Retiring At 32 With $3M Usd

[MrRealDeal]

For those of you saying it's not a good plan etc, it's a perfectly valid plan, based on their priorities. They know that they have enough money to sustain them indefinitely in Thailand, and in many other parts of the world too, and they want to enjoy the fruits of their labours. Lifestyle is often the most important thing.

I would however suggest this to the OP (Although having a successful business, I'm sure that they'll have thought of many of these already lol):

1/ Be conservative with your income, set a minimum amount to save/reinvest every money. Because even though you have enough now, you have a long future to look forward to, and you may wish to return to Australia at some point, or another equally expensive country, in the future. You'll want a good education for your daughter, and that's not cheap, there are always benefits to having "more" in the future.

2/ When you re-invest, try to diversify, as although you've thought about inflation, you still need to be careful of currency shifts and localised problems. If rentals bomb out, you don't want to be caught short. Likewise, you don't want to invest all in one city, what if a natural disaster were to happen in say Sydney? Or maybe even not all in one country, what is the $Au bombs out? You want security, so that you can be assured of a solid passive income over the next 50 years, that's a long time and anything could happen.

3/ You will need something to do with your free time. You'll die of boredom otherwise. Investing your money might be nice, but you'll need something else. You've suggested a business, or maybe some charity work, that's a good idea. Have multiple strategies, and try to learn the language too, it'll occupy your time and be extremely useful.

4/ Have a backup plan, or multiple, and don't just be set on "Living" in Thailand longterm. You could easily go to another country and live a very nice lifestyle, as you can travel the world, living in each country for 6-12 months without any problems. Especially while your daughter hasn't started school yet, so then you can take her with you, she can learn multiple languages and when she's ready to start school you could start to settle down in the country which you like the most.

That's my 2c anyway

Thats nonsence ..... the rates of return likely to be gererated will not allow our 31 year old commando friend to both live reasonably well and also beome the filanthropist he would like to be as opposed to keeping the bisness and doing the same thing ...... Someone said he could not make any rate of return and spend 1mill thai bhat per year , while thats correct in 60 years that would mean about 8000 bht spending power per month at todays value.

Expecting 2 people and a child to live for 60 years on the rate of return of 3mill protected for inflation at todays returns is foolish as opposed to the rate of return the bis seems to be generating.

I can Promise you in 25 years or less the desicion will be regretted for to many reasons to list.

60 years ago you could buy a new car for 500 dollars a high end sports car for 3000 ....... You sir are obviously not a qualified financiall planner or a bisnessman.

As I stated the risk vs the reward renders this plan foolish by any meashure except wanting to loose money in the long run.

[farang000999]

in thailand they do not even have freedom of speech. you say the wrong thing and you go to prison. some enlightened and amazing country! there is no wealth distribution. no free press. no equality. no human rights.

This is such an absolutely ridiculous statement. Yes, I'm sure you can find examples for each, but I can find more examples to the contrary. At the same time, I can find examples of America lacking freedom of speech, wealth distribution, human rights, equality, etc., but I'd hardly say that was what America was about. Your hatred of Thailand has completely distorted your perspective....and credibility.

You can murder someone in Thailand in broad daylight on video camera and if you have the right connections never even serve a day in jail. Even a regular farang/Thai can kill someone very easily and pay their way out of it. The USA might have a third world wealth distribution but there is still a very high minimum standard of living. I don't hate Thailand. I just choose to live in reality. As for freedom of press - lol.

Edited July 23, 2012 by farang000999

[Naam]

I know it might seem like 3mill and you can retire and become a filanthrapist

isn't raping anything, even a filanth, against the law in most countries?

[jacktrip]

One thing I have noticed about Thailand is that when you meet someone the topic always turns to money.

If you are looking to leave the 'rat race' of just accumulating more assets whatever level you happen to be at, you also need to leave the mentality of comparing what you have to everyone around you, otherwise you are just in the same place. Something to think about since the question and thread is based on money pretty much, rather then how happy you would be or the good things about Thailand.

In other more affulent countries the topic of money may not come up as much. It will in Thailand, all the time.

You also seem to be dangling a carrot of a possible business venture with others from this forum. I believe this is a very risky endeavor to be involved in from someone you do not know, and in my experience those with assets do not easily offer such opportunities.

Edited July 23, 2012 by jacktrip

[farang000999]

You also seem to be dangling a carrot of a possible business venture with others from this forum. I believe this is a very risky endeavor to be involved in from someone you do not know, and in my experience those with assets do not easily offer such opportunities.

well apparently OP is looking to make friends on Thai Visa before he arrives?

Perhaps a sophisticated Nigerian?

[GreenSnapper]

The major thing he should worry about is his fiance.

There are lots of temptations in Thailand, and there is a high probability he would some day fall for it. If he is married then with his fiance, she may go for divorce and take huge parts of his assets. All retirement calculations may be void then.

He can raise his kid without being married. And that's what I would do.

[MrRealDeal]

I would take the post a little more seriously if he wasn't a 31 year old multi millionare bisness man who doesn't seem to understand bisness very well, AND an Ex commando at the same time !

[GreenSnapper]

I would take the post a little more seriously if he wasn't a 31 year old multi millionare bisness man who doesn't seem to understand bisness very well, AND an Ex commando at the same time !

With real estate you can lose a lot, but also win a lot. It's certainly possible to become rich in a few years.

[RAZZELL]

Expecting 2 people and a child to live for 60 years on the rate of return of 3mill protected for inflation at todays returns is foolish as opposed to the rate of return the bis seems to be generating.

$3m Oz not 3m baht!

Which equates to nearly £2m (give or take a few quid).

Divide that by 40 years= £50k a year...or at present exchange rates 2.5m baht...per year.

More than adequate..even taking into account inflation.

RAZZ

Edited July 23, 2012 by RAZZELL

[MrRealDeal]

Your missing the point ...... it's not about weather 3 mill is enough or not , it's about if the choice between selling the thing thats generating the money is the thing to do, or keeping whats generating the money the thing to do hopeing to generate money elsewhere ..... If the bis was just an average bis you could easily just buy another and it wouldn't matter , however in this case the claim is it's an unuaually good one ...... selling an unusually good bisness in hopes to buy an unusually good bisness is foolish since you already have what you are looking for.

You also fail to realise that every 20 years the buying power is cut in half .... in 40 years that means 2.5 divided by 2= 1,25 divided by 2 again = .625 in 40 years buying power not 2.5

Conversly the value of the bisness is not hit by inflation but actually goes up with inflation as does the money generated ........ You sir are also not a financial planner

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Hey bud,

I too thought I would retire (it just sounds good) in Thailand at 28, I dont have as much as you, but my wife and I have two properties in Sydney which gives us a pretty good income as we also don;t have to pay rent in Bangkok as my wife owns a nice house.

But trust me, after 6 months to a year of travels in Thailand, it got a little boring (was hard to imagine at the time).

So then you will be looking into a small business of somesort just to keep life a little challenging (this is what happen to us).

We came from working 7 days in Sydney to doing sweet f@#k all in Thailand and you will miss the challenge after awhile and will want to keep yourself busy.

Most people either just get a job here or open up a business, luckily for me and the wife, we studied the same thing in Uni and could open up a small company doing our thing. If you were successful in Australia with yout old business, perhaps you can open up something on a smaller scale here first to keep you busy.

Trust me, retiring early is actually harder than you think, you will be back looking to work or do something within a year I reckon.

Retired at 26 and still happily doing nothing.

[MrRealDeal]

Hey bud,

I too thought I would retire (it just sounds good) in Thailand at 28, I dont have as much as you, but my wife and I have two properties in Sydney which gives us a pretty good income as we also don;t have to pay rent in Bangkok as my wife owns a nice house.

But trust me, after 6 months to a year of travels in Thailand, it got a little boring (was hard to imagine at the time).

So then you will be looking into a small business of somesort just to keep life a little challenging (this is what happen to us).

We came from working 7 days in Sydney to doing sweet f@#k all in Thailand and you will miss the challenge after awhile and will want to keep yourself busy.

Most people either just get a job here or open up a business, luckily for me and the wife, we studied the same thing in Uni and could open up a small company doing our thing. If you were successful in Australia with yout old business, perhaps you can open up something on a smaller scale here first to keep you busy.

Trust me, retiring early is actually harder than you think, you will be back looking to work or do something within a year I reckon.

Retired at 26 and still happily doing nothing.

Errr no you are unemployed not retired ..... their is a big difference

[WebBangkok]

Hey bud,

I too thought I would retire (it just sounds good) in Thailand at 28, I dont have as much as you, but my wife and I have two properties in Sydney which gives us a pretty good income as we also don;t have to pay rent in Bangkok as my wife owns a nice house.

But trust me, after 6 months to a year of travels in Thailand, it got a little boring (was hard to imagine at the time).

So then you will be looking into a small business of somesort just to keep life a little challenging (this is what happen to us).

We came from working 7 days in Sydney to doing sweet f@#k all in Thailand and you will miss the challenge after awhile and will want to keep yourself busy.

Most people either just get a job here or open up a business, luckily for me and the wife, we studied the same thing in Uni and could open up a small company doing our thing. If you were successful in Australia with yout old business, perhaps you can open up something on a smaller scale here first to keep you busy.

Trust me, retiring early is actually harder than you think, you will be back looking to work or do something within a year I reckon.

Retired at 26 and still happily doing nothing.

Errr no you are unemployed not retired ..... their is a big difference

Sacked/ Quit is almost the same

[MrRealDeal]

The difference between retired and unemployed is ..... to be retired by defention you need to have quit your profession or career ...... and at 26 you are to young to have had a career. Doesn't mean your an unemployed bum , you could be wealthy but your just not retired as you have nothing to retire from. Selling a bisness or having an inheritance or any other reason and not working doesn't make you retired at 26. It makes you lucky and unemployed !

[jackinbkk]

I'd watch out for posts like this. It looks like a troll who's hoping others will ask for advice on how he made so much money so quickly and if he can help them. i.e. Getting involved in a future deal. There are always suckers out there and a passive post like this will often net them.

If the op really is genuine then good luck. I just advise everyone to be cautious.

[GreenSnapper]

I think you take 31 year old internet millionares named Ex Commando a little to seriously !

Marc Zuckerberg is younger and richer.....

[SlyAnimal]

Thats nonsence ..... the rates of return likely to be gererated will not allow our 31 year old commando friend to both live reasonably well and also beome the filanthropist he would like to be as opposed to keeping the bisness and doing the same thing ...... Someone said he could not make any rate of return and spend 1mill thai bhat per year , while thats correct in 60 years that would mean about 8000 bht spending power per month at todays value.

Expecting 2 people and a child to live for 60 years on the rate of return of 3mill protected for inflation at todays returns is foolish as opposed to the rate of return the bis seems to be generating.

I can Promise you in 25 years or less the desicion will be regretted for to many reasons to list.

60 years ago you could buy a new car for 500 dollars a high end sports car for 3000 ....... You sir are obviously not a qualified financiall planner or a bisnessman.

As I stated the risk vs the reward renders this plan foolish by any meashure except wanting to loose money in the long run.

You don't think $3Million AU ($90 Million Baht), invested in property would be enough to live comfortably????

He's given a conservative estimate, of $9,000AU a month net (3.6% net return per annum on his 3 Million, which is reasonably conservative).

$9,000 per month in THB is around 270k per month.

They could re-invest 100,000THB and then live off 170k THB easily. Thus growing their investment by 1,200,000 Baht a year, which would ensure that they would remain future proofed (Particularly considering, that since they are investing in property, their income/property value should go up at roughly the same rate as inflation anyway, thus they can essentially exclude inflation from the equation).

Or do you think that 170k THB, after tax, isn't enough for a couple + 1 baby to live off in Thailand?

I'm reasonably sure that'd be a pretty comfortable lifestyle, even in a western country.

And western countries do usually have a higher cost of living than Thailand right??

You can speculate all you want about how profitable their business might be by comparison, however unless you're their accountant and have been over their books, I don't think you have even the slightest clue about how profitable their business may or may not be, or how much of their time is required to run it.

You sir are obviously not a qualified financiall planner or a bisnessman.

Do you perhaps claim to be a financial advisor??

I bow to your superior qualification if you are, I'm sorry my degree is in Business Management, not Finance and Investment. But then, I never claimed to be a financial advisor, just offered my thoughts in response to a question posed by the OP. I'll admit however, that it is a matter I've had some quite serious thought around, as I'm in a similar position to the OP myself, being that I'm also around 30 and want to find a way for myself and my family, to live a comfortable and relaxing life over the next 60 years. Although I have significantly less to invest, thus I need to keep to a much lower budget. Which is perhaps, why I am stunned that you, MrRealDeal, find the concept of sustaining a lifestyle and maintaining an investment, based on 270,000 THB a month, to be impossible.

[MrRealDeal]

I base what I said on knowing what things sell for based on the income they produce and what he stated ....... Once again my point is NOT that you can't live on it my point is selling something that he claims to be producing a lot of money just to put that money elsewhere is not a sensible long term plan ...... as you state the above he would be going backwards over time due to inflation because inflation is higher than less than half of 3.9 percent you would reinvest.

Your investment plan is poorly though out but certianly possible to live on as inflation in South East Asia is about 3 percent all by itself but once again thats not the question.

The question is ..... Is selling the buisness that is making great money in exchange for 3.9 percent return a good financial plan .......

The obvious answer is that since accoring to him the bis is very sucsessful , it's not ..... because you wouldn't call a 3.9 percent return on a bisness especially sucsessful now would you ?

If it's actually a great sucsess he should be able to reap 3.9 from the bis and hire a manager and increase his wealth all at the same time while doing nothing.

I'm not sure what part of all that you fail to understand but the choice is NOT is 3 mill enough to live on , it's a choice between keeping the bisness or selling it. Once again the failure in the plan is, that selling something to make less return when you don't have to is a poor plan.

If however he HAD to sell the bisness he needs to make more like 6 percent to have a good income and protect from inflation , The Brasil Prime Rate is 8 percent so it's certianly possible to do that today however it's still not especially sensible to cash out of a moneymaking enterprise to exchange it for 8 percent returns now is it ?

[Chonburiram]

^^ dont worry, they still could sell their Ferrari and the Rolexes...

[BillyBobThai]

You could easily live on a quater of that $9000 a month amount for a while and chill out and let the rest go back into the princapal.

[ExCommando]

Thats nonsence ..... the rates of return likely to be gererated will not allow our 31 year old commando friend to both live reasonably well and also beome the filanthropist he would like to be as opposed to keeping the bisness and doing the same thing ...... Someone said he could not make any rate of return and spend 1mill thai bhat per year , while thats correct in 60 years that would mean about 8000 bht spending power per month at todays value.

Expecting 2 people and a child to live for 60 years on the rate of return of 3mill protected for inflation at todays returns is foolish as opposed to the rate of return the bis seems to be generating.

I can Promise you in 25 years or less the desicion will be regretted for to many reasons to list.

60 years ago you could buy a new car for 500 dollars a high end sports car for 3000 ....... You sir are obviously not a qualified financiall planner or a bisnessman.

As I stated the risk vs the reward renders this plan foolish by any meashure except wanting to loose money in the long run.

You don't think $3Million AU ($90 Million Baht), invested in property would be enough to live comfortably????

He's given a conservative estimate, of $9,000AU a month net (3.6% net return per annum on his 3 Million, which is reasonably conservative).

$9,000 per month in THB is around 270k per month.

They could re-invest 100,000THB and then live off 170k THB easily. Thus growing their investment by 1,200,000 Baht a year, which would ensure that they would remain future proofed (Particularly considering, that since they are investing in property, their income/property value should go up at roughly the same rate as inflation anyway, thus they can essentially exclude inflation from the equation).

Or do you think that 170k THB, after tax, isn't enough for a couple + 1 baby to live off in Thailand?

I'm reasonably sure that'd be a pretty comfortable lifestyle, even in a western country.

And western countries do usually have a higher cost of living than Thailand right??

You can speculate all you want about how profitable their business might be by comparison, however unless you're their accountant and have been over their books, I don't think you have even the slightest clue about how profitable their business may or may not be, or how much of their time is required to run it.

You sir are obviously not a qualified financiall planner or a bisnessman.

Do you perhaps claim to be a financial advisor??

I bow to your superior qualification if you are, I'm sorry my degree is in Business Management, not Finance and Investment. But then, I never claimed to be a financial advisor, just offered my thoughts in response to a question posed by the OP. I'll admit however, that it is a matter I've had some quite serious thought around, as I'm in a similar position to the OP myself, being that I'm also around 30 and want to find a way for myself and my family, to live a comfortable and relaxing life over the next 60 years. Although I have significantly less to invest, thus I need to keep to a much lower budget. Which is perhaps, why I am stunned that you, MrRealDeal, find the concept of sustaining a lifestyle and maintaining an investment, based on 270,000 THB a month, to be impossible.

I really wouldn't bother replying to MrRealDeal - I took me the better part of 3 attempts to read through his illegible post reply last night.

People fail to realise the following;

I currently hold property to the value (current) of $4.2million dollars.

Against this, I have loans to the value of $3.1million

I will sell the business, and invest the majority of the proceeds into the properyt, obvioulsy leaving a small mortgage on each for tax purposes, and to free up some of the proceeds of the sale.

I have been extremely conservative in the 9k net, as the property rental income generates over $17,000 per month, so I have allocated over $8,000 for maintenance, tax and contingency.

Property, in Australia, is set to increase in value by an adjusted 7% per year over the medium term - I take a more conservative view and expect a 5% growth on my property portfolio per year.

Therefore, my investment will generate a MINIMUM of 3.25m BHAT per year, while my investments increase in value by 5%, which is $210,000 AUS, or 6.8M BHAT.

I always take an extremely conservative view, so drop the 5% increase in portfolio value to 2.5%, and I am still looking at a 3.4M Bhat increase in capital growth, plus 3.25M bhat income per year (AFTER TAX)

You don't need a degree in business, or be a financial advisor to appreciate the simple math involved with the above.

If the above still doesn't make sense to the trolls in this forum, or they are unhappy that I chose to move to Thailand and enjoy life, please, kindly go away, and let the rest of us have a decent conversation!

[Yumthai]

I have been extremely conservative in the 9k net, as the property rental income generates over $17,000 per month, so I have allocated over $8,000 for maintenance, tax and contingency.

What if your property is not rented (whatever reason) for one or several months?

[ExCommando]

I have been extremely conservative in the 9k net, as the property rental income generates over $17,000 per month, so I have allocated over $8,000 for maintenance, tax and contingency.

What if your property is not rented (whatever reason) for one or several months?

Hasn't happened over the last few years - but that's where the conteingency is factored into it. I'm allocating approximately 10% of gross rental return to contingency - which covers maintenance and loss rent.

[expatdreamer]

I really wouldn't bother replying to MrRealDeal - I took me the better part of 3 attempts to read through his illegible post reply last night.

People fail to realise the following;

I currently hold property to the value (current) of $4.2million dollars.

Against this, I have loans to the value of $3.1million

I will sell the business, and invest the majority of the proceeds into the properyt, obvioulsy leaving a small mortgage on each for tax purposes, and to free up some of the proceeds of the sale.

I have been extremely conservative in the 9k net, as the property rental income generates over $17,000 per month, so I have allocated over $8,000 for maintenance, tax and contingency.

Property, in Australia, is set to increase in value by an adjusted 7% per year over the medium term - I take a more conservative view and expect a 5% growth on my property portfolio per year.

Therefore, my investment will generate a MINIMUM of 3.25m BHAT per year, while my investments increase in value by 5%, which is $210,000 AUS, or 6.8M BHAT.

I always take an extremely conservative view, so drop the 5% increase in portfolio value to 2.5%, and I am still looking at a 3.4M Bhat increase in capital growth, plus 3.25M bhat income per year (AFTER TAX)

You don't need a degree in business, or be a financial advisor to appreciate the simple math involved with the above.

If the above still doesn't make sense to the trolls in this forum, or they are unhappy that I chose to move to Thailand and enjoy life, please, kindly go away, and let the rest of us have a decent conversation!

My 2c worth from someone that still lives in Oz but has aspirations to retire in Thailand.

Firstly I get that you are bummed from the rat race, and agree that seeking to obtain extra wealth for the sake of it is futile. I cant help but feel there are going to be some problems with your plan, and I think that some have already pointed these out. These include:

• Visas - a long time to go before you are eligible for a retirement visa at 50. How are you going to manage this? Will you be going for an investment visa which I think is now $10M baht or $300k Oz, which means tying this money up in Thailand, and maybe not being able to get it out?
  
• Schooling - if I had children, I would much prefer they go to a good government school here in Oz in a good area (and the cost of which is pretty much free) unless I could afford a top international school in Thailand, and it is not clear whether that is in your plans. Good universities are also free here in Oz (apart from HECS which you can pay later once you start earning), and is where all the rich Thais want to send their children
  
• Temptations - needless to say there will be temptations as far as liaisons with the opposite sex are concerned for you. Is this something your current wife/fiance has thought through. Also a divorce for you would mean loss of 70% of your wealth. How would you feel about this?
  

Personally if I was in your situation, I would probably look at buying a nice property (but not extravagant) to live in in a seaside suburb in Queensland say (Sunshine coast, etc) which have been hit pretty hard by the real estate bubble here in Oz, and then just take frequent holidays to Thailand or elsewhere in SE Asia. Similar weather and you should be able to find a bargain or two.

I also see some issues with what you have stated. These include:

• Here in Oz, we have had a major real estate bubble which is yet to fully unwind. At best property prices are likely to remain stagnant for years. The media/economists are already talking about the end of the mining boom in 2 years. Also, I hear of real estate agents losing their jobs due to the current market, and I also see real estate business shutting down or downsizing in terms of number of offices. So what makes you so sure you will sell your real estate business for such a good profit? Do you have a buyer and signed contract for sale?
  
• Why do you need to leave a small mortgage on properties. A large mortgage has tax benefits, but I dont see what leaving a small mortgage provides in terms of benefits compared to no mortgage? All expenses such as rates are still deductable.
  
• Have you considered that if you reside in Thailand for long enough (a couple of years), you will become non resident as far as the ATO is concerned. Your tax rate on all the income from rent (minus deductions) becomes 32.5% from the first dollar earnt. This is quite high. There is no tax free threshold for non residents. Staying in Oz and having half the properties in your name and half in your wife's name (or all properties owned jointly) would see you save significant tax from the tax free threshold (first $20k per person tax free or $40k AUSD in total tax free). I see you have mentioned tax into your calcs, but have you used the right tax rate? This will make a big difference.
  
• 5% growth on Oz property per year is I believe unrealistic for the next few years at least. We may be headed for a Japan style period of no growth on property for a decade or two.
  

Overall, if you were a single man with no children/ties, then sure I would say go for it. But in your situation, I just dont think I would be doing it. But if it is what you want, and you have thought everything through, then best of luck with it.

[farang000999]

The Thai people are Buddhists so the topic of money only very rarely comes up in conversation. They are not interested in obtaining shiny things. They have no use for gold or jewelry or fancy cars or any other status symbols. Their calm demeanor can be best observed in traffic as despite the total lack of civil engineering the politeness of those on the road makes driving a breeze. My only wish is that one day the Australian government officials can study the policies of the Peau Thai Party and rid Australia of corruption. As OP says, Thailand is awesome and Australia sucks!

[WebBangkok]

The Thai people are Buddhists so the topic of money only very rarely comes up in conversation. They are not interested in obtaining shiny things. They have no use for gold or jewelry or fancy cars or any other status symbols. Their calm demeanor can be best observed in traffic as despite the total lack of civil engineering the politeness of those on the road makes driving a breeze. My only wish is that one day the Australian government officials can study the policies of the Peau Thai Party and rid Australia of corruption. As OP says, Thailand is awesome and Australia sucks!

lol either you're good at taking the piss or you really are a sad case.

[MrsMills]

The OP certainly done his homework before asking for advice here, anonymous forums are cram packed with multimillionaires.

Kudos to excommando.

[missionrat]

I don't think your'e a troll, just an uncouth pompous as that loves to talk about how much money has. Bla bla bla, I have a ferrari, bla bla bla, money money money.... You sound like an American! And I love that the title is "32 and retiring with $3 million".

You sir are what we call a pretentious wanke_r. Get over yourself.

Plus $3 mill split between your wife and having to raise a kid and healthcare and retirement isnt even that much! I don't think you are even ready to retire. Don't quit your day job....

[missionrat]

The OP certainly done his homework before asking for advice here, anonymous forums are cram packed with multimillionaires.

Kudos to excommando.

Hahahaha, isn't that the truth...l I almost crashed my Lamborghini laughing to that!

[Gary A]

The trolls have to remember one thing. That one thing is that the first liar doesn't have a chance. The benchmark will ALWAYS be surpassed. Anyone with that kind of money would never post on a public forum. If they have earned that kind of money why would they ask for advice from other trolls. There is the remote possibility that they have inherited the money and in that rare case, fools and their money are soon parted.