High-Speed Rail Carries High Price Tag: Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

I fail too see why this article, or the economist's opinion is wrong! Why don't you explain what you mean!

It starts by talking about consensus, then states clearly that there is no consensus. There is no beginning middle or conclusion, the tenses give no context to the time frames of this consensus.

then it leads into the costs of maintenance as being something that brings disheartening issues, as though one should expect to get a train network that needs no maintenance?????

[fxe1200]

"we should first build double-track railroads before thinking about high-speed trains" says Nakorn somebody, saying about the only sensible thing in the hole article.

As I keep saying whenever this topic comes up, and as any sane transport planner would say, Thailand needs only to upgrade to normal express train standard with double tracks, of the kind that has existed in Europe for about a century. At the moment, it has a railway system which runs at about the speed of the mid-Victorian railways.

Investing in high-speed trains would to be miss out the stage of development that is really needed in order to create an absurdly over-the-top system --- and probably a financially failed system -- in relation to Thailand's real needs.

Absolutely right! Now I do need in between 16 and 18hours to travel from Hat Yai to Bangkok. A regular, "D-Zug", not the fast "Intercity" in Germany does it in 9 hours. If the Thai government just would redo the current tracks to a regular standard and for sure have two tracks instead of one, everything would be fine, and the trains would finally stop to rattle. And in a couple of years Thailand would be able to run even faster trains using the newly updated tracks.

[Nigel1500]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

Would be easier to just route the train through towns, as they do in Europe.

Of course this is what would happen. The article fails to consider that European rail has a 150 year history, maybe more. Rail in Thailand is only post-war. The article is full of politics and devoid of any facts about HSR.

[Nigel1500]

Oo but i thought you guys we're going down to High Speed rails Mart and getting a big discount?

Id rather fly upside down in an open cockpit plane then get on a Chinese made train. I mean look at this crap boxes you call trains already and you want to go hi tech? Why dont you try fixing the crap we already have in the city.

Do we really need disrespectful posts like these? At least have a bit of class, man!

[dcutman]

Is this the most badly written article in the history of journalism?

I fail too see why this article, or the economist's opinion is wrong! Why don't you explain what you mean!

It starts by talking about consensus, then states clearly that there is no consensus. There is no beginning middle or conclusion, the tenses give no context to the time frames of this consensus.

then it leads into the costs of maintenance as being something that brings disheartening issues, as though one should expect to get a train network that needs no maintenance?????

Yes you are correct on your critique of this article. But this is the Nation, and so many articles are written in this way, and no, I doubt it is the "most badly written"piece of journalism. At least, give it until Tuesday I am sure this will be bested by then.

[Nigel1500]

Since the trains will run at high speed, the risk of accidents and serious damage to life and property is also high, so the cost for the system is also high, as mechanical parts must be subjected to a very high standard.

"Recognising this fact, those who were initially enthusiastic have become disheartened," Nakorn said.

A great little gem that basically lays bare the attitude of the Thai government and Thais, in general, to public safety.

Yes, I was also going to comment on this statement, which is factually incorrect. Japan is, of course, the HSR expert with the Shinkansen first entering service in the mid 1960's, and the development of the first 100mph electric train in the 1950's. Yet in the 60 year history of HSR in Japan, the only fatality has been a single suicide. Even derailments caused by earthquake (an accident involving a 200 Series Shinkansen comes to mind) did not result in any deaths.

The recent Chinese incident however, demonstrates how culture can affect progress. Here, drivers boasted about graduating after just three weeks training and being masters of a HSR. In Japan, the process takes 9 months. You need to have been a regular driver for a number of years prior and you are supervised fully for the first few months after graduating. Here's a couple of video's showing just how seriously the Japanese take their job of driving Shinkansen.

The first video is a driver change where control of the vehicle is handed over to a female driver.

The second video shows a graduate, his supervisor, and the training supervisor waiting for Nozomi 60 service to Tokyo. The training supervisor also boards the train with the other two drivers. We think he is actually assessing the supervisor on this trip. Notice how the driver who alighted waits for his vehicle to depart under the control of the new driver before leaving the platform. You can see his concern around the 3:15 time. The service is now running late. This is a rare occurrance in Japan. The doors were opened for a second time. Very rare. (Note: the average delay for a Shinkansen in 2008 was less than 10 seconds. Considering there are nearly 200 services per hour in peak hour, this is no mean feat!).

Amongst other things, Shinkansen drivers must have a zero drug and alcohol level. They are tested several times per week. They must use a company issue watch. They must confirm timing to the second before each journey. They use a "Point and Say" system to assist in maintaining focus and quality assurance. You can see that at the end of the second video too. The alighted driver first points at the top of the Shinkansen. This is to remind the train guard to check the platform clock. Then there is an acknowledgment between the driver and guard as they pass. This is one of the reasons for wearing the white gloves, too.

My point in all of this? While I'm certain HSR is feasable, achievable, and profitable in Thailand, certain cultural elements that we have come to love for other reasons may hinder the safety aspect of HSR in this country.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Nigel1500

[sunkist]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

I have 43 years of Engineering and some included railway construction. This really is the stupidest thing...nearly...I have ever heard. Gotta move towns and cities!!!

Wow and this guy has some credentials. Wonder who he is trying to scare and why.

[Ricardo]

Of course this is what would happen. The article fails to consider that European rail has a 150 year history, maybe more. Rail in Thailand is only post-war. The article is full of politics and devoid of any facts about HSR.

"only post-war" ?

Pre first-world-war, to be more correct. The first line (Bangkok-Ayuttaya) dates back to 1892. Choo choo !

[sunkist]

"we should first build double-track railroads before thinking about high-speed trains" says Nakorn somebody, saying about the only sensible thing in the hole article.

As I keep saying whenever this topic comes up, and as any sane transport planner would say, Thailand needs only to upgrade to normal express train standard with double tracks, of the kind that has existed in Europe for about a century. At the moment, it has a railway system which runs at about the speed of the mid-Victorian railways.

Investing in high-speed trains would to be miss out the stage of development that is really needed in order to create an absurdly over-the-top system --- and probably a financially failed system -- in relation to Thailand's real needs.

Absolutely right! Now I do need in between 16 and 18hours to travel from Hat Yai to Bangkok. A regular, "D-Zug", not the fast "Intercity" in Germany does it in 9 hours. If the Thai government just would redo the current tracks to a regular standard and for sure have two tracks instead of one, everything would be fine, and the trains would finally stop to rattle. And in a couple of years Thailand would be able to run even faster trains using the newly updated tracks.

Not aware that high speed trains are freight trains....need to do both and good double track full gauge rail in the flat lands can go pretty quick.

[telldem]

This idea is just as good as the Nuclear reactor in Thailand.

Sent from my iPhone 4S using Thaivisa Connect App

[planr]

With regard to the cities aspect, if the station locations are not in the centers or near the centers of existing cities/towns, the project will fail. Look at Taiwan's HSR. Except for Taipei and Kaoshiung, the Taiwnanese chose to build the intermediate stations in greenfield locations well outside cities. Even in Taichung, with more than 2.5 million, the HSR station is way out of town and you have to take a special bus to the center of the city. As a result, there is substantial inefficiencies and certainly lost ridership.

Luckily (or perhaps not), the Japanese consultants who undertook the pre-feasibility study for the Chiang Mai line realize this and analyzed the potential to use existing station areas for HSR station development, with most getting a green light. If the government goes through with this, hopefully this important fact is not lost in translation.

Edited August 6, 2012 by planr

[rubl]

If the Kingdom has to invest in high-speed trains, cities and towns will have to be relocated.

In the mean time Curiosity has landed, on Mars that is

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/

[thaiedward]

hahaha funny... looking for foreign money and once it is build, they will just take over.... what about that german company that never got paid more than 20 years ago to make a highway or was it a part of the old airport here in thailand ?

why would any other country invest in such projects, where corruption money to be collected, costs to be tripple for the "right" reasons, is more important than anything else ?

why in so many years of living here or comming here for hollidays, there is no rail link from the airport directly to, let's say pattaya for one... or other (past) "top" tourist destinations

BINGO! How stupid do they want the tourists (and the lo-so's) to be? Perhaps we shall know more in the by and by.

[who]

It would seem that the Lao are the only ones who realize that encouraging the Chinese to build roads in your direction is a bad idea.

Edited August 7, 2012 by metisdead
: Font reset to default forum font and color.

[hellodolly]

Since the trains will run at high speed, the risk of accidents and serious damage to life and property is also high, so the cost for the system is also high, as mechanical parts must be subjected to a very high standard.

"Recognising this fact, those who were initially enthusiastic have become disheartened," Nakorn said.

A great little gem that basically lays bare the attitude of the Thai government and Thais, in general, to public safety.

Yes but all those things are known and already solved. The big problem will be to convince Thailand that they don't have to invent the wheel it has been done for thousands of years.

[scotbeve]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

And.........every Rai of land within 1 km either side of the bullet trains proposed track will be bought under a mandatory purchase scheme by ....the Shiniwatra's.

If the Government would just stamp all over the budgeted costs of 'graft' which have been officially stated as 30% of Government budgets then the bullet train would only cost 2/3 rds of the currently proposed price..a bargain!

Ummmm... you'll find that all the land next to waterways, the land / adjacent land the railways run through, military land, and major highways / adjacent land are already owned by someone else.

Edited August 7, 2012 by scotbeve

[OzMick]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

Very good - except the car in this video is apparently Australian! '1979 Holden Commodore'. maybe the 'Chinese car crash test' indicated that the test was done in China? There again maybe not because the wall survived!

The original site had a comment that the car resembled a Commodore. Any chance that a Chinese (or any asian) company would rip-off a design and then build it badly?

Do you remember the hoo-ha over Telstra paying a huge amount of money for their new logo, now appearing on a Thai bank?

[Thai at Heart]

With regard to the cities aspect, if the station locations are not in the centers or near the centers of existing cities/towns, the project will fail. Look at Taiwan's HSR. Except for Taipei and Kaoshiung, the Taiwnanese chose to build the intermediate stations in greenfield locations well outside cities. Even in Taichung, with more than 2.5 million, the HSR station is way out of town and you have to take a special bus to the center of the city. As a result, there is substantial inefficiencies and certainly lost ridership.

Luckily (or perhaps not), the Japanese consultants who undertook the pre-feasibility study for the Chiang Mai line realize this and analyzed the potential to use existing station areas for HSR station development, with most getting a green light. If the government goes through with this, hopefully this important fact is not lost in translation.

Just about every major regional city in Thailand has ring roads that are sometimes only 5 or 10 km from the centre of the downtown, but largely out in the countryside. The stations only need to be 5 to 10 km from downtown. Of course, this needs a bit of integrated thinking to put a bus station nearby, there will inevitably be myriad songtaews and tuuk tuuks going to the stations also. There is absolutely no reason why the lines can't skirt along side the existing main roads from city to city, where this idiocy about moving cities comes from god only knows????

[Noistar]

My post is concerned about possible corruption with the huge sums of money projects like this will cost

It is very interesting to see 'The Government' and 'Chiang Mai' appear together in articles about infrastructure projects.

A link was provided a while ago about the association between 2 powerful Chiang Mai families. The Shinawatras and Buranupakorns. (am I allowed to repeat the link?)

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=3432

2 points in the interview included in the link interested me:

1 - he mentions an approach to Abhisit for investment

There are great expectations from this government; they are very fast at problem solving. I talked to Abhisit [Vejjajiva], but was ignored. Politics influences development. In October this year, the first budget of 9 billion will arrive to Chiang Mai.

So Abhisit didn't come to Chiang Mai with an open wallet. A state of affairs which this government has 'rectified'

2 - he is asked - What infrastructure projects are you currently working on?

A ring road from Hang Dong to go around to Mae Rim, through Saraphee and Sankampaeng, totalling 58 kilometres,

We will be adding underpasses to all intersections along the third ring road, I think there are six or seven locations, and this will cost three billion baht.

Another project we are working on is to complete the road which runs parallel to the train tracks from Chiang Mai to Lamphun.

His comment "My job is not to build these things, but to pitch the ideas to the government and get budgeting approval." doesn't sound too difficult!

Another exciting project is to build a shortcut to Mae Hong Son via a tunnel, or multiple tunnels. It will require tens of billions.

A project which PM Yingluck Shinawatra is very excited about is a high speed train between Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

"

So his friends are now in Government and money is flowing North. Is there the possibility that all the investment isn't going to end up in the projects?

[Pib]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

Planet Thailand, the Hub of the Universe.

[eatswaves2]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

Planet thailand ????????????????????

[eatswaves2]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

Looking at the you tube clip is see it was 1992 car so a little unfair comparison .....

[Tanaka]

Well I guess it will take YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS before to see any tracks for the high speed train ... Why Thailand didnt think about the same idea of producing spare parts for MRT or BTS ? The high speed technology in Europe specially in France with the TGV is probably the best and the most expensive .... you cannot buy a rolls royce at a price of a toyota sorry .

Toyota - in your dreams, they are going Chinese. Check out the worst car in the world @

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94HTIueOuDQ

Thank you for the link, shocking.

Yeah scary, but the tests in that video are 30 years old, at least. Technology has advance somewhat since them. And the worst car on the video, Holden Commodore, was Australian, not Chinese.

[Nigel1500]

Relocate cities and towns!!!! What planet are these people on?

I have 43 years of Engineering and some included railway construction. This really is the stupidest thing...nearly...I have ever heard. Gotta move towns and cities!!!

Wow and this guy has some credentials. Wonder who he is trying to scare and why.

Agreed. But this sort of posturing is not limited to Thailand. The biggest opponents are the obvious ones: other transport industries - bus and air, possibly with the trucking industry thrown in for good measure. The same issues occur in Australia, USA, South America and Africa.

[Nigel1500]

Of course this is what would happen. The article fails to consider that European rail has a 150 year history, maybe more. Rail in Thailand is only post-war. The article is full of politics and devoid of any facts about HSR.

"only post-war" ?

Pre first-world-war, to be more correct. The first line (Bangkok-Ayuttaya) dates back to 1892. Choo choo !

Fair point, although my books state 1893 as the first service. However, I was thinking of mass-transit. The Ayutthaya line hardly qualifies. My point is that Thailand is being compared with countries with 150 years experience in moving a significant proportion of their population around their country by rail.

But you are technically correct. There were regular passenger services in Thailand before 1900. Thanks to King Rama V and his foresight for a modern country.

[Nigel1500]

With regard to the cities aspect, if the station locations are not in the centers or near the centers of existing cities/towns, the project will fail. Look at Taiwan's HSR. Except for Taipei and Kaoshiung, the Taiwnanese chose to build the intermediate stations in greenfield locations well outside cities. Even in Taichung, with more than 2.5 million, the HSR station is way out of town and you have to take a special bus to the center of the city. As a result, there is substantial inefficiencies and certainly lost ridership.

Luckily (or perhaps not), the Japanese consultants who undertook the pre-feasibility study for the Chiang Mai line realize this and analyzed the potential to use existing station areas for HSR station development, with most getting a green light. If the government goes through with this, hopefully this important fact is not lost in translation.

You are generally correct. Historically, HSR shadows established rail corridors. It is reasonable to suggest that the HSR will follow closely the network operated by State Rail of Thailand. Diversions to serve nearby major tourist and population centers excepted.

[Thai at Heart]

Of course this is what would happen. The article fails to consider that European rail has a 150 year history, maybe more. Rail in Thailand is only post-war. The article is full of politics and devoid of any facts about HSR.

"only post-war" ?

Pre first-world-war, to be more correct. The first line (Bangkok-Ayuttaya) dates back to 1892. Choo choo !

Fair point, although my books state 1893 as the first service. However, I was thinking of mass-transit. The Ayutthaya line hardly qualifies. My point is that Thailand is being compared with countries with 150 years experience in moving a significant proportion of their population around their country by rail.

But you are technically correct. There were regular passenger services in Thailand before 1900. Thanks to King Rama V and his foresight for a modern country.

Shame they don't appear to have invested much in it since that time.

[Nigel1500]

This idea is just as good as the Nuclear reactor in Thailand.

Sent from my iPhone 4S using Thaivisa Connect App

No. Nuclear reactors aren't good anywhere ... except the one that's 150 million km away.

[planr]

Of course this is what would happen. The article fails to consider that European rail has a 150 year history, maybe more. Rail in Thailand is only post-war. The article is full of politics and devoid of any facts about HSR.

"only post-war" ?

Pre first-world-war, to be more correct. The first line (Bangkok-Ayuttaya) dates back to 1892. Choo choo !

Fair point, although my books state 1893 as the first service. However, I was thinking of mass-transit. The Ayutthaya line hardly qualifies. My point is that Thailand is being compared with countries with 150 years experience in moving a significant proportion of their population around their country by rail.

But you are technically correct. There were regular passenger services in Thailand before 1900. Thanks to King Rama V and his foresight for a modern country.

I'm a bit confused here. The Royal Railway network got off the ground in the 1890s as did electrified tram service in Bangkok

What has Thailand missed in the last... 120 years... besides failing to continually invest and upgrade the urban and inter-urban networks?

Edited August 8, 2012 by planr

[hellodolly]

My post is concerned about possible corruption with the huge sums of money projects like this will cost

It is very interesting to see 'The Government' and 'Chiang Mai' appear together in articles about infrastructure projects.

A link was provided a while ago about the association between 2 powerful Chiang Mai families. The Shinawatras and Buranupakorns. (am I allowed to repeat the link?)

http://www.chiangmai...wfa.php?id=3432

2 points in the interview included in the link interested me:

1 - he mentions an approach to Abhisit for investment

There are great expectations from this government; they are very fast at problem solving. I talked to Abhisit [Vejjajiva], but was ignored. Politics influences development. In October this year, the first budget of 9 billion will arrive to Chiang Mai.

So Abhisit didn't come to Chiang Mai with an open wallet. A state of affairs which this government has 'rectified'

2 - he is asked - What infrastructure projects are you currently working on?

A ring road from Hang Dong to go around to Mae Rim, through Saraphee and Sankampaeng, totalling 58 kilometres,

We will be adding underpasses to all intersections along the third ring road, I think there are six or seven locations, and this will cost three billion baht.

Another project we are working on is to complete the road which runs parallel to the train tracks from Chiang Mai to Lamphun.

His comment "My job is not to build these things, but to pitch the ideas to the government and get budgeting approval." doesn't sound too difficult!

Another exciting project is to build a shortcut to Mae Hong Son via a tunnel, or multiple tunnels. It will require tens of billions.

A project which PM Yingluck Shinawatra is very excited about is a high speed train between Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

"

So his friends are now in Government and money is flowing North. Is there the possibility that all the investment isn't going to end up in the projects?

You were joking when you said " possible corruption" I hope

If it wasn't the home of the Shinawatra clan is the economic value of a separate high speed train coming to Chiang Mai worth the cost.