Immigration At Riverside Owners Meeting Threatened To Jail Any Forang Owners Who Rent Out

[cmexpat999]

At yesterdays meeting of owners at Riverside condominium an official from immigration came along and stated that forang who owned more than 1 condo or if they rented their condo out who did not have a work permit were breaking the law and would be subject to arrest. He added that any owner must report all forang living in their condo to immigration and failure to do so would result in a large fine.

This is first time I believe this has happened in any condo block and seemed to be aimed at forang who had more than one condo . So it seems if you occupy a single condo there is no problem at all and probably if you do not let out again their seems to be no problem.

The immigration officer also said tax was payable on any rent received but did not add to that statement.

It would seem an easy matter if they wanted to simply check at the land office or even at condo office to see which forang had more than one condo and also to check if someone else was living in the condo.

Probably wont come to anything

[uptheos]

So, can you get a work permit to rent out condo's?

[Semper]

Nothing new here. If you do some business, be prepared to show a WP.

[CMNightRider]

Wow, Chiang Mai is going to have Condo Police. They already have the Music Police that search for foreigners playing instruments illegally. Has anyone heard if there are any plans to have Traffic Police?

[cmexpat999]

Nothing new here. If you do some business, be prepared to show a WP.

its completely new lots of forang rent out their condos and none I know have a WP or pay tax. Leaving aside the tax issue the real question is can immigration claim just renting out your condo is working. I have 2 units one i live in one I rent out. An agent found the tenant and I paid the agents commission but after that if theirs any problems I pay someone to fix them. What guy from immigration department seemed to be saying is that is considered working and he also said they had put forang in jail for doing it. I doubt if any forang have ever been put in jail or im sure I would have heard about it. Their is some dispute between some owners and juristic manager so it could well be a warning arranged by JM to be careful or things could get nasty.

[Jingthing]

Interesting, scary, and bizarre. I hope this doesn't go anywhere.

Do y'all in CM have adjoining room condos such as are prevalent in Pattaya?

For example an owner could own 2 or three condos but they would be joined as one condo, but legally be two or three separate ownership deeds.

Under a draconian interpretation of the threats made in CM, a foreigner living "innocently" in his bigger one condo which is technically two or three condos would be subject to arrest!

[uptheos]

I guess renting out a condo or house is doing business and liable to income tax..

It would be in most countries.

Are the minutes of the meeting posted anywhere?

[cmsally]

So, obvious questions would be: who invited said official to meeting.

Was he actually a real immigration official; I presume someone made a note of his name and position

[uptheos]

So, obvious questions would be: who invited said official to meeting.

Was he actually a real immigration official; I presume someone made a note of his name and position

Hence my question regarding the minutes of the meeting.

[CMNightRider]

Nothing new here. If you do some business, be prepared to show a WP.

its completely new lots of forang rent out their condos and none I know have a WP or pay tax. Leaving aside the tax issue the real question is can immigration claim just renting out your condo is working. I have 2 units one i live in one I rent out. An agent found the tenant and I paid the agents commission but after that if theirs any problems I pay someone to fix them. What guy from immigration department seemed to be saying is that is considered working and he also said they had put forang in jail for doing it. I doubt if any forang have ever been put in jail or im sure I would have heard about it. Their is some dispute between some owners and juristic manager so it could well be a warning arranged by JM to be careful or things could get nasty.

Immigration actually "put a forang (foreigner) in jail for doing it?" I wonder if the foreigner that was renting condos illegally would be housed in the same cell with a foreigner that was caught playing a musical instrument illegally?

[uptheos]

Until I see official signed minutes of the meeting, I would just put it down as scaremongering.

[Dante99]

Nothing new here. If you do some business, be prepared to show a WP.

its completely new lots of forang rent out their condos and none I know have a WP or pay tax. Leaving aside the tax issue the real question is can immigration claim just renting out your condo is working.

Yes they can. Semper is right, you are doing business and need a work permit. And be careful about "leaving aside the tax issue". I know a faring who did that and after a few years the tax department said pay 12 million Baht very soon or we will take your properties. Interest and penalties increase the past due tax dramatically here just like in many other countries.

[eyecatcher]

I would think most "landlords" who are renting out their condos are not likely to be in the country anyway, so not easy to police and not easy to trace either.

I cant see farangs being hauled away the minute they arrive at Swampy immigration.

I do see however that being a professional landlord should carry the same requirements as other professions here in respect of permits and taxes; but business owners despite drawing their meagre income from the business are still able to avoid the need for a WP and also paying personal income tax.

[cmexpat999]

Until I see official signed minutes of the meeting, I would just put it down as scaremongering.

since their were quite a few forang owners at the meeting im sure someone will confirm the facts ive reported. It seems likely the manager invited someone from immigration but I dont know. IMO it will come to nothing but I can assure you it was as ive reported. I normally avoid TV since it is usually full of nonsense and made up BS but since this could affect me I thought someone might have some useful knowledge on this subject or similar experiance. It is certainly in 4 years here the first ive ever heard or experienced this. I know many other owners and no one has ever mentioned this type of problem before. It was definitely a shock to most forang at the meeting.

[uptheos]

Until I see official signed minutes of the meeting, I would just put it down as scaremongering.

since their were quite a few forang owners at the meeting im sure someone will confirm the facts ive reported. It seems likely the manager invited someone from immigration but I dont know. IMO it will come to nothing but I can assure you it was as ive reported. I normally avoid TV since it is usually full of nonsense and made up BS but since this could affect me I thought someone might have some useful knowledge on this subject or similar experiance. It is certainly in 4 years here the first ive ever heard or experienced this. I know many other owners and no one has ever mentioned this type of problem before. It was definitely a shock to most forang at the meeting.

It is indeed very important subject to a lot of people, but how to substantiate it unless you scan a copy of the meeting without names on. I'm sure everyone would love to know who the immigration bod was and why he was invited, or did he/she just invite themselves?

There were minutes I presume?

[cmexpat999]

the meeting was yesterday but I understand when the minutes are produced they will be posted in Riverside lobby for all to see. Im not sure if the immigration thing was part of official EGM or just a separate show. UP to you or others if you want to believe it. I was there and so were a lot of other forangs so it would be useful for doubters here if any of other forang confirmed assuming they have a logon ID. I only just registered purely because it was a shock to me and others at the meeting.

[mcgriffith]

I am not a landlord/owner, nor an expert on Thai law regarding this issue, but I'll just say this:

Logically, someone who is a foreigner in Thailand, who buys a single condo, that they reside in....has no reason to be concerned.

Another foreigner, who owns multiple condos, who rents them out and derives income from same- surely they must be aware that this income is taxable under Thai law, and that probably they need to have a work permit to do this business here. Renting out condos is a business, just like any other business: owning a bar or restaurant, operating a tour company, etc. Perhaps the Thai tax authorities are just now getting around to enforcing laws that are already on the books?

A Thai national, living in Brighton, or Los Angeles, or Berlin, who owns multiple units, who rents them out, and derives income from same, no doubt has to pay tax on that rental income in those countries.

[eyecatcher]

Until I see official signed minutes of the meeting, I would just put it down as scaremongering.

since their were quite a few forang owners at the meeting im sure someone will confirm the facts ive reported. It seems likely the manager invited someone from immigration but I dont know. IMO it will come to nothing but I can assure you it was as ive reported. I normally avoid TV since it is usually full of nonsense and made up BS but since this could affect me I thought someone might have some useful knowledge on this subject or similar experiance. It is certainly in 4 years here the first ive ever heard or experienced this. I know many other owners and no one has ever mentioned this type of problem before. It was definitely a shock to most forang at the meeting.

So TV is full of nonsense and BS?, but now because you; it seems are guilty of the afforementioned "renting out" you come on here for help.

well i hope for your sake you dont get nonsense and BS answers then.

And all the many other farang owners....it appears by their absence to comment, that they also thinkTV is nonsense.

Well just maybe you will find someone on here who can help but as many have implied already this is very likely to be all nonsense

[cmexpat999]

I am not a landlord/owner, nor an expert on Thai law regarding this issue, but I'll just say this:

Logically, someone who is a foreigner in Thailand, who buys a single condo, that they reside in....has no reason to be concerned.

Another foreigner, who owns multiple condos, who rents them out and derives income from same- surely they must be aware that this income is taxable under Thai law, and that they need to have a work permit to do this business here. Renting out condos is a business, just like any other business.

A Thai national, living in Brighton, or Los Angeles, or Berlin, who owns multiple units, who rents them out, and derives income from same, no doubt has to pay tax on that rental income in those countries.

As to the visa requirements, it is not a stretch of imagination to see why one would need a work permit to do this here, if one is engaged in the landlord/rental business.

TIT and not UK. Prostitution is illegal as is not wearing a crash helmet and im sure your meant to pay tax on rental income but no one except owners of apartment blocks does. TIT. Further I know lots of forang owners living here who rent out condos and none of them have a WP or pay any tax. Id like ot see one person on TV who rents out condos and is not a agent or broker say they have a WP and pay taxes. That will be a very rare animal here indeed.

[cmexpat999]

In reply to

Quote

So TV is full of nonsense and BS?, but now because you; it seems are guilty of the afforementioned "renting out" you come on here for help.

well i hope for your sake you dont get nonsense and BS answers then.

And all the many other farang owners....it appears by their absence to comment, that they also thinkTV is nonsense.

Well just maybe you will find someone on here who can help but as many have implied already this is very likely to be all nonsense

Answer

fair comment in a way. Im not asking for help just to ask has anyone else come across this problem. Its the first time ive come across it but ive only been here 4 years and only have 2 units. IMO it will not be a problem but if it seems to be one ill just give management of one condo I dont live in to someone to manage for me and then I cant see how it can be claimed even here as me working. If it becomes a problem ill just either leave other unit empty or sell it. I could do with some storage space anyway and rental is not much.

[mcgriffith]

Well good luck to you then, cmexpat999!

[Semper]

Id like ot see one person on TV who rents out condos and is not a agent or broker

There are several around, but they don't 'advertise' this on TV.

[george]

Use a property agent to manage condo rentals. Problem solved.

[Rancid]

Riverside has long standing problems with warring factions trying to gain control of the committee, best to just leave it at that.

My understanding is that you can rent a room if you pay tax (have to apply for it) and that no WP is required for a few rooms within reason.

[Greenside]

I am not a landlord/owner, nor an expert on Thai law regarding this issue, but I'll just say this:

Logically, someone who is a foreigner in Thailand, who buys a single condo, that they reside in....has no reason to be concerned.

Another foreigner, who owns multiple condos, who rents them out and derives income from same- surely they must be aware that this income is taxable under Thai law, and that probably they need to have a work permit to do this business here. Renting out condos is a business, just like any other business: owning a bar or restaurant, operating a tour company, etc. Perhaps the Thai tax authorities are just now getting around to enforcing laws that are already on the books?

A Thai national, living in Brighton, or Los Angeles, or Berlin, who owns multiple units, who rents them out, and derives income from same, no doubt has to pay tax on that rental income in those countries.

I think in the UK it depends on the scale. As a residential landlord you're not obliged to register a business of any kind or file accounts other than those required to prepare your personal tax return. Paying tax is not in question (one should) but a work permit? I doubt they would even consider an application.

As far as George's suggestion goes it's not clear if it's the act of renting or managing that was deemed to require a WP. Seeing as there is no real rule book (well, not a challengeable one anyway) it would be down the the individual officer which is always cause for concern.

The immigration department has become involved in at least one other fracas between co-owners and condo management that I know of and in this case told a particularly active co-owner that there would be visa issues if they didn't back off. As someone above pointed out, how official this "official" really is might be in some doubt, but in any event having someone who claims to represent immigration put the frighteners on people who haven't broken any laws is pretty serious.

[cmsally]

It might be illuminating to know what the issues are between owners and juristic.

[mcgriffith]

Thanks for the clarification, george and Greenside.

[Dante99]

Use a property agent to manage condo rentals. Problem solved.

Okay so then the owner is not working as a property agent, one problem fixed. The owner is still running a business just more passively and taxes still are due, aren't they

[KhunVee]

I guess renting out a condo or house is doing business and liable to income tax..

It would be in most countries.

Are the minutes of the meeting posted anywhere?

At first: by Thai law, every rental contract should be registered and rental amount is subject to Withholding tax 3% to be paid by the owner.

Secondly: the income from rental should be filed just like all your other income and is subject to income tax at the end of year (amount depending on total of your income)

Theoretically,.... You cannot file for income taxes as foreigner without WP... So strictly there's some truth in this,... But then again, which Thai that rent out houses/condo's registers the contracts ? Let alone pays the W/H tax and reports the income????

I think this is some One-Man-Action from a government official who needs to line his pockets urgently.

Could yet lead to a dangerous presedent ...

[george]

Use a property agent to manage condo rentals. Problem solved.

Okay so then the owner is not working as a property agent, one problem fixed. The owner is still running a business just more passively and taxes still are due, aren't they

There is a 5% withholding tax on rentals if I remember correct. A property agent can assist you with paying the tax on your behalf.