Uk: Birmingham Terror Suspects Accused Of Manufacturing Explosives

[sauvagecheri]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

I hope you are right ,But the facts speak for themselves ,I am totally sure most Muslim people are fine folks ,just like the pre WW2 German folks were great people ,so are the Russians .Not to mention the Cambodians .The problem lies with some hard core ideologists that know how to whip the good people in murderous frenzy .

So do you know any Muslims?

,

Have I met some ?,

Yes I do .I met this very nice Turkish man in Hua Hin who is quite liberal and interesting to talk with, he eats pork and does not mind having a beer or two after work ,I have been around Algerian people in Belgium ,and Turkish families ,all of them are quite decent hard working people .

Dont misunderstand me I am not a "Muslim hater" per se ,I do not "Hate" anyone and deal with people on a personal basis and yes I agree with you ,that most people are decent and peace loving.

I still think there are powerful and numerous extremist groups that are interpreting and using their faith for political goals that are not working in our favor ,the use of terrorist tactics such as we are discussing in this forum,meant to distabilise and silence us in abject cowardice and submission,and the use of massive legal and illegal welfare based immigration

There is a greater agenda and a concerted effort by extremist designed to simly put to "take over " convert and control the world ,Old story of conquest !

[sauvagecheri]

The idea that muslim ideology is the cause of islamic terrorism is just wrong. The muslim faith has existed for over 1000 years but most of the islamic terrorist groups have only recently gained popularity.

The vast majority of British muslims (and all muslims around the world, in fact) are just as opposed to terrorism as everyone else. I don't know where you could have found a survey that suggests otherwise. The very small number that do become involved in terrorism are generally members of the disaffected youth who (erroneously in my opinion but not unsurprisingly given the negative picture painted by the media) lack confidence about (and fear) the future.

A small minority of young people of any background end up taking the wrong path to seek attention, whether that be by joining gangs, dealing drugs, football hooliganism, following the National Front, committing random senseless crimes such as arson or graffiti, or supporting terrorism. It is not surprising that a small minority of Muslim youths see the huge coverage the media gives to Islamic terrorism and see that as a way to gain attention.

Nobody here is denying that Islamic terrorist groups exist but it is important to put the issue into perspective (in comparison to the many other problems in the world today). As I said before, discrimination against muslims will not reduce (but probably will promote) islamic terrorism.

The way to deal with terrorist threats (of all types) is intelligence (which is of course facilitated by engagement with and fair treatment of the muslim community at large). This the way the Brtiish police are dealing with the threat from terrorism and (it cannot be denied) they are doing an excellent job.

Sorry, but it has been around for the last 1400 years ,and WAS a terrorist organisation since its very beginning ,converting by threat and violence,,Egypt ,Syria ,Lebanon,Turkey had large Christian populations ,and were conquered by arms ,they took over India for about 1000 years and brought sheer terror in that country ,watch these fascinating Indian produced videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AYCLiFGl0c&feature=related :

,the abuses were unbelievable ,I lived in India and I have to tell you Indians remember those times as a particularly dark era in their history,they finally succeded in booting them out after about 80 millions Hindus perished ,were brought into slavery or converted by force .

The main problem as I see it is that the religious texts do not preach peace cooperation and love ,but fight and conquer ..

AS far as the " Disaffected youth " story (excuse) we allowed these people to come in large numbers ,when our own economies cannot even provide enough jobs for the native population ,most immigrants are ill equipt to hold jobs because of lack of skills ,language skills,dress and generally have huge attitude problem ,their women as well because of cultural bias are not even allowed to work and to boot the religion does not permit integration to another culture .

Their solution : convert US LOL ! And make us adapt to their ways ..

Edited July 15, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[simple1]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Edited July 15, 2012 by simple1

[brit1984]

Don't worry, the muslims are not going to convert everyone to Islam! Where did you get that idea?!

The disaffected youth are not just muslims (or immigrants); they are just a group of (generally) quite poor kids (of various ethnicities and religious faiths).

From my experience as an employee and employer (in the UK) your statement that they "are ill-equipped to hold jobs because of lack of skills, language skills, dress and generally have huge attitude problem" applies much more to young Brits than it does to immigrants.

It is clear you are living in fear of muslims / immigrants, which is a little bit sad, but I am scared of snakes (which is just as an irrational) and my wife is scared of ghosts (which is even more irrational) so "up to you".

[Exsexyman]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

I hope you are right ,But the facts speak for themselves ,I am totally sure most Muslim people are fine folks ,just like the pre WW2 German folks were great people ,so are the Russians .Not to mention the Cambodians .The problem lies with some hard core ideologists that know how to whip the good people in murderous frenzy .

You seem to be allowing your obvious fear of all things Muslim to confuse yourself. Earlier you stated that by definition if a Muslim had moderate views he was not a Muslim. Then you say that you met a nice Turkish one in Hua Hin, who ate Pork and liked a beer after work! So by your definition he can't have been a Muslim! Using your logic, an Irish catholic who doesn't support the IRA is not a true catholic. I have no doubt that even today, if you dug deep enough, you would find more than a few hardline Orangemen in Belfast espousing this view, or something similar. Likewise their counterparts on the other side. But it doesn't make it a fact. I believe terrorists everywhere who kill and maim innocent people in the name of 'Their cause', should be dealt with appropriately. I also believe, after knowing and working with Muslim people over the years in the UK, that the vast majority of them are no different to anyone else. They tend to keep themselves to themselves, but on the whole they were honest, decent, hardworking people. Yes, i do believe that some, the younger ones especially, are becoming radicalized. But there is a big difference between becoming politically aware, and the tiny minority of suicide bombers who would go out and blow up a tube train. The problem is, regarding this radicalization, the West, and the USA and UK in particular refuse to even acknowledge what is known as cause and effect. There is no doubt that these Governments are sending out mixed and extremely hypocritical messages about what constitutes terrorism. Islamic terrorists and suicide bombers in countries that have governments who support their interests = Bad. Islamic terrorists in countries like Libya and Syria where the governments don't = Good. We will even supply them with high tec weaponry. In the face of these, and many other double standards of course some young Muslims in the UK and elsewhere are ripe pickings for radicalization. Not to acknowledge this is at best naive, at worst dishonest.

Here is an interesting story of one young Muslim in the UK and his treatment at the hands of law and order. He was lucky to have a senior lecturer at his university who was well connected enough to do something about this treatment. Of course, many will say this was an isolated case, a one off. They may be right. But having socialized and interacted over the years with quite a few Police officers of various ranks, and knowing the entrenched and deeply held views many of them had when it came to 'racial issues', i doubt it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/14/police-evidence-muslim-student-rizwaan-sabir

[sauvagecheri]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

[sauvagecheri]

Don't worry, the muslims are not going to convert everyone to Islam! Where did you get that idea?!

The disaffected youth are not just muslims (or immigrants); they are just a group of (generally) quite poor kids (of various ethnicities and religious faiths).

From my experience as an employee and employer (in the UK) your statement that they "are ill-equipped to hold jobs because of lack of skills, language skills, dress and generally have huge attitude problem" applies much more to young Brits than it does to immigrants.

It is clear you are living in fear of muslims / immigrants, which is a little bit sad, but I am scared of snakes (which is just as an irrational) and my wife is scared of ghosts (which is even more irrational) so "up to you".

It is obvious that "everyone" will not become converted furthermore,I am not "Afraid " either ,of muslims or immigrants ,I am an immigrant myself ,

Where did I get the idea ?

From reading from the texts and manuals that deal with the subject ,coran,hadiths,sunnah,sharia law etc ..and informing myself extensively on news articles books and blogs and life experience traveling in India ,America and Asia ,if you have not done so yourself ,you have no idea of what it is about .

I am only presenting the concept that some forces are at work to systematically further ideological agendas ...that are not favorable to Western way of life and its principles .that are being enforced by means of terrorism ,which is another word for psychoiogical warfare ..a vey effective tool indeed .

Terrorism is a tool to keep us folks in line .This forum is dealing with this subject ....Uk: Birmingham Terror Suspects Accused Of Manufacturing Explosives,

Terrorist acts are calculated to produce an effect ,they are not simply random events ,they come from somewhere ...an ideology perhaps get my point ?,It also happens that an inordinate percentage of those acts are usually performed by certain people that will remain unnamed ,people we have invited in our midst .perhaps it is a coincidence perhaps not .

I know I have to choose my words very carefully here as I have been seen as "Politically incorrect " and my posts deleted as soon as some keywords appear .

If you are so inclined just fill in the blanks .

The agenda is simply put " Conquest and looting of the West " A la ancient Rome "Remember Rome ?Remember the Byzantine Empire ?

Ok..now close your eyes and think " British Empire " "American Empire " et voila ! You have the answer now as to my baffling posts .

I hope I will not be told to stay in topic again ..See the relationship ..:Terrorism .....felt as " Terror " and submission to the terror ?Its cheap its effective ,it works !

[geriatrickid]

In any case, even if the muslim / islamic faith was a major cause of terrorism, we cannot deny people their religious beliefs (or discriminate against people on the basis of their religious beliefs), as that would be unfair to the vast majority of moderates, and would certainly spur terrorism to become a much more significant issue than it is today.

Really? So you would allow a mosque which preaches hatred and violence to remain open? Let me put it another way, The Church of the Aryan Nation was a registered religion. It engaged in what many people described as the preaching of hate and the encouragement of violence. In the USA, a place where religious groups have constitutional guarantees and where the courts have always acted to protect freedom of religious belief, the government and private interest groups were able to target and limit the Church's activities. If a similar "religious" group was active in the UK, or Australia, it is expected that measures would be taken to contain that group as well. Yet, when it comes to Islam, everyone walks on eggshells. it is no secret that Islamic affiliated terrorists in the UK are recruited at the mosque. It is where they network and are often incited and encouraged by some fire breathing Imam. Why is it no one at these mosques speaks up and denounces the Imams in the community or to the authorities? It seems to me, that one of the structural factors for Islamic based terrorism is anchored at some of the mosques. Why then is no action taken to close these mosques or to contain the Imams that encourage violence and that preach hate? Surely, you can appreciate that if the mosques adopted a more constructive role they could serve as agents of peace and as a calming influence. If one looks at the troubles in Northern Ireland, one sees that organized religion in most cases came down on the side of peace. Both the Protestant and RC church hierarchy was asking its followers for restraint during the most hostile times in the dark days of the dispute. In the USA, when people were promoting civil rights in the 1950's and 1960's, many of the religious groups were active in promoting peaceful change. When the collection of clergy accompanied Rev. King on his march, they sang hymns and prayed for peace. One of the most moving speeches I have heard is Rev. King's "I Have A Dream" speech. It's powerful in its undercurrent of love, of peace and of justice. When have you ever seen or heard an Imam in the UK give a similar speech? Some people refer to the origins of the 3 faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Well, sorry, Christianity and Judaism are distinguished by their ability to change and to question. Islam does not allow for change or questioning and therein lies why your application of a Judeo-Christian principle on Islam fails. A tenet of Judaism is to ask questions, It is also incorporated into Buddhism. Today, even the moribound RC church allows discussion of the faith. UK muslims like the 6 arrested in this terrorist plot are products of a religious structure that allows no questioning of the "faith" and that insists upon a set of rules that has not changed in centuries.

Organizations and groups that preach or otherwise encourage violence against institutions and acts such as the morally correct laws established by a Parliament or a Congress, or an Assembly, set up with the will of the people in a democratic nation, forsake their right of religious protection.

[sauvagecheri]

Thank you so much for your post .and for saying it better than I can .

Organizations and groups that preach or otherwise encourage violence against institutions and acts such as the morally correct laws established by a Parliament or a Congress, or an Assembly, set up with the will of the people in a democratic nation, forsake their right of religious protection.

And books that preach and advocate openly religious intolerance ,murder ,slavery,unusual and cruel punishments ,mistreatment and unequality of women,sex with small children ,etc etc ..need to be banned .

[sauvagecheri]

Yet, when it comes to Islam, everyone walks on eggshells. it is no secret that Islamic affiliated terrorists in the UK are recruited at the mosque. It is where they network and are often incited and encouraged by some fire breathing Imam. Why is it no one at these mosques speaks up and denounces the Imams in the community or to the authorities? It seems to me, that one of the structural factors for Islamic based terrorism is anchored at some of the mosques. Why then is no action taken to close these mosques or to contain the Imams that encourage violence and that preach hate? Surely, you can appreciate that if the mosques adopted a more constructive role they could serve as agents of peace and as a calming influence.

Because they are all afraid ! ,that is why ..the punishment is severe for any deviation or criticism ,,conform is the norm ,submission is mandatory ...in other words TERROR and fear reigns .

Even we ..non believers feel it newspapers editors feel it ,newscasters feel it ,the police ,even the military feels it whether we realise it or not everyone feels it .

It is a very courageous person who dares confront this kind of evil..

Edmund Burke, When Good Men Do Nothing, The Triumph Of Evil

www.padfield.com/1997/goodmen.html -

Stand up and be counted, speak up against evil and speak out against evil men ... "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. .... and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another" (Gal.

Edited July 15, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[brit1984]

The vast majority of muslims do not hate non-muslims and are not violent (or at least no more so than non-muslims).

There are laws forbidding incitement of hatred and violence (regardless of whether there is a religious context involved).

Extremist islamic preachers (or in fact preachers of any other religion faith) are not exempt from these laws.

Closing down all mosques would not stop terrorism but would actually promote terrorism (and make it less visible).

The existing counter terrorism strategy (of the UK police and justice system) is working well and should continue.

Edited July 15, 2012 by brit1984

[endure]

I met an extreme Muslim yesterday. He runs five filling stations under franchise from a major oil company. The oil company told him that it's their intention to start selling alcohol in the shops attached to the filling stations soon. He told them that they'd need to find new franchisees as his religion forbids him from selling alcohol. When I asked what he was going to do he said it was no problem as he'd start another business. He's the kind of person we need in the UK. He has principles which he doesn't force onto others and he provides employment too.

[sauvagecheri]

The vast majority of muslims do not hate non-muslims and are not violent (or at least no more so than non-muslims).

There are laws forbidding incitement of hatred and violence (regardless of whether there is a religious context involved).

Extremist islamic preachers (or in fact preachers of any other religion faith) are not exempt from these laws.

Closing down all mosques would not stop terrorism but would actually promote terrorism (and make it less visible).

The existing counter terrorism strategy (of the UK police and justice system) is working well and should continue.

I totally agree with you on the point that not all people are haters ..of course .

However I cannot understand why ,our governments are allowing people from other countries to come in great masses and litterally occcupy cities or large parts of them ,what is the purpose of this ?

When you artificially import people from foreign cultures and support them at our own expenses ,with funds we do not have ,and when they are to compete with the native population for unexisting jobs ,and welfare programs not designed for such purpose ,you definetely create a problem.

Also large numbers of people from foreign nations with totally different customs and ways of life , that are not assimilating in their host country create antagonistic groups that have no loyalty to the host country and tend to become hostile in order to preserve what they perceive a loss of their culture

There are also questions of foreign nations whose interest is to foment troubles in the West for their own purposes and are using those folks as tools ..

What a tangled web we weave ....!

Edited July 16, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[brit1984]

Most importantly, we need immigrants to do jobs that many British people are unwilling to do (e.g. low-skilled jobs in London). Also, immigrants are often need to fill skills or talent gaps in higher-level jobs (e.g. doctors and nurses in the NHS).

More generally, immigration boosts economic productivity by bringing in workers that are generally very motivated, hardworking, flexible to do various types of jobs and mobile to move to find employment opportunities.

While completely uncontrolled or unplanned immigration can obviously have negative side-effects (for the economy and society more generally) the government has to find a balance (and is currently doing a good job).

We shouldn't forget that the UK is a country of immigrants and a constant flow of immigrants with new ideas and perspectives has historically had an immeasurable positive effect in helping us to become a successful (and culturally diverse) country.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[sauvagecheri]

Most importantly, we need immigrants to do jobs that many British people are unwilling to do (e.g. low-skilled jobs in London). Also, immigrants are often need to fill skills or talent gaps in higher-level jobs (e.g. doctors and nurses in the NHS).

More generally, immigration boosts economic productivity by bringing in workers that are generally very motivated, hardworking, flexible to do various types of jobs and mobile to move to find employment opportunities.

While completely uncontrolled or unplanned immigration can obviously have negative side-effects (for the economy and society more generally) the government has to find a balance (and is currently doing a good job).

We shouldn't forget that the UK is a country of immigrants and a constant flow of immigrants with new ideas and perspectives has historically had an immeasurable positive effect in helping us to become a successful (and culturally diverse) country.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

That is not what I see ,I assue you are what is called a multiculturalist ,which is ok as long as it does not get ridiculous .

I am not sure in what world or planet you are living ,I would assume you are not living in those places .

I think it has gone out of control ,hence you have a very disgruntled autochtone population in many countries of Europe especially where we find such outrageously large concentrations of unemployed and non producing welfare supported denizens who's only real production is more children that will themselves wind up causing more social unrest and tear even more at the fabric of our society .\The writing is on the wall some people can read it some cannot Too bad

Edited July 16, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[simple1]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

If you can see where I was coming from why are you changing the subject? BTW I live in Pattaya, in a predominantly Muslim area. I personally interact with Muslims every day, so probably have a better understanding than you of Muslim culture and attitudes. You have made a number of assumptions about my background that are incorrect. I travel on an Australian passport in which I have a visa for living in Thailand. I do not live off a pension, but my savings.

Your sweeping statements on the cost of living being impacted by immigrants are not accurate. Western countries that have an immigrant population, actually have a surplus inflow of taxes from immigrants, after social security, healthcare costs etc.

[Scott]

This topic is getting entirely too personal and entirely too far off-topic.

I suggest you re-read the OP and respond according to the topic.

[sauvagecheri]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

If you can see where I was coming from why are you changing the subject? BTW I live in Pattaya, in a predominantly Muslim area. I personally interact with Muslims every day, so probably have a better understanding than you of Muslim culture and attitudes. You have made a number of assumptions about my background that are incorrect. I travel on an Australian passport in which I have a visa for living in Thailand. I do not live off a pension, but my savings.

Your sweeping statements on the cost of living being impacted by immigrants are not accurate. Western countries that have an immigrant population, actually have a surplus inflow of taxes from immigrants, after social security, healthcare costs etc.

That is interesting ,do you have data to support this ?

Can you back up your statements ?

You are painting such a rosy picture ! Where is that knowledsge coming from ? I am asking a serious question and not trying to deride you .

Unfortunately we see what we are able to see acccording to our bias, beliefs and experiences ,are our governments telling us the truth ?

Statistics are being widely manipulated to explain just about anything to cover our leaders screw ups,see 2008 and after .

I wish what you are saying is true .And why are so many people upset with those marvelous demographic changes ,and why are our economies so ailing in western countries ?

Why is the Euro dropping like a stone ?What ever happened to the pound ?Just a few years ago a pound was hmm 70 80 Bahts was it not ?The Euro was 50 Bahts

Why are we running bigger deficits year after year and filling the gaps with more and more borrowed money we have no idea how to repay ? ,

Just to be able to keep up with the entitlement programs designed to buy votes for the socialist block ?How do you explain these deficits ? Come on guy !

You say you are living off your savings ,well ,they probably lost quite a bit in value if they are in Euros just a few weeks ago ,lets import a few more millions immigrants ,that will take care of things ! LOL And bring tax income in our sick economies so we can bring in more immigrants that can be elected ,infiltrate our governments and make it possible to bring in even more millions ,See where this is going ?Or am I imagining things ?

Guys you are losing your countries !Because you gave them away ...kind of dumb no ?Why ?Why do we Westerners have to be so stupid ?Too much football ?Hormones in the meat we eat ?Dont want to think too much ?Dont want to work and like cheap labor ?Ahhhhhhh...

Remember the Native Americans where are they now ?Mowed down like dogs in their own country, an abjectly beaten nation ,The Incas ,the Mayas .Destroyed by the conquista ..and ..Rome ,swept away by barbarians ! If the West does not develop a backbone soon this is what is awaiting us ..and we will be ancient history as well .AMEN !

Edited July 16, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[brit1984]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

If you can see where I was coming from why are you changing the subject? BTW I live in Pattaya, in a predominantly Muslim area. I personally interact with Muslims every day, so probably have a better understanding than you of Muslim culture and attitudes. You have made a number of assumptions about my background that are incorrect. I travel on an Australian passport in which I have a visa for living in Thailand. I do not live off a pension, but my savings.

Your sweeping statements on the cost of living being impacted by immigrants are not accurate. Western countries that have an immigrant population, actually have a surplus inflow of taxes from immigrants, after social security, healthcare costs etc.

That is interesting ,do you have data to support this ?

Can you back up your statements ?

You are painting such a rosy picture ! Where is that knowledsge coming from ? I am asking a serious question and not trying to deride you .

Unfortunately we see what we are able to see acccording to our bias, beliefs and experiences ,are our governments telling us the truth ?

Statistics are being widely manipulated to explain just about anything to cover our leaders screw ups,see 2008 and after .

I wish what you are saying is true .And why are so many people upset with those marvelous demographic changes ,and why are our economies so ailing in western countries ?

Why is the Euro dropping like a stone ?What ever happened to the pound ?Just a few years ago a pound was hmm 70 80 Bahts was it not ?The Euro was 50 Bahts

Why are we running bigger deficits year after year and filling the gaps with more and more borrowed money we have no idea how to repay ? ,

Just to be able to keep up with the entitlement programs designed to buy votes for the socialist block ?How do you explain these deficits ? Come on guy !

You say you are living off your savings ,well ,they probably lost quite a bit in value if they are in Euros just a few weeks ago ,lets import a few more millions immigrants ,that will take care of things ! LOL And bring tax income in our sick economies so we can bring in more immigrants that can be elected ,infiltrate our governments and make it possible to bring in even more millions ,See where this is going ?Or am I imagining things ?

Guys you are losing your countries !Because you gave them away ...kind of dumb no ?Why ?Why do we Westerners have to be so stupid ?Too much football ?Hormones in the meat we eat ?Dont want to think too much ?Dont want to work and like cheap labor ?Ahhhhhhh...

Remember the Native Americans where are they now ?Mowed down like dogs in their own country, an abjectly beaten nation ,The Incas ,the Mayas .Destroyed by the conquista ..and ..Rome ,swept away by barbarians ! If the West does not develop a backbone soon this is what is awaiting us ..and we will be ancient history as well .AMEN !

Regardless of whether we have backbones or not, we will all be ancient history one day.

I am afraid you asked so many questions in that post that I couldn't understand your point.

What problem are you trying to describe and what is the solution that you are proposing?

[simple1]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

If you can see where I was coming from why are you changing the subject? BTW I live in Pattaya, in a predominantly Muslim area. I personally interact with Muslims every day, so probably have a better understanding than you of Muslim culture and attitudes. You have made a number of assumptions about my background that are incorrect. I travel on an Australian passport in which I have a visa for living in Thailand. I do not live off a pension, but my savings.

Your sweeping statements on the cost of living being impacted by immigrants are not accurate. Western countries that have an immigrant population, actually have a surplus inflow of taxes from immigrants, after social security, healthcare costs etc.

That is interesting ,do you have data to support this ?

Can you back up your statements ?

You are painting such a rosy picture ! Where is that knowledsge coming from ? I am asking a serious question and not trying to deride you .

Unfortunately we see what we are able to see acccording to our bias, beliefs and experiences ,are our governments telling us the truth ?

Statistics are being widely manipulated to explain just about anything to cover our leaders screw ups,see 2008 and after .

I wish what you are saying is true .And why are so many people upset with those marvelous demographic changes ,and why are our economies so ailing in western countries ?

Why is the Euro dropping like a stone ?What ever happened to the pound ?Just a few years ago a pound was hmm 70 80 Bahts was it not ?The Euro was 50 Bahts

Why are we running bigger deficits year after year and filling the gaps with more and more borrowed money we have no idea how to repay ? ,

Just to be able to keep up with the entitlement programs designed to buy votes for the socialist block ?How do you explain these deficits ? Come on guy !

You say you are living off your savings ,well ,they probably lost quite a bit in value if they are in Euros just a few weeks ago ,lets import a few more millions immigrants ,that will take care of things ! LOL And bring tax income in our sick economies so we can bring in more immigrants that can be elected ,infiltrate our governments and make it possible to bring in even more millions ,See where this is going ?Or am I imagining things ?

Guys you are losing your countries !Because you gave them away ...kind of dumb no ?Why ?Why do we Westerners have to be so stupid ?Too much football ?Hormones in the meat we eat ?Dont want to think too much ?Dont want to work and like cheap labor ?Ahhhhhhh...

Remember the Native Americans where are they now ?Mowed down like dogs in their own country, an abjectly beaten nation ,The Incas ,the Mayas .Destroyed by the conquista ..and ..Rome ,swept away by barbarians ! If the West does not develop a backbone soon this is what is awaiting us ..and we will be ancient history as well .AMEN !

There is no point in posting a response to your query as you have already admitted in the above post that you will dismiss the content if coming from government sources. Regards the rest of your post cannot answer as I am not a economist, nor a foreign exchange dealer.

[Scott]

There is an entire sub-forum dedicated to jobs, economy, banking and business.

[sauvagecheri]

Here's to Simple one Maybe this can help .

Regardless of whether we have backbones or not, we will all be ancient history one day.

I am afraid you asked so many questions in that post that I couldn't understand your point.

What problem are you trying to describe and what is the solution that you are proposing?

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/11/toward-sustainable-immigration-policy.html

[sauvagecheri]

@sauvagecheri - you're at it again quoting from committed anti Muslim websites such as www.danielpipes.org. Also using Indian films is not referencing independent sources. Enough of your nonsense

Ok Simple one .Nonsense ?.hmmm hmmm I can see where you are coming from ,so lets open the borders wide and allow all who wish to partake of our generous welfare and pension plans ,let them overtake entire neighborhoods(Hopefully not yours ) and disrupt the live of the locals ,until they feel as complete strangers in their own countries ,after all we can always borrow more money from the Chinese to pay for it all,so when your cherished pound is finally devaluated to 30 bahts to the pound or less and it costs 20 pounds to buy a hamburger,when your pension gets reduced by more taxes and galloping inflation ,when you see these folks having 6 ,7 and more children (Many of whom basically are being raised to hate your guts) all on the dole paid straight out of your savings and mine,, well it may jolly well be too late to do anything about it , what will you say then ?

If you can see where I was coming from why are you changing the subject? BTW I live in Pattaya, in a predominantly Muslim area. I personally interact with Muslims every day, so probably have a better understanding than you of Muslim culture and attitudes. You have made a number of assumptions about my background that are incorrect. I travel on an Australian passport in which I have a visa for living in Thailand. I do not live off a pension, but my savings.

Your sweeping statements on the cost of living being impacted by immigrants are not accurate. Western countries that have an immigrant population, actually have a surplus inflow of taxes from immigrants, after social security, healthcare costs etc.

Toward a Sustainable Immigration Policy

While the rising threat of terrorism, violence and honor killings produced by Muslim immigration tends to be in the news lately, the problems produced by immigration are not limited solely to Islam. The problem of Muslim immigration was created by a larger trend in First World immigration policies that favors bringing in cheap labor for short term commercial and political gain. Such immigration policies however are seriously damaging to the nations that utilize them and cannot be sustained. So what we must do is look for a sustainable immigration policy.

The first principle we need to begin with is that immigration should be in a nation's interest. While this seems self-evident, it is a principle that has gone by the wayside. For a clear example of what that leads to, consider Obama's move to allow people infected with AIDS to freely enter the United States. Clearly the entry of people with a deadly communicable disease for which there is no cure into the United States is not in our interest. It is actually quite dangerous to us and offers us no benefits whatsoever to outweigh the risks. There are numerous examples in our immigration policy are less graphic but ultimately just as destructive.

Beginning with the principle that immigration must be in the nation's interest, we now need a standard for measuring whether a particular form of immigration is in our interest or not.

The ideal form of immigration is one that benefits both the host country and the immigrants themselves. Immigration that benefits only the host country is slavery. Immigration that benefits only the immigrants is parasitism. The ideal is a mutual exchange of benefits between the immigrants and their new country. And we can begin by measuring that exchange through simple statistics by breaking down the impact of a particular immigration population in simple dollar terms.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/11/toward-sustainable-immigration-policy.html

[Steely Dan]

what you have posted is just common sense, however you are dealing with what is known by psychiatrists as a displacement reaction. For many it feels safer to stand against a minor threat, in this case the EDL in order to shut out any consideration of a far larger threat, radical Islam. The more they are reminded of the latter the more untenable this feels so it is better to use any and every tactic to deflect discussion away from the larger threat to avoid their own heads exploding.

Meanwhile the UK authorities hardly inspire confidence they are on top of things.

http://www.dailymail...-G4S-costs.html

Two Pakistani illegal immigrants were hired to be part of the security team hired to lockdown Olympic venues to prevent terror attacks.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Steely Dan

[folium]

And a delightful story it is to and just goes to show that you spend far too much time on the websites you love to quote.

The terrorist threat posed by Irish nationalists in mainland UK was aided and funded by Irish immigrants in Britain (including families such as that of the "leader's" of the EDL.

Fighting PIRA would not have been helped by turning against the hundreds of thousands of uninvolved Irish immigrants to the UK.

Turning the terrorist threat posed by a few Muslim Brits into an excuse to push an anti-immigration agenda is simply laughable, as is the bizarre notion that the Muslims are going to take over western nations. As previously discussed ad nauseum on this forum this lacks any demographic, economic, political or rational credence.

While your beloved Gates of Vienna et al are cheerleaders for some form of Huntington clash of civilizations, ironically that is exactly what the terrorists in tho OP seek to engender. Too weak to bring down the state the aim is an asymmetric strategy designed to provoke an over reaction by the authorities which acts as recruiting sergeant for the terrorists and supports their agenda of struggling against oppression etc etc.

Also as the OP underlines Islamist terrorism has been spectacularly unsuccessful to date with the Spanish train bombing and the 7/7 attack in London being their main "successes". Compared to PIRA they are pathetically inept.

Throwing the baby put with the bathwater is never sensible and immigration remains as it always has been a key driver of national success in almost every respect. Sure it needs to be managed like any other policy, but have a read of this;

http://www.economist.com/node/21557524

and if you have an interest in the fulcrum of much of today's issues Simon Sebag Montefiore's "Jerusalem - a Biography" is a brilliant and eye opening read.

[folium]

what you have posted is just common sense, however you are dealing with what is known by psychiatrists as a displacement reaction. For many it feels safer to stand against a minor

threat, in this case the EDL in order to shut out

any consideration of a far larger threat, radical

Islam. The more they are reminded of the latter

the more untenable this feels so it is better to

use any and every tactic to deflect discussion

away from the larger threat to avoid their own

heads exploding.

Meanwhile the UK authorities hardly inspire

confidence they are on top of things.

[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-

2175492/London-2012-Olympics-security-crisis-

Cameron-vows-G4S-

your eyes.

Two Pakistani illegal immigrants were hired to be part of the security team hired to lockdown Olympic venues to prevent terror attacks.

Cheap shot re G4S but a classic leap from a couple of illegal immigrants morphing into potential security threats, at least in your eyes.

If all foreigners residing outside their own countries on dubious immigration statuses are security threats the USA and Thailand would have imploded by now.

Anyway classic agenda driven story by the Daily Mail swallowed by those who want to make this connection.

Edited July 20, 2012 by folium

[Scott]

A long post which is nothing more than an anti-Islam rant has been deleted. Continue with it and suspensions will follow.

[simple1]

And a delightful story it is to and just goes to show that you spend far too much time on the websites you love to quote.

The terrorist threat posed by Irish nationalists in mainland UK was aided and funded by Irish immigrants in Britain (including families such as that of the "leader's" of the EDL.

Fighting PIRA would not have been helped by turning against the hundreds of thousands of uninvolved Irish immigrants to the UK.

Turning the terrorist threat posed by a few Muslim Brits into an excuse to push an anti-immigration agenda is simply laughable, as is the bizarre notion that the Muslims are going to take over western nations. As previously discussed ad nauseam on this forum this lacks any demographic, economic, political or rational credence.

While your beloved Gates of Vienna et al are cheerleaders for some form of Huntington clash of civilizations, ironically that is exactly what the terrorists in tho OP seek to engender. Too weak to bring down the state the aim is an asymmetric strategy designed to provoke an over reaction by the authorities which acts as recruiting sergeant for the terrorists and supports their agenda of struggling against oppression etc etc.

Also as the OP underlines Islamist terrorism has been spectacularly unsuccessful to date with the Spanish train bombing and the 7/7 attack in London being their main "successes". Compared to PIRA they are pathetically inept.

Throwing the baby put with the bathwater is never sensible and immigration remains as it always has been a key driver of national success in almost every respect. Sure it needs to be managed like any other policy, but have a read of this;

http://www.economist.com/node/21557524

and if you have an interest in the fulcrum of much of today's issues Simon Sebag Montefiore's "Jerusalem - a Biography" is a brilliant and eye opening read.

An articulate and reasoned response that will be completely ignored by those with an anti Islamic agenda

[Scott]

There is a whole forum for economics:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/13-jobs-economy-banking-business-investments/

Off-topic post deleted.

[Steely Dan]

Cheap shot re G4S but a classic leap from a couple of illegal immigrants morphing into potential security threats, at least in your eyes.

If all foreigners residing outside their own countries on dubious immigration statuses are security threats the USA and Thailand would have imploded by now.

Anyway classic agenda driven story by the Daily Mail swallowed by those who want to make this connection.

I wonder whether you would take the same view if baggage handlers dealing with your flight were illegal immigrants coming from a Country with well documented problems with radical Islam. But as is usually the case out of sight out of mind unless you happen to live on a culturally enriched sink estate.

P.S Your beloved center-left press has an agenda too, namely denying or downplaying the largest threat to western democracy since the Nazis whilst focusing on a synthetic set menu of excuses or denials for the mess we are in.