Gay Activists - Adoreable Or Unbearable?

[Jingthing]

..... gay activists ARE required to get things moving in MOST other countries.

Maybe you could NAME those "other countries" where "gay activists" can be identified as having had any positive and direct effect on civil/gay rights legislation?

Maybe not .....

In case facts are beyond you, I'll help you out by starting you off with Stonewall UK's getting legislation passed to allow gays to serve openly in the UK military.

Copied from the Vietnam/Gay Marriage thread, which was/is going waaay off topic.

Maybe we'll get an answer here .... or of course, maybe not.

Argentina good enough for you?

Among them was Marquez, who recounted a long fight for what he called equal rights. "We now have legal recognition, given by the state," he said. "We are so happy that the state did not stop our fight for equality."

http://www.washingto...0071501119.html

Edited August 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

If Argentina is the best you can come up with for "MOST other countries" then NO, its not nearly "good enough" for me - in fact its probably the worst possible example.

You seem to have forgotten the thread you started on Argentina's Transgender ID Card, only two months ago. That law, and the law on "dignified death" (euthanasia) were passed totally unopposed and Argentina is a great example of how a country that has suffered decades of oppressive dictatorship often adopts unusually liberal policies as a reaction once it can.

"Gay activists" may try to claim the credit for Argentina's new-found liberalism, but there is little to support their view (and yours) and all the indicators are that they had nothing to do with the change in policy.

The policies are the result of Kirchnerism, not gay activism - and also largely due to the influence of La Campora, the Argentine political youth organisation which supported the late Nestor Kirchner (president 2003 - 2007) and his wife Cristina Kirchner who took over the presidency from her husband. La Campora just happens to be headed by their son, Maximo Kirchner, who it is thought may run for office when his mother's term as president finishes in 2015 - and who is also thought to be gay and has been "outed"* in Argentina.

"Next" ......

* http://farandulargentina.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/gays-famosos-argentinos-ii/

[Jingthing]

How do you think the issues of gay rights get on the bloody RADAR in so many countries?

Sorry, Wiki alert:

While not given official recognition until 1992, the Comunidad Homosexual Argentina publicly campaigned for the human rights of LGBT people. Since 1987 the rights of gay and bisexual women have been defended by Cuadernos de Existencia Lesbiana. Significant legal and social progress began to be seen in the 1990's.

Dude, if we are INVISIBLE there is (almost always) no reason for politicians to take any action towards our equal civil rights. Now of course sometimes it backfires and backlashes occurs. But generally, without some pushing at least some increased visibility, that is something gay activists always provide, in most countries there is little hope for progress.

Gay activists don't have the power to legislate. Laws and governments do. So when you say the Kirchners have helped and I know they have, you think you have proved that gay activists didn't contribute to the political environment where it made it possible for such politicians to act. That is a huge flaw in your logic.

I don't get you. Never in my life have I encountered a gay person so hostile to gay activists, except in cases where they themselves were actually against gay rights. Self hatred happens.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Its one thing to get "on the bloody radar" and quite another thing to know when you're just an embarrassment and an obstacle to acceptance.

So .... no more countries, just abuse and bad language .... no change there, then.

[Jingthing]

Its one thing to get "on the bloody radar" and quite another thing to know when you're just an embarrassment and an obstacle to acceptance.

So .... no more countries, just abuse and bad language .... no change there, then.

First you get on the radar. Then you start to lobby for change through legal channels.

There is no point to list countries. Because Argentina was actually a great example and your rebuttal was total rubbish. So you think I'm a masochist and am going to sign up for more of your relentless abuse in your irrational agenda to disrespect gay activists? Not playing.

But I will keep with Argentina with the theory that your rubbish rebuttal there would apply to most other examples:

Even as tourism has been flourishing, so, too, has local gay activism. It was young gay rights advocates who successfully pushed to legalize same-sex unions, despite resistance from the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/americas/03argentina.html?_r=1 Edited August 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[hookedondhamma]

[Jingthing]

Ain't it the truth? Obviously, the international gay civil rights movement would be NOWHERE without the plethora of gay activists in so many countries over the years.

[Jingthing]

Here are some adorable American gay civil rights activists. We should celebrate them, not disrespect them! Warning: Harvey Milk content. Not suitable for some posters.

[endure]

Here are some adorable American gay civil rights activists. We should celebrate them, not disrespect them! Warning: Harvey Milk content. Not suitable for some posters.

You celebrate them if you want. They're of no significance to anyone outside the USA

[isanbirder]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

[Jingthing]

Here are some adorable American gay civil rights activists. We should celebrate them, not disrespect them! Warning: Harvey Milk content. Not suitable for some posters.

You celebrate them if you want. They're of no significance to anyone outside the USA

Many countries have gay activists. They are significant in many countries. Yes that video was the American gay civil rights movement. I reject the idea that in the internet age there isn't a lot of communication and inspiration across borders on gay civil rights issues. Countries have specific situations that are unique to them but in many cases there are commonalities.

[Jingthing]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

Why wouldn't you support the people on the front lines working for civil rights? This is baffling to me.

[MrRealDeal]

Unbearable not because of what they are doing but because they ALWAYS have to be right , thier opinion is the ONLY one that matters , most anyone who disagrees is Hatefull, ignorant , ect ...... They think they are always the smartest people in the room . ect ect ect ...... And it's not even so much that they might not be, it's that they HAVE make it obvious they think it. They always need to have the last word on any subject , ect , ect , ect.

And I'm not refering to anyone in paticular even though the shoe might fit , I am refering to activists in general , be it Global Warming or Wall Street Protesters or anything else.

Most of em are on the Far fringe of reasonable and only want to talk and never listen and learn because they have decided they are right about everything they believe long ago and have less intrest in learning than teaching and preaching.

[endure]

Here are some adorable American gay civil rights activists. We should celebrate them, not disrespect them! Warning: Harvey Milk content. Not suitable for some posters.

You celebrate them if you want. They're of no significance to anyone outside the USA

Many countries have gay activists. They are significant in many countries. Yes that video was the American gay civil rights movement. I reject the idea that in the internet age there isn't a lot of communication and inspiration across borders on gay civil rights issues. Countries have specific situations that are unique to them but in many cases there are commonalities.

I was specifically taking about the people in the video you linked to.

[endure]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

Why wouldn't you support the people on the front lines working for civil rights? This is baffling to me.

Because we don't agree with their methods? Because we think they're more a hindrance than a help? Because we think they're alienating people who otherwise would be on our side? There are lots of reasons not to support people who you think are actually harming a cause rather than helping it. Are we expected to give unconditional support to people just because they tell us to?

[endure]

Unbearable not because of what they are doing but because they ALWAYS have to be right , thier opinion is the ONLY one that matters , most anyone who disagrees is Hatefull, ignorant , ect ...... They think they are always the smartest people in the room . ect ect ect ...... And it's not even so much that they might not be, it's that they HAVE make it obvious they think it. They always need to have the last word on any subject , ect , ect , ect.

Give that man a prize.

[isanbirder]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

Why wouldn't you support the people on the front lines working for civil rights? This is baffling to me.

Who said I didn't support them? I don't have to like everyone I support.

[isanbirder]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being personal.... there are NO gay activists on this forum, unless some people are living and working in their own countries, which I wouldn't know about. We can have no influence on Thai gay rights.

What we have here are hot air merchants, ALL of us, myself included.

[hookedondhamma]

Unbearable not because of what they are doing but because they ALWAYS have to be right , thier opinion is the ONLY one that matters , most anyone who disagrees is Hatefull, ignorant , ect ...... They think they are always the smartest people in the room . ect ect ect ...... And it's not even so much that they might not be, it's that they HAVE make it obvious they think it. They always need to have the last word on any subject , ect , ect , ect.

Give that man a prize.

lolol this is why I have a deep respect and love for my family, and not my biological family.

[LeCharivari]

Sorry, Wiki alert:

While not given official recognition until 1992, the Comunidad Homosexual Argentina publicly campaigned for the human rights of LGBT people. Since 1987 the rights of gay and bisexual women have been defended by Cuadernos de Existencia Lesbiana. Significant legal and social progress began to be seen in the 1990's.

Sorry, BS ALERT!!!

The "QUOTE" given was NOT FROM THE LINK given!

It was, instead, from A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ARTICLE in wiki, headed:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. This article needs additional citations for verification. (July 2012) This article may be slanted towards recent events. (July 2012)

This article's lead section may not adequately summarize all of its contents. (July 2012)

Its one thing to post misleading information of your own and a totally different thing to post a "quote" you claim to be from one link which is actually from a different one - particularly when the actual source itself says that the reference has "multiple issues" and is not verified, etc.

I was tempted to say "unbelievable", but now I'd believe anything of you (and nothing from you).

[LeCharivari]

.....So when you say the Kirchners have helped and I know they have, you think you have proved that gay activists didn't contribute to the political environment where it made it possible for such politicians to act. That is a huge flaw in your logic.

I did NOT "say the Kirchners have helped" or anything remotely like it.

There had been NO legal or social progress concerning gay rights in Argentina from 1887 when same-sex activity was legalised until 2003 when the first Kirchner became President. NONE. NO successful lobbying. NO court cases, successful or otherwise. NO changes to the Constitution. NOTHING. That isn't "logic" - its FACT.

There is no point to list countries. Because Argentina was actually a great example and your rebuttal was total rubbish. So you think I'm a masochist and am going to sign up for more of your relentless abuse in your irrational agenda to disrespect gay activists?

ThaiVisa rules prevent me from posting what I think of you.

[LeCharivari]

]Why wouldn't you support the people on the front lines working for civil rights? This is baffling to me.

Because we don't agree with their methods? Because we think they're more a hindrance than a help? Because we think they're alienating people who otherwise would be on our side? There are lots of reasons not to support people who you think are actually harming a cause rather than helping it. Are we expected to give unconditional support to people just because they tell us to?

No, endure, we're expected to give unconditional and unquestioning support to people just because we happen to have been born with something in common.

... and if we don't give that unconditional and unquestioning support then we're opening ourselves up to a tirade of abuse, lies, innuendo and hatred and the wild accusation that if we're not with them then somehow we're against them.

[endure]

... and if we don't give that unconditional and unquestioning support then we're opening ourselves up to a tirade of abuse, lies, innuendo and hatred and the wild accusation that if we're not with them then somehow we're against them.

That was George Bush's MO wasn't it?

[LeCharivari]

... and if we don't give that unconditional and unquestioning support then we're opening ourselves up to a tirade of abuse, lies, innuendo and hatred and the wild accusation that if we're not with them then somehow we're against them.

That was George Bush's MO wasn't it?

George W Bush's ..... unfortunately some people lacked the courage to say "we're not against you, but we don't approve of what you're doing or the way that you're doing it".

[LeCharivari]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

I'm not so sure that we do "need them", or at least "need" the more extreme, vocal ones who alienate far more people than they win-over. Maybe we just think we do because they make so much noise and annoy and alienate so many people that we think they must be achieving something, and then when change happens they claim responsibility for it and generously thank others for their "help" and we fall for their hype and spin and give them credit where none is due.

The more extreme animal rights/anti-vivisectionists lobby are a prime example. Did the Animal Liberation Front actually achieve anything or, like the equally extreme and rather more ridiculous Gay Liberation Front, were they totally counter-productive setting back animal rights and gay rights respectively until they disappeared from the scene altogether and more rational and acceptable campaigners took over who managed to distance themselves from the activists?

[endure]

... and if we don't give that unconditional and unquestioning support then we're opening ourselves up to a tirade of abuse, lies, innuendo and hatred and the wild accusation that if we're not with them then somehow we're against them.

That was George Bush's MO wasn't it?

George W Bush's .....

They all look the same to me...

[isanbirder]

Gay activists are like politicians; we need them, but we don't have to like them.

I'm not so sure that we do "need them", or at least "need" the more extreme, vocal ones who alienate far more people than they win-over. Maybe we just think we do because they make so much noise and annoy and alienate so many people that we think they must be achieving something, and then when change happens they claim responsibility for it and generously thank others for their "help" and we fall for their hype and spin and give them credit where none is due.

The more extreme animal rights/anti-vivisectionists lobby are a prime example. Did the Animal Liberation Front actually achieve anything or, like the equally extreme and rather more ridiculous Gay Liberation Front, were they totally counter-productive setting back animal rights and gay rights respectively until they disappeared from the scene altogether and more rational and acceptable campaigners took over who managed to distance themselves from the activists?

I agree with you, LeC, but it would have spoilt my one-liner!

[tombkk]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being personal.... there are NO gay activists on this forum, unless some people are living and working in their own countries, which I wouldn't know about. We can have no influence on Thai gay rights.

What we have here are hot air merchants, ALL of us, myself included.

I was a very active gay activist in Germany in the 1980s... OK, that's quite some time ago, and was on another continent.

My gay activism over here is just living a gay lifestyle. That includes bringing my boyfy of almost ten years to official invitations to which I am invited "with spouse". I get invited to embassy receptions and to Thai government functions, among others.

Let me know whether you consider this hot air.

[hookedondhamma]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being personal.... there are NO gay activists on this forum, unless some people are living and working in their own countries, which I wouldn't know about. We can have no influence on Thai gay rights.

What we have here are hot air merchants, ALL of us, myself included.

I was a very active gay activist in Germany in the 1980s... OK, that's quite some time ago, and was on another continent.

My gay activism over here is just living a gay lifestyle. That includes bringing my boyfy of almost ten years to official invitations to which I am invited "with spouse". I get invited to embassy receptions and to Thai government functions, among others.

Let me know whether you consider this hot air.

9 years plus close to 10 - congratulations to you both!!! Here's to many, many more!!!!

[isanbirder]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being personal.... there are NO gay activists on this forum, unless some people are living and working in their own countries, which I wouldn't know about. We can have no influence on Thai gay rights.

What we have here are hot air merchants, ALL of us, myself included.

I was a very active gay activist in Germany in the 1980s... OK, that's quite some time ago, and was on another continent.

My gay activism over here is just living a gay lifestyle. That includes bringing my boyfy of almost ten years to official invitations to which I am invited "with spouse". I get invited to embassy receptions and to Thai government functions, among others.

Let me know whether you consider this hot air.

Good for you, Tom.... and especially good for your partner!

For sure, that is not hot air.... but what is on this forum, equally for sure, is.