Latex Plantation

[Mark1971]

...some thoughts .

..guess this was the wifes idea?

..who informed you about the Chanote being issued?..."free beer tomorrow"? Still waiting for a paved road past our farm "promised" by head man 7 years ago...

...Sounds like you should ask someone other than "interested" parties to evaluate the trees...

..the ROI in rubber is certainly better than many investments but as Jim says, being an absentee gentleman farmer makes it a high risk investment..not to mention the ulcers..

However all the due diligence/research in the world will certainly help but it ain't for the faint of heart.

That said many Farangs are doing it and enjoying it and you should not let us know alls stop you if that is what YOU really want to do....will never know if I would have done it if TV and the like info was available when .......it is a nice life style for sure...

Think if I was your age the last thing I would be thinking about was getting into farming in Thailand...555

Hi, Originally my idea once I visited our families existing farm nearby. Chanote info is from the villagers. Our families farm was converted to Chanote two months ago and they said they are 'working their way around' to the area of the new farm in 2013. But I appreciate this is Thailand and this may be 'extended' for a longer period.

It's certainly one of those if you don't try you'll never know things. I already have investments and property in the UK and Europe.

I'm hoping to break even in 50-60 months (investment of 1.77m THB). Does that sound crazy to you?

Cheers for the pointers, Tom.

Hmm sounds like you are on the ball.....5 years should get you out from under..think our first 25 rai ( about 1milbt.)...took about 4 at 30-50bt kilo cup so it's not beyond the realms so to speak. Just keep your expectations realistic and I am sure you will be fine....Unfortunately it is a fact that "they" being some families or ....assume that you are infinitely rich and that any "extras" they can gain will not be missed and they will not be held accountable......since you know nothing ,foreigner yadda yadda...etc...sad but true....something we have to live with...good luck

d

At current Rubber prices I don't understand how it is possible to return the initial 1.77M Baht in 5 years, on 960 trees (12 Rai @ 80 trees / Rai).

To me it would make a good investment if the owner wanted to tap his own trees.

If someone else is doing all of the work and taking 50% for their effort the pay back time would be much longer.

(Approximately 15 years based upon my previous calculation).

[jamescollister]

All the calculations, estimates and numbers will tell you nothing. If you didn't grow the trees yourself you are guessing at output. An Aussie guy about 30 km from here planted 25 rai of rubber, he lives in OZ full time. Sent money to his wife's family to care for the trees. They are 12 years old and in such poor shape no percentage tapper will touch them, he has 25 rai of fire wood.

If you are buying producing trees you can go and see what they really produce, untapped trees may look OK, but they may have been grow from seed not grafted clones.

Just like a used car salesman, they tell you what they want you to hear. Chances are in their mind you are a temporary son in law. You are not Thai, if you were they would expect the OP to get out and tap their trees for little or no money.

In real terms this is the divorce settlement up front. Take it from me you are an outsider and always will be until you have kids. Then you are part of the family. Jim

[cdmtdm]

Take it from me you are an outsider and always will be until you have kids. Then you are part of the family. Jim

that is the facts for sure .... well put Jim .... then it all changes

[Mosha]

<.... and that's why I'm The Invisible Farang 555

[vexape]

Thanks for all of the input. We're going ahead with it. I'll keep you updated how it goes and also what kind of production we get.

Carpe diem...

Tom.

[Dakling]

Thanks for all of the input. We're going ahead with it. I'll keep you updated how it goes and also what kind of production we get.

Carpe diem...

Tom.

I think there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. You are young enough that this will likely be only one of many investments you make in your life. Worst case scenario is you and the missus split and you walk away with nothing but who wants to live always considering the worst case scenario.

My wife and I bought about 35 rai 1.5 years ago and have planted about 24 rai with RRIM 600. We plan on planting the remaining land in about 2 years as we are currently letting one of her brothers farm cassava on it. I say about 35 rai because none of the land has ever been properly surveyed and has dodgy title but that is the norm in our area. It is true that there is an ongoing move to get all the rural lands properly titled but this may take some time. My mother in laws land was done recently but they have not been to the area of our land yet. Is there a risk to this? Yes I think so but there is a risk to everything in life.

We also do not intend to live near the farm, we hope to have my wife's family manage the farm for us. To date I get on well with the family and they have never given me reason to doubt their integrity. I was upcountry to look at the trees the other day and they look good to me, we had about 5% of the trees die during the first year and about 5% are noticeably behind the others but overall I was very pleased.

If we find that we are not making expected profits we will simply sell the land. My wife's mother has already been contacted by people wanting to buy our land for double what we paid for it. We don't want to sell until we make a go of it though. Also a big part of the reason for this investment is that we hope to employ my wife's family on the farm. They are generally hard working and reliable but have never had enough land to "get ahead". The reason we didn't plant all our land with trees was to give them some land to work while we wait for the trees to grow. They are also inter-cropping our trees with a rice variety that does reasonably well on elevated non-paddy land.

My expected income is in line with the numbers quoted by Mark1971 though we hope to do a bit better than 5kg/year/tree. If we get 5kg or more then we will keep the land and work it, otherwise we will simply sell it and take the short term profits. As far as I see it I have 3 primary risks:

1. My wife finds a younger handsomer ATM with a higher daily withdrawal limit.

2. We lose the land due some dispute when the chanote people come round.

3. Land values decline so that we lose money if we decide to sell.

If #1 happens the land will be the least of my concerns.

If #2 happens I will be very disapointed but will move on to my next "opportunity".

If #3 happens we will potentially lose some of our investment and a few years of work.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread talking about my situation I am just trying to show that there are others with similar thoughts out there. Like I said at the opening, you are young enough to recover from the loss if everything goes tits up on you so why not take the plunge. I would caution you away from thinking in purely monetary return on investment terms. There is also benefit in diversification, and entering into a business arrangement with your wife's family may help strengthen your ties with them. They will see this step as you safeguarding their daughter's future and will likely see it as a sign of your commitment to the relationship.

Will you get rich of this? I doubt it, but you might make a bit of money and have some fun along the way. It should be a learning experience regardless of the outcome. Yes it could end up in tears but that is what life is all about.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Dakling

[sreiter]

OP,

I assume that your Brother / Sister in law are going to tap the trees & manage the plantation, while you & your wife take a % of the income.

Here are a number of things you should carefully consider before you invest.

How stable / reliable / honest are your wife's family?

This whole investment relies on them be 100% reliable & honest, over a period of many, many years.

What is your planned return on invested capital?

Could you achieve a similar return with a less risky investment?

(Many Blue Chip UK Stocks pay a 6-8% dividend).

What type of tree clone is planted?

Some of the modern clones RRIT 251, RRIM 3001, JVP80 give a much higher latex yield than the traditional RRIM 600 clones.

How well have the trees been cared for?

Has fertiliser been applied?

Has a nitrogen fixing legumeous cover crop been planted?

What access is there to the land?

If you have to access via someone else's land, what would happen if you are refused access in the future?

Is there a source of water in the dry season?

You refer to liquid latex, when calculating potential income make sure you factor in that liquid latex has a 34% dry rubber content, the other 66% is water. When referring to cost / kg it is normally the dry rubber content which is being quoted.

Good luck.

Hi Mark You seem quite knowledgable (also you say later its all second hand...)- could you evaluate on the "nitrogen fixing legumeous cover crop" please? Which sort would work well with rubber trees? Would you recommend to seed it under mature trees? We observe here (near Bueng Khan) many people spraying weedkillers in their plantations which we avoid. PArts of our plantation are green and need strimming, some parts are bare- too much shade I think. It would be great if you could also give recommendations for fertilizing mature (7 to 8 year old) trees- what, how much, how often, how. I have looked for hints in the forum but have not found any so far. As we bought the land from the local fertilizer merchant I am a bit cagy about his recommendations-seems an awful lot to me! Cheerio Stefan

[Mark1971]

The recommended nitrogen fixing cover crop in mature Rubber plantations is Mucuna Bracteata, it is widely used in Malaysia.

It is advisable that you use a Rizobacteria innoculant, in case the soil in your area doesn't have the correct bacteria, the bacteria is required to allow the plant to transfer the nitrogen from the air into the soil.

Other Farming forum members will know more about fertiliser applications on than me, as they are actually doing this.

My understanding is that the fertiliser requirement increases dramatically when you start cutting the trees.

Trmthailand supply a fertiliser specifically formulated for Rubber trees.

6 Year old trees before tapping = 0.3Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

Mature trees being tapped = 1Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

The purpose of using the nitrogen fixing cover crop is to reduce the quantity & cost of fertiliser applied.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Mark1971

[jamescollister]

The recommended nitrogen fixing cover crop in mature Rubber plantations is Mucuna Bracteata, it is widely used in Malaysia.

It is advisable that you use a Rizobacteria innoculant, in case the soil in your area doesn't have the correct bacteria, the bacteria is required to allow the plant to transfer the nitrogen from the air into the soil.

Other Farming forum members will know more about fertiliser applications on than me, as they are actually doing this.

My understanding is that the fertiliser requirement increases dramatically when you start cutting the trees.

Trmthailand supply a fertiliser specifically formulated for Rubber trees.

6 Year old trees before tapping = 0.3Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

Mature trees being tapped = 1Kg / Tree, Twice a year.

The purpose of using the nitrogen fixing cover crop is to reduce the quantity & cost of fertiliser applied.

Well Mark you have told me something I didn't know. Will have to get on the net tomorrow and find out more on Mucuna Bracteata. Every day is a learning experience, thanks. Jim

[GwenW]

Do you know what is so sor poh kor 4-01 mean ?

How do you know to get 1,500 kilos per month?

Do you know about Thai law?

Just thinking of this!

I just want to tell all of you the truth!

- sor poh kor 4-01 mean do not buy or sell to anyone but can give it for free to sibling.....but that person not marriage to foreign and have to working in farmer job.... Important thing that person must have name in house document in that area minimum 1 year .... Sor poh kor can change to be chanote in the future but not easy must wating for 15 years after did sor poh kor document so chanote have stamp in back of paper can not buy or sell within 10 years. For my opinion you should buy tor boh 5 land better than sor poh kor land.

- about 1,500 kilos/ month. This is not true. First year of tapping just get small but second year ll be better. In E-San tapping rubber not really good then can not tapping 25 years like south of Thailand. I saw e san tapping only 10-15 year and cut the tree. For my opinion 960 trees you can make 800 kilos per month on 2nd year of tapping.

- about Thai law ? You can not buy any land in Thailand even chanote. I just mean land for working like this ! If you buy this land ! You have to sign that money be your wife private money. Not thing with you so if u finish with her ...can not be 50-50.

But if you put sister in law name. That mean you can't do anything with this.

But you have big money enough ! Just buy it and thinking give to your wife family as a gift. It ll be ok.

Sorry about my bad english . I just want to share this. Hope you can understand my bad english.

Edited August 16, 2012 by GwenW

[Mosha]

sor poh kor 4-01 in practice that does not happen. The Thais happily circumvent the law without any apparent repercusion, as long as palms are greased.

[jamescollister]

sor poh kor 4-01 in practice that does not happen. The Thais happily circumvent the law without any apparent repercusion, as long as palms are greased.

That has always been the way, but things are changing, as things get computerized. The bits of paper that changed hands and could be burnt, lost etc are now going on a data base. The person who signs it off puts his PIN in and that ties him to the deal forever.

Out here for the first time ever, auditors from BKK have been up checking the goings on and the local sub Gov and village head have stopped signing land title changes.

One point over looked is the 10 year rule, if taxes are paid and the land is used for the purpose set out, then you [ Thai ] have a right to continued use.

Everything is a gamble, you take a chance, could be invaded from Lao next week or that Chinese orbiter that blow up over the house last year, could have had a nuke on board and make toast of us all.

Personally I think the Government tries to be fair on the land things and if you are using it, then no problems. JIm