Police Hunt For Men Behind Shooting In Front Of Chinese Embassy Bangkok

[webfact]

Police hunt for men behind Sunday shooting

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The police have launched a manhunt for two of the four suspects who were allegedly involved in the shooting down of a 30-year-old man in front of the Chinese embassy in Bangkok.

Pol Colonel Kailert Buakaew, deputy commander of Bangkok Metropolitan Police Division 1, said yesterday that his division had collected related evidence and had enough witnesses to ask the court to issue arrest warrants for the four suspects who allegedly killed Wuttichai KaeOcha on Sunday.

The police have closed circuit camera clips showing four young men riding into the area on two motorcycles and one of them shooting Wutthichai before riding off. Police believe two of the suspects are 20 years old, while the other two - a 16yearold and an 18yearold - have already surrendered.

Kailert said Wutthichai was attending a birthday party with 20 of his friends, when they ended up quarrelling with the four suspects.

-- The Nation 2012-08-09

[Katipo]

"We had an argument, so now you must die!"

Poor Thailand.

[TomTao]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

[nottocus]

Why to kill to solve an argument?

Face of course.

Much more important than Buddhism.

[OzMick]

If you need to resort to violence, you've already lost the argument.

But in Thailand is seems acceptable, if not traditional, to resort to mob/gang attack with violence far in excess of reasonable - and with no thought of the dire consequences payable for a miniscule victory.

[chooka]

What is it with Thais that argument always ends in violence or death and it never seems to be a one on one conflict the offender/s offenders always seem to get a group to carry out the violence. Reminds me of a victim in Melbourne, Aust, he had an argument with a thai who then left a came back with some thai mates and stabbed him to death. I guess it is just a mindset of some Thais or they are just weak and scared when alone.

[telldem]

I blame it on violent video games.

Sent from my iPhone 4 S using Thaivisa Connect App

[metisdead]

That didn't take long for this thread to go off topic, this isn't about gang related violence in the US.

[dddave]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

Umm..As I recall, Christianity also teaches THOU SHALT NOT KILL..So how come your not questioning the standing armies and countless murders of the Christian world as well?

[geovalin]

This is the Asian "turn amok" thing.

[Khonper]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

Umm..As I recall, Christianity also teaches THOU SHALT NOT KILL..So how come your not questioning the standing armies and countless murders of the Christian world as well?

Probably because they also don't wanna lose face, you can find trash all over the world, thailand isn't unique.

[Globeman]

What is it with Thais that argument always ends in violence or death and it never seems to be a one on one conflict the offender/s offenders always seem to get a group to carry out the violence. Reminds me of a victim in Melbourne, Aust, he had an argument with a thai who then left a came back with some thai mates and stabbed him to death. I guess it is just a mindset of some Thais or they are just weak and scared when alone.

The idea of one man fighting one man - a fair fight - is very much a western construct. Thais would be mystified as to why you'd take the risk. It is about power - power is face... if you have a gang and especially one bigger than your rival's, then you have the bigger face (the foundation of Asian self esteem). Victory is all that matters, so using ten guys to beat up one is not only acceptable, it is more impressive, as a demonstration of power. This way of thinking extends into all areas of life. Look at the rice scams that have been going on. Wealthy traders cheating poor farmers. Those of us raised with a western sense of 'fair play' find it difficult to fathom how such people (like the official who was skimming off milk money funds from poor schoolkids) can look themselves in the mirror. But Thais aren't taught to be egalitarian and fair-minded... nope, they are taught to wai almost from birth - an acknowledgement and respect for social status - power. So if this is the conditioning, then fairness is not an issue at all, and it is pretty obvious that if power is all that is respected, then it is a good idea to get yourself in a position of power - by whatever means necessary.

[thaipod]

Since the elections there has been a huge increase in shootings , murders , or is it my amagination ?

[masterbiker49]

Since the elections there has been a huge increase in shootings , murders , or is it my amagination ?

The 30,000 criminals released last year & the lack of employment with Factories still shut from the Flooding wouldn't have made much difference would it?

[Unkomoncents]

What is it with Thais that argument always ends in violence or death and it never seems to be a one on one conflict the offender/s offenders always seem to get a group to carry out the violence. Reminds me of a victim in Melbourne, Aust, he had an argument with a thai who then left a came back with some thai mates and stabbed him to death. I guess it is just a mindset of some Thais or they are just weak and scared when alone.

The idea of one man fighting one man - a fair fight - is very much a western construct. Thais would be mystified as to why you'd take the risk. It is about power - power is face... if you have a gang and especially one bigger than your rival's, then you have the bigger face (the foundation of Asian self esteem). Victory is all that matters, so using ten guys to beat up one is not only acceptable, it is more impressive, as a demonstration of power. This way of thinking extends into all areas of life. Look at the rice scams that have been going on. Wealthy traders cheating poor farmers. Those of us raised with a western sense of 'fair play' find it difficult to fathom how such people (like the official who was skimming off milk money funds from poor schoolkids) can look themselves in the mirror. But Thais aren't taught to be egalitarian and fair-minded... nope, they are taught to wai almost from birth - an acknowledgement and respect for social status - power. So if this is the conditioning, then fairness is not an issue at all, and it is pretty obvious that if power is all that is respected, then it is a good idea to get yourself in a position of power - by whatever means necessary.

I agree with your assessment of how Thais think of/engage in a fight. It is startling how a simple loss of face scenario (like this one) can push your average Thai to actually kill the offender. I have read countless stories like this one, about a simple argument that later ends in a shooting or stabbing. I also have a few anecdotes myself about causing someone in Thailand to lose face and being concerned for my personal safety in the aftermath. I don't think this is a pan-Asian thing, though. To me it seems peculiar to Thailand and perhaps China. Of the three Asian countries in which I've lived (Singapore, Korea, and Thailand), all three have a concept of face/saving face; however, in Thailand the importance of "face" seems exaggerated to a level unknown in other Asian countries. Anyone who has been exposed to Chinese, Korean or Japanese people can remember an instance of those people yelling at someone when angered or addressing a transgression (though perhaps not openly, like in the West, but these things aren't ignored). In Thailand, you are expected to keep quiet and smile while you're served the wrong meal or otherwise experience Thailand's lackluster service and scam-happy populace. This leads to a level of repressed anger that I am convinced results in explosions of violence in an otherwise peaceful society. The Japanese place extremely high value on honor in combat; while gangs of youth may behave differently, most Koreans or Japanese people that I've ever met would be shocked by this kind of story. They would also agree that stabbing someone in the back (or shooting an unarmed individual from a motorcycle) would constitute cowardice. Most normal Middle-Easterners (also technically Asians and not religious fanatics/militants) would agree. Saladin was famous for his chivalry and concept of honor in combat.

I have to wonder if, in part, this (though perhaps not in this particular story) is the result of the complete failure of Thai law enforcement/legal system to mete out anything that resembles justice. I remember reading the story of a prostitute who had stabbed a fellow working girl. When the perpetrator was asked why she attacked her victim, she related to police that the latter had stolen something of value from the former and the police would do nothing, so she took the law into her own hands.

[pacovl46]

If you need to resort to violence, you've already lost the argument.

But in Thailand is seems acceptable, if not traditional, to resort to mob/gang attack with violence far in excess of reasonable - and with no thought of the dire consequences payable for a miniscule victory.

Just because someone resorts to violence does NOT mean that one has lost the argument because sometimes dumb <snip> are simply begging for it!!!

Edited August 9, 2012 by metisdead
: Profanity

[pacovl46]

What is it with Thais that argument always ends in violence or death and it never seems to be a one on one conflict the offender/s offenders always seem to get a group to carry out the violence. Reminds me of a victim in Melbourne, Aust, he had an argument with a thai who then left a came back with some thai mates and stabbed him to death. I guess it is just a mindset of some Thais or they are just weak and scared when alone.

The idea of one man fighting one man - a fair fight - is very much a western construct. Thais would be mystified as to why you'd take the risk. It is about power - power is face... if you have a gang and especially one bigger than your rival's, then you have the bigger face (the foundation of Asian self esteem). Victory is all that matters, so using ten guys to beat up one is not only acceptable, it is more impressive, as a demonstration of power. This way of thinking extends into all areas of life. Look at the rice scams that have been going on. Wealthy traders cheating poor farmers. Those of us raised with a western sense of 'fair play' find it difficult to fathom how such people (like the official who was skimming off milk money funds from poor schoolkids) can look themselves in the mirror. But Thais aren't taught to be egalitarian and fair-minded... nope, they are taught to wai almost from birth - an acknowledgement and respect for social status - power. So if this is the conditioning, then fairness is not an issue at all, and it is pretty obvious that if power is all that is respected, then it is a good idea to get yourself in a position of power - by whatever means necessary.

I agree with your assessment of how Thais think of/engage in a fight. It is startling how a simple loss of face scenario (like this one) can push your average Thai to actually kill the offender. I have read countless stories like this one, about a simple argument that later ends in a shooting or stabbing. I also have a few anecdotes myself about causing someone in Thailand to lose face and being concerned for my personal safety in the aftermath. I don't think this is a pan-Asian thing, though. To me it seems peculiar to Thailand and perhaps China. Of the three Asian countries in which I've lived (Singapore, Korea, and Thailand), all three have a concept of face/saving face; however, in Thailand the importance of "face" seems exaggerated to a level unknown in other Asian countries. Anyone who has been exposed to Chinese, Korean or Japanese people can remember an instance of those people yelling at someone when angered or addressing a transgression (though perhaps not openly, like in the West, but these things aren't ignored). In Thailand, you are expected to keep quiet and smile while you're served the wrong meal or otherwise experience Thailand's lackluster service and scam-happy populace. This leads to a level of repressed anger that I am convinced results in explosions of violence in an otherwise peaceful society. The Japanese place extremely high value on honor in combat; while gangs of youth may behave differently, most Koreans or Japanese people that I've ever met would be shocked by this kind of story. They would also agree that stabbing someone in the back (or shooting an unarmed individual from a motorcycle) would constitute cowardice. Most normal Middle-Easterners (also technically Asians and not religious fanatics/militants) would agree. Saladin was famous for his chivalry and concept of honor in combat.

I have to wonder if, in part, this (though perhaps not in this particular story) is the result of the complete failure of Thai law enforcement/legal system to mete out anything that resembles justice. I remember reading the story of a prostitute who had stabbed a fellow working girl. When the perpetrator was asked why she attacked her victim, she related to police that the latter had stolen something of value from the former and the police would do nothing, so she took the law into her own hands.

This is a global problem and NOT just one that exists in Thailand!!!

[Unkomoncents]

What is it with Thais that argument always ends in violence or death and it never seems to be a one on one conflict the offender/s offenders always seem to get a group to carry out the violence. Reminds me of a victim in Melbourne, Aust, he had an argument with a thai who then left a came back with some thai mates and stabbed him to death. I guess it is just a mindset of some Thais or they are just weak and scared when alone.

The idea of one man fighting one man - a fair fight - is very much a western construct. Thais would be mystified as to why you'd take the risk. It is about power - power is face... if you have a gang and especially one bigger than your rival's, then you have the bigger face (the foundation of Asian self esteem). Victory is all that matters, so using ten guys to beat up one is not only acceptable, it is more impressive, as a demonstration of power. This way of thinking extends into all areas of life. Look at the rice scams that have been going on. Wealthy traders cheating poor farmers. Those of us raised with a western sense of 'fair play' find it difficult to fathom how such people (like the official who was skimming off milk money funds from poor schoolkids) can look themselves in the mirror. But Thais aren't taught to be egalitarian and fair-minded... nope, they are taught to wai almost from birth - an acknowledgement and respect for social status - power. So if this is the conditioning, then fairness is not an issue at all, and it is pretty obvious that if power is all that is respected, then it is a good idea to get yourself in a position of power - by whatever means necessary.

I agree with your assessment of how Thais think of/engage in a fight. It is startling how a simple loss of face scenario (like this one) can push your average Thai to actually kill the offender. I have read countless stories like this one, about a simple argument that later ends in a shooting or stabbing. I also have a few anecdotes myself about causing someone in Thailand to lose face and being concerned for my personal safety in the aftermath. I don't think this is a pan-Asian thing, though. To me it seems peculiar to Thailand and perhaps China. Of the three Asian countries in which I've lived (Singapore, Korea, and Thailand), all three have a concept of face/saving face; however, in Thailand the importance of "face" seems exaggerated to a level unknown in other Asian countries. Anyone who has been exposed to Chinese, Korean or Japanese people can remember an instance of those people yelling at someone when angered or addressing a transgression (though perhaps not openly, like in the West, but these things aren't ignored). In Thailand, you are expected to keep quiet and smile while you're served the wrong meal or otherwise experience Thailand's lackluster service and scam-happy populace. This leads to a level of repressed anger that I am convinced results in explosions of violence in an otherwise peaceful society. The Japanese place extremely high value on honor in combat; while gangs of youth may behave differently, most Koreans or Japanese people that I've ever met would be shocked by this kind of story. They would also agree that stabbing someone in the back (or shooting an unarmed individual from a motorcycle) would constitute cowardice. Most normal Middle-Easterners (also technically Asians and not religious fanatics/militants) would agree. Saladin was famous for his chivalry and concept of honor in combat.

I have to wonder if, in part, this (though perhaps not in this particular story) is the result of the complete failure of Thai law enforcement/legal system to mete out anything that resembles justice. I remember reading the story of a prostitute who had stabbed a fellow working girl. When the perpetrator was asked why she attacked her victim, she related to police that the latter had stolen something of value from the former and the police would do nothing, so she took the law into her own hands.

This is a global problem and NOT just one that exists in Thailand!!!

I couldn't agree more. But are the causes the same? Is the level the same? If you criticized a New York bus driver, would you expect to be stabbed? If I accused a Thai bus driver of stealing, I would expect an extreme reaction. Is it just the same as New York?

[TomTao]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

Umm..As I recall, Christianity also teaches THOU SHALT NOT KILL..So how come your not questioning the standing armies and countless murders of the Christian world as well?

This has nothing to do with christianity, the armies involved in the various conflicts belong to nations that separate church from state, as to the murders, they are not distinguished be race or religion, tell me where else people are murdered because someone else lost face? Why must people link murder in a buddhist country to unrelated wars and murders in other countries?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[surangw]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

Buddhist teaching does not count when there is a perceived loss of face.

[jerrysteve]

Robbery, killings, etc, etc, are certainly not isolated to Thailand.

I am not sure if their exists any ranking order for the amount of killings, rapes, and robberies, in terms of percentages, but the U.S.A. has

to be either at the top or pretty dam close to it with all the religious freaks, psycos, and nut cases there.

[Unkomoncents]

Robbery, killings, etc, etc, are certainly not isolated to Thailand.

I am not sure if their exists any ranking order for the amount of killings, rapes, and robberies, in terms of percentages, but the U.S.A. has

to be either at the top or pretty dam close to it with all the religious freaks, psycos, and nut cases there.

Thailand has more intentional homicides than the US: http://en.wikipedia....l_homicide_rate. Nevertheless, I'm sure the data relied upon for the figures is self-reported. That, coupled with the competence of the Royal Thai Police, is reason to suspect that the actual numbers are far higher.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[mca]

Since the elections there has been a huge increase in shootings , murders , or is it my amagination ?

Give me strength.

[SIamYank]

I blame it on violent video games.

Sent from my iPhone 4 S using Thaivisa Connect App

Really!?!?! Oh. Yes because murder was unheard of before video games...

[OzMick]

I thought the Buddhist teaching prohibited killing, why do these young men feel the need to kill in order to solve an arguement?

Umm..As I recall, Christianity also teaches THOU SHALT NOT KILL..So how come your not questioning the standing armies and countless murders of the Christian world as well?

I believe that in the US this is covered by the 3rd and 4th amendments to the Ten Commandments.

[atyclb]

Violence/ homicide in various countries for various reasons. Would you not expect the reasons in thailand given the education level/ emotional / intell maturity ?

[Richard W]

Umm..As I recall, Christianity also teaches THOU SHALT NOT KILL..So how come your not questioning the standing armies and countless murders of the Christian world as well?

I believe that in the US this is covered by the 3rd and 4th amendments to the Ten Commandments.

You shall_not_murder

Edited August 10, 2012 by Richard W