Culture Clash

[LaoPo]

ps: just pm'ed you in another case.

LaoPo

Don't you mean bag?

yes....bag the 'case' about the bag

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

<snip>

/Mod Edit - Unsavoury comments deleted.

Please keep to the subject.

Last warning to all... if flaming and other off-topic comments persist, this thread will be closed and warnings/holidays issued.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Jai Dee

[sriracha john]

*nevermind*

Edited January 30, 2006 by sriracha john

[Boo]

How do u know she was thai? Did u hear her speak?

Maybe she was from europe or america but of asian decent?

[Patsycat]

I like to have white bits - shows me how palid i was when i went away!!

[Godders]

Lying around topless in Thailand (and lots of other countries with less "liberal" attitudes than those in the UK) is not only disrespectful but daft and downright dangerous - and not only on remote beaches, either. Don't you read your own newspapers or watch the TV? Lamai was the scene of the very recent brutal rape and murder of a British woman holidaymaker by two local fishermen who risked a death sentence to slake their lust. The unfortunate lady in question was fully dressed and doing nothing more provocative than talking on the phone to her Mum, who heard the screams as the killers struck. There have been numerous similar incidents in Thailand in recent years. Need one say more?

[britmaveric]

How do u know she was thai? Did u hear her speak?

Maybe she was from europe or america but of asian decent?

Seriously doubt she was Thai - hard enough getting a bathing suit on - can't imagine any thai lady displaying herself in public for any thai lad to see.

[Misplaced]

How do u know she was thai? Did u hear her speak?

Maybe she was from europe or america but of asian decent?

Seriously doubt she was Thai - hard enough getting a bathing suit on - can't imagine any thai lady displaying herself in public for any thai lad to see.

Why is it that Thai ladies refused to wear a bikini while in Thailand but willing to do so in US?

Never can understand this... I think their bodies looks very nice in a bikini so why not show it off.. Granted, not as lean and long as farang women, but never the less, still look nice

[somchai jones]

On seeing European women barebreasted on the beaches of Thailand, after initially wieghing up the quality of their mamories, I feel embarrased for them.

The Thaisl simply think it's 'nagliet' (sorry if the transliteration is poor) meaning ugly/vulgar.

[sriracha john]

How do u know she was thai? Did u hear her speak?

Maybe she was from europe or america but of asian decent?

Seriously doubt she was Thai - hard enough getting a bathing suit on - can't imagine any thai lady displaying herself in public for any thai lad to see.

Why is it that Thai ladies refused to wear a bikini while in Thailand but willing to do so in US?

Never can understand this... I think their bodies looks very nice in a bikini so why not show it off.. Granted, not as lean and long as farang women, but never the less, still look nice

Why Thais do wear bikinis in the US and outside of Thailand is what

this whole thread is about.

They follow the local custom... too bad outsiders coming to Thailand

don't do the same.

[somchai jones]

Why Thais do wear bikinis in the US and outside of Thailand is what

this whole thread is about.

They follow the local custom... too bad outsiders coming to Thailand

don't do the same.

Agreed. It's as simple as that.

[Howe A Dee]

while there is little doubt that Thais have a well developed sense of body modesty, its historical roots look murky to me. i don't claim to have expert insight into Thai culture but a cursory look at art depicting life in traditional pre-western Thailand suggests that thai squeamishness over topless women is not based in deep tradition. Not so surprising considering the nature of the people, the climate and topography of the land. Also, I've spent months at a time in the countryside of Issan and I can report that bouncing braless breasts of all ages under flimsy thin cotton tops is absolutely the norm. True, they tend to get strapped in when the gals head into town but that hardly supports the notion that this stems from deep tradition, and really, anyone who believes going braless is offensive to traditional Thai culture hasn't thought this through.

Speaking of western inventions let's consider the colonial missionary, and their goal to enlighten the savages and heretics to latent feelings of shame and embarrassment, only to be replaced generations later by topless beach goers. The developing world is riddled with peoples suffering from such cultural whiplash and it seems at least possible that Thailand fits this mold. The historical depth of Thai modesty becomes more suspect when you consider how nicely it dovetails with 19th century europe. Again I'm no expert on Thai history but it seems likely that over the years western missionaries and their muslim rivals have sold Thais a bill of goods that may not "belong" here. Meanwhile the west began moving away from pious modesty until the 1960's when the hinges of victorian values and hypocrisies were completely taken off. And this brings into view the patronizing assumption that traditional societies do not want, need or deserve change and influence from other cultures. a few years ago, there was a movement among native american tribes, where the elders, in an effort to bring more social stability suggested the tribes go back to the rules of traditional life. This movement was more or less snuffed out my the women of the tribe who made it clear there were many things about traditional tribal life that were NEVER coming back. That such a silver lining exists in the aftermath of cultural annihilation is a compelling testimony to the desperate condition of women in traditional societies.

One night during my stay in Issan my thai hosts were driving me into town when we noticed a young woman being knocked off her motorbike by an enraged young man. They had a brief argument before he punched her square in the face, I was sandwiched in the back seat and my hosts would not let me out of the car and were clearly unwilling to get involved. I was howling as we pulled away while the woman fell to the ground as the beating continued. But it's not as if we left her alone, there had to be at least a dozen other people standing around watching the assault and doing nothing. I eventually reasoned that in the end there was little i could do anyway. Suppose I did lead an intervention, what then? Likely, the insult to her abuser would no doubt lead to a future and more brutal attack after I went away. Most distressing of all was the apparent consensus that if she didn't deserve the beating he was at least, to some extent entitled to blow off steam by pounding on her. To this day the experience makes the hairs on my neck stand straight and has left me far less sacrosanct about Thai values.

So i think it is worth making a distinction between respecting another culture and honoring it. In the case of a man publicly beating his wife, as hard as it was, i had no choice but to respect the culture and leave things be. But there is a limit to "when in Rome..." and I doubt anyone here will permit a farang man to beat his thai wife and maintain a "minor wife" in the interest of cultural assimilation. As for the topless sunbather, so long as she is not ridiculing Thais for the ridiculous practice of bathing in street clothes, I say she is disrespecting no one.

In the case of a recent rape of a western tourist in samui some always express the ignorant opinion that she was most likely inappropriately dressed and somehow "asked for it". But the more thoughtful realize, the beasts who attacked her likely have perpetuated their crime on a number of Thai ladies before making the fateful error of turning on a tourist who most likely would have been raped no matter what she wore.

That lays bare the double standard within the double standard of Thai society, and if you are serious about honoring traditional Thai culture then you need to immerse yourself in the intricate nuance of Thai social hierarchy and keep it all straight as to who is on top of who. though my birthright grants me a high starting point, making the study of Thai social strata more appealing, it does not make it anymore interesting but thats just me.

so should i be so lucky to encounter a topless woman in LOS (like most Thais i rarely get to the beach) rather than wag a finger at the visitor, i hope to explain to any confused Thai that the topless farang woman comes from a country where women have achieved something that may be hard for them to relate to, a status equal to men. women are the heads of state, heads of large businesses, heads of religion and make many decisions for themselves including what to wear to the beach. This doesn't mean a Thai need honor the practice but they can learn about and respect other cultures as well as anybody. Who knows it could be a good thing.

meanwhile i'll save my outrage for insidious farang behavior that Thais seem fairly oblivious to. i first encountered it on a night train, armed with their own simple spiritual hierarchy of the saved & unsaved and perhaps paving the way for future cultural whiplash, they practiced the thai pronunciation for words like "salvation" & "paradise". weapons in a chruch funded attack on traditional thai Buddhism, supported on the air with warm and fuzzy TV ads, these psychic thugs roam the hills and valleys, trolling the desperate with fables of ascension. sweet jesus! i hate these bastards! of course i hate them wherever i go, that brings me to my final point. more often than not, the things that piss ex-pats off overseas are the same thing that piss them off at home.

[kat]

I agree with just about everything you're saying here. But, at the end of the day, when I'm on a beach in Thailand, I acknowledge basic Thai values about decorum and respect. And the history of when these "Thai values" were ushered in (not all by missionaries by the way), doesn't matter if I am disregarding the comfort levels of Thai families near me. In Europe, Thais should know or learn the hard way not to jump the queue. In Thailand, Westerners should learn ....

[sbk]

Interesting post Howe A Dee, and, to be relevant to the topic: yes, as far as I am aware, in truly "traditional" culture in Thailand, 19th and early 20th century, rural women did not wear shirts of any kind, so, were, essentially topless.

There are double standards in every culture, as you have so rightly pointed out.

Well, Id love to post more, but have to run!

[seonai]

A woman came into my small bar with three men last night wearing only a tiny bikini. After I had served them politely I asked her to cover her body and explained why. She was put out but reluctantly did it.

[nonthaburial]

Personally I am totally against topless bathing etc and certainly more so here in Thailand with the cultural mix etc.

However a rather amusing story, way back in the late seventies or early eighties ( Parkinsons you know) I was staying at a very grand hotel in Hua Hin where a youngish German lady had decided that whatever the staff or management of the hotel thought, she was going to go topless.

She did this for a number of days lying around the gardens next to the beach, she didnt listen to advice nor polite requests to cover up and very selfishly continued her sunning of the boobs!

Now this hotel had a very good tourist attraction in the shape of a small/ish elephant that used to be taken around the grounds at certain times of the day for people to feed with the usual bananas etc.

Whilst negotiating around this arrogant self centred lady, the elephant decided that a touch of nipple was more to its liking than the usual that was offered.

Well to see this woman hurtling around the grounds with the elephant in pursuit filled the other residents (and staff) with much merriment. Guess who never went topless again ?

By the way, the Mahout was looking very pleased with himnself and his "baby"

[Patsycat]

Great story, served her right!!

[robitusson]

Personally I am totally against topless bathing etc and certainly more so here in Thailand with the cultural mix etc.

However a rather amusing story, way back in the late seventies or early eighties ( Parkinsons you know) I was staying at a very grand hotel in Hua Hin where a youngish German lady had decided that whatever the staff or management of the hotel thought, she was going to go topless.

She did this for a number of days lying around the gardens next to the beach, she didnt listen to advice nor polite requests to cover up and very selfishly continued her sunning of the boobs!

Now this hotel had a very good tourist attraction in the shape of a small/ish elephant that used to be taken around the grounds at certain times of the day for people to feed with the usual bananas etc.

Whilst negotiating around this arrogant self centred lady, the elephant decided that a touch of nipple was more to its liking than the usual that was offered.

Well to see this woman hurtling around the grounds with the elephant in pursuit filled the other residents (and staff) with much merriment. Guess who never went topless again ?

By the way, the Mahout was looking very pleased with himnself and his "baby"

What's up with the Germans and nudism?

[gisele]

[sriracha john]

[monochaser]

I see lovely european girls topless on the beach in Phuket all the time. They clearly don't think anything of it. I was even taking videos and photos on the beach and they don't cover up. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 girls now but rather many girls. I have the photos/video footage to prove it. These girls would be lying around, standing and frolicking waist deep in the water. I was pretty blown away by it cause I've never been to Europe and in the US, the chicks don't do this. Highly enjoyable to witness

[sriracha john]

I see lovely european girls topless on the beach in Phuket all the time. They clearly don't think anything of it. I was even taking videos and photos on the beach and they don't cover up. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 girls now but rather many girls. I have the photos/video footage to prove it. These girls would be lying around, standing and frolicking waist deep in the water. I was pretty blown away by it cause I've never been to Europe and in the US, the chicks don't do this. Highly enjoyable to witness

tsk.. tsk... shame on you for depriving Thais of an income.....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=395911

[gisele]

I see lovely european girls topless on the beach in Phuket all the time. They clearly don't think anything of it. I was even taking videos and photos on the beach and they don't cover up. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 girls now but rather many girls. I have the photos/video footage to prove it. These girls would be lying around, standing and frolicking waist deep in the water. I was pretty blown away by it cause I've never been to Europe and in the US, the chicks don't do this. Highly enjoyable to witness

[greg.d]

"When in Rome do as the Romans do" you don't see Thai's blatently going topless (if they do it will be done suttely, somewhere out of the way)

So why do these girls do it in Thailand?

I think it is acceptable to do in Europe and other countries where the natives also go topless, but it just isn't the done thing in Thailand...... even in such heavily Farang populated areas such as Phuket, Samui and Pattaya etc.

Have some Decorum please ladies

I must add that generally it is a beautiful site to behold (better still hold) but not in Thailand

[PREM-R]

Does anyone know if topless/nud_e sunbathing is actually ILLEGAL in Thailand. You would have thought that that if it was 'the boys in brown' would have been around collecting donations and making the 'violators' cover up

[monochaser]

all that topless sunbathing I witnessed was in Phuket on my 1st trip here in 1999. Let me tell you that these were not old ugly hags I was seeing. They were you and hot Europeans and I was like a kid in a candy store. May all this toplessness continue

[thaibebop]

all that topless sunbathing I witnessed was in Phuket on my 1st trip here in 1999. Let me tell you that these were not old ugly hags I was seeing. They were you and hot Europeans and I was like a kid in a candy store. May all this toplessness continue

Great.

Another one of my country men let loose on the world to disrespect other cultures. Yeah, we need more of you out there buddy.

[siamesekitty]

Does anyone know if topless/nud_e sunbathing is actually ILLEGAL in Thailand. You would have thought that that if it was 'the boys in brown' would have been around collecting donations and making the 'violators' cover up

Not sure how they rule on topless sunbathing, but "indecent exposure" in Thailand gets you a fine of up to 500 baht.

[ourmanflint]

Going topless on a beach doesn't hurt anyone...fact!! The few Thais that frequent beaches are there for a reason, to leer!

But... I am totally against people strutting round in their swimming costumes away from the beach, this is where most tourists are going to come in contact with ordinary Thais and they should show some respect, just like they should anywhere else.

There really is nothing culturally wrong with being topless, people do it all over the world, it is purely a "civilised" and possibly religious snob thing, where the so called civilised upper stratum look down on all those below.. dictating social etiquette.. complete twaddle!

[sriracha john]

all that topless sunbathing I witnessed was in Phuket on my 1st trip here in 1999. Let me tell you that these were not old ugly hags I was seeing. They were you and hot Europeans and I was like a kid in a candy store. May all this toplessness continue

Just remember to let the Thais do all the filming...