30 Year Lease On New House?

[sms747]

Unfortunately that usufruct explanation in the above pdf is not completely correct.

Very disturbing for a piece that a lawyer has written.

Interesting replies, except the 'buy a condo' ones, that is not what we are doing. Will go down the usufruct route as better than nothing and contacted a well known lawyer upcountry. They wanted over 6.000 baht just to help with it over the internet, you still had to do it yourself, seemed a bit much. Are there any do it yourself guides on here or the web?

[khunPer]

Unfortunately that usufruct explanation in the above pdf is not completely correct.

Very disturbing for a piece that a lawyer has written.

Interesting replies, except the 'buy a condo' ones, that is not what we are doing. Will go down the usufruct route as better than nothing and contacted a well known lawyer upcountry. They wanted over 6.000 baht just to help with it over the internet, you still had to do it yourself, seemed a bit much. Are there any do it yourself guides on here or the web?

You can read some about Usufruct in the book: »How to Buy Land and Build a House in Thailand« by Philip Bruce, Paiboon, 1-887521-71-2, on page 16 to 19. Some Land Departments do not accept Usufruct terms - check before you buy the land - and some may reduce the term to 30 years (in line with French Law, Usufruct originates from Roman Law).

Philip Bryce writes (page 16):

»The Usufruct or "Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit" in Thai, is a notation that is added to the land title document together with your name. It costs 75 bath [book published 2006] to add this to the land deed/title and must be done at the time of purchase/transfer title. I believe there is a limit of 1 Rai on the size of the land this can apply to and there may be other restrictions...«

[sms747]

many thanks that's a good start.

[besth]

Unfortunately that usufruct explanation in the above pdf is not completely correct.

Very disturbing for a piece that a lawyer has written.

Interesting replies, except the 'buy a condo' ones, that is not what we are doing. Will go down the usufruct route as better than nothing and contacted a well known lawyer upcountry. They wanted over 6.000 baht just to help with it over the internet, you still had to do it yourself, seemed a bit much. Are there any do it yourself guides on here or the web?

You can read some about Usufruct in the book: »How to Buy Land and Build a House in Thailand« by Philip Bruce, Paiboon, 1-887521-71-2, on page 16 to 19. Some Land Departments do not accept Usufruct terms - check before you buy the land - and some may reduce the term to 30 years (in line with French Law, Usufruct originates from Roman Law).

Philip Bryce writes (page 16):

»The Usufruct or "Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit" in Thai, is a notation that is added to the land title document together with your name. It costs 75 bath [book published 2006] to add this to the land deed/title and must be done at the time of purchase/transfer title. I believe there is a limit of 1 Rai on the size of the land this can apply to and there may be other restrictions...«

Land departments must accept usufruct terms if the right title deed is produced. They can't legally limit them in duration either. There is no 1 Rai limit for usufruct.

Obviously, what happens in practice, who knows.

[rhains]

Well, I am back in Thailand and have met with 3 Lawyers...

Lawyer 1. Stated (as I thought he would) that the company ownership option is not legal and he would not risk his rep' on this way. He suggested 30 year lease back with prenuptial type agreement with my GF. So...... does anyone know if this is an option.

Lawyer's 2,3 endorsed the company route........ 51 % Thai etc etc.

I have to make a decision in the next fortnight and therefore I would appreciate any advice.

I do not want to buy a Condo.

What I will say is that I am becoming tainted with the whole affair. My confidence in a country where so called Lawyers can offer inaccurate advice advocating illegal activities and there be no recourse on this is worrying.

When discussing the situation with my GF (whom I have been with for 7 years and I trust), she like many Thai I meet, has total confidence in the systems. She believes anecdotal evidence of friends etc etc. Any conversations therefore seem to deteriorate into a trust issue or an attack of Thailand. From my point of view to sign over the ownership / monies so I have little or no control in a country 7000 miles from the UK seems to be fool hardy.

I may have answered my own apprehensions here but always appreciate the advice of people with greater knowledge and experience of these matters.

Regards,

Rhains.

[LennyW]

Well, I am back in Thailand and have met with 3 Lawyers...

Lawyer 1. Stated (as I thought he would) that the company ownership option is not legal and he would not risk his rep' on this way. He suggested 30 year lease back with prenuptial type agreement with my GF. So...... does anyone know if this is an option.

Lawyer's 2,3 endorsed the company route........ 51 % Thai etc etc.

I have to make a decision in the next fortnight and therefore I would appreciate any advice.

I do not want to buy a Condo.

What I will say is that I am becoming tainted with the whole affair. My confidence in a country where so called Lawyers can offer inaccurate advice advocating illegal activities and there be no recourse on this is worrying.

When discussing the situation with my GF (whom I have been with for 7 years and I trust), she like many Thai I meet, has total confidence in the systems. She believes anecdotal evidence of friends etc etc. Any conversations therefore seem to deteriorate into a trust issue or an attack of Thailand. From my point of view to sign over the ownership / monies so I have little or no control in a country 7000 miles from the UK seems to be fool hardy.

I may have answered my own apprehensions here but always appreciate the advice of people with greater knowledge and experience of these matters.

Regards,

Rhains.

The answers are on this page - Usufruct !!

[TommoPhysicist]

From my point of view to sign over the ownership / monies so I have little or no control in a country 7000 miles from the UK seems to be fool hardy.

I really do think any money you spend on property in Thailand must be considered as a free gift to your GF.

[PattayaPhom]

From my point of view to sign over the ownership / monies so I have little or no control in a country 7000 miles from the UK seems to be fool hardy.

I really do think any money you spend on property in Thailand must be considered as a free gift to your GF.

Gifts are normally free, you could look at it as paying rent in advance and having a better quality of living than renting from a landlord

[Khun Jean]

Money spent on land that you can use with a usufruct is absolutely not a gift to a GF.

That is just complete nonsense.

As you have no way selling it or leasing it out for more than 3 years at a time without the GF cooperation it can however become an 'anchor' on your leg.

If after a while you want to move, you are not free to do so by your own will (ok i mean without a financial loss), again you have to rely on someone else.

Building a house on it can be done without cooperation, it will be yours 100%, when you want to sell you again need someone elses cooperation if you want to transfer the usufruct or make a lease. The house can be sold easily as it can be owned freehold, only problem is the land ownership. A house without land is not worth much.

As such a usufruct can not be used like a freehold which you can sell any time you want without any ones cooperation.

There is no way you can get out under the need for cooperation from someone else. Any clause in a contract will not be a real right and is only personal. Meaning someone can just transfer the land to someone else and be freed of all those clauses.

Only what is registered on the chanot is valuable!

Going "fiddler on the roof".....

On the other hand:

The GF can do nothing with the land also. She would not be able to sell it for a good price and she can not do anything with it.

This can be a bargaining power if you need to sell or move.

On the other hand:

It will cost you some money.

In summary, only 'buy' land and house if you want to live there until your dying day, or trust that the landowner will cooperate.

Cooperation can be bought though, i assure you it won't be cheap.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Khun Jean

[electau]

This Thai website may be informative.

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land_lease.html

Follow and read the links.

Usufruct. see the following.

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/usufruct.html

Edited July 30, 2012 by electau

[sms747]

I had some prices for usufruct from 3 lawyers highest was 40k, then 12 and the lowest was 6k. The 6k was for just help over the internet. Still would like to know how to DIY. 40k is taking the P I think.

[Khun Jean]

150 baht, the people at the landoffice will help you fill it in and inform both parties what it means.

Only use a lawyer when the landoffice is not cooperative, the lawyer will be your leverage, you know Thais and people with assumed 'power' and al that.

Just pay for his time, and let him say what you want him to say.

Easier that way, you don't want the lawyer to corrupt your mind or screw up the contract.

Use the official standard one, they have them at the landoffice.

Most importantly this document will be recognized in court, whereas one written by a lawyer will be seen as trying to circumvent landowner issues and can be actually used against you when one of the added clauses (thats what lawyers do) is against the spirit of the law.

[SouthernMan3]

I found this on the internet. Interesting reading.

"We have an example of a client who took over the lease of empty land from his friend and registered the 30 year lease of with the Land Office. We advised him to build a house under his name, so he had to apply for the construction permit under his name. After the construction, he will apply for the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”) under his name, and many people laughed and objected at to this idea by saying that there is no law allowing foreigners to do such a thing. I just followed the principle, – “Foreigners can do everything, except where there is a clear restriction imposed by the Thai laws.” Nobody could find any restriction, but now this foreigner has the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”), under his name, and we have never paid even one Baht to anybody to obtain this proper legal document; – may Justice prevail for our community"

http://thaisolicitor.com/?p=32

TommoP is correct about what he said about contracts between spouses made during marriage. They can be canceled by either spouse. The above scenario is different even if the lessor on the land is a wife. If you build a house on her land and you put your name on the building permit and all house papers, the house will be yours, not your wife's even if she cancels the lease on the land. That may create other problems but the house will still be yours and you can sell it to her, if you wish. In the event of a divorce f.e. Your best bet in this situation would be to take a usufruct for your life on the land. it is disputable if a usufruct can be canceled, it is not the same as a lease. Usufruct contracts are for land only, not buildings although it grants you the right to any building you erect on the land. But if you want a similar contract for a house, it is a superficies you should look at.

Can you please remind me what a usufruct is called in Thai ?

Thanks

[khunPer]

Sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit