Thai Credit Cards Won't Work In Uk, Europe

[george]

FROM TODAY's BANGKOK POST POSTBAG:

Thai credit cards won't work in UK, Europe

I write to illuminate a major problem for users of credit cards issued in Thailand who wish to use their cards in the United Kingdom and the European Union.

Whilst on holiday in the UK over the Christmas period, I endeavoured to use my numerous Thai credit cards to make purchases for goods at retail outlets and for hotels and travel services. Almost every time I used one I was greeted with comments from the sales staff about them and the fact that I had to sign for the cards' usage.

This seemed most peculiar to me and eventually I asked one of the retailers what was the problem with my cards and why was signing a slip of paper so much of an effort? I was politely told that from Feb 14, 2006, it will be illegal for retailers to accept any credit or debit cards which require a "swipe" facility relying only on a magnetic strip. All cards must be equipped with an electronic "chip" which requires the user to input a 4-6 digit code via a hand-held keypad, screened from other customers' view. No facilities will be available for customers to swipe and sign.

This news rather shocked me so I went directly to my UK bank, Barclays International, and asked them to confirm this. I was told that this was true and that retailers were now phasing out their swipe card equipment and replacing it with the "chip & pin" technology ready for Feb 14. Hence some retailers' reluctance in December to accept my old cards.

Immediately on my return to Bangkok I approached my credit-card providers to be shocked and surprised that not a single supplier (and I have 5 cards) knew anything about this, did not necessarily believe me, and stated that if this was the case they had no plans to update technology.

I therefore write to let all of you know this situation, as I foresee many business travellers and holiday makers travelling to Europe and the UK and being unable to move any further than the airport, unable to use their credit cards to book a rental car, buy a train ticket, pay for a hotel room or buy even a drink. If you intend to travel to these countries you will need to take a briefcase full of cash, because as I understand it, the old cards won't even work in an ATM from February onwards.

The one saving grace is that Thai Military Bank, whom I don't hold a credit card with, did know what I was talking about and do issue a "chip & pin" credit card which can be used in the UK. I hope my application is speedily accepted!

--Bangkok Post Postbag 2006-01-20

[Florin]

This doesn't look good, though it will probably be some time before the system is fully implemented...does anyone know if international banks here (like UOB, HSBC or Citibank) offer such a facility for their credit cards?

[Thetyim]

Don't get over confident with TMB, I had to close my account with them.

First I got an international CC from them but it was not accepted in UK.

I complained but got nowhere.

Secondly I got an ATM card for my TMB asset management account only to find that the system was not online yet.

[raro]

In Germany I always had trouble with my Thai CC, as many retailers simply do not accept Visa cards. They ask for the euro-cheque card instead, which works like a debit card and costs them less commissions. Unfortunately you cannot get such card when you live in Thailand....catch 22, I guess..

[AsiaWolfie]

I hardly can believe George's story, though he experienced it like that in real life..... maybe this only happens to cards from outside EU or Europe ? I got my latest cards (Master and VISA) from BERLINER BANK issued at July 2005 and they came without a chip (though my other VISA card from MERCEDES BANK issued one year earlier already had one). and until today, I did not get any information that the stripes wont be accepted anymore... but I will certainly email my Bank and wonder what kind of reply I will get.....

[george]

AsiaWolfie, it's not my story, it's a published letter from Bangkok Post Postbag today.

[lopburi3]

I also noted the story but can not believe it as US cards do not have any such chip that I am aware of and I am sure they are not going to cut off that much of the market. Believe some dates have been mixed up somewhere. I have two US visa cards issued within the last six months and valid for 2 and 3 years that do not appear to have any chip.

[briley]

Parts of this report are true .............

As from 14th February 2006 any card that is chip and pin enabled will, in the UK, have to be authorised using the PIN - if not the retailer takes the loss if there is fraud.

But cards that are not Chip and PIN enabled should still be fully usable.

Having said that the banks hullabahoo in the UK and the general poor state of education of cashiers in the UK does mean many people with valid cards will find shops refusing them.

As an aside to this if your card is fraudulantly used with a PIN it is impossible to prove you did not use the card or divulge the PIN to someone else - unlike the case with a signature. So effectively the UK banks are saying if a PIN is used fraudulantly it is your problem, if a PIN is not used, and it is fraud, it is the shops problem.

[Thaipwriter]

Perhaps the mechants just thought that the cards were copies, just like everything from Thailand

[briley]

But mine's a genuine copy

[ovenman]

I also noted the story but can not believe it as US cards do not have any such chip that I am aware of and I am sure they are not going to cut off that much of the market. Believe some dates have been mixed up somewhere. I have two US visa cards issued within the last six months and valid for 2 and 3 years that do not appear to have any chip.

Same here. None of my US-issued credit cards have such a chip, nor have I heard anything from any credit card company about their imminent plans to do so.

As from 14th February 2006 any card that is chip and pin enabled will, in the UK, have to be authorised using the PIN - if not the retailer takes the loss if there is fraud.

But cards that are not Chip and PIN enabled should still be fully usable.

Having said that the banks hullabahoo in the UK and the general poor state of education of cashiers in the UK does mean many people with valid cards will find shops refusing them.

One can picture this scenario becoming akin to the good ol' days here in Thailand where uninformed merchants would only accept Visa cards issued by Thai Farmers Bank (or wherever).

More accurate information about this program than that the Postbag letter can be found at the UK Chip and PIN website.

[Butterfly]

One dirty little secrets that VISA and MC are trying to hide from the public is that Credit Card Fraud has become massive, much more than the official 0.05% which they claim not to scare off consumers.

With the PIN chip, it's very well possible that Bankers are trying to move the liabilities back to the consumer instead of the merchant or insurance. The good news is that even with the Chip, credit card fraud will not stop, as the source code to decipher your password on the chip has been released on the web a few years ago. Nothing is safe but that won't stop the banks from claiming otherwise.

[roamer]

I can just see Selfridges & Harrods turning away all those tourists with the old style cards who want to spend a few hundred apiece...........

[Carmine6]

I also noted the story but can not believe it as US cards do not have any such chip that I am aware of and I am sure they are not going to cut off that much of the market. Believe some dates have been mixed up somewhere. I have two US visa cards issued within the last six months and valid for 2 and 3 years that do not appear to have any chip.

This is my reaction too. My Amex Blue has a chip in it, but I don't think it's for the same purpose as the European chips. Some of the big US banks are starting to roll out chipped cards, but these are for point of sale purchases and specifically don't require a signature or pin. You just wave the card on a reader and it makes the charge. Last I heard the roll out was in Arizona and some other area back east and the cards are only recently being distributed widely.

Assuming the chips can do the same thing as the European ones, Americans aren't accustomed to using pins with their credit cards and won't know them, and it'll be years before all the cards get swaped out. Anything remotely touristy will risk losing a lot of sales.

[Thaiquila]

Does this news have any effect on Thai bank ATM cards, cards directly linked to your Thai bank account?

[GuestHouse]

It is beyond me why anyone would want a Thai credit card, the risks attached to it and its lack of user protection are rediculous compared with the excellent protection (and larger credit limits) of credit cards back home.

Illegal use of a Thai credit card is paid for by the card holder.

Loose your Thai credit card and you could wind up with a limitless bill.

[Crossy]

Does this news have any effect on Thai bank ATM cards, cards directly linked to your Thai bank account?

The ATM function of your card will work just fine in any ATM with the necessary symbol (Visa, Cirrus etc).

Interestingly my UK bank (Nationwide) card has a chip as does my UK Mastercard and my Luxembourg Visa. My UK Barclaycard does not.

When we were living in Belgium (yes the worlds most boring country) the supermarkeds stopped accepting non-chip and pin cards in June 2004 immediately killing off me using my Barclaycard

The hotel I use in the Philippines accepts chip and pin (European standard), in fact if a chip and pin card is swiped through the magnetic reader the machine insists that the operator use the chip reader..

The credit card machines installed in 7-Eleven's in BKK have both the contact chip (that we are talking about) and the contactless reader for the new E-purse cards that have recently been introduced. Whether the contact facility is in use I don't know, I never spend enought in 7-Eleven to warrant using a credit card.

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A brief description of the security system of a chip and pin card follows, none of this data is secret and can be obtained easily on the net. This description is however also incomplete and contains deliberate inaccuracies.

Chip and pin is very secure, considerably more so than the mag-stripe. To even access the data on the chip you need a secret 128 bit data key. The chip data is further encypted using a unique key which is actually a fixed number determined at the chip manufacturer and cannot be changed, ever. This means that simply copying the encypted data onto a new card (cloning) is not possible as the new card will have a different fixed id number.

The pin itself is stored on the chip using a non-reversable encryption system (you can't decode the pin using the data on the chip), instead the machine itself does not verify the pin, that is done by the central computer which applies the same non-reversable encryption algorythm to the pin as typed by the customer, if the result is the same as the data on the card then the pin is correct and the central system authorises the charge.

Obviously the system is only as secure as the weakest link (the customer), let your pin be known and all the technology is for naught.

[Oishi]

FROM TODAY's BANGKOK POST POSTBAG:

Thai credit cards won't work in UK, Europe

Yes and no!

The problem isn’t that simple.

Several factors are involved.

In Denmark the government along with the banks forced the use of chip cards upon the Danish citizens about a year ago.

And as you where told, the shops turned the old swipe system back in exchange for the new card reader. But as with so many other things the system wasn’t and still doesn’t work perfect. A lot of customers would have to wait up to 30 seconds for the card reader, phone line and database to approve the purchase and you can imagine what that will do to a queue at a cashier in a supermarket.

The shops became rebels and would cover the card reader with duck tape. The system still had the old swipe option so the consumers would use that instead.

And they still do…

The old Visa and Master Cards in Denmark had a very nice feature. It has a photo of the card holder on the back. This was a great way to id the card holder.

But along with the new chip cards the photos disappeared.

The reason for many Thai credit cards to be rejected is simply because of fraud.

There are to many scams and credit card numbers stolen or the get it from the internet and purchase from an online shop. The shop doesn’t care since the numbers used is a legal running number BUT the person who has his or her credit card stolen or misused would along with the bank fill a complain to the shop and the credit card merchant…this is known as a charge back. And it is charge backs that are the problem because it costs the merchants a lot of money and time to track and prove or accept and pay back the money…solution to this is simple don’t accept credit cards from Thailand, Malaysia or Kenya and so on.

So when you go to the restaurant in London or Copenhagen and wants to pay with your Thai Visa or Master Card a warning will pop up at the cashier asking for extra prove of ID…like a signature or other cards.

It is the same reason why many have the same problem here in Thailand when the want to buy something online like Skype call out time.

The credit card fraud in Thailand is so big that many Scandinavian banks will contact customers returning from holiday in Thailand and ask if they would please check all Visa transaction and tell if the agree to the purchases.

The solution might be within reach or maybe not but the new Thai ID card has the exact same chip based on java embedded on the card. So if the bank in Thailand where smart they would use this as a credit card or debit card. I’m sure they are already thinking about that.

So even though you don’t look like a scam artist you will be treated like one until proven otherwise…when you pay with a Thai Visa or Master Card.

Sad but true…..

But you are not the one with the biggest problem if that might cheer you up.

The people or companies that do online shopping from Thailand with Thai Visa cards or MasterCard are far more helpless.

Most online merchants know of the charges regarding the charge back I mentioned before. Therefore they will use a database to try and minimize fraud.

That database will collect as much info as possible about the customer, so if you are buying from a internet address in Thailand (IP) you will setup an alarm.

Next up is your name…it doesn’t sound Thai …next alarm.

And when you then proceed to use a Thai credit card is the alarm that says no way!

And it is the same thing most skype users in Thailand are seeing now.

[penzman]

I wouldn't expect any changes by tomorrow. While shopping at tukcom today I noticed that they had about 6 different card readers and printers for as many banks.

We were able to purchase flight tickets from Cathay online with Thai credit cards but any other american companies did not accept them.

[Carmine6]

FROM TODAY's BANGKOK POST POSTBAG:

Thai credit cards won't work in UK, Europe

Yes and no!

The problem isn’t that simple.

Several factors are involved.

In Denmark the government along with the banks forced the use of chip cards upon the Danish citizens about a year ago.

And as you where told, the shops turned the old swipe system back in exchange for the new card reader. But as with so many other things the system wasn’t and still doesn’t work perfect. A lot of customers would have to wait up to 30 seconds for the card reader, phone line and database to approve the purchase and you can imagine what that will do to a queue at a cashier in a supermarket.

The shops became rebels and would cover the card reader with duck tape. The system still had the old swipe option so the consumers would use that instead.

And they still do…

The old Visa and Master Cards in Denmark had a very nice feature. It has a photo of the card holder on the back. This was a great way to id the card holder.

But along with the new chip cards the photos disappeared.

The reason for many Thai credit cards to be rejected is simply because of fraud.

There are to many scams and credit card numbers stolen or the get it from the internet and purchase from an online shop. The shop doesn’t care since the numbers used is a legal running number BUT the person who has his or her credit card stolen or misused would along with the bank fill a complain to the shop and the credit card merchant…this is known as a charge back. And it is charge backs that are the problem because it costs the merchants a lot of money and time to track and prove or accept and pay back the money…solution to this is simple don’t accept credit cards from Thailand, Malaysia or Kenya and so on.

So when you go to the restaurant in London or Copenhagen and wants to pay with your Thai Visa or Master Card a warning will pop up at the cashier asking for extra prove of ID…like a signature or other cards.

It is the same reason why many have the same problem here in Thailand when the want to buy something online like Skype call out time.

The credit card fraud in Thailand is so big that many Scandinavian banks will contact customers returning from holiday in Thailand and ask if they would please check all Visa transaction and tell if the agree to the purchases.

The solution might be within reach or maybe not but the new Thai ID card has the exact same chip based on java embedded on the card. So if the bank in Thailand where smart they would use this as a credit card or debit card. I’m sure they are already thinking about that.

So even though you don’t look like a scam artist you will be treated like one until proven otherwise…when you pay with a Thai Visa or Master Card.

Sad but true…..

But you are not the one with the biggest problem if that might cheer you up.

The people or companies that do online shopping from Thailand with Thai Visa cards or MasterCard are far more helpless.

Most online merchants know of the charges regarding the charge back I mentioned before. Therefore they will use a database to try and minimize fraud.

That database will collect as much info as possible about the customer, so if you are buying from a internet address in Thailand (IP) you will setup an alarm.

Next up is your name…it doesn’t sound Thai …next alarm.

And when you then proceed to use a Thai credit card is the alarm that says no way!

And it is the same thing most skype users in Thailand are seeing now.

Thanks. This makes much more sense than the newspaper writer's information. As noted by Lopburi3, American cards don't yet have these chips in them, so there has to be some alternative way to use them. Otherwise expect Americans to spend a lot less while visiting.

My guess is the reporter didn't ask the right people for the answers and was misinformed. What a surprise. For example, he relied upon the clerk at the retailer, so did he also rely on a customer service rep at the bank? Not necessarily the most reliable sources in either case.

[Veritas]

With the PIN chip, it's very well possible that Bankers are trying to move the liabilities back to the consumer instead of the merchant or insurance.

This is exactly the issue. Instead of asking for, say, three digits selected at random from a 6 digit password, they ask you to inpt 4 in the same sequence every time in a queue at a supermarket, despite looking over peoples shoulders then stealing the card being one of the major sources of cashcard fraud. This half assed attempt is just to switch the onus over to the customer and retailer instead of accepting responsibility for a crap system.

Veritas

[Ian_B]

I still use Nationwide for my banking and was back in the UK over Christmas and New Year.

Most of my shopping was done at HMV or Game - both shops said I had to enter my pin instead of sign. I had no idea what they were talking so I had to go and get cash from the ATM!

Nationwide has been issuing my cards with a chip in for a few years now and now I know why!

The BIG problem about these chip cards is that they tend to tear just below the chip. I have had this happen 3 times in the years I've been here. Then I have the nightmare of getting a card sent over from the UK (DHL, TNT etc will not ship a credit card)

[caledonia]

I hardly can believe George's story, though he experienced it like that in real life..... maybe this only happens to cards from outside EU or Europe ? I got my latest cards (Master and VISA) from BERLINER BANK issued at July 2005 and they came without a chip (though my other VISA card from MERCEDES BANK issued one year earlier already had one). and until today, I did not get any information that the stripes wont be accepted anymore... but I will certainly email my Bank and wonder what kind of reply I will get.....

This is certainly happening throughout the UK and whilst most of the major retailers are going to keep the swipe option a lot of smaller retailers do not have the swipe option left at all. My bank were a bit slow in issuing me with the card and I got turned away from a few shops just before Christmas.

It is not exactly a new thing though - I remeber having a Bank of America card when I was there in 1996 that I used a pin with rather than signed - it wasn't a microchip but it was my cashline pin I used to make purchases in shops never the less. It was exactly the same with Commonwealth bank in Australia in 2000. A lot of countries have been doing it for years, the Uk was a bit slow on the uptake it just seems and therefore have chip and pin rather than swipe and pin like elsewhere.

At the end of the day it may be an inconveniance but you can just go to the cashline and take the money out there! Thats what I did in LOS when they wouldn't take my cards for whatever reason.

[lopburi3]

The PIN for ATM use is not the microchip system that the UK is rolling out. Cards without the microchip should be accepted with signature as in the past (company policy permitting) but those that have the chip must use the PIN rather than a signature. I agree it will make it much harder to dispute for the customer as there is no forged signature that you can prove was not you as evidence. But it will make it much harder for any but the most expert theft so should result in less fraud overall.

Like anything else - if they don't like the color of your money go someplace that does.