Second Opinion On Maintenance Requirement Please? UK

[onthebike]

I was hoping someone can give me a second opinion on what my Lawyer wrote in my FIance visas application. Does anyone know if I meet the maintenance requirement? This is a copy of what my Lawyer wrote but wanted to get a second opinion. This is under the old rules by the way, the application has already been submitted.

Paragraph (iv) Adequate Accommodation and maintenance until the date of the marriage

Our client will live with her partner at his parents home until the marriage in September. The house is a four bedroomed property and there is at least one bedroom which our client and her partner will be able to occupy exclusively. A letter is provided from the parents of xxxxxxxxxx (see page 74) and the evidence of their ownership of the property (page 75-80). Our client also relies on a property inspection report from xxxxxxxxxx Council who inspected the property and confirmed that based on the number of occupants intending to live there the property will not be overcrowded (pages 75-80). This is confirmed by the Entry Clearance Guidance at MMA14 of the Entry Clearance Guidance.

Adequate maintenance until the date of the marriage is available from both the applicant and her partner. Our client’s current bank statement account number xxxxxxxx indicates funds of £1,257.

In addition our client relies on the funds available to her sponsor who is able to support her before their marriage. Our clients sponsors bank statement shows a balance of £3914.56 as of 14 May 2012. At the present rate of income support which is £111.45 per week for a couple our client and her partner have sufficient means to be supported without recourse to public funds for 46 weeks. In addition to this he has a balance of £3915.61 in his Cash ISA which indicates that our client can be supported for a total period of 81 weeks without recourse to other means of income (pages 50-63).

Our clients partner is currently in receipt of contributions based Employment Support Allowance as he is presently unfit for work. He has provided evidence of his benefit and evidence of his medical conditions which evidence the reason for receipt of this benefit. The benefit is not a public fund for the purposes of the Immigration Rules under S 6 and therefore reliance on this benefit is permissible and can not lead to a refusal of leave to enter. The current rate of benefit payable to xxxxxxxxxxx is £105 per week which taken together which his current savings indicates clearly indicates that he is able to support our client without additional recourse to public funds both before and after the marriage (pages 45-49).

Our clients partner also holds shares to the value of £1432.34 which would provide an additional source of income should it be required (pages 66-68)

[7by7]

I assume from some of what you say that you are talking about a UK application and have amended the topic title accordingly.

See PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING

[7by7]

It seems from the letter that you are relying on using your savings to meet the requirement, but have not explained what will happen when those savings run out. Were I an ECO I would want to know what provision you have made for this.

I see that your lawyer refers to page numbers; presumably pages of evidence. There appear to be 80 plus pages! The ECO is not going to read all of that.

[onthebike]

[

quote]It seems from the letter that you are relying on using your savings to meet the requirement, but have not explained what will happen when those savings run out. Were I an ECO I would want to know what provision you have made for this.

You are correct, although my Fiance says she wants to work when she is able too and has supplied her CV etc.

I see that your lawyer refers to page numbers; presumably pages of evidence. There appear to be 80 plus pages! The ECO is not going to read all of that.

Yes that was 80 plus pages of evidence.

[bangkockney]

On the face of it all looks OK. The thing that would annoy me if I were you, is paying fees for a legal professional to write a letter that contains so many grammatical errors and typos.

[7by7]

Yes that was 80 plus pages of evidence.

The ECO is not going to read all of that.

I always think it is better to submit too much rather than too little, but 80 pages!

Even if most of the pages are copies of phone records, bank statements etc.; why do you need 80 plus pages of evidence?

The ECO has 5 to 10 minutes to look at, assess and decide on an application. Do you really think s/he is going to wade through 80 pages in that time?

No, they're not. In the time available the ECO is going to have to skim through the evidence very quickly and because of this is highly likely to miss something vital and so refuse.

I strongly suggest that you go through the evidence your fiance intends to submit and do some weeding.

For example,

Our client also relies on a property inspection report from xxxxxxxxxx Council who inspected the property and confirmed that based on the number of occupants intending to live there the property will not be overcrowded (pages 75-80)

5 pages to say that it wont be overcrowded!

When my wife and stepdaughter applied for settlement all we submitted was a letter from my father inviting us to live in his house, confirming that only he and my mother lived there and as it was a three bedroom house there was room for us.

One page, not 5!

[onthebike]

Thanks guys,

Do you think I meet the maintenance requirement?

£3914.56 in a Current account

£3915.61 in Cash ISA (but dont think they will accept it as its an ISA)

£1,257 Fiance has in her current account

I receive 105 per week Contribution based ESA

We will live with my parents, no rent to pay.

Edited July 7, 2012 by onthebike

[VisasPlus]

Thanks guys,

Do you think I meet the maintenance requirement?

£3914.56 in a Current account

£3915.61 in Cash ISA (but dont think they will accept it as its an ISA)

£1,257 Fiance has in her current account

I receive 105 per week Contribution based ESA

We will live with my parents, no rent to pay.

To be honest, I could probably ( on what you have told us ) argue it both ways, to justify either issue or refusal. If I was the ECO I would perhaps be looking at your outgoings. Your bank statements will give a good overview of your expenditure over recent weeks, and going back 6 months. That would give me a far better picture on whether you can support you fiancee or not.

The ECO will probably also take any current expenses into consideration, such as your fiancees ticket cost, any support that you send to her regularly, the cost of any wedding ( if you have given details in your application), etc. It would be unfair to say here if you meet the financial requirements or not. It looks like your lawyer is satisfied ? Or has he expressed doubts ?

[onthebike]

VISAPLUS, thanks for your reply. Well my Lawyer said at the end of the letter of representation;

It is contended that as our client meets the above requirements and has provided evidence in support she is entitled to leave to enter the UK as the fiancée of Mr xxxxxxxxx.

The lawyer said she couldn't see any reason why it couldn't be successful and that it would be very hard for the ECO to find something to deny it with.

Can I ask you,

1) if the ECO said he wasn't satisfied that we met the maintenance requirements could we appeal and argue that we do based on what you can see?

2) Is the CASH ISA taken into account or would it be dismissed by the ECO because it takes 5 days to withdraw money from it and there is a penalty of a loss of interest?

[VisasPlus]

VISAPLUS, thanks for your reply. Well my Lawyer said at the end of the letter of representation;

It is contended that as our client meets the above requirements and has provided evidence in support she is entitled to leave to enter the UK as the fiancée of Mr xxxxxxxxx.

The lawyer said she couldn't see any reason why it couldn't be successful and that it would be very hard for the ECO to find something to deny it with.

Can I ask you,

1) if the ECO said he wasn't satisfied that we met the maintenance requirements could we appeal and argue that we do based on what you can see?

2) Is the CASH ISA taken into account or would it be dismissed by the ECO because it takes 5 days to withdraw money from it and there is a penalty of a loss of interest?

The answers:

1) Yes

2) No, it won't be dismissed ( or, at least, it shouldn't be). It is money that is available to you as savings.

[meatboy]

do your future wife know what your financial situation is,,i cant see that you have accounted for the cost of the marriage,the party,the visa application cost,the flights your stay in los also the family might want a few bob,has she any children,if all you have access to is £7,000 and no job how far do you think that will go dont get your hopes up to much because it will hurt if she is refused, good luck.

[simple1]

do your future wife know what your financial situation is,,i cant see that you have accounted for the cost of the marriage,the party,the visa application cost,the flights your stay in los also the family might want a few bob,has she any children,if all you have access to is £7,000 and no job how far do you think that will go dont get your hopes up to much because it will hurt if she is refused, good luck.

OP: Not to throw cold water, but have you ascertained if your fiancee is expecting some assistance to support her family in Thailand. This issue can/has caused friction if not resolved at the outset of the relationship when future wife is moving to your home country.

Edited July 9, 2012 by simple1

[onthebike]

VisasPlus, thanks for your answers, very helpful. Two more questions if thats oK?

The answers:

1) 1)

if the ECO said he wasn't satisfied that we met the maintenance requirements could we appeal and argue that we do based on what you can see?

Yes

1) and could we possibly be successful in an appeal in that situation?

2) Can you Visasplus help with an appeal?

Thanks Meatboy and Simple1 for your thoughts. Wedding is a simple one no real cost and probably paid for by my parents, she has no children, and have discussed about supporting her parents and thats not something of concern. Yes she knows my Financial situation. Thanks for your thoughts.

Edited July 9, 2012 by onthebike

[meatboy]

i think you need to read this forum so you understand the do's,the donts,and what you might encounter.

[VisasPlus]

VisasPlus, thanks for your answers, very helpful. Two more questions if thats oK?

The answers:

1) 1)

if the ECO said he wasn't satisfied that we met the maintenance requirements could we appeal and argue that we do based on what you can see?

Yes

1) and could we possibly be successful in an appeal in that situation?

2) Can you Visasplus help with an appeal?

Thanks Meatboy and Simple1 for your thoughts. Wedding is a simple one no real cost and probably paid for by my parents, she has no children, and have discussed about supporting her parents and thats not something of concern. Yes she knows my Financial situation. Thanks for your thoughts.

Answers:

1) Of course you can be successful. That is why there is an appeal system, so that the Immigration Judge can decide who is right.

2) I would worry about finding someone to help you with an appeal if the application is refused. Don't be so negative at this stage. Anyway, you have already paid a lawyer to represent you, and assisting you at appeal should be part of the arrangement you have. Is it mentioned in your contract with the lawyer ? We help our clients prepare an appeal, but cannot represent them in the UK. We don't charge any extra for the assistance we give, but the client must pay the actual appeal fee ( 80 GBP or 140 GBP ).

[onthebike]

1) Of course you can be successful. That is why there is an appeal system, so that the Immigration Judge can decide who is right.

Thanks for that reply, the reason I asked that was because some people said "Ohh you couldn't win an appeal if the ECO said you didn't meet the maintenance requirements because the Judge would have to agree with what the Law says about the maintenance requirements, but I think that may have been people speaking generally, rather than in our particular situation as like you said in "our" particular situation it could be argued either way that we meet the maintenance requirements as the maintenance requirements (before July 9th) is not black and white or a straight yes or a no you do or do not meet the maintenance requirements?

2) I would worry about finding someone to help you with an appeal if the application is refused. Don't be so negative at this stage. Anyway, you have already paid a lawyer to represent you, and assisting you at appeal should be part of the arrangement you have. Is it mentioned in your contract with the lawyer ?

I thought it did but apparently the fee I paid was just for the representation of the application not if we needed to appeal etc.

3) With the Fiance Visa (Pre July 9th) I was under the impression that we had to meet the maintenance requirement not just for the 6 months fiance visa but also for the Spouse visa;

(vi) the parties will be able after the marriage or civil partnership to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds;

However, a friend of mine said "ohh you only have to prove adequate maintenance for the 6 months of the Fiance Visa not to prove maintenance for the (in country FLR) Spouse Visa as that's a separate application form, but you would have to prove you meet the adequate maintenance requirement by the time you apply for the FLR In country Spouse Visa Application form after you get married though while on the Fiance Visa.

I was also told that if we did have to appeal the fiance visa that I could also submit evidence of 3rd party support, however I did not include that with the original application form as I didn't think I needed 3rd party support but my friend said I could submit evidence of 3rd party support if you did have to appeal so long as 3rd party support was available at the time you made the original application EVEN though the ECO would not have had that information in front of him at the time of making the decision. However, I didn't think that was true?

Edited July 10, 2012 by onthebike

[VisasPlus]

1) Of course you can be successful. That is why there is an appeal system, so that the Immigration Judge can decide who is right.

Thanks for that reply, the reason I asked that was because some people said "Ohh you couldn't win an appeal if the ECO said you didn't meet the maintenance requirements because the Judge would have to agree with what the Law says about the maintenance requirements, but I think that may have been people speaking generally, rather than in our particular situation as like you said in "our" particular situation it could be argued either way that we meet the maintenance requirements as the maintenance requirements (before July 9th) is not black and white or a straight yes or a no you do or do not meet the maintenance requirements?

2) I would worry about finding someone to help you with an appeal if the application is refused. Don't be so negative at this stage. Anyway, you have already paid a lawyer to represent you, and assisting you at appeal should be part of the arrangement you have. Is it mentioned in your contract with the lawyer ?

I thought it did but apparently the fee I paid was just for the representation of the application not if we needed to appeal etc.

3) With the Fiance Visa (Pre July 9th) I was under the impression that we had to meet the maintenance requirement not just for the 6 months fiance visa but also for the Spouse visa;

(vi) the parties will be able after the marriage or civil partnership to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds;

However, a friend of mine said "ohh you only have to prove adequate maintenance for the 6 months of the Fiance Visa not to prove maintenance for the (in country FLR) Spouse Visa as that's a separate application form, but you would have to prove you meet the adequate maintenance requirement by the time you apply for the FLR In country Spouse Visa Application form after you get married though while on the Fiance Visa.

I was also told that if we did have to appeal the fiance visa that I could also submit evidence of 3rd party support, however I did not include that with the original application form as I didn't think I needed 3rd party support but my friend said I could submit evidence of 3rd party support if you did have to appeal so long as 3rd party support was available at the time you made the original application EVEN though the ECO would not have had that information in front of him at the time of making the decision. However, I didn't think that was true?

Third party support introduced now, or at the appeal, will not be accepted. The ECO was obliged to make his decision on the evidence available at the the time, and that is what the Judge will consider at the appeal.

A Fiancee visa is a settlement visa, and the financial requirements must be met for settlement, not for the initial 6 months.

With respect, your lawyer should have told you all this. It somehow seems wrong that you have paid for someone to do the application yet you have many questions about the process and requirements.

[meatboy]

op we are all trying to help you so a few questions if i may,will you be present with your fiance,if not has she the info.on the no of visits youve made to thailand[stamps] proof of when you met,any finance you have given her,tellephone calls, there must be more so other members might help.if you are planning to get married in sept.why not wait and apply for a spouse visa together in thailand,it would look better if you were presentbecause you seem very negative,because if you are refused you talk about having a lawyer to apeal,by the time that comes along you will be married so you will be then applying for a spouse visa,the costs will be spirilling out of control.you already had a lawyer to present 80 pages when if you had come to tv earlier you would have been told 6-10 would have been plenty .

[VisasPlus]

One problem that you would have, if the application is refused and if you were to lose the appeal, is that in any new application your ESA would not be considered in the financial requirements under the new rules. That would mean that you would not be able to show any income at all.

[onthebike]

A Fiancee visa is a settlement visa, and the financial requirements must be met for settlement, not for the initial 6 months.

Visaplus, thanks for your reply. I thought so. When we apply for the FLR after we marry can we include 3rd party support then?

op we are all trying to help you so a few questions if i may,

will you be present with your fiance,

Do you mean if she has an interview?

if not has she the info.on the no of visits youve made to thailand[stamps] proof of when you met,any finance you have given her,tellephone calls, there must be more so other members might help.

Yes all the evidence you mention has been submitted along with the application form.

[7by7]

When we apply for the FLR after we marry can we include 3rd party support then?

No.

You will need to show at each application that the financial requirement is met. That is applying for the fiance visa; after the marriage when she applies for FLR; 30 months after that when she has to apply for FLR again and 30 months after that when she applies for ILR.

Third party support is no longer acceptable for any of those applications.

After the marriage and she has received her first FLR she will be able to work and obviously her income will be taken into account for subsequent applications.

[onthebike]

Visasplus, you mention

The ECO was obliged to make his decision on the evidence available at the the time, and that is what the Judge will consider at the appeal.

When we applied for the Visa we submitted evidence we would be staying with my parents and would stay with them until we found our own place after we got married, maybe a couple of months or so. The thing is I really hadn't planned on staying with my parents for much longer, and if we have to appeal I really don't want to be staying with my parents for another year which is how long an appeal could take to be heard. So if that's true in the same sense that I couldn't not submit anything the ECO would not have had in front of him at the appeal hearing then why should it matter if by the time the Judge reviews the appeal I have moved into my own place?

However, let me ask you, I want to make sure that it would not hurt my appeal if I move into my own place before the appeal date? I mean how can they not expect circumstances to have changed in a year?

7by7, thanks but we have already applied under the old rules weeks ago.

[7by7]

I had forgotten you have already submitted the application; isn't it too late to be asking all these questions?

You say that you have a lawyer acting for you. Why have they not answered all these questions for you before the application was submitted?

[onthebike]

I had forgotten you have already submitted the application; isn't it too late to be asking all these questions?

Some questions I just didnt think of and are to do with situations right now.

You say that you have a lawyer acting for you. Why have they not answered all these questions for you before the application was submitted?

Some of these quesitons I have just thought of and things that are coming along now.

[onthebike]

I am a bit worried as when we submitted the Fiance Visa application (pre July 9th) I have used my Cont Based ESA as a souse of meeting the financial requirement as in that I can use that to support my Fiance.

Income from the following sources will not be counted towards the financial

requirement:

Contribution based ESA

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/news/soi-fam-mig.pdf

But on here

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/modernised/cross-cut/public-funds/funds.pdf?view=Binary

Page 9 of 57

Cont ESA is not considered as public funds.

So I am worried that I can not use my ESA COnt towards the financial requirement? I am trying to find out if Contribution BASED ESA was for certain allowed to be used to meet the maintenance requirement before July 9th so that I know I am still ok?

[pigeonjake]

in the near future are you planing to go back to work, or are you going to be hoping to live off the state? just a thought, i think they might ask this,

[VisasPlus]

I am a bit worried as when we submitted the Fiance Visa application (pre July 9th) I have used my Cont Based ESA as a souse of meeting the financial requirement as in that I can use that to support my Fiance.

Income from the following sources will not be counted towards the financial

requirement:

Contribution based ESA

http://www.ukba.home...soi-fam-mig.pdf

But on here

http://www.ukba.home...pdf?view=Binary

Page 9 of 57

Cont ESA is not considered as public funds.

So I am worried that I can not use my ESA COnt towards the financial requirement? I am trying to find out if Contribution BASED ESA was for certain allowed to be used to meet the maintenance requirement before July 9th so that I know I am still ok?

In your first post you detailed your lawyer's letter, which includes this :

Our clients partner is currently in receipt of contributions based Employment Support Allowance as he is presently unfit for work. He has provided evidence of his benefit and evidence of his medical conditions which evidence the reason for receipt of this benefit. The benefit is not a public fund for the purposes of the Immigration Rules under S 6 and therefore reliance on this benefit is permissible and can not lead to a refusal of leave to enter.

If you have doubts then you should be talking with your lawyer, after all, you have paid him. If the application were to be refused on this ground alone, then surely your lawyer will refund some, or all, of his fee ?

To answer your question here, your application was under the old rules, and this is the official guidance for the old rules:

Public funds do not include benefits that are based on National Insurance contributions. National Insurance is paid in the same way as income tax and is based on earnings. Benefits to which a person is entitled as a result of National Insurance contributions include:

• contribution-based jobseeker's allowance;
  
• incapacity benefit;
  
• retirement pension;
  
• widow's benefit and bereavement benefit;
  
• guardian's allowance;
  
• statutory maternity pay;
  
• maternity allowance; and
  
• contribution-related employment and support allowance
  
• 
  

Under the new rules, ESA will NOT BE counted. If your application is refused, and you lose any appeal, then you will not be able to show any income from ESA to support a new application.

Edited July 21, 2012 by VisasPlus

[7by7]

It does seem strange that having paid a lawyer to construct such a detailed application that it included 80 pages of additional evidence you are now asking all these questions here!

I have to wonder whether or not you are asking him/her the same questions and what their response is.

Or have they pocketed their fee and now abandoned you?

I notice that they refer to you as 'our clients (sic) partner.' This, plus the spelling and grammatical errors in the part of the letter you quoted, makes me wonder if they are in the UK or Thailand.

If in the UK and they have abandoned you, you will have some redress. If in Thailand; sorry but you've lost your money.

[onthebike]

VisaPLus thank you!!!

I wondering if anyone knew, as you know my Fiance applied before July 9th for a Fiance Visa (also before 19th June). However, I would like to know if we didn't get the visa and we appealed, would how the Human Rights Act was interpreted before June the 19th be applied on appeal as that's how the ECHR was interpreted at the time we applied or would it be interpreted how it is interpreted at the time of the appeal? If it is the latter is true would this make things more difficult to use the ECHR in our appeal and in what way? as I was reading

"the Home Secretary introduced an interpretation wherein Article 8 was a QUALIFIED right rather than an absolute right. She put this before Parliament on 19 June where it was adopted. On the following day Home Office lawyers began IMMEDIATELY using the new interpretation for any appeal cases that relied upon Article 8"

Any advice appreciated.

[onthebike]

in the near future are you planing to go back to work, or are you going to be hoping to live off the state? just a thought, i think they might ask this,

Let me ask you this hypothetical question, if you were a person who had always worked hard and was undergoing chemotherapy and someone said to you "are you going to be hoping to live off the state?" how would you feel towards that person?