his people. True patriots don't kill their countrymen. Stalin's and Hitler's do.

So you still won't identify what poll said 55% prefer Assad? So lets admit 55% is not from a poll. You made that up.

Your shady people. The United Nations, I assume that is what UN stands for, ya really shady. What is CFA and TC. Sorry I don't know.

[geriatrickid]

Background reading on the 'new world order', Bilderberg group, CFA, TC, UN etc. There is a current sociological theory that believes nations are being intentionally de-sovereigned to make way for a single global government, run by the current banking-oligarchs and their private militias. The 2008 crash has been successfully linked on this shadow group, trying destabilise and break the economies of sovereign nations and also cripple their manufacturing base. They use the UN and 'coalitions' to break rogue states and make them ready for the new world order. Its a huge subject and you would have to go research it yourself. Removal of Assad and other die hard patriots is essential to this.

Translation: I have no evidence to substantiate my allegations, so instead I will fall back on the tried and tested international conspiracy explanation. I will throw out out multiple allegations in hopes of distracting attention from the fact that my original assertion was BS.

BTW, in animal behaviour we were taught that sometimes the simplest explanation was the most likely. For example in Syria, Assad clings to power not because he is a patriot, but because he knows that he may die or lose much of his plunder, or worse be sent to live in exile in Iran, where hsi wife won;t be able to import luxury items and he won;t be able to drink fine whiskeys.

[slapout]

"Patriot" as a label, is in the eyes of the beholder, as is "Despot". History will make the judgement and as someone said, "history is written by the winners". Rebellion vs Civil war vs Protests (non violent or otherwise) are bandied around depending on whose side you favor.

History does seem to show that some of those called, " Patriots " have fallen into the 'despots' class as they devised ways to get power under the fight for freedom, demoracy, or whatever catchy term was/is is being used at that time. I am not aware of any 'Despots" claiming patriotesm, until they are brought to judgement by the people/system.

[Scott]

A personal exchange on the open forum has been deleted. If it resumes, posters will be given a suspension.

[folium]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson, 1775. Which just about sums up the Assad as patriot line.

Re the 55% approval rating see the link in my 16:09 post yesterday which explains the pathetically small sample size.

Assad and his father now both have serious form in murdering their own people in order to cling onto power.

Syria's murderous intentions have reached throughout the Middle East and beyond in their support and sponsorship of terrorism and 20 year occupation of Lebanon.

[chuckd]

Turkish jet may have strayed into Syrian airspace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18562210

The 'coalition of the willing' are never going to be as willing to go into Syria, because Assad is a true patriot who believes fervently that even his most serious crimes are acts of devotion and patriotism. He also has a recent report 55% of the population want him to stay in power, while another 30% approve of his hardline actions against the 'criminals'.

If you provide statistics as facts, you should provide a link to verify what you are claiming.

Syria is locked down and they are shooting people who ask questions. Are you surprised that polls are scarce. Nonetheless those two figures are from polls I read online. The 20-30% is undisputed and the 55% is from a small poll. Also the suggestion in the 55% is that it is people who 'prefer Assad to the consequences of losing Assad', it is not the same as saying they approve of him. Secondly, Assad does have large popular support a lot of people who see him as a patriot.

Mr. Folium has already located your blog survey. They apparently interviewed 97 Syrians to obtain these astounding figures.

See his post immediately preceding this one for the location of his "Eureka" post.

PS: Did you know that 58.35% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot?

Edited June 25, 2012 by chuckd

[folium]

Looks like the Turks are taking out their anger on the PKK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18570036

At least that won't escalate things and the Sarajevo moment (so enthusiastically sought by some) is avoided.

Sadly shoot downs of recon flights are nothing new (any confirmed news re the crew?), and now with drones more deployed involve fewer casualties.

[dingdang]

*edited out*

he just had to kill most of the population, in order to have his aryan race dream come true...

but he was a true patriot, he wished for all "only the best"...

even if assad is a "patriot" in some way, then its an attribute perhaps on rank 93,029,090.98...

within the top ten it wont show up, more likely dictator, despot, mass murderer...

Edited June 25, 2012 by Scott
baiting comment edited out

[Steely Dan]

Turkish jet may have strayed into Syrian airspace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18562210

The 'coalition of the willing' are never going to be as willing to go into Syria, because Assad is a true patriot who believes fervently that even his most serious crimes are acts of devotion and patriotism. He also has a recent report 55% of the population want him to stay in power, while another 30% approve of his hardline actions against the 'criminals'.

If you provide statistics as facts, you should provide a link to verify what you are claiming.

Syria is locked down and they are shooting people who ask questions. Are you surprised that polls are scarce. Nonetheless those two figures are from polls I read online. The 20-30% is undisputed and the 55% is from a small poll. Also the suggestion in the 55% is that it is people who 'prefer Assad to the consequences of losing Assad', it is not the same as saying they approve of him. Secondly, Assad does have large popular support a lot of people who see him as a patriot.

Mr. Folium has already located your blog survey. They apparently interviewed 97 Syrians to obtain these astounding figures.

See his post immediately preceding this one for the location of his "Eureka" post.

PS: Did you know that 58.35% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot?

Setting any figures aside, whoever frames this as a vote between Assad and some wooly western notion of democracy is sadly mistaken. Already the western backed rebels have begun ethnically cleansing the areas they occupy of Christians, except where they are more use as human shields. It is a cop out to on the one hand want Assad to go whilst on the other hand not ensure something as bad or worse does not replace him.