Prayuth Files Complaint Against Thaksin Lawyer Robert Amsterdam For Defamation

[jayboy]

I asked what great truth he has spoken. I shall wait with baited breath for details of his magnum opus and shall pore over it with fervor.

On the other hand if this great lawyer is committing acts of prejudice to the case in the form of presenting unproved opinions as fact, then excuse me if I pour further scorn on the individual in question.

Go and read his paper that he published in 2010. You can download the pdf from his website. Read it and then comment.

I've read it already. I found it to be full of unsubstantiated hyperbole and clearly one-eyed.

Care to provide a brief outline of your criticisms, referenced to Amsterdam's main points, since you have "read it already"?

Don't hold your breath folks.

[Orac]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

And so would Prayuth.However's Amsterdam's main offence in his eyes (and perhaps in yours) is that he speaks no more than the truth - not a commodity valued in some quarters.However as always in Thailand the critics of Amsterdam focus on the personal, including anti Semitic slurs on occasion, rather than the substance of his charges.

I didn't even realise he was Jewish. Who has been bringing that into the argument?

Sent from my HTC phone.

Anti semitic slurs are never part of the argument.They are just anti semitic slurs.The chief offender, though to be fair he has tried to refute the charge, is S.P Somtow (actually a rather admirable guy whom I greatly respect)

How about this one:

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry3634618

[animatic]

Amsterdam has made himself a Thailand public figure,

so he must stand any personal brickbats his choice to take publically partisan positions brings his way.

No sympathy, he's made his bed, let him toss and turn in it.

He makes more than the simple defaming charges in this case, but essentially that of murder or mass murder.

Defamation most certainly, and not the banal ' he said / she said ', 'he skimmed profits', 'has a mia noi',

or whatever more typical slanders we regularly see. So this is not a light and fluffy issue, but deadly serious.

The interpreter passed on the words of others, but in Thai legal views willingly did so. At very least the interpreter is a person needed in court to verify the truth, even if not 100% in the legal line of fire. But also consider a newspaper printing the illegal words of someone else, is also held culpable for repeating those words publicly, so I believe that is the logic behind the interpreter being charged also. Not saying this is right, just that it is.

Edited August 20, 2012 by animatic

[Buchholz]

I asked what great truth he has spoken. I shall wait with baited breath for details of his magnum opus and shall pore over it with fervor.

On the other hand if this great lawyer is committing acts of prejudice to the case in the form of presenting unproved opinions as fact, then excuse me if I pour further scorn on the individual in question.

Go and read his paper that he published in 2010. You can download the pdf from his website. Read it and then comment.

I've read it already. I found it to be full of unsubstantiated hyperbole and clearly one-eyed.

Perhaps discussion of Amsterdam's paper would be better suited to reviving the 170-post thread from 17 months ago where it was the topic.

.

[Moruya]

I asked what great truth he has spoken. I shall wait with baited breath for details of his magnum opus and shall pore over it with fervor.

On the other hand if this great lawyer is committing acts of prejudice to the case in the form of presenting unproved opinions as fact, then excuse me if I pour further scorn on the individual in question.

Go and read his paper that he published in 2010. You can download the pdf from his website. Read it and then comment.

I've read it already. I found it to be full of unsubstantiated hyperbole and clearly one-eyed.

Care to provide a brief outline of your criticisms, referenced to Amsterdam's main points, since you have "read it already"?

Don't hold your breath folks.

Yes - please don't stop breathing on my account. I would hate to be thought responsible for any deaths on such overwhelming evidence such as posting a personal opinion.

[sprq]

To sue the speaker for defamation is par for the course in Thailand, but to sue the interpreter as well is downright cowardice.

[scotbeve]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

And so would Prayuth.However's Amsterdam's main offence in his eyes (and perhaps in yours) is that he speaks no more than the truth - not a commodity valued in some quarters.However as always in Thailand the critics of Amsterdam focus on the personal, including anti Semitic slurs on occasion, rather than the substance of his charges.

What great truth has he spoken?

Other than regurgitating buckets of red bile, I can't remember anything of any substance.

I do remember the 300 dead reds or whatever the number that were supposed to have been disposed of and later turned up as piles of skins and bones from a previous catastrophe. Must have had some egg on his purple mush for that one!

Moruya,

There are still 2 persons missing from our district and news is not forthcoming to their families after asking the same questions hundreds of times..... those are real people missing and the families are still devastated...

[aaacorp]

As the translator surely used a mic I m curious to know why he didn't sue the mic, the wire, and the sound system manufacturers. Hope the sound engineers didn t gave their names....

edit > typo

Edited August 20, 2012 by aaacorp

[SouthernMan3]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

What? And transform him into a statesman, like all the other statesmen in prison?

Yea, a dead statesman....

[metisdead]

An off topic post and a reply have been removed.

[Moruya]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

And so would Prayuth.However's Amsterdam's main offence in his eyes (and perhaps in yours) is that he speaks no more than the truth - not a commodity valued in some quarters.However as always in Thailand the critics of Amsterdam focus on the personal, including anti Semitic slurs on occasion, rather than the substance of his charges.

What great truth has he spoken?

Other than regurgitating buckets of red bile, I can't remember anything of any substance.

I do remember the 300 dead reds or whatever the number that were supposed to have been disposed of and later turned up as piles of skins and bones from a previous catastrophe. Must have had some egg on his purple mush for that one!

Moruya,

There are still 2 persons missing from our district and news is not forthcoming to their families after asking the same questions hundreds of times..... those are real people missing and the families are still devastated...

So here we have a daengophilic government, a daengophilic police force, the red shirts themselves, Thaksin, Amsterdam and God knows who else and there are missing red shirts from 2010 that none of these people cares about? No photos in the papers, no "missing" posters at the rallies, nothing?

[bigbamboo]

Hmmm....... get the Chief of Police to charge the legal/PR representative of his de facto boss....?

Like that's ever gonna happen!

Amsterdam is a lawyer. They don't deal in the truth only their version of it.

Edited August 20, 2012 by bigbamboo

[GentlemanJim]

For Jayboy.

Robert Amsterdam is crossing a busy road when a bus comes and runs him over killing him on the spot. Suddenly Amsterdam finds himself at the pearly gates in front of St Peter, who is holding a very large dusty book in front of him. "Ah welcome" says St Peter, "you must be Mr Amsterdam", "yes" comes the whimpered reply, "but I am too young to die". "Nonsense" says St Peter, "you have had one of our best recorded innings. 410 years old! I think you have dodged your time long enough". "But but that is not true, I am 48 and not a day older, I am too young, please send me back! How on earth can you think I am 410 years old"? "Oh that's easy" says St Peter, "You see, we just add up all the hours you have ever charged your clients"!

And for the rest!

I think it is a dangerous precedent to try and set by trying to bring charges against the interpreter. Unless she said something of her own accord, then she is hired to ensure that the Thai people and media hear an accurate translation of Amsterdam's words. By raising charges against her it will seriously diminish the credibility of the charges against Amsterdam, and those charges are a good thing. Hopefully next time Amsterdam will think twice about squeezing in to an undersized red shirt and spouting off about things he only possesses a superficial knowledge of. As for the translator, it could be mighty hard for any government spokes person to get one in the future should the charges proceed.

[Thait Spot]

For Jayboy.

Robert Amsterdam is crossing a busy road when a bus comes and runs him over killing him on the spot. Suddenly Amsterdam finds himself at the pearly gates in front of St Peter, who is holding a very large dusty book in front of him. "Ah welcome" says St Peter, "you must be Mr Amsterdam", "yes" comes the whimpered reply, "but I am too young to die". "Nonsense" says St Peter, "you have had one of our best recorded innings. 410 years old! I think you have dodged your time long enough". "But but that is not true, I am 48 and not a day older, I am too young, please send me back! How on earth can you think I am 410 years old"? "Oh that's easy" says St Peter, "You see, we just add up all the hours you have ever charged your clients"!

And for the rest!

I think it is a dangerous precedent to try and set by trying to bring charges against the interpreter. Unless she said something of her own accord, then she is hired to ensure that the Thai people and media hear an accurate translation of Amsterdam's words. By raising charges against her it will seriously diminish the credibility of the charges against Amsterdam, and those charges are a good thing. Hopefully next time Amsterdam will think twice about squeezing in to an undersized red shirt and spouting off about things he only possesses a superficial knowledge of. As for the translator, it could be mighty hard for any government spokes person to get one in the future should the charges proceed.

my take on it is that she read out the speech at a rally.

It would be interesting to know the circumstances underwhich it was made. If Amsterdam was there and asked her to read it out, that is one thing. If she was acting as part of the red shirt movement then that's another thing altogether.

[SuneeTH]

I believe Amsterdam will go the same way as Seh Daeng went.

[McMagus]

What a lot of people are missing here is a very subtle but interesting point. I like to keep up with current events....but, I wouldn't know off the top of my head who the head / senior / general of the Australian army was, he just goes about his job, low profile, like most western public servants. Here however, I already know of this army chief. This speaks volumes about this society we have chosen to live in / escape to / be a guest of etc. etc. One of Thaksin's greatest crimes in my eyes was to use Thailand's defamation laws to silence critics, particularly the press until self censorship became the norm. It doesn't surprise me given that 'face' is so important here that this army chief is resorting to the same Thai tradition. No wonder the Thai judicial system is dysfunctional with so many cases such as this to deal with. Like a bunch of school kids playing in the sandpit. Only, it is a worry when the sandpit is a country and the school kids can get guns.

[waza]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

And so would Prayuth.However's Amsterdam's main offence in his eyes (and perhaps in yours) is that he speaks no more than the truth - not a commodity valued in some quarters.However as always in Thailand the critics of Amsterdam focus on the personal, including anti Semitic slurs on occasion, rather than the substance of his charges.

He speaks exactly what he is paid to do and as the truth would harm his employer he rarely speaks that. Do you honestly think that if Thaksin wasnt paying him he would be remotely interested in Thailand?

............Amnesty has limited itself to the human rights issues and has avoided politics. Amnesty has been in touch with Mr. Amsterdam over the past year and is aware of the substance of his claims, as well as his political strategy, for which he is compensated. In this context, Mr. Amsterdam is a paid advocate of former Thai PM Thaksin, and is thus very clearly a partisan of one side of the political crisis. This is not a value judgment on Mr. Amsterdam’s position, it is simply a factual observation that implicates a rule that Amnesty applies in its work everywhere: remain neutral, objective, and impartial. Sharing a platform with Mr. Amsterdam would place Amnesty in breach of that rule...............

Amnesty International understands that Mr. Amsterdam has presented a petition to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on the alleged commission of crimes against humanity by Thai authorities in April and May 2010. Thailand, however, has not acceded to the Rome Statute establising the ICC, meaning that the only possible way a case based on events involving Thai citizens in Thailand could reach the ICC would be through a referral by the UN Security Council................... Finally, in addressing any situation that involves accountability in Thailand, Amnesty again must maintain its neutrality and avoid political partisanship. Thus, alongside discussion of the allegations raised by Mr. Amsterdam, considerable reference would also need to be made, among other events, to the thousands of extrajudicial executions as part of Mr. Taksin’s “war on drugs” and during counter-insurgency operations in southern Thailand. Mr. Thaksin strenuously combated Amnesty’s efforts to seek accountability for these serious violations.

http://asiapacific.a...bert-amsterdam/

You are quoting Bernard Zawacki (needless to say no attribution given), a well known defender of the status quo in Thailand (or more accurately someone who desperately doesn't want to offend the elites) who has come under frequent criticism from human rights organisations.Has since changed his tune incidentally after many complaints to Amnesty International and more recently has taken a more balanced approach.This isn't to say one doesn't sympathise with his concerns aboyt Thaksin and human rights.

Huh? Whos Bernard zawacki, dont you even check the citations when you comment on a post? Wow you and Phiphidon really have no credability.

PS: Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam

April 27th, 2011 by Andrew Walker

[jayjayjayjay]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

And so would Prayuth.However's Amsterdam's main offence in his eyes (and perhaps in yours) is that he speaks no more than the truth - not a commodity valued in some quarters.However as always in Thailand the critics of Amsterdam focus on the personal, including anti Semitic slurs on occasion, rather than the substance of his charges.

He speaks exactly what he is paid to do and as the truth would harm his employer he rarely speaks that. Do you honestly think that if Thaksin wasnt paying him he would be remotely interested in Thailand?

............Amnesty has limited itself to the human rights issues and has avoided politics. Amnesty has been in touch with Mr. Amsterdam over the past year and is aware of the substance of his claims, as well as his political strategy, for which he is compensated. In this context, Mr. Amsterdam is a paid advocate of former Thai PM Thaksin, and is thus very clearly a partisan of one side of the political crisis. This is not a value judgment on Mr. Amsterdam’s position, it is simply a factual observation that implicates a rule that Amnesty applies in its work everywhere: remain neutral, objective, and impartial. Sharing a platform with Mr. Amsterdam would place Amnesty in breach of that rule...............

Amnesty International understands that Mr. Amsterdam has presented a petition to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on the alleged commission of crimes against humanity by Thai authorities in April and May 2010. Thailand, however, has not acceded to the Rome Statute establising the ICC, meaning that the only possible way a case based on events involving Thai citizens in Thailand could reach the ICC would be through a referral by the UN Security Council................... Finally, in addressing any situation that involves accountability in Thailand, Amnesty again must maintain its neutrality and avoid political partisanship. Thus, alongside discussion of the allegations raised by Mr. Amsterdam, considerable reference would also need to be made, among other events, to the thousands of extrajudicial executions as part of Mr. Taksin’s “war on drugs” and during counter-insurgency operations in southern Thailand. Mr. Thaksin strenuously combated Amnesty’s efforts to seek accountability for these serious violations.

http://asiapacific.a...bert-amsterdam/

You are quoting Bernard Zawacki (needless to say no attribution given), a well known defender of the status quo in Thailand (or more accurately someone who desperately doesn't want to offend the elites) who has come under frequent criticism from human rights organisations.Has since changed his tune incidentally after many complaints to Amnesty International and more recently has taken a more balanced approach.This isn't to say one doesn't sympathise with his concerns aboyt Thaksin and human rights.

It is interesting that so many westerners in Thailand have such hatred for everything Thaksin that they can't see the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Are we to believe Sia Dang fell over dead through a mysterious bullet from nowhere..... Wake up and smell the roses The Nation editorial staff!!!

[khunken]

I find it amazing that some are so blind (being polite here) as to bandy the word 'truth' around without paying attention to the one allegedly speaking (or writing) it.

You have Thaksin's widely disbelieved version, amplified, extended & glorified by an overpaid lawyer with little knowledge of Thailand, portrayed as the 'truth'.

There are some gullible people on this forum who seem to have forgotten or lost the ability to question statements emanating from dubious sources.

[Fozfromoz]

I find it amazing that some are so blind (being polite here) as to bandy the word 'truth' around without paying attention to the one allegedly speaking (or writing) it.

You have Thaksin's widely disbelieved version, amplified, extended & glorified by an overpaid lawyer with little knowledge of Thailand, portrayed as the 'truth'.

There are some gullible people on this forum who seem to have forgotten or lost the ability to question statements emanating from dubious sources.

So I guess then the only way to settle it would be to disprove those statements then.

[khunken]

I find it amazing that some are so blind (being polite here) as to bandy the word 'truth' around without paying attention to the one allegedly speaking (or writing) it.

You have Thaksin's widely disbelieved version, amplified, extended & glorified by an overpaid lawyer with little knowledge of Thailand, portrayed as the 'truth'.

There are some gullible people on this forum who seem to have forgotten or lost the ability to question statements emanating from dubious sources.

So I guess then the only way to settle it would be to disprove those statements then.

Only if they have any credibility, which they haven't & they've been widely disproven on Thaivisa, for what it's worth.

So the army chief is right then?

[OzMick]

It is interesting that so many westerners in Thailand have such hatred for everything Thaksin that they can't see the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Are we to believe Sia Dang fell over dead through a mysterious bullet from nowhere..... Wake up and smell the roses The Nation editorial staff!!!

Sae Daeng (aka Little Big Mouth) made himself unpopular with many factions. If, as you suggest, the RTA killed him it would only be because they no how to get a job done quickly and beat the other contenders to it. More to the point, no proof or claims to the deed exist.

[bigbamboo]

It is interesting that so many westerners in Thailand have such hatred for everything Thaksin that they can't see the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Are we to believe Sia Dang fell over dead through a mysterious bullet from nowhere..... Wake up and smell the roses The Nation editorial staff!!!

Sae Daeng (aka Little Big Mouth) made himself unpopular with many factions. If, as you suggest, the RTA killed him it would only be because they no how to get a job done quickly and beat the other contenders to it. More to the point, no proof or claims to the deed exist.

Ah, Seh Deng....... so dramatically assasinated in front of the media.

There was nothing mysterious about the bullet that killed him, that was real enough.

The mystery is why was he killed just then and who would benefit from it?

[animatic]

It is interesting that so many westerners in Thailand have such hatred for everything Thaksin that they can't see the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Are we to believe Sia Dang fell over dead through a mysterious bullet from nowhere..... Wake up and smell the roses The Nation editorial staff!!!

Sae Daeng (aka Little Big Mouth) made himself unpopular with many factions. If, as you suggest, the RTA killed him it would only be because they no how to get a job done quickly and beat the other contenders to it. More to the point, no proof or claims to the deed exist.

The list of those who would benefit form Sae Daeng's death is too long to list,

but the RTA, as a unit from top down, is not to far up on that ling list.

Individuals with-in that may be another story, but no higher than many others on the probabilities list.

He was deeply unpopular, but also madly beloved in some sectors, and thus was more useful to some as a dead martyred icon than as a commander of the resistance.

So it's not just who wanted him dead for rivalries or revenge,

but also strategic profit and reduction of risk. And the best way to do that,

is with a accurate sniper taking him out in the clear,

not the heat of battle, but great kick off a battle.

Edited August 20, 2012 by animatic

[GentlemanJim]

It is interesting that so many westerners in Thailand have such hatred for everything Thaksin that they can't see the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Are we to believe Sia Dang fell over dead through a mysterious bullet from nowhere..... Wake up and smell the roses The Nation editorial staff!!!

Sae Daeng (aka Little Big Mouth) made himself unpopular with many factions. If, as you suggest, the RTA killed him it would only be because they no how to get a job done quickly and beat the other contenders to it. More to the point, no proof or claims to the deed exist.

Ah, Seh Deng....... so dramatically assasinated in front of the media.

There was nothing mysterious about the bullet that killed him, that was real enough.

The mystery is why was he killed just then and who would benefit from it?

A good question, so lets narrow it down by reverse engineering it. Who definitely would NOT benefit from his death? Answers...Abhisit and his Government and ...The RTA.

So with that out the way, it kind of narrows the field down a bit for the answers to your excellent question.

[rubl]

"Two years ago, I was here and I witnessed the brutality of the Thai Army," Amsterdam said in the speech.

Funny, but I do not remember having seen Robert A. here at the time. Who's memory starts failing here I wonder?

[geriatrickid]

I'd like to see Amsterdam in a Thai prison

A Barney the dinosaur outfit would be more suitable for this intellectual powerhouse.

He seems to have done quite well for his clients as they press the case for fundamental human rights and basic freedoms. If it wasn't for people like him, tyrants and military dictatorships would run amuck.

Maybe you should ask his client Mikhail Khodorkovsky. This former Russian businessman is cursing the day he met Mr Amsterdam and asked him to join his legal team. Mr Amsterdam's subsequent tactic of publicly denouncing Russia as Dictatorship (true but not helpful) and the description of Mr Khodorkovsky as innocent democracy activist (hilariously off the mark, he was one of the Russian Mafia "biznessmeni" who plundered Russian assets during the "Free for All" Yeltsin years) personally angered Mr Putin, created despair among Mr K.'s russian lawyers and provided Mr Khodorkovsky with a few extra years on ridiculously trumped up charges - just to show Mr Amsterdam who had the bigger xxxxxxxxx (self censored).

I would never even remotely consider this guy to work for me.

edit: typo

And yet, all that Mr. Amsterdam stated has been demonstrated with the recent jail sentence of the women in Pussy Riot. It is quite obvious that the Russian system is corrupt and that it is impossible to receive a fair trial in Russia. The distancing from Mr. Amsterdam was part of the defence strategy. Standard good guy/bad guy m.o. One sees the same strategy with the defense of Mr. Thaksin. Mr. Amsterdam takes on the tough aspect of the case, confronting those that wish to squash basic human rights. It is far easier for Mr. Amsterdam to defend against the complaint of a Thai army general than it would be for a Thai. I respect Mr. Amsterdam as he is fearless in his fight against the fanged faciasts who seek to intimidate and sow fear in the populace.

[Buchholz]

"Two years ago, I was here and I witnessed the brutality of the Thai Army," Amsterdam said in the speech.

Funny, but I do not remember having seen Robert A. here at the time. Who's memory starts failing here I wonder?

Well, in May 2010, he was in Hong Kong.... stammering about on a number of issues such as when questioned about Thaksin funding the Red Shirts.

He also says he was in Bangkok a couple of days earlier.

.

[rubl]

Robert Amsterdam, normally a master at saying without saying.

"For an official opposition party (actually the biggest single party in the Thai parliament), never mind one of the leaders of the Red Shirt movement, to be making such utterances is truly shocking. It reveals much about the deep divisions in Thai society. Yet, if we take Peua Thai's allegations as having substance, the Thai establishment wouldn't be the first to adopt such violent, nefarious tactics in order to cling onto power."

http://asiapacific.a...n-in-bangkok-2/

See the "if we take allegations as having substance", he has a way with words. The rest of the article detailing 'strategy of tension" is a follow up on that subtle "if ... substance".

[rubl]

Robert Amsterdam, normally a master at saying without saying.

"For an official opposition party (actually the biggest single party in the Thai parliament), never mind one of the leaders of the Red Shirt movement, to be making such utterances is truly shocking. It reveals much about the deep divisions in Thai society. Yet, if we take Peua Thai's allegations as having substance, the Thai establishment wouldn't be the first to adopt such violent, nefarious tactics in order to cling onto power."

http://asiapacific.a...n-in-bangkok-2/

See the "if we take allegations as having substance", he has a way with words. The rest of the article detailing 'strategy of tension" is a follow up on that subtle "if ... substance".

Before I get too many funny remakrs, let me do it myself. Yes, it seems my memory is failing me. Robert A. was in Bangkok for a moment, just before the final crackdown it seems:

"Earlier this week the former Thai prime minister paid his lawyer Robert Amsterdam to go to Bangkok to talk to the protestors. Mr Amsterdam has now left Thailand but he spoke to me a short time ago on a mobile phone line from Hong Kong"

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2904640.htm