Political Conflict Shifts To Hague Court

[phiphidon]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be,

You know him that well?

http://www.thaivisa....t/#entry5546045

http://books.google....d karma&f=false

Neither of which quotes pin Thaksin directly to a kill order of drug suspects at all so what was your point?

[phiphidon]

Face it Don, this man that you claim not to support when challenged on it, but so obviously do, is nothing more than an egotistical, mass murdering megalomaniac and a pathological liar.

Not the sort of chap I would even accept a free beer from.

A clean conscience is a comfortable pillow, good night.

Do you have a comprehension problem?

Now will you get it through your head just for a second that I don't hoover up every little bit of info up as fact. I query some of it but just because I do, it does not make me a 100% supporter of the subject I am querying.

[Thaddeus]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be,

You know him that well?

http://www.thaivisa....t/#entry5546045

http://books.google....d karma&f=false

Neither of which quotes pin Thaksin directly to a kill order of drug suspects at all so what was your point?

Obviously as much point as showing a blind man red cucumber.

[Thaddeus]

Face it Don, this man that you claim not to support when challenged on it, but so obviously do, is nothing more than an egotistical, mass murdering megalomaniac and a pathological liar.

Not the sort of chap I would even accept a free beer from.

A clean conscience is a comfortable pillow, good night.

Do you have a comprehension problem?

Now will you get it through your head just for a second that I don't hoover up every little bit of info up as fact. I query some of it but just because I do, it does not make me a 100% supporter of the subject I am querying.

I have no problem at all with comprehension, as I stated quite clearly, you strenuously deny it when challenged.

As you have just shown.

And now thou doth protest too much, methinks..

[tlansford]

Face it Don, this man that you claim not to support when challenged on it, but so obviously do, is nothing more than an egotistical, mass murdering megalomaniac and a pathological liar.

Not the sort of chap I would even accept a free beer from.

A clean conscience is a comfortable pillow, good night.

Do you have a comprehension problem?

Now will you get it through your head just for a second that I don't hoover up every little bit of info up as fact. I query some of it but just because I do, it does not make me a 100% supporter of the subject I am querying.

I have no problem at all with comprehension, as I stated quite clearly, you strenuously deny it when challenged.

As you have just shown.

And now thou doth protest too much, methinks..

and the pointy member does what he does best, ... me thinks

baiting...

[rubl]

After the excursion may I be excused for returning to the topic?

"On a key agenda, three MPs, Weng Tojirakarn, Kokaew Pikulthong and Jarupan Kuldiloke, filed a petition on the red shirts' behalf, calling for the government to recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in a one-off case paving way for the ICC hearing on the 2010 bloodshed."

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5535830

The newsflash was kind, it could have mentioned "Pheu Thai party list MPs and UDD leaders" and it could have wondered a bit more loudly about the novel and undoubtedly legally novel point of "one-off recognition of the jurisdiction of the ICC", apart from how the ICC will look upon being gracefully granted jurisdiction on a single case and being told off on anything else.

BTW, the ICC seems to be a wee bit busy with a few African cases, including Libya and probably soon Syria. It may get to "don't call us, we'll call you"

[Buchholz]

After the excursion may I be excused for returning to the topic?

"On a key agenda, three MPs, Weng Tojirakarn, Kokaew Pikulthong and Jarupan Kuldiloke, filed a petition on the red shirts' behalf, calling for the government to recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in a one-off case paving way for the ICC hearing on the 2010 bloodshed."

http://www.thaivisa....25#entry5535830

The newsflash was kind, it could have mentioned "Pheu Thai party list MPs and UDD leaders" and it could have wondered a bit more loudly about the novel and undoubtedly legally novel point of "one-off recognition of the jurisdiction of the ICC", apart from how the ICC will look upon being gracefully granted jurisdiction on a single case and being told off on anything else.

BTW, the ICC seems to be a wee bit busy with a few African cases, including Libya and probably soon Syria. It may get to "don't call us, we'll call you"

The Red Shirt MPs want to make ratifying a treaty a "one-off" situation.

The numbskulls are so far out they don't realize how idiotic they sound.

Well done, Pheu Thai, for choosing these misfits for office.

The ICC is not my father

.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Buchholz

[hellodolly]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be,

You know him that well?

http://www.thaivisa....t/#entry5546045

http://books.google....d karma&f=false

I agree that no one can tie Thaksin to giving a direct order to kill any one. But as the Prime minister he could have given the order to stop the killing. Long before it became the natural way to carry on the war against drugs. He could have given limitations to be used when he declared the war.

He could have condemned it but no he did nothing to stop it. Or even indicate it was wrong.

On second thought I bet there is people who could condemn him for it but they are not going to step forward as they were the recipient's of the order's and not exactly ready to put there neck in the noose.

[animatic]

quote name='Moruya' timestamp='1344133126' post='5545894'

If it means that thousands of deaths are investigated properly, there may well be a few negligible objections but at the end of the day everyone wants the truth to out.

Agree, and if a full and accurate invetsigation is completed and if finds fault anywhere / any person / any party, then appropriate legal actions should be taken. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

I believe that as Thailand is not a "States Party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court", similar to USA, Russia, China etc. any outcome, even if evidence becomes available on which to make a judgment, is in no way binding on Thailand. So basically it's all just a lot of political hot air and a waste of money.

The key part of Amsterdam's submittal to the ICC is that Abhisit is a British citizen and therefore subject to the ICC jurisdiction.

TH

http://www.thaivisa....e/page__st__125

But Abhisit is a Thai, born to fully Thai parents, in another country.

He never took British citizenship, he is 100% Thai.

This is just Amsterdam clutching at straws for the benefit of Red Shirt masses,

who don't understand the point in enough cases to at it has traction.

[Thaddeus]

\\

and the pointy member does what he does best, ... me thinks

baiting...

Just get used to it Tom, your're a bit of a git, just another slab of immovable concrete in the Taksin machine, it doesn't matter to you what he says or does, his word is gold.

btw, there is no space between me and thinks.

[Orac]

The key part of Amsterdam's submittal to the ICC is that Abhisit is a British citizen and therefore subject to the ICC jurisdiction.

TH

http://www.thaivisa....e/page__st__125

But Abhisit is a Thai, born to fully Thai parents, in another country.

He never took British citizenship, he is 100% Thai.

This is just Amsterdam clutching at straws for the benefit of Red Shirt masses,

who don't understand the point in enough cases to at it has traction.

Abhisit never took British citizenship because he already had it on the basis of been born in the UK though I would agree using it as the basis of an ICC is dubious.

http://www.guardian....ish-nationality

[tlansford]

\\

and the pointy member does what he does best, ... me thinks

baiting...

Just get used to it Tom, your're a bit of a git, just another slab of immovable concrete in the Taksin machine, it doesn't matter to you what he says or does, his word is gold.

btw, there is no space between me and thinks.

so you bait again just to prove the point.

Good bye

[Nickymaster]

Interesting but important to note the unofficial and partial footnote comment.

That there is evidence that links Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings i don't think is really of much dispute. Even a five-year old could make the case. I don't think the problem was lack of evidence, but rather lack of will from certain quarters. Thaksin is clearly not the only one who would be fingered. He is the one however who was at the top of the pyramid, the one who had the power to both initiate policy and to cease it. This didn't happen in one day. If he wasn't the one who green-lighted it (i absolutely think he was), he certainly didn't red-light it either. He took the credit for the good things that happened under his rule (yes, good things did happen), he (and his fans) shouldn't have any trouble with him taking the blame for the bad things... or at least a healthy portion of the blame.

"That there is evidence that links Thaksin and his government to the extrajudicial killings i don't think is really of much dispute. Even a five-year old could make the case."

Interesting, perhaps you could take a look through Thaksins Prime Ministers Order No. 29/2546 Re: The Fight to Overcome Narcotic Drugs and point out this "clear link to the extrajudicial killings" that "Even a five-year old could make the case."

http://www.article2....le.php/0203/83/

You might want to look at the comments from individual Police Officers and the Minister of the Interior of the time if you want to base your "evidence" on hyperbole, not an unusual tactic on this forum..........

Interesting link but important to note that it is both an unofficial and a partial copy of a document.

Funny the way Thaksin's supporters switch from one minute, arguing that the war on drugs was ok because the public supported it, to, in the next breath, actually, don't you know, Thaksin can't be linked to it.. and he was oblivious to what was going on, and all the people who were getting killed.

What a joke. Anyone who lived here during the "war on drugs" knows exactly how pivotal his role in it was. Denying it is like denying that Bush had anything to do with the "war on terror".

Did you read enough to see what was left out, nothing of importance. I love the way the anti "thaksins supporters" cherry pick what they question and assume that all dissent to their party line is therefore in support of the "opposition". Now will you get it through your head just for a second that I don't hoover up every little bit of info up as fact. I query some of it but just because I do, it does not make me a 100% supporter of the subject I am querying.

Rivalex states cold blank that a 5 year old could pin Thaksin to the extrajudicial murders. I say that is wrong. I am accused of supporting thaksin and denying the deaths ever happened. BS. Look at the only (according to the website itself) english translation of the orders he gave. Nothing there to pin him down - As I said.

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be, I feel. IMHO he never gave the order to murder anyone, the police officers did that, but if anybody wants to say the buck stops with him they would be mistaken and we can't say anymore on that.

I do wonder about the depth of feeling for the victims in this "war" - I wonder if the same outpourings of grief have ever been shown for the victims of May 1992, the Thammasat University massacre, the 3000 or so killed in the 70's during the communist witch hunts, the 300 odd who died in the '47 coup, the victims of 2009 / 2010, the 6000 in the south of Thailand ?

I've deliberately left out Tak Bai and Krue Sae as they are usually used as sticks against Thaksin.

You still don't get it. Please answer 1 simple question: If it is so clear that AV has given orders to kill, why doesn't Thailand become a full member of the ICC because that is THE ONLY WAY the ICC could consider investigating this case.

1 simple question.

[jerrysteve]

Despite any Hague Court ruling, it is doubtful whether either party will follow any decision.

History here, as in most areas makes the rules.

In this case concerning Thailand and its governing bodies, past performance is most definitely a prediction for poor future performance.

[harrry]

Agree, and if a full and accurate invetsigation is completed and if finds fault anywhere / any person / any party, then appropriate legal actions should be taken. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

I believe that as Thailand is not a "States Party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court", similar to USA, Russia, China etc. any outcome, even if evidence becomes available on which to make a judgment, is in no way binding on Thailand. So basically it's all just a lot of political hot air and a waste of money.

The key part of Amsterdam's submittal to the ICC is that Abhisit is a British citizen and therefore subject to the ICC jurisdiction.

TH

http://www.thaivisa....e/page__st__125

Is Montenegro a signatory?

[Buchholz]

Thats all very well, but people being caught up in the moment seem to have forgotten that Thailand is not a Signatory to the ICC and therefore no investigations can be taken on unless the "defendant" is from a country which is a signatory. Last time I looked Thaksin was born in Thailand which is not a signatory whereas Abhisit was born in the UK which is.

Is Montenegro a signatory?

Yes, Montenegro is.

So is Uganda.

Nicaragua, however, is not.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ASP/states+parties/

.

[rixalex]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be, I feel. IMHO he never gave the order to murder anyone, the police officers did that, but if anybody wants to say the buck stops with him they would be mistaken and we can't say anymore on that.

If what it takes for you to be satisfied that Thaksin bears responsibility (be it large or be it small) for those thousands of deaths, is a direct order to kill from him nicely and neatly written down on an official document, then you might be out of luck (or should that be in luck?). It's very obvious though that after the war on drugs program was initiated, by Thaksin and his TRT party, along with those promises of eradicating drugs from Thailand, that the police had extended powers in terms of dealing with suspects; that the police were taking a different approach that was far more hard-line and that included in a great number of cases, shooting to kill. And as stated, this wasn't a one off incident we are talking about, or something that occurred over a few days, taking everyone by surprise, this was ongoing for months. If Thaksin hadn't meant for the police to start operating in the way that they did, he had plenty of opportunity to put a stop to it. But he didn't.

To be honest, having a discussion in which it is argued that Thaksin bears no responsibility for any of this from the program that was hailed pretty much as being his own brainchild... that he had no idea of the slaughtering that was involved of people who were merely suspects yet to be charged, let alone face trial... that if he was aware, he was quite powerless to do anything about it... is about as ridiculous an argument as there is, in my opinion, and does nothing of help to your claim, perpetually made, of still remaining critically minded regards Thaksin. That ship has clearly sailed.

[Nickymaster]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be, I feel. IMHO he never gave the order to murder anyone, the police officers did that, but if anybody wants to say the buck stops with him they would be mistaken and we can't say anymore on that.

If what it takes for you to be satisfied that Thaksin bears responsibility (be it large or be it small) for those thousands of deaths, is a direct order to kill from him nicely and neatly written down on an official document, then you might be out of luck (or should that be in luck?). It's very obvious though that after the war on drugs program was initiated, by Thaksin and his TRT party, along with those promises of eradicating drugs from Thailand, that the police had extended powers in terms of dealing with suspects; that the police were taking a different approach that was far more hard-line and that included in a great number of cases, shooting to kill. And as stated, this wasn't a one off incident we are talking about, or something that occurred over a few days, taking everyone by surprise, this was ongoing for months. If Thaksin hadn't meant for the police to start operating in the way that they did, he had plenty of opportunity to put a stop to it. But he didn't.

To be honest, having a discussion in which it is argued that Thaksin bears no responsibility for any of this from the program that was hailed pretty much as being his own brainchild... that he had no idea of the slaughtering that was involved of people who were merely suspects yet to be charged, let alone face trial... that if he was aware, he was quite powerless to do anything about it... is about as ridiculous an argument as there is, in my opinion, and does nothing of help to your claim, perpetually made, of still remaining critically minded regards Thaksin. That ship has clearly sailed.

Nice 1 rixalex. Couldn't agree more.

As I argued earlier, I challenge this government to put forward the idea for Thailand to become a signatory to the ICC.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Nickymaster

[Soutpeel]

But Abhisit is a Thai, born to fully Thai parents, in another country.

He never took British citizenship, he is 100% Thai.

This is just Amsterdam clutching at straws for the benefit of Red Shirt masses,

who don't understand the point in enough cases to at it has traction.

Even if he has/had British citizenship..he is still 100% Thai as well

[SuneeTH]

ICC must be making a killing, just from Thailand alone.

[Nickymaster]

This Government is trying everything to avoid the victims of this slaughtering receiving justice. They will also try their very best not to pay compensation. All political decisions.

If 1 victim's killer is punished or if 1 victim receives compensation, the door for Thaksin to go the Holland is open.

But....... the cowards in this PT government will NEVER become a signatory to the ICC.

Thaksin, PT and the Red leaders: "If you want the ICC to investigate AV, become a signatory! If you don't want to become a signatory, shut up and stop fooling your Red supporters!"

[SuneeTH]

This Government is trying everything to avoid the victims of this slaughtering receiving justice. They will also try their very best not to pay compensation. All political decisions.

If 1 victim's killer is punished or if 1 victim receives compensation, the door for Thaksin to go the Holland is open.

But....... the cowards in this PT government will NEVER become a signatory to the ICC.

Thaksin, PT and the Red leaders: "If you want the ICC to investigate AV, become a signatory! If you don't want to become a signatory, shut up and stop fooling your Red supporters!"

Being a signatory member, mean giving Thai temple land to the poor Khmer Hun Sen.

We are no long as stupid as we were in the 1960s.

Farang please don't trick us anymore, we won't fall into the same trap twice.

[Nickymaster]

This Government is trying everything to avoid the victims of this slaughtering receiving justice. They will also try their very best not to pay compensation. All political decisions.

If 1 victim's killer is punished or if 1 victim receives compensation, the door for Thaksin to go the Holland is open.

But....... the cowards in this PT government will NEVER become a signatory to the ICC.

Thaksin, PT and the Red leaders: "If you want the ICC to investigate AV, become a signatory! If you don't want to become a signatory, shut up and stop fooling your Red supporters!"

Being a signatory member, mean giving Thai temple land to the poor Khmer Hun Sen.

We are no long as stupid as we were in the 1960s.

Farang please don't trick us anymore, we won't fall into the same trap twice.

What has the temple story to do with the ICC? Or are you just making a trick comment?

[whybother]

What has the temple story to do with the ICC? Or are you just making a trick comment?

He's trolling. It's what he does.

[Moruya]

What a can of worms Thaksin and Amsterdam have opened.

This could see Thaksin imprisoned for life in a foreign jail.

[rixalex]

What a can of worms Thaksin and Amsterdam have opened.

This could see Thaksin imprisoned for life in a foreign jail.

Nice idea but i think we might just be getting ahead of ourselves. I'll eat som tam pla ra the day that happens.

[jayboy]

What a can of worms Thaksin and Amsterdam have opened.

I agree though perhaps with different consequences than you suggest.

Although the initiative won't get anywhere (and its proposers in fact already know that) hypothetically international scrutiny of the drugs war including who supported it in knowledge "rough justice" was being administered, is unlikely to be an inviting prospect for many influential people - not just Thaksin.

[Moruya]

What a can of worms Thaksin and Amsterdam have opened.

I agree though perhaps with different consequences than you suggest.

Although the initiative won't get anywhere (and its proposers in fact already know that) hypothetically international scrutiny of the drugs war including who supported it in knowledge "rough justice" was being administered, is unlikely to be an inviting prospect for many influential people - not just Thaksin.

Aye. Time will tell, and it won't be quick.

The other angle is the wedge between the dems and the police will be wider.

Also interesting to note no comment from the Red and PTP parties

[waza]

I'm not stupid and neither is he - if anybody can pin Thaksin directly to a kill order I will be extremely suprised and so would he be, I feel. IMHO he never gave the order to murder anyone, the police officers did that, but if anybody wants to say the buck stops with him they would be mistaken and we can't say anymore on that.

If what it takes for you to be satisfied that Thaksin bears responsibility (be it large or be it small) for those thousands of deaths, is a direct order to kill from him nicely and neatly written down on an official document, then you might be out of luck (or should that be in luck?). It's very obvious though that after the war on drugs program was initiated, by Thaksin and his TRT party, along with those promises of eradicating drugs from Thailand, that the police had extended powers in terms of dealing with suspects; that the police were taking a different approach that was far more hard-line and that included in a great number of cases, shooting to kill. And as stated, this wasn't a one off incident we are talking about, or something that occurred over a few days, taking everyone by surprise, this was ongoing for months. If Thaksin hadn't meant for the police to start operating in the way that they did, he had plenty of opportunity to put a stop to it. But he didn't.

To be honest, having a discussion in which it is argued that Thaksin bears no responsibility for any of this from the program that was hailed pretty much as being his own brainchild... that he had no idea of the slaughtering that was involved of people who were merely suspects yet to be charged, let alone face trial... that if he was aware, he was quite powerless to do anything about it... is about as ridiculous an argument as there is, in my opinion, and does nothing of help to your claim, perpetually made, of still remaining critically minded regards Thaksin. That ship has clearly sailed.

Implied consent is consent which is not expressly granted by a person, but rather inferred from a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation (or in some cases, by a person's silence or inaction). http://en.wikipedia....Implied_consent

implied consent

n. consent when surrounding circumstances exist which would lead a reasonable person to believe that this consent had been given, although no direct, express or explicit words of agreement had been uttered. Examples: a) a "contract" based on the fact that one person has been doing a particular thing and the other person expects him/her to continue

http://dictionary.la...px?selected=904

EG: Thaksin's "war on drugs" campaign in 2003 resulted in the extrajudicial killing of more than 2,500 people. Although local and international media reported and recorded hundreds of cases of police officials shooting and killing unarmed civilians - always in self-defense according to official accounts - to date not one Thai official has been prosecuted or even reprimanded for his or her role in the unprecedented orgy of violence. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HJ13Ae01.html

The King requested a full inquiry into all drug related deaths - a request celebrated by Human Rights and Health agencies. However the investigation is not going to be conducted by an independent source, so it is widely believed that the police and government agencies will be exonerated. The King also tactfully attempted to tell the PM that, while victory may be claimed, the drug war is far from over. PM Thaksin accepted the admonishment as a learning tool and promised to execute the King's wishes. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/thai-drug-war.htm

Edited August 8, 2012 by waza

[Nickymaster]

What has the temple story to do with the ICC? Or are you just making a trick comment?

He's trolling. It's what he does.

Ah ok. He is the funny guy.