Why Is Thai So Hard For The English?

[Neeranam]

I have a friend who has been in Thailand for 30 years. He has a driver who can't speak English. I was out with him once and he asked me to tell the driver to turn left at the next road. Unbelievable! He totally relies on his wife to translate things. All because he said from the onset that Thai was too difficult. What a waste of many years. I'd hate to be so dependant on my wife. Learn the language and enjoy the benefits it brings - leave the wife at home!

Go to the Thai Language section pinned section and learn one word today, it ain't that hard.

[Insight]

Neeranam, top motivational stuff - cheers.

I learned to read and write Thai two years ago, but my vocabulary is minimal at best. Personally, I'm sick to death of getting involved in a conversation with somebody Thai, them throwing a few words into the conversation that I've never heard of, then me sitting there with a big stupid "mai khao jai" grin on my face.

Mission this year is to learn more Thai. If there's one more good reason needed, it's difficult to beat what Ulysses wrote -

I can easily talk the babes into doing perverted things that my buddies can only dream of.

How's that for a reason?

[warriors]

As they say, an Apple a day and a word a day, keeps the Dr and the wife happy

[buadhai]

As they say, an Apple a day and a word a day, keeps the Dr and the wife happy

Vocabulary isn't the problem.

What's the use of knowing words if you can't pronounce them so that they're understood or parse them when they're spoken?

Someone says "kai"; I don't know if they said "chicken", "egg" or "who". They all sound exactly the same to me.

I think the topic here is not to pass judgement on people who have tried and failed but to figure out why so many of us native English speakers don't succeed in spite of our best and lengthy efforts.

[steveromagnino]

I think the biggest problem is that as an adult, particularly an adult man of middle age, there is a role of knowing, looking after others and so on.

It is really hard to go back to knowing nothing. For most adults of this type, especially if they have never been a beginner at something as an adult (a new sport, a change in career) then they cannot handle this thought. They are going to be looking like an idiot. People will laugh at them as they butcher the language.

In short, for many they have forgotten how to learn and how to be like a child and get things wrong.

And couple this with the way most people teach tones (like kai = egg. Kai kai kai. egg. egg. egg. Can't you understand that?!) and the frustration grows.

Finally, for so many foreigners here, there is a genuine belief, perhaps shared with the more westerners (in particular) that they mix with, 'you don't really need to know Thai to live here'.

Inability to learn + inability to teach + lack of motivation is a lethal combination.

Learning the tones is not hard. I have taught countless people have to pronounce Thai tones. Get your teacher to pronounce all 5 tones, one after the other - mid, low, falling, high, rising. Again and again and again until you can hear the difference when together. After that, it is harder (sometimes) to pick what tone goes with what english word you are trying to say, but at least you nkow what the tones are. When speaking, try to concentrate on eliminating the intotation and tones that english encourages (e.g. some Aussies like to add a rising tone onto every single sentence). Stand and practise saying them. LIke a sheet music musician reader, you can play the notes if you practise them enough.

The b vs. bp (bor baimai bpor bplah), the d vs. Dt sound (dor dek vs. dtor dtaw), ng sound (ngor ngoo) all these can be taught through getting someone to physically explain where to put your tongue, where to push your lips and so on; they are a physical manipulation of your mouth that would be akin to trying to teach someone to roll an R. For many it becomes impossible to hear the difference, but at least if you know that to say fish requires pushing your lips harder together and pushing out the air to form a hard BP sound rather than just a B sound ups your chance of the Thai person listening and understanding.

The vowel length is where most westerners fall down; there are almost no equivalents in english anyway, so usually everything becomes a short vowel.

Key is to practise; and the problem is that there are a million and one excuses. Of my western friends, I can only think of a few that speak close to acceptable Thai, and that is because they work at it. The rest are fooling themselves that they miss out on nothing by not being able to speak it or don't live here which makes learning a lot harder.

Stick at it; don't be afraid to look like an idiot, and try to listen to as much Thai as possible. And stop making excuses. Then you can get quite far quite quickly; and at a certain point where you do understand more than about 60% you start to be able to understand and learn even more because people don't need to talk in pidgeon english or ultra slow Thai to you anymore.

Good luck.

[buadhai]

I wish I had a teacher. Ms. B is really not so inclined and I have nowhere to look.

Challenge: Do you know someone in Muang Korat who is willing to take on "an adult man of middle age" and teach him Thai? If the teacher succeeds, a substantial bonus is in the offing.

I hate not knowing how to speak Thai, but I hate even more the countless hours I've spent in a futile effort to learn....

[ChrisP]

One thing that doesn't help is that I find that some Thais switch off when they see a farang and even if you say something perfectly they didn't listen so they didn't understand

.

Oh, this is SO true.

Example. My bf and I get in a taxi to go home. I say clearly "Prachasongkro soi yisip" (exactly as he taught me.. with the right stresses on "kro" (and even pronounced a little like "kra"). The address is something I've practiced a LOT... just so I can get around on my own. (I've also learned turn left, turn right, left lane, go forward, stop here, short cut, give me xxbaht change.. etc.)

Taxi driver looks at me and doesn't move a muscle. I repeat it. Nothing.

The bf mumbles the SAME phrase.. the driver pulls way.

I ask the bf (who btw speaks great english) "ok, what did I say wrong?" He says "nothing, you said it perfectly. He wasn't expecting you to speak Thai"

I have to say this doesn't happen every time, but when it does, it's ###### depressing.

Btw, he can get in a cab with LOUD traffic, the radio on, and whisper the address to the driver, and we get there....!!! SIGH.

I agree with whoever said it's a VOWELS that are important. I think Thai's approximate based on the "tone" of the whole phrase.. that's why they can understand any of their many vowels in a noisy environment.

Ok, I do WANT to learn.. I'm tired of feeling so isolated in a foreign land. My problems are the tone system is SO entrenched in me for expression.. it's almost impossible to switch it off, and, right now, even if I make a Thai phrase, and by some miracle am understood, when they reply to me.. I have NO clue what they just said. So not only am I trying to speak correct Thai, I'm also trying to learn to understand what they say in a sentence too...

Not easy.

Why can I learn Spanish/Mexican with NO trouble...

ChrisP

PS I happened to get a woman Thai Taxi driver last week.. and she was wonderful! She spoke very small English, and listened to my stories of frustration in communicating with other Taxi drivers in Thai.. and she said "Well, I can understand your Thai..."

Made my day!

[Martin]

Posts 36 and 37 above ring all the bells with me.

If I try just a couple of my dozen or so words of Thai, the Thais just look at me blankly. So my wife says it again and they get the 'translation'.

However, with lots of smiles, drawing litle pictures and so on, I manage the very simple acts of communication in shops etc. (And I did once get a traffic cop laughing so much at my few words of Thai that he let me go, even though the radar gun had showed 147 kph on Highway 2.)

What frustrates me is my inability to decipher Thai signs. I have dictionaries and phrase books galore, but they have been no help to me.

Is there an idiots' guide to reading Thai available? Can anybody recommend anything, please?

[TAWP]

I can really indentifiy with the second last post. I have practised some basic terms to direct a cab-driver, especially the adresses of where I'm going, but the all seem to be perplexed that I say anything in thai - or my thai is really atrocious - that I have to say it several times, or take out the written note from my pocket...

Edited January 15, 2006 by TAWP

[Ulysses G.]

Joe Cummings and about 3 other Farangs in Thailand can actually speak the language. The rest of us are just going through the motions, speaking pidgin-Thai. However, I can make myself understood to about 8 out of 10 of the locals. The others stare at me like I'm speaking Martian.

What can you do? Mai phen rai.

[Dustoff]

You mean there IS an alternative to using hand gestures and speaking louder??? Heiniken, Glass, Marlboro Light and ashtray = sorted.

Having traveled the world for so long and moving too often to become really proficient in any one language (including my own), I have found myself relying on gestures that anyone in the world can understand.

Visualize how you would graphically present these essential basics:

Sleep

Eat

Pee

Lost

Help!

I eat snatch

There now, see how easy it is?

Edited January 15, 2006 by Dustoff

[buadhai]

I guess one of the hardest things to take is the arrogance of the accomplished. Those of you who have learned Thai need to remember that some of us who have failed have done so not out of sloth or a failure to try but because we just don't have the skills and abilities required to learn a tonal language.

I have some things that I am very good at. I don't belittle those who have accomplished less than I have in those areas. By the same token, those of you who have achieve a level of competence in speaking Thai should not automatically assume that those of us who have failed have simply not tried hard enough.

Statements like this: "Learning the tones is not hard"

are hardly helpful....

[Dustoff]

I simply cannot hear the differences in Thai tones. I have Ms. B repeat things over and over again and I just cannot tell if a tone is rising or falling or high or low or mid or whatever. If I can't hear the difference, how can I ever reproduce it?

Excellent post and very close to my own experience!

I have been coming to Thailand frequently since 1966 and have now been living here for five years as of May. I have picked up the basics of many different languages but in the realm of speaking Thai, I am a blithering idiot.

In my earlier days of attempting Thai, we had an apparently major religious master (with a cluster of doting followers in trail) visit our home and something I attempted to say in Thai had my wife racing from the kitchen shouting, "No, NO Ken, NO!! The devotees in tow were in total shock but fortunately a sense of humor prevailed and I was let off the hook.

The second event was at a rather classy restaurant here in CM and when I attemped to order breakfast in Thai, not only did the waitress race off as though I was the devil himself, every Thai person sitting at the surrounding tables either looked at me in stunned silence or moved to more removed seats. That was more than two years ago and to this day, my wife of five years will still not tell me what I said/ordered... "It is okay Ken, no need worry about learn Thai..."

It is a bitch being a lost cause, ain't it...?

[Bryan in Isaan]

.......

In my earlier days of attempting Thai, we had an apparently major religious master (with a cluster of doting followers in trail) visit our home and something I attempted to say in Thai had my wife racing from the kitchen shouting, "No, NO Ken, NO!! The devotees in tow were in total shock but fortunately a sense of humor prevailed and I was let off the hook.

The second event was at a rather classy restaurant here in CM and when I attemped to order breakfast in Thai, not only did the waitress race off as though I was the devil himself, every Thai person sitting at the surrounding tables either looked at me in stunned silence or moved to more removed seats. That was more than two years ago and to this day, my wife of five years will still not tell me what I said/ordered... "It is okay Ken, no need worry about learn Thai..."

It is a bitch being a lost cause, ain't it...?

Soooo.... What was it you were trying to say to the religious master and the waitress? And what did you actually say? Come on, you can tell us.

I've heard variations on these stories and I am waiting for that bomb to fall someday for me too. However, strangely enough, I think the Thais actually understand me sometimes. They prove it by answering or commenting according to what I said. Other times they just smile, nod and quickly walk away, thus proving that they didn't understand what I said.

Bryan

Edited January 15, 2006 by Bryan in Isaan

[the_heart_thief]

Because you use your tongue to speak English and your mouth to speak Thai. That's a d amn big difference!

[Tippaporn]

I guess one of the hardest things to take is the arrogance of the accomplished. Those of you who have learned Thai need to remember that some of us who have failed have done so not out of sloth or a failure to try but because we just don't have the skills and abilities required to learn a tonal language.

I have some things that I am very good at. I don't belittle those who have accomplished less than I have in those areas. By the same token, those of you who have achieve a level of competence in speaking Thai should not automatically assume that those of us who have failed have simply not tried hard enough.

Statements like this: "Learning the tones is not hard"

are hardly helpful....

This may apply to you, buadhai, and some of the others. If you kept telling yourself you can't then you can't. That, IMHO, is at the crux for you moreso than any other factor. Even though you may have tried for a decade, at some point you convinced yourself that you can't. And once you convinced yourself of it you've adopted an attitude that interferes with the learning process. You'll keep repeating a self-fulfilling prophecy to yourself over and over . . . It's what's defined as a mental block. You have to convince yourself that you can and drop that which doesn't help.

I hope I don't sound arrogant, as I don't intend any at all. Just trying to offer a rather important, even vital, factor that is commonly overlooked when attempting anything new. I hope to hear you say in your next post, "I will."

Edit: BTW, great posts all around!

Edited January 15, 2006 by Tippaporn

[Martin]

That is a very good point that is made by 'Tippaporn'.

If I am on my own and have to get understood, I always say (jokingly slowly and woodenly) "Poom Mai Poot Thai". Then give an apologetic smile. Then try my few words of Thai.

It seems that the "Poom Mai Poot Thai" and the smile puts them in a frame of mind of being willing to try fitting my following words into context.

At the worst (and provided you have it in your pocket) you can point to the word in a dictionary.

Or, as an aquaintance in Udon Thani does, have a few sheets of paper with his most-commonly-required phrases written on it, and pull it out and read the right one off. Often they will want to see what other phrases are on the paper (and he has some great 'pick-ups', as a result!!).

[buadhai]

Because you use your tongue to speak English and your mouth to speak Thai. That's a d amn big difference!

Does the brain come in there somehow?

Tippaporn: I remain determined. Last night I had my first unqualified success after living here for ten months. I went out shopping by myself and conducted every transaction in Thai. I understood everything that was said to me and everything I said was, I believe, understood as well. Anyway, I came home with what I set out to buy: two DTAC phone cards, a loaf of whole wheat bread and a kilo of oranges. I even got a good price on the oranges; 18 baht....

Edited January 16, 2006 by buadhai

[jackr]

For precisely the same reason that English is so hard for the English.

Those English who are able to learn to speak English mostly remain in England, being so well paid there. Those coming to Thailand, having ever failed to learn Received Pronunciation at home, cannot possibly be expected to master a tonal language like Thai.

So what you're saying is you think just because this is not England, all the English that are here are in fact of non-class and cannot speak their own language? Where are you from BTW? Don't worry, I think I can guess...that place where the natives drawl with one, decidel-screaching tone!

[meadish_sweetball]

Thai is not rocket science. If you can live with losing a bit of your dignity in the process and accept that in one respect you will be seen as a 5-6 year old again, you will be fine. And you may even live to see the day when you reach the linguistic age of 12.

Seriously, everybody can learn Thai with enough time, the right motivation and the right teacher. It's when you exoticize Thai and make it look like it is completely alien that it becomes difficult. If you use a normal scientific approach and concentrate on the features of the language that matter, you will be fine eventually..

Glad to hear of your success buadhai, hope it encourages you to keep using Thai in your everyday life.

The "I said it perfectly but they still dont understand me" happens to all of us. It is not always a sign that you said something wrong. It is just something you have to live with, however discouraging it can be.

Next time you get the blank stare, try to say very slowly and with clear tones: "phom/deechan phuud phasaa thai dai na (khrap/kha)", and then repeat the first thing you said. Usually works.

See it as tuning in a radio. They are listening on a different frequency (English) and if their English is not that great, they are sweating inside at the risk of losing face for not understanding - notice how preconceptions and fear block our ability to learn and think straight...

[skylar]

If I am on my own and have to get understood, I always say (jokingly slowly and woodenly) "Poom Mai Poot Thai". Then give an apologetic smile. Then try my few words of Thai.

I don't think I would say it like that. It literally means 'I don't speak Thai'... but aditionally sounds like 'I don't want to speak Thai'. Sounds a bit off. If I couldn't speak any, I'd just say pood thai mai dai - it's gentler.

[Tippaporn]

<snip>

Tippaporn: I remain determined. Last night I had my first unqualified success after living here for ten months. I went out shopping by myself and conducted every transaction in Thai. I understood everything that was said to me and everything I said was, I believe, understood as well. Anyway, I came home with what I set out to buy: two DTAC phone cards, a loaf of whole wheat bread and a kilo of oranges. I even got a good price on the oranges; 18 baht....

Buadhai, it's evident from your posts that you would continue with your attempts to learn Thai no matter how discouraging or fruitless it would appear to you. Your determination is totally obvious and sincerely exemplary. You already possess the essential ingredient to getting what you want. Tremendous desire.

Glad to hear of your success today. I doubt it to be coincidental, either; don't believe it to be at all. Focus on your successes and pay little attention to your failures and you'll amaze yourself. Not only will you continue to have success but that success will actually snowball. I'll be cheering you on even though you won't be aware of it.

And when the day comes when you've mastered Thai you can come and teach me!!

[Wes Turner]

It is very hard for the English, paractically impossible for most Americans and better we not speak about the Ozzies

Actually in my nine years experience it's the Brits and Aussies that speak it the best.

[Cassandra]

For precisely the same reason that English is so hard for the English.

Those English who are able to learn to speak English mostly remain in England, being so well paid there. Those coming to Thailand, having ever failed to learn Received Pronunciation at home, cannot possibly be expected to master a tonal language like Thai.

So what you're saying is you think just because this is not England, all the English that are here are in fact of non-class and cannot speak their own language?

Well he has a point.Most of the English contingent in Thailand are not exactly the best representatives of their country in terms of education,manners and class.Just take a walk down lower Sukhumvit to hear their slovenly syntax and mangled vowels.(I make no comment on their appearence which is usually appalling)It's probably too much of a stretch to expect these brutes speak Thai when they mutilate their own language.

[Tippaporn]

Ouch! Or in passa Thai, Oi.

Edited January 16, 2006 by Tippaporn

[jackr]

For precisely the same reason that English is so hard for the English.

Those English who are able to learn to speak English mostly remain in England, being so well paid there. Those coming to Thailand, having ever failed to learn Received Pronunciation at home, cannot possibly be expected to master a tonal language like Thai.

So what you're saying is you think just because this is not England, all the English that are here are in fact of non-class and cannot speak their own language?

Well he has a point.Most of the English contingent in Thailand are not exactly the best representatives of their country in terms of education,manners and class.Just take a walk down lower Sukhumvit to hear their slovenly syntax and mangled vowels.(I make no comment on their appearence which is usually appalling)It's probably too much of a stretch to expect these brutes speak Thai when they mutilate their own language.

Cockney rhyming slang at its best no doubt

Yes, he does have a point, and there are those types here in droves, but lets not be childish and tar the whole English expat community in Muang Thai with the same brush. There are unwashed miscrients here from all corners of The West.

[Guest endure]

For precisely the same reason that English is so hard for the English.

Those English who are able to learn to speak English mostly remain in England, being so well paid there. Those coming to Thailand, having ever failed to learn Received Pronunciation at home, cannot possibly be expected to master a tonal language like Thai.

Received Pronounciation is for Big Girls who live darn sarf

[Greer]

I am lucky enough to be able to hear tones (although I am not musically inclined at all).

My usual problem is remembering the tones if I have to say the word out of context.

I remember the fun when someone I met used the word "moy"...

When all else failed, and as none of my colleagues at the office could work out what it was, I eventually plucked up the courage to ask my secretary - she was completely puzzled, tried her "Talking-Dict" and various other reference works, but it was not unitl I thought again about the word in the context in which I had heard it that I realised I had used the wrong tone - triumphantly saying loud and clear enough for the girls in the whole office to hear "Oh I think it was MOY" (with a falling tone)...

From way across the office one of the girls exclaimed "Oh Khun Greer - VERY clear, very good...." and my secretary and the rest all breaking up laughing... but they still wouldn't tell me what it meant!

It was much later that I learned it means pubic hair....ahem.....

[meadish_sweetball]

I am lucky enough to be able to hear tones (although I am not musically inclined at all).

My usual problem is remembering the tones if I have to say the word out of context.

I remember the fun when someone I met used the word "moy"...

When all else failed, and as none of my colleagues at the office could work out what it was, I eventually plucked up the courage to ask my secretary - she was completely puzzled, tried her "Talking-Dict" and various other reference works, but it was not unitl I thought again about the word in the context in which I had heard it that I realised I had used the wrong tone - triumphantly saying loud and clear enough for the girls in the whole office to hear "Oh I think it was MOY" (with a falling tone)...

From way across the office one of the girls exclaimed "Oh Khun Greer - VERY clear, very good...." and my secretary and the rest all breaking up laughing... but they still wouldn't tell me what it meant!

It was much later that I learned it means pubic hair....ahem.....

Nice story. For the record the tone on "pubic hair" is rising though. หมอย (moi [Long Rising])

Next time you want to go on holiday with your Thai loved one, perhaps suggest you should "bpai[short Mid] doi[Long Mid] meung[short Rising]".

This is Thai rhyming slang. (I accept no responsibility for the reactions).

[Jersey_UK]

I remember the fun when someone I met used the word "moy"...

It was much later that I learned it means pubic hair....ahem.....

That's one of the words in my LIMITED vocab...........and oyster

I ltend to learn things from...............just pointing