What Would A Buddhist Do In This Situation?

[leolibby]

You're hiking along a river and you pass a turtle that is on its back and struggling to get up. It appears it has been like this for hours or days, and will probably die unless helped.

Do you leave it how it how it is? or help it?

Edited July 29, 2012 by leolibby

[ddpffft]

... everyone would help... people like to help others, thats the human default setting...

maybe you want to discuss, if one should consider this bad luck of falling onto the back as the turtles fate and accept that - and not intervene with fate...

but part of the turtles fate is also YOU, who came along...

Edited July 30, 2012 by ddpffft

[leolibby]

... everyone would help... people like to help others, thats the human default setting...

maybe you want to discuss, if one should consider this bad luck of falling onto the back as the turtles fate and accept that - and not intervene with fate...

but part of the turtles fate is also YOU, who came along...

Apparently this is a Zoroastrian test.. a Zoroastrian guy said the correct answer is an "awakened" person will leave it alone..because of the whole "don't interfere with fate" thing. i disagree though. when we are interacting with life.. we can't let our false sence of spirituality affect other people. If that turtle was a man instead, and we left him, it would be wrong no matter how awake we are.

Also how many awake people live in the physical world? how many of those just think they're awake? why shouldnt an awake person help anyway. "fate" is a man made concept.

But can anyone think of any reason why the turtle must be left as it is? Maybe another buddhist is supposed to find it dead and eat it?

Edited July 30, 2012 by leolibby

[leolibby]

As I recall, beetles also get trapped on their back. whenever i correct the situation, they just fall over again.. apparently, their legs are too long.. so I just leave beetles.

[rockyysdt]

I don't know about Zoroastrian's but in Buddhist terms the answer is easy.

The Buddha taught compassion for living beings in the Madhupindika (Honeyball) Sutta.

By looking outward with compassion to another being, and experiencing another's pain as if it was ours, was taught by the Buddha as a genuine path to awakening.

With such a focus, the "l" or "ego" becomes diminished.

Edited July 30, 2012 by rockyysdt

[leolibby]

Good.

[Several]

Depends what team it supported. I mean, who's gonna help a Man United fan?

There again I might flip it over anyway. I mean, it'll never outrun the arrow like that.

But then if I do it might end up as nothing more than an exhibit in the emperors palace although that would give Chinese sages opportunity for comparisons.

Though it might be too heavy to lift depending on whether it has a world on its back.

I blame the rabbit.

[rockyysdt]

Depends what team it supported. I mean, who's gonna help a Man United fan?

One should show compassion despite another's delusion.

Edited July 30, 2012 by rockyysdt

[orientalist]

Haven't heard about this in Zoroastrianism, but the turtle story was the basis of the Voight-Kampff test in the famous opening scene of Blade Runner. It was designed to figure out who was a human and who was a replicant:

Holden: You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when...

Leon: Is this the test now?

Holden: Yes. You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a...

Leon: What one?

Holden: What?

Leon: What desert?

Holden: Doesn't make any difference what desert... its completely hypothetical.

Leon: But how come I'd be there?

Holden: Maybe you're fed up, maybe you want to be by yourself...who knows. So you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you...

Leon: A tortoise. What's that?

Holden: Know what a turtle is?

Leon: Of course.

Holden: Same thing.

Leon: I never seen a turtle.

He sees Holden's patience is wearing thin.

Leon: But I understand what you mean.

Holden: You reach down and flip the tortoise over on its back, Leon.

Keeping an eye on his subject, Holden notes the dials in the Voight-Kampff. One of the needles quivers slightly.

Leon: You make up these questions, Mr. Holden, or do they write 'em down for you?

Holden: The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over. But it can't. Not with out your help. But you're not helping.

Leon: Whatya means, I'm not helping?

Holden: I mean you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?

Holden looks hard at Leon, a hard piercing look. Leon is flushed with anger, breathing hard, it's a bad moment, he might erupt. Suddenly Holden grins disarmingly.

Holden: They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test designed to provoke an emotional response.

Leon is glaring now, the blush subsides, his anger slightly diffused. Holden smiles cheerfully, very smooth.

Holden: Shall we continue?

Leon nods, still frowning, suspiciously.

Holden: Describe in single words. Only the good things that come to your mind. About your mother.

Leon: My mother... I'll tell you about my mother.

Seems to me that Buddhist or any religion, a person with empathy would help the turtle. Perhaps with the emphasis on compassion, Buddhists would be more likely to. If it was an ugly or dangerous animal - like a scorpion - many wouldn't, though. Many kids these days would just video the turtle dying and put the clip on Youtube.

[rockyysdt]

Seems to me that Buddhist or any religion, a person with empathy would help the turtle. Perhaps with the emphasis on compassion, Buddhists would be more likely to. If it was an ugly or dangerous animal - like a scorpion

The definition of compassion is wanting others to be free from suffering.

Compassion is the highest scope of motivation.

Empathy, compassion, sympathy are synonyms.

Karuna is the actual word.

It's understood to mean the willingness to bear the pain of others, or feel the pain of others as if it were ours.

The turtle would be saved.

If the scorpion is not, then put this down to aversion and/or delusion.

Edited July 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

The Buddha would help the turtle without recognizing any distinction between himself and the turtle and without performing any act of helping the turtle.

[weary]

Seems to me that Buddhist or any religion, a person with empathy would help the turtle. Perhaps with the emphasis on compassion, Buddhists would be more likely to. If it was an ugly or dangerous animal - like a scorpion

The definition of compassion is wanting others to be free from suffering.

Compassion is the highest scope of motivation.

Empathy, compassion, sympathy are synonyms.

Karuna is the actual word.

It's understood to mean the willingness to bear the pain of others, or feel the pain of others as if it were ours.

The turtle would be saved.

If the scorpion is not, then put this down to aversion and/or delusion.

Do you mean that not helping a potentially lethal animal in trouble is a sign of lacking in compassion, despite the obvious risk? And that an enlightened being would surely attempt to help the lethal animal? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Edited August 14, 2012 by weary

[Several]

You would treat both the same, lethal or not. There is a story of a monk hurling himself off a cliff to die near a tigeress and her cubs. He did this because the tigress had been unable to hunt and she and the cubs were close to starving to death. Compassion is blind. It isn't about judging who should receive it.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Several

[weary]

Thank you for your input. That's a tough one to accept, let alone practice.

It would also seem that it could be counterproductive, although of course it is possible that the hypothetical monk had thought over the consequences of his death in relation to other beings that may be dependent upon his survival. Perhaps it could be answered that in doing what he did, he served as the greatest example possible.

Also, the thought that there might be more skilful ways of seeing to it that the tiger and her cubs did not starve than killing oneself, also arises.

Edited August 14, 2012 by weary

[Jawnie]

Thank you for your input. That's a tough one to accept, let alone practice.

It would also seem that it could be counterproductive, although of course it is possible that the hypothetical monk had thought over the consequences of his death in relation to other beings that may be dependent upon his survival. Perhaps it could be answered that in doing what he did, he served as the greatest example possible.

Also, the thought that there might be more skilful ways of seeing to it that the tiger and her cubs did not starve than killing oneself, also arises.

This story of the monk sacrificing himself to starving lions is a Jataka story, which are scriptural stories of the Buddha's previous lives as a bodhisattva.

http://www.himalayan....cfm/74281.html

Er...uh...do not try this at home.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Jawnie

[Xangsamhua]

If I were the Buddha I'd do as Jawnie said.

Being a simple tricephalic elephant, however, I'd first give some thought as to how an aquatic animal (turtle) got to find itself upended alongside a river. I'd then help it to right itself and make sure it was headed back to the water. If it fact it turned out to be a tortoise, I'd leave it to find its own way home.

Maybe then I'd move into bodhicitta mode and reflect on the unity of all being, manifest and unmanifest, without any possible cause and effect, but I suspect my efforts would be shallow.

Is your next question about plucking a scorpion from the river? I'd find a stick to do that with, and keep clear of the scorpion.

http://www.messagefr...nd_the_Sage.htm

[MrRealDeal]

Some people are more sensible than others but a sensible person would help a dying animal even if they thought some personality they looked up to would not. If you have to consider what another would advise you to do before you help a dying turtle on it's back or care what another would do, my advice would be to become less reliant on the thoughts and opinions of others and try and become more reliant on your own. Becauce if not for another or for the incorect intreperatition of another the answer would be obvious.

This question falls under the catagory of things that should and would be obvious enough to need no explanation if not for over reliance on the opinions of others.

A hungry person might just as well make soup out of it , a foolish person would die of starvation along with it , another might feed it and let it follow them home and eat it later. Personally I don't need anyones advice on what to do in the world of upside down turtles looking for help. Nor do I think anyone else does either.

[camerata]

Q.E.D. MrRealDeal is a replicant.

[hookedondhamma]

Q.E.D. MrRealDeal is a replicant.

Yes. Now let's all practice metta and let this thread die peacefully, lol. Or maybe it can't, due to it's karma ...edit* imagine smileys all around this post

Edited August 14, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[fabianfred]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

[Jawnie]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

Yes, you can always help, regardless of the type of being. If you can not physically help, you can help mentally through aspirations prayers and dedicating merit on behalf of the particular being.

[huli]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

Yes, you can always help, regardless of the type of being. If you can not physically help, you can help mentally through aspirations prayers and dedicating merit on behalf of the particular being.

Jawnie,

Regarding your suggestions to help mentally, I have a hard time understanding how one goes about dedicating merit, and also what are aspirations prayers. May I ask a few questions?

Can a person dedicate merit on behalf of another being simply by resolving to do so?

Can a being be helped by praying, and if so, pray to whom?

Are aspirations only wishes?

Were these ways of helping another being taught by Buddha?

Are they moreso a part of the culture of Buddhism as it is practiced now?

Are they Mahayana practices?

If these two methods are ways that a person can "always help another being", I am very interested in learning more about them.

Thank you for your attention to my questions, if you have the time.

Huli

[Xangsamhua]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

Yes, you can always help, regardless of the type of being. If you can not physically help, you can help mentally through aspirations prayers and dedicating merit on behalf of the particular being.

Jawnie,

Regarding your suggestions to help mentally, I have a hard time understanding how one goes about dedicating merit, and also what are aspirations prayers. May I ask a few questions?

Can a person dedicate merit on behalf of another being simply by resolving to do so?

Can a being be helped by praying, and if so, pray to whom?

Are aspirations only wishes?

Were these ways of helping another being taught by Buddha?

Are they moreso a part of the culture of Buddhism as it is practiced now?

Are they Mahayana practices?

If these two methods are ways that a person can "always help another being", I am very interested in learning more about them.

Thank you for your attention to my questions, if you have the time.

Huli

Hello Huli

You asked the question of Jawnie, but if I can chip in with a thought or two ...

If one believes that the universe is a unified field of consciousness, or intelligence, then is it not reasonable to believe that thoughts and wishes can be effective within that field?

There are two things to keep in mind. One is that the field is unified - it is not a duality or plurality. You and I, him and her, me and it are, in reality, one. Second, the primordial reality underpinning the cosmos and its apparent but illusory manifoldness (maya) is consciousness, or intelligence.

This is Mahayana thinking, perhaps more especially Vajrayana. The Buddha did not encourage his disciples to go there, perhaps out of concern that they'd sit around all day splitting hairs. However, probably not long after the parinivana, some did, and the whole corpus of Buddhist philosophy developed from there, but mainly in Mahayana and Vajrayana schools (the latter encourages dialectics and debating among its sangha).

I may be wrong, but outside the Abhidhamma, I think there is no strong school of ontological or speculative philosophy or of mysticism in Theravada. It's still regarded as unhelpful in a rationalist tradition. Theravada is very much Applied Philosophy.

Apologies for jumping in. Jawnie may have a quite different and better informed response, but I've been thinking about this a bit. The following video (8 minutes) may be helpful, too.

[huli]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

Yes, you can always help, regardless of the type of being. If you can not physically help, you can help mentally through aspirations prayers and dedicating merit on behalf of the particular being.

Jawnie,

Regarding your suggestions to help mentally, I have a hard time understanding how one goes about dedicating merit, and also what are aspirations prayers. May I ask a few questions?

Can a person dedicate merit on behalf of another being simply by resolving to do so?

Can a being be helped by praying, and if so, pray to whom?

Are aspirations only wishes?

Were these ways of helping another being taught by Buddha?

Are they moreso a part of the culture of Buddhism as it is practiced now?

Are they Mahayana practices?

If these two methods are ways that a person can "always help another being", I am very interested in learning more about them.

Thank you for your attention to my questions, if you have the time.

Huli

Hello Huli

You asked the question of Jawnie, but if I can chip in with a thought or two ...

If one believes that the universe is a unified field of consciousness, or intelligence, then is it not reasonable to believe that thoughts and wishes can be effective within that field?

There are two things to keep in mind. One is that the field is unified - it is not a duality or plurality. You and I, him and her, me and it are, in reality, one. Second, the primordial reality underpinning the cosmos and its apparent but illusory manifoldness (maya) is consciousness, or intelligence.

This is Mahayana thinking, perhaps more especially Vajrayana. The Buddha did not encourage his disciples to go there, perhaps out of concern that they'd sit around all day splitting hairs. However, probably not long after the parinivana, some did, and the whole corpus of Buddhist philosophy developed from there, but mainly in Mahayana and Vajrayana schools (the latter encourages dialectics and debating among its sangha).

I may be wrong, but outside the Abhidhamma, I think there is no strong school of ontological or speculative philosophy or of mysticism in Theravada. It's still regarded as unhelpful in a rationalist tradition. Theravada is very much Applied Philosophy.

Apologies for jumping in. Jawnie may have a quite different and better informed response, but I've been thinking about this a bit. The following video (8 minutes) may be helpful, too.

Hi Xangsamhua

It is always good to hear your ideas, thanks.

I enjoyed the video of John Hagelin. I couldn't help thinking he sounds like an orthodox Hindu, with the Brahman/Atman concept and Universal Mind. To think that the Hindus came up with basically the same explanation thousands of years ago just sitting around pondering. Now, modern physics coming up with the same thing, wow. If two people come up with the same answer, it tends to give that answer credibility in my book.

I do think that "overcoming dualism" is another way of describing the Path and the Goal in Buddhism, and this is the same as accepting the unified field concept.

As you say, in a unified field it is reasonable to believe that thoughts and wishes can be effective within that field. However, even if it is reasonable, it is patently not what happens in this life of ours. Wishes and prayers are not answered, except rarely, and then you never know if it is just coincidence. People pray and wish not to die, and for world peace, but it does not work. Not that I can tell.

[weary]

I have noticed that John Hagelin crops up as the favourite scientist of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (TM, Transcendental Meditation) which, as I understand it, is an offshoot of the Hindu tradition. In adapting these concepts, Hagelin is not representing the mainstream of modern physicists. I guess it remains to be seen whether he is right or not. It certainly is an appealing idea.

[weary]

As you say, in a unified field it is reasonable to believe that thoughts and wishes can be effective within that field. However, even if it is reasonable, it is patently not what happens in this life of ours. Wishes and prayers are not answered, except rarely, and then you never know if it is just coincidence. People pray and wish not to die, and for world peace, but it does not work. Not that I can tell.

Hagelin and a fair number of other people truly believe that people with the right training could create world peace and stop terrorism.

He has won the Ignobel prize (a dubious badge of honour) for a study of his that appears to show fairly strong correlation between meditation practice in a particular crime ridden area, and the decline of violent crime. He also has an open appeal to the US government to employ 40,000 'peace workers' who have undergone a particular form of mind training, as a continuous effort of this magnitude, he claims, would be enough to stop terrorism without having to use any other means.

The TM proponents appear to believe that once enough people 'tune in', what earlier was though to be natural laws, can be bent, such as gravity. Google Yogic Flying if you want to learn more.

Edited August 15, 2012 by weary

[fabianfred]

I was fortunate once to be in the position to help a scorpion.....one of the big black ones with a body as thick as a finger and if extended stretching to a good six inches in length. It was after a heavy overnight rain in Chiangmai old city an in the early morning I noticed it trying to climb up the wall to escape the water. I managed to get it into a jam-jar and went and released it in the undergrowth some distance away....not much jungle in the city.

The only time I've seen one like that...mostly they are the small brown and white ones...with deadlier stings.

Feelgood factor...8/10 ....(not 10/10 because no really safe place to release it.)

Yes, you can always help, regardless of the type of being. If you can not physically help, you can help mentally through aspirations prayers and dedicating merit on behalf of the particular being.

Jawnie,

Regarding your suggestions to help mentally, I have a hard time understanding how one goes about dedicating merit, and also what are aspirations prayers. May I ask a few questions?

Can a person dedicate merit on behalf of another being simply by resolving to do so?

Can a being be helped by praying, and if so, pray to whom?

Are aspirations only wishes?

Were these ways of helping another being taught by Buddha?

Are they moreso a part of the culture of Buddhism as it is practiced now?

Are they Mahayana practices?

If these two methods are ways that a person can "always help another being", I am very interested in learning more about them.

Thank you for your attention to my questions, if you have the time.

Huli

In Theravada Buddhism one of the ways to make merit (of the 10 ways) is to share and dedicate you merit you just gained from an action such as giving alms or meditation or chanting etc. to other beings..

My teacher LP Jaran syas that merit from giving is only able to help beings in the Hungry ghost realm by providing them with food or clothing, but not strong enough to reach beings in the hell realms. Vipassana being the most difficult practice and therefore gaining the most merit is strong enough to reach those in the hell realms. Beings reborn in the human, heaven or animal realms are not able to receive our merit.

One very important thing about dedicating merits is to share them with enemies (beings which own karma we created with them in the past) because if they decide to forgive us then that karma is wiped away.

There are special chants done to share metta and dedicate merits...often done at the end of chanting sessions or meditation sessions or after giving alms or offerings to monks...in Thailand you often see them pouring water in a little ritual which has similar meaning.

But one doesn't need to know the correct chants as you can just as well make them up simply like this....

May I be happy and free from suffering,

may all beings be happy and free from suffering

may this merit go to my parents, may they be happy

may this merit go to my teachers, may they be happy

may this merit go to my relatives, may they be happy

may this merit go to all beings in the heaven realms, may they be happy

may this merit go to all beings in the preta realms, may they be happy

may this merit go to all my enemies, may they be happy

may this merit go to all beings, may they be happy

[ChrisB87]

Why not? The Buddha taught compassion.

[beautifulthailand99]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

[Tchooptip]

As I recall, beetles also get trapped on their back. whenever i correct the situation, they just fall over again.. apparently, their legs are too long.. so I just leave beetles.

I would not