Constitution Court Acted Outside Its Powers, Says Nitirat

[nurofiend]

More of a problem is the middle management upo an comers using age old shylockian methods to keep the poor poor as they profit and try to move up the status chain.

Those at the very top aren't going to fall and suddenly create a well spring of general wealth. But if someone puts the hammer down on the greedy middlemen, the poor will have a bigger percentage of what they work for, and not the lions share going to the middle men.

well that's true too but the 'system' encourages wanting to 'get there' and get their noses in the trough. India is the same - I worked there for a year and all they wanted to do was get up the ladder so they could 'relax' and rake it in. They called them 'Babu's'. But here there are a few who REALLY rake it in and own almost everything thereby encouraging this culture of 'middlemen' who add on % after % it's a bit like a nightmare MLM scheme

Well that is a social Kow Tow issue and not exclusive to Thailand.

What is is that no one top down has stopped the excesses,

because so many in the middle benefit and send their cuts upward to curry favor.

Like an old feudal fashion court. and as typical new and old courtiers use what

ever dirty tricks that can to raise their station. But it is worse in a Kow Tow society.

In capitalist Democracies we call it Keeping Up With The Jones

or nouveau riche social climbing.

In Kow Tow it is trying to step on your best friend to curry favor,

and anyone below is just a stone to step on to climb higher.

But not just the greedy few, but all, because it is cultural.

In most places only the truly greedy few are this bad.

"What is is that no one top down has stopped the excesses,

because so many in the middle benefit and send their cuts upward to curry favor"

that's not exclusive to thailand either, corruption seeps from the top right down to the bottom.

[philw]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I would like to know the TV "Red Shirtinistas" think about this behavior?

They obviously feel strongly about something.............

What is your problem with their action ??

Signed, philw, a person rather than a "Red Shirtinista"

What is a "Red Shirtinista", by the way ????

Over to you.

[Yunla]

Exellent post!

Thankyou!

[nurofiend]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I would like to know the TV "Red Shirtinistas" think about this behavior?

They obviously feel strongly about something.............

What is your problem with their action ??

Signed, philw, a person rather than a "Red Shirtinista"

What is a "Red Shirtinista", by the way ????

Over to you.

a red shirtinista is anyone who doesn't hype up thaksin to be the devil incarnate...

[philw]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I would like to know the TV "Red Shirtinistas" think about this behavior?

They obviously feel strongly about something.............

What is your problem with their action ??

Signed, philw, a person rather than a "Red Shirtinista"

What is a "Red Shirtinista", by the way ????

Over to you.

a red shirtinista is anyone who doesn't hype up thaksin to be the devil incarnate...

I thought my ex mother in law was the devil incarnate, bless her little socks..........

To answer my own question, though, perhaps they don't like judicial interference in Parliamentary procedure.

Frankly, I agree with them.

[nurofiend]

I thought my ex mother in law was the devil incarnate, bless her little socks..........

To answer my own question, though, perhaps they don't like judicial interference in Parliamentary procedure.

Frankly, I agree with them.

also, it's not unusual for protesters to burn effigies... in say, pretty much every country in the world.

but when these guy's do it... it MUST mean they actually want to murder them.

they will sacrifice them to the horned god thaksin.

Edited July 19, 2012 by nurofiend

[animatic]

But what most hurts the poor is the middle men taking the lions share,

and using some of it to keep the public control chain running.

A spider web of deceits and abuses of the poor with assorted regional players selling their accrued power network to the bidder of the moment that moves them the farthest in the moment. But all on the backs of the poorest least educated workers. The sop of apparent grass roots organization is just a facade for the control mechanism behind it.

[binjalin]

I ask you to RETRACT that I support Thaksin or Yingluck OR point to any post where I have declared any such support - EVER. I do not support PTP either - show me where I have EVER stated that? or apologize. I am against corruption and materialism from wherever it shows it's ugly face.

A quick review back of a selection of your posts in the political forum and even the blind would see your staunch support and defence of the "Shin camp". I'd happily post a long list of your quotes that blatantly demonstrate this fact, were those quotes not taking us off-topic. It's all there in the search function for anyone with the time and inclination.

go ahead dude - show us where I have ever stated my support for Thaksin - go for it

PS while you're at it show the posts where I have been VERY honest and slated the reds - deal? you know - amongst all the drivel on here I have never, ever heard a yellow EVER say 'well that was a stupid move (from yellows)' but I see constantly clever, intelligent and insightful red posters (there are not many of red sympathizers on here) always being thoughtful and balanced - we get from the 'yellow' camp? 'don't forget the nazi salute when you meet Merkel'

Edited July 19, 2012 by binjalin

[binjalin]

Exellent post!

Thankyou!

[nurofiend]

I ask you to RETRACT that I support Thaksin or Yingluck OR point to any post where I have declared any such support - EVER. I do not support PTP either - show me where I have EVER stated that? or apologize. I am against corruption and materialism from wherever it shows it's ugly face.

A quick review back of a selection of your posts in the political forum and even the blind would see your staunch support and defence of the "Shin camp". I'd happily post a long list of your quotes that blatantly demonstrate this fact, were those quotes not taking us off-topic. It's all there in the search function for anyone with the time and inclination.

go ahead dude - show us where I have ever stated my support for Thaksin - go for it

don't bother with it, rixalex has done the same with me before.

stated with extreme vigure about 'what i posted' without a shred of thought or evidence, it was of course completely in his head.... you're best off ignoring him.

[binjalin]

But what most hurts the poor is the middle men taking the lions share,

and using some of it to keep the public control chain running.

A spider web of deceits and abuses of the poor with assorted regional players selling their accrued power network to the bidder of the moment that moves them the farthest in the moment. But all on the backs of the poorest least educated workers. The sop of apparent grass roots organization is just a facade for the control mechanism behind it.

you miss the obvious - there would not be a grasping 'middle' if there was not a 'take-all' 'top'

[Yunla]

Let's go through it shall we? Russia, China and many other countries generate billions too - and...yes... people (like me and maybe even elite wanna-be's like you) go along and take photos etc. The 'ancient and noble houses' are mostly EMPTY in the UK or owned by the nation - and beautiful they are too we have a very rich and wonderful history - and that's what it is - history.

I'm not elite, I'm from a childrens state-home originally,and I work in disability-rights which is charity and I am not paid for my work. Hardly elitist. That is the last slur you shall make against me, it is also the last of your posts I will be responding to.

You started talking about 'removing the amart' which sounded a lot like redmob speeches in 2010 about 'the elites'.

I replied by really saying that in order to have progress in society it is not necessary to remove the elites. I gave examples of successful societies (UK and Sweden) where the elites had been maintained and had even been used as a tourist asset.

You replied that we can go to China and USSR and take photos. That implies that their removal of their elites had no negative consequences, compared to UK or Sweden who kept their elites and skipped the bloody communist dictatorship era out entirely.

You are aware that China, shortly after they removed their elites, they killed over 70 million Chinese. You are aware that in China today, there are slave-camps where people are worked to death, and their organs are cut out of their living body and sold to rich foreigners. Their crimes - opposing the state. You should go take some tourist photos there.

Or Russia, your other example of a nation that benefitted from removing the elites. Shortly after they removed their elites, Stalin's gang killed 20 million people.

I hope you see why my examples of modern constitutional-monarchy / parliamentary democracies where they kept their elites, and didn't kill 90 million people, are more desireable than the examples you offered as positive examples of purging the elites.

Why this is actually relevant, is that those nations where 90 million people were murdered, those were nations where "elites" were purged, and Constitutions were not protected by any independent judiciary. In those genocidal states, the only courts were controlled by the state. When you allow the state to write the constitution, and not under the control of the people by public referendum, what you can get is totalitarianism. That is why Constitution Courts, judges and other legal failsafes are very important to safeguard democracy, to protect it from dictators and organised crime interests.

Why Nitirat is wrong is that they take the CC out of context of the shambolic corruption that is entrenched in Thailand, the CC are here for a purpose, they are answerable to the institution of democracy itself, not to PTP or DP and certainly not to some very dubious 'professors'. Really what it boils down to is safeguarding a stable society. The redshirts were threatening civil war a few days ago, but I would hope that we put our collective faith in democratic failsafes like the constitution court and the supreme court, as opposed to the people who want to subvert democracy or engage in street warfare for their own undemocratic agendas.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yunla

[tlansford]

- deleted due to quote limits -

I think you will find that the PTP and red shirts are very interested in keeping the north and north east in the feudal past, because that makes the people easier to control.

T

hat is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

do you have a stitch of evidence, even just a grain of information, anything at all ... I mean aaaaannnnnnyyyyything - at all - to support the bile you just puked out onto the forum?

Nice try, no sale,

it's every where, do your own homework.

I did not expect you to have anything. And to be clear, it is not me doing the selling.

But you are selling (or perhaps dumping) a load of crock on the forum. So it is not up to me to do homework here - but I'll help out anyway. Let's have a look at this little gem of yours...

Issue #1

"That is the basis of their control mechanism"

- The PTP and UDD were mentioned and then you state 'they' - who are 'they'? Someone specific? Examples? Left up to the reader's imagination, I am guessing.

Issue #2

- feel free to describe this control mechanism. Tell us how this is working today. Go ahead, find an example. Toss us a bone. And as "they" seem to be any and all of the PTP and UDD, who are "they" controlling with this control mechanism?

Issue #3

What is the "old world feudal structure" that the now-specified "they" in Issue 1 are using ? What exactly makes it feudal? Tell us what that looks like to you...

Issue #4

Trappings of democracy and socialist uprising ... Please let us all know which parts are just the trappings. Are the calls for elections trappings or is winning an election trappings? Is a new minimum wage part of trappings? Do you have completely other trappings in mind or is this, too, just up to the imagination of the reader?

Issue #5

Your "main worry" ... that "Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect."

Wow, ... really, when does the film hit the theaters? Will it be in 3D? The evil, deposed dictator dies and his decapitated "machine" thrashes and crashes out of control and tens of thousands of people die horrible deaths - maybe they are gassed in the showers or succumb to the cold season in the barren, war-stricken desolate fields outside Chiang Moscow in Northern Thailand??

I really can't even seriously ask you to provide a basis for this speculation, but wish you luck getting a signing bonus for the film.

So you see, Animatic, I think it is me who is saying "no sale" to your little pearls of wisdom...

[metisdead]

I would like to remind people to please stick to the topic.

[nurofiend]

Wow, ... really, when does the film hit the theaters? Will it be in 3D? The evil, deposed dictator dies and his decapitated "machine" thrashes and crashes out of control and tens of thousands of people die horrible deaths - maybe they are gassed in the showers or succumb to the cold season in the barren, war-stricken desolate fields outside Chiang Moscow in Northern Thailand??

[Noistar]

Let's go through it shall we? Russia, China and many other countries generate billions too - and...yes... people (like me and maybe even elite wanna-be's like you) go along and take photos etc. The 'ancient and noble houses' are mostly EMPTY in the UK or owned by the nation - and beautiful they are too we have a very rich and wonderful history - and that's what it is - history.

I'm not elite, I'm from a childrens state-home originally,and I work in disability-rights which is charity and I am not paid for my work. Hardly elitist. That is the last slur you shall make against me, it is also the last of your posts I will be responding to.

You started talking about 'removing the amart' which sounded a lot like redmob speeches in 2010 about 'the elites'.

I replied by really saying that in order to have progress in society it is not necessary to remove the elites. I gave examples of successful societies (UK and Sweden) where the elites had been maintained and had even been used as a tourist asset.

You replied that we can go to China and USSR and take photos. That implies that their removal of their elites had no negative consequences, compared to UK or Sweden who kept their elites and skipped the bloody communist dictatorship era out entirely.

You are aware that China, shortly after they removed their elites, they killed over 70 million Chinese. You are aware that in China today, there are slave-camps where people are worked to death, and their organs are cut out of their living body and sold to rich foreigners. Their crimes - opposing the state. You should go take some tourist photos there.

Or Russia, your other example of a nation that benefitted from removing the elites. Shortly after they removed their elites, Stalin's gang killed 20 million people.

I hope you see why my examples of modern constitutional-monarchy / parliamentary democracies where they kept their elites, and didn't kill 90 million people, are more desireable than the examples you offered as positive examples of purging the elites.

Why this is actually relevant, is that those nations where 90 million people were murdered, those were nations where "elites" were purged, and Constitutions were not protected by any independent judiciary. In those genocidal states, the only courts were controlled by the state. When you allow the state to write the constitution, and not under the control of the people by public referendum, what you can get is totalitarianism. That is why Constitution Courts, judges and other legal failsafes are very important to safeguard democracy, to protect it from dictators and organised crime interests.

Why Nitirat is wrong is that they take the CC out of context of the shambolic corruption that is entrenched in Thailand, the CC are here for a purpose, they are answerable to the institution of democracy itself, not to PTP or DP and certainly not to some very dubious 'professors'. Really what it boils down to is safeguarding a stable society. The redshirts were threatening civil war a few days ago, but I would hope that we put our collective faith in democratic failsafes like the constitution court and the supreme court, as opposed to the people who want to subvert democracy or engage in street warfare for their own undemocratic agendas.

The question that keeps going through my mind is "is a referendum failsafe?"

There is an on-going theme on TVF (i believe), that votes were bought in the General Election. If that is the case, and the Thai electorate are not able or willing to understand the significance of a change in the Constitution, won't there just be a repeat performance?

Not my problem. Doesn't stop me expressing concerns over Thailand's future as the manipulators steer the ship to where they, rather than the population, want to go.

Who regulates the politicians - the people? If the people vote away their rights to regulate, who regulates the politicians?

I'm sure you (Yunia) would love to have a reaction to a re-election of the respected PM.

It's preferable to not having an election at all

[Yunla]

The question that keeps going through my mind is "is a referendum failsafe?"

There is an on-going theme on TVF (i believe), that votes were bought in the General Election. If that is the case, and the Thai electorate are not able or willing to understand the significance of a change in the Constitution, won't there just be a repeat performance?

Not my problem. Doesn't stop me expressing concerns over Thailand's future as the manipulators steer the ship to where they, rather than the population, want to go.

Who regulates the politicians - the people? If the people vote away their rights to regulate, who regulates the politicians?

I'm sure you (Yunia) would love to have a reaction to a re-election of the respected PM.

It's preferable to not having an election at all

PTP got 38% of the votes on the day. If that was a public referendum on constitution change they would fail the absolute 50+% majority needed.

More so because many people who voted for them were voting for the "lifestyle improvement" and "equality" promises which of course were just a smokescreen and a cruel joke.

Quite how many of those 38% would vote for constitutional reforms would depend on the specific items being reformed. If there is a serious referendum there should be some sort of independent body overseeing it. Either way I think PTP will get trounced in referendum and will probably start burning and killing in a rage when they lose.

[binjalin]

e • d Summary of the 3 July 2011 House of Representatives of Thailand Thai general election results Parties Constituency Proportional TOTAL Votes % Seats Votes % Seats Seats % Pheu Thai 204 15,744,190 48.41 61 265 53.0% Democrat 115 11,433,762 35.15 44 159 31.8%

Edited July 20, 2012 by craigt3365

[craigt3365]

Come on guys, calm down...or a posting holiday will start for some. Remember forum rules:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

[Noistar]

The question that keeps going through my mind is "is a referendum failsafe?"

There is an on-going theme on TVF (i believe), that votes were bought in the General Election. If that is the case, and the Thai electorate are not able or willing to understand the significance of a change in the Constitution, won't there just be a repeat performance?

Not my problem. Doesn't stop me expressing concerns over Thailand's future as the manipulators steer the ship to where they, rather than the population, want to go.

Who regulates the politicians - the people? If the people vote away their rights to regulate, who regulates the politicians?

I'm sure you (Yunia) would love to have a reaction to a re-election of the respected PM.

It's preferable to not having an election at all

PTP got 38% of the votes on the day. If that was a public referendum on constitution change they would fail the absolute 50+% majority needed.

More so because many people who voted for them were voting for the "lifestyle improvement" and "equality" promises which of course were just a smokescreen and a cruel joke.

Quite how many of those 38% would vote for constitutional reforms would depend on the specific items being reformed. If there is a serious referendum there should be some sort of independent body overseeing it. Either way I think PTP will get trounced in referendum and will probably start burning and killing in a rage when they lose.

I cant help comparing the ruling party to a group of children who have now got unrestricted access to a sweet (candy) shop. However, they have found a box which they can't open. The person with the key won't just give it to them. However, they know a man who can either get the key, or at least pick the lock.

Anyway, they think, who is this 'Pandora' who has their name written prominently on the box.

[tlansford]

The question that keeps going through my mind is "is a referendum failsafe?"

There is an on-going theme on TVF (i believe), that votes were bought in the General Election. If that is the case, and the Thai electorate are not able or willing to understand the significance of a change in the Constitution, won't there just be a repeat performance?

Not my problem. Doesn't stop me expressing concerns over Thailand's future as the manipulators steer the ship to where they, rather than the population, want to go.

Who regulates the politicians - the people? If the people vote away their rights to regulate, who regulates the politicians?

I'm sure you (Yunia) would love to have a reaction to a re-election of the respected PM.

It's preferable to not having an election at all

PTP got 38% of the votes on the day. If that was a public referendum on constitution change they would fail the absolute 50+% majority needed.

More so because many people who voted for them were voting for the "lifestyle improvement" and "equality" promises which of course were just a smokescreen and a cruel joke.

Quite how many of those 38% would vote for constitutional reforms would depend on the specific items being reformed. If there is a serious referendum there should be some sort of independent body overseeing it. Either way I think PTP will get trounced in referendum and will probably start burning and killing in a rage when they lose.

PT 53

[rixalex]

A quick review back of a selection of your posts in the political forum and even the blind would see your staunch support and defence of the "Shin camp". I'd happily post a long list of your quotes that blatantly demonstrate this fact, were those quotes not taking us off-topic. It's all there in the search function for anyone with the time and inclination.

go ahead dude - show us where I have ever stated my support for Thaksin - go for it

I already explained in the above why i will not post a list on this thread quoting your many posts on other threads that speak out in defence / support of the Shin camp - it would be off topic and thus subject to immediate deletion. PM me if you wish to continue this. Or don't...

[Thaddeus]

http://www.battleships.ru/battlesh/ship/ship.php?id=34962

PT 53, scuppering a country near you.

[Noistar]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

I'm afraid I won't put my life on hold just to please you. If that stops me from being able to post then so be it

My initial homework assignment, given to me by Phiphidon, one of the TVF moderators, to ensure my contributions are valid.

I apologize if any of this is different to Phiphidon's opinions. I hope I can be forgiven for getting things wrong. As I say, I'm new to this.

Nitirat are the group of legal scholars who have proposed that a new constitution be drafted to replace the junta-drafted 2007 Constitution - Nitirats Constitution Draft.

So that I believe is the definition.

I hope Phiphidon will forgive me, but I haven't studied everything in detail. I have gained a flavour for the draft.

The content IMHO, leaves itself wide-open to abuse with the current state of Thai Democracy. If Thailand ever reaches Democratic maturity, it may then be valid and applicable.

Many of the proposals already exist in mature Democracies, and as such can be justified in those Democracies. I am led to believe (sorry I cant quote a specific source - black mark to me), that they also existed in dictatorships (Stalinist Russia). Same element in the Constitution, different implementations.

For instance, what would the cabinet appointing senior military officers achieve? Would they end up being puppets of the ruling party? Sounds good in principle, but IMHO I don't think it would work as intended.

IMO the current cabinet can't be trusted to determine the allocation of posts which facilitate the mechanism of Government. A mechanism which currently allows the ruling party to 'carry on regardless'.

IMO this doesn't bode well for other important elements of Thai Government, being left to them.

I could go through other points, but my honest conclusion is that Thailand isn't ready or equipped to incorporate the proposed changes to the Constitution.

The potential for mis-using the proposed Constitution is staggering IMHO. With the current "we have a majority, so we can do whatever WE want' attitude, who knows where it would end.

IMO, when a Democratic Government can be trusted, with an EFFECTIVE control of any excesses, Thailand might be ready.

Until then, Nitirat should file it away in the "pending" tray, and return to reality.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Noistar

[Skywalker69]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

I'm afraid I won't put my life on hold just to please you. If that stops me from being able to post then so be it

My initial homework assignment, given to me by Phiphidon, one of the TVF moderators, to ensure my contributions are valid.

I apologize if any of this is different to Phiphidon's opinions. I hope I can be forgiven for getting things wrong. As I say, I'm new to this.

Nitirat are the group of legal scholars who have proposed that a new constitution be drafted to replace the junta-drafted 2007 Constitution - Nitirats Constitution Draft.

So that I believe is the definition.

I hope Phiphidon will forgive me, but I haven't studied everything in detail. I have gained a flavour for the draft.

The content IMHO, leaves itself wide-open to abuse with the current state of Thai Democracy. If Thailand ever reaches Democratic maturity, it may then be valid and applicable.

Many of the proposals already exist in mature Democracies, and as such can be justified in those Democracies. I am led to believe (sorry I cant quote a specific source - black mark to me), that they also existed in dictatorships (Stalinist Russia). Same element in the Constitution, different implementations.

For instance, what would the cabinet appointing senior military officers achieve? Would they end up being puppets of the ruling party? Sounds good in principle, but IMHO I don't think it would work as intended.

IMO the current cabinet can't be trusted to determine the allocation of posts which facilitate the mechanism of Government. A mechanism which currently allows the ruling party to 'carry on regardless'.

IMO this doesn't bode well for other important elements of Thai Government, being left to them.

I could go through other points, but my honest conclusion is that Thailand isn't ready or equipped to incorporate the proposed changes to the Constitution.

The potential for mis-using the proposed Constitution is staggering IMHO. With the current "we have a majority, so we can do whatever WE want' attitude, who knows where it would end.

IMO, when a Democratic Government can be trusted, with an EFFECTIVE control of any excesses, Thailand might be ready.

Until then, Nitirat should file it away in the "pending" tray, and return to reality.

Post of the day!!! Thank you for a good laugh.

[Noistar]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

I'm afraid I won't put my life on hold just to please you. If that stops me from being able to post then so be it

My initial homework assignment, given to me by Phiphidon, one of the TVF moderators, to ensure my contributions are valid.

I apologize if any of this is different to Phiphidon's opinions. I hope I can be forgiven for getting things wrong. As I say, I'm new to this.

Nitirat are the group of legal scholars who have proposed that a new constitution be drafted to replace the junta-drafted 2007 Constitution - Nitirats Constitution Draft.

So that I believe is the definition.

I hope Phiphidon will forgive me, but I haven't studied everything in detail. I have gained a flavour for the draft.

The content IMHO, leaves itself wide-open to abuse with the current state of Thai Democracy. If Thailand ever reaches Democratic maturity, it may then be valid and applicable.

Many of the proposals already exist in mature Democracies, and as such can be justified in those Democracies. I am led to believe (sorry I cant quote a specific source - black mark to me), that they also existed in dictatorships (Stalinist Russia). Same element in the Constitution, different implementations.

For instance, what would the cabinet appointing senior military officers achieve? Would they end up being puppets of the ruling party? Sounds good in principle, but IMHO I don't think it would work as intended.

IMO the current cabinet can't be trusted to determine the allocation of posts which facilitate the mechanism of Government. A mechanism which currently allows the ruling party to 'carry on regardless'.

IMO this doesn't bode well for other important elements of Thai Government, being left to them.

I could go through other points, but my honest conclusion is that Thailand isn't ready or equipped to incorporate the proposed changes to the Constitution.

The potential for mis-using the proposed Constitution is staggering IMHO. With the current "we have a majority, so we can do whatever WE want' attitude, who knows where it would end.

IMO, when a Democratic Government can be trusted, with an EFFECTIVE control of any excesses, Thailand might be ready.

Until then, Nitirat should file it away in the "pending" tray, and return to reality.

Post of the day!!! Thank you for a good laugh.

my pleasure

[Moruya]

More of a problem is the middle management upo an comers using age old shylockian methods to keep the poor poor as they profit and try to move up the status chain.

Those at the very top aren't going to fall and suddenly create a well spring of general wealth. But if someone puts the hammer down on the greedy middlemen, the poor will have a bigger percentage of what they work for, and not the lions share going to the middle men.

well that's true too but the 'system' encourages wanting to 'get there' and get their noses in the trough. India is the same - I worked there for a year and all they wanted to do was get up the ladder so they could 'relax' and rake it in. They called them 'Babu's'. But here there are a few who REALLY rake it in and own almost everything thereby encouraging this culture of 'middlemen' who add on % after % it's a bit like a nightmare MLM scheme

Well that is a social Kow Tow issue and not exclusive to Thailand.

What is is that no one top down has stopped the excesses,

because so many in the middle benefit and send their cuts upward to curry favor.

Like an old feudal fashion court. and as typical new and old courtiers use what

ever dirty tricks that can to raise their station. But it is worse in a Kow Tow society.

In capitalist Democracies we call it Keeping Up With The Jones

or nouveau riche social climbing.

In Kow Tow it is trying to step on your best friend to curry favor,

and anyone below is just a stone to step on to climb higher.

But not just the greedy few, but all, because it is cultural.

In most places only the truly greedy few are this bad.

"What is is that no one top down has stopped the excesses,

because so many in the middle benefit and send their cuts upward to curry favor"

that's not exclusive to thailand either, corruption seeps from the top right down to the bottom.

That makes it all OK then

They do it in Zimbabwe so Thailand is fine.

You hear all kinds of intellect on here

[Moruya]

I thought my ex mother in law was the devil incarnate, bless her little socks..........

To answer my own question, though, perhaps they don't like judicial interference in Parliamentary procedure.

Frankly, I agree with them.

also, it's not unusual for protesters to burn effigies... in say, pretty much every country in the world.

but when these guy's do it... it MUST mean they actually want to murder them.

they will sacrifice them to the horned god thaksin.

What primitive world do you come from?

[phiphidon]

Post of the day!!! Thank you for a good laugh.

my pleasure

Thats what skywalkers there for, cheerleading, he has a way with the smilies...............

[rubl]

http://www.battleshi...ip.php?id=34962

PT 53, scuppering a country near you.

Any relation with PT 73 McHale's Navy, or is PT 53 manned by bigger scoundrals ?