Army Infighting Caused Deaths During Red-Shirt Protests 2010: Academics

[hellodolly]

Clever, but do please try to be less disingenuous and a little more sincere.

Please respond to my post # 44.

You made an allegation, support it or admit your error.

I can't really believe that you (or anyone) can think that the red shirts just happened to get caught in the middle of an army factional war, where no side was supporting or being supported by the red shirts.

Are you suggesting that there were 3 factions out there during the protests?

Ok, i will let it go.

You cannot support what you wrote, insist on more obfuscation and fail to answer directly.

Sad, but typical.

Mods, this exchange is closed on my side.

Actually I don't believe you did deny it. I believe you denied they were red shirts.

[hellodolly]

"The group, calling itself the Information Centre of People Affected by the Crackdowns on Demonstrations in April-May 2010, presented its 933-page draft report on the political unrest in 2010 at a press conference at Thammasat University".

The I.C.P.A.C.D.A.M.2010, never heard of them.

I wonder if they are the ones putting out the in depth poll's taken periodically. You know the ones taken in around 20 provinces and any where 1,500 to 2,000 hand picked people to answer them.

I really liked this little piece

"She said the TRCT had neglected to find out whether the authorities had violated the rights of the demonstrators so the centre would do its best to uncover the truth and make it known to the public."

violated the rights of the demonstrators. She honestly believes the demonstrators had the right to take over the heart of the business district invade hospitals and try to burn Bangkok down. Just more proof that some of the dumbest people I know are Collage Graduates.

Thaksin does seem to attracts the more intellectually challenged from Thai society, whether they are academics, artists or not. This fact is clearly demonstrated here on TVF and with the redshirt leadership. As we are well aware in Thailand eductional degrees are a matter of money rather than intellect, even if its an arts degree.

Please excuse me, but I do have a problem with this especially since you feel free to limit yourself to 'Thai society'. Very unfairly you seem to try to exclude some of the finer foreign intellect (posting here), some even educated in England's well known universities like Hull and Cambridge

If you are referring to my post I make no restrictions. That was a idea that I came up with in Canada many years ago.

[rubl]

I wonder if they are the ones putting out the in depth poll's taken periodically. You know the ones taken in around 20 provinces and any where 1,500 to 2,000 hand picked people to answer them.

I really liked this little piece

"She said the TRCT had neglected to find out whether the authorities had violated the rights of the demonstrators so the centre would do its best to uncover the truth and make it known to the public."

violated the rights of the demonstrators. She honestly believes the demonstrators had the right to take over the heart of the business district invade hospitals and try to burn Bangkok down. Just more proof that some of the dumbest people I know are Collage Graduates.

Thaksin does seem to attracts the more intellectually challenged from Thai society, whether they are academics, artists or not. This fact is clearly demonstrated here on TVF and with the redshirt leadership. As we are well aware in Thailand eductional degrees are a matter of money rather than intellect, even if its an arts degree.

Please excuse me, but I do have a problem with this especially since you feel free to limit yourself to 'Thai society'. Very unfairly you seem to try to exclude some of the finer foreign intellect (posting here), some even educated in England's well known universities like Hull and Cambridge

If you are referring to my post I make no restrictions. That was a idea that I came up with in Canada many years ago.

To be more clear, I was replying to waza's post. With the 'Hull and Cambridge' I was just poking a bit of fun at our local intellectual jayboy, who's from the other great university, not Oxford. You need to watch the Blackadder goes forth episode 5 General Hospital where you'll find this dialogue

"Edmund: I then leapt on the opportunity to test you. I asked if he'd been to one of the great universities: Oxford, Cambridge, or Hull...

Mary: Well?

Edmund: You failed to spot that only two of those are great universities.

Mary: You swine!

Melchett: That's right -- Oxford's a complete dump!"

[hellodolly]

The fact that there was a lot of ill-feeling (murderous hatred?) between different regiments in the Thai army is widely reported. The obvious bias to a particular regiment in regards to promotions left others extremely bitter

Well no it is not widely known. And if it is true how do you know those particular regiments were even there. Wold you care to cite sources other than red shirt denials.

Have you considered changing your name to two words one you all ready have and the other is brain.

Have you considered becoming a little more knowledgeable about the whole affair before claiming others have @#$% for brains? Resorting to abuse certainly speaks volumes about your ability to engage in intellectual debate. Anyway..without sinking to your level... Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

There are a lot of people in the army.My point is so what. It is a common element in all army's to have jealousy about promotions. And what has this got to do with the army stopping a bunch of terrorists. That is there job and they did it. I see by you bio you started here in January of 2012. You should have been here when it was all happening and the red shirts had demands that were made to end it all and when they Government excepted them they changed their minds and continued with the hostilities.

It was a choice the red shirts made and had nothing to do with infighting in the Army. Before you post do some research. As I said the article was conclusions the writer had come to and I don't for one moment doubt some of them were true. Only a idiot would believe that does not happen in Army's all over the world. They had nothing to do with the 2010 troubles.

[birdpooguava]

The fact that there was a lot of ill-feeling (murderous hatred?) between different regiments in the Thai army is widely reported. The obvious bias to a particular regiment in regards to promotions left others extremely bitter

Well no it is not widely known. And if it is true how do you know those particular regiments were even there. Wold you care to cite sources other than red shirt denials.

Have you considered changing your name to two words one you all ready have and the other is brain.

Have you considered becoming a little more knowledgeable about the whole affair before claiming others have @#$% for brains? Resorting to abuse certainly speaks volumes about your ability to engage in intellectual debate. Anyway..without sinking to your level... Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

There are a lot of people in the army.My point is so what. It is a common element in all army's to have jealousy about promotions. And what has this got to do with the army stopping a bunch of terrorists. That is there job and they did it. I see by you bio you started here in January of 2012. You should have been here when it was all happening and the red shirts had demands that were made to end it all and when they Government excepted them they changed their minds and continued with the hostilities.

It was a choice the red shirts made and had nothing to do with infighting in the Army. Before you post do some research. As I said the article was conclusions the writer had come to and I don't for one moment doubt some of them were true. Only a idiot would believe that does not happen in Army's all over the world. They had nothing to do with the 2010 troubles.

I have been in Thailand for 13 years and was certainly following the events of 2001-2010++ closely. Army's Armies throughout history and around the world have experienced deadly infighting.

[waza]

Thats great Mr birdpooguava khi nok Farang then you would be well aware, even in Issan, of the increased factionisation of thai society during that period and at the heart of that disturbance has been one greedy, self centered man.

Edited August 20, 2012 by waza

[Buchholz]

Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

How did Thaksin's cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, manage to survive as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and how has Thaksin's brother in law, General Priewpan Damapong, manage to survive as National Police Chief?

After all, both of them were handpicked and promoted ahead of more experienced candidates making them a target of jealousy and hatred.

.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Buchholz

[jerrysteve]

Obviously Academics must maintain their Academichood by publishing once in a while; depite the fact whether its garbage or not; I wonder

where they obtained their degrees from.

[Moruya]

The fact that there was a lot of ill-feeling (murderous hatred?) between different regiments in the Thai army is widely reported. The obvious bias to a particular regiment in regards to promotions left others extremely bitter

Well no it is not widely known. And if it is true how do you know those particular regiments were even there. Wold you care to cite sources other than red shirt denials.

Have you considered changing your name to two words one you all ready have and the other is brain.

Have you considered becoming a little more knowledgeable about the whole affair before claiming others have @#$% for brains? Resorting to abuse certainly speaks volumes about your ability to engage in intellectual debate. Anyway..without sinking to your level... Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

Bird

[OzMick]

Have you considered becoming a little more knowledgeable about the whole affair before claiming others have @#$% for brains? Resorting to abuse certainly speaks volumes about your ability to engage in intellectual debate. Anyway..without sinking to your level... Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

I think you are far over-exaggerating feelings of envy. However, from that exaggeration, leaping to a conclusion that the envious would lead a murderous attack on a command post staffed by many senior and junior officers is quite incredible, and IMHO is based on the mistaken belief that anybody in the military is prepared to kill to achieve their goals.

Do you believe the officers carried out this alleged attack themselves or used enlisted personnel? How did they access weapons (M-79 grenades and launchers) whose use was temporarily banned, without the knowledge of Armoury staff?

You might ask then how officers quite prepared to discuss their feelings of envy with a journalist managed to keep this a secret in an environment where rumours are rife?

[AleG]

Have you considered becoming a little more knowledgeable about the whole affair before claiming others have @#$% for brains? Resorting to abuse certainly speaks volumes about your ability to engage in intellectual debate. Anyway..without sinking to your level... Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

I think you are far over-exaggerating feelings of envy. However, from that exaggeration, leaping to a conclusion that the envious would lead a murderous attack on a command post staffed by many senior and junior officers is quite incredible, and IMHO is based on the mistaken belief that anybody in the military is prepared to kill to achieve their goals.

Do you believe the officers carried out this alleged attack themselves or used enlisted personnel? How did they access weapons (M-79 grenades and launchers) whose use was temporarily banned, without the knowledge of Armoury staff?

You might ask then how officers quite prepared to discuss their feelings of envy with a journalist managed to keep this a secret in an environment where rumours are rife?

As usual, Red Shirt supporters do the Through-the-looking-glass maneuver. Some shadowy army element may have been behind the killing of Romklao.

Through the looking glass because it is well known who, and on what side carried out a bomb attack against the then Army chief, why, none other that Kattiya himself. It´s always someone else, anyone BUT Red Shirts and their "associates". Pass the blame, deflect, project, project, project!

"Army infighting caused deads during the Red Shirts protests" gee... no s**t?

[birdpooguava]

Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

How did Thaksin's cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, manage to survive as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and how has Thaksin's brother in law, General Priewpan Damapong, manage to survive as National Police Chief?

After all, both of them were handpicked and promoted ahead of more experienced candidates making them a target of jealousy and hatred.

.

Yes they were certainly serious assassination targets. That's probably why they wouldn't go near the front line of a street battle

[birdpooguava]

[

As usual, Red Shirt supporters do the Through-the-looking-glass maneuver. Some shadowy army element may have been behind the killing of Romklao.

Through the looking glass because it is well known who, and on what side carried out a bomb attack against the then Army chief, why, none other that Kattiya himself. It´s always someone else, anyone BUT Red Shirts and their "associates". Pass the blame, deflect, project, project, project!

"Army infighting caused deads during the Red Shirts protests" gee... no s**t?

AS usual red-shirt opponents claiming to know the truth. If it is 'well known' to you who killed C. Romklao you better get your know-it-all backside to the nearest police station and sort it all out.

[RogueExpat]

How did Thaksin's cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, manage to survive as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and how has Thaksin's brother in law, General Priewpan Damapong, manage to survive as National Police Chief?

After all, both of them were handpicked and promoted ahead of more experienced candidates making them a target of jealousy and hatred.

.

Yes they were certainly serious assassination targets. That's probably why they wouldn't go near the front line of a street battle

Not surprised with Priewopan's record that he would worry about assasination...... And yes, it would be rare to see a coward go near the front line. Photo op's only for him.

Btw - rather inflammatory nic. you have, unless you are referring to yourself. Farangkeenok.

[Bagwan]

If they are such an esteemed group of academics, surely they could have summerised down 933 pages? You average ajarn would not have had the patience to read that and would have have thrown it back at the student. I would thus conclude that its not the quality academic piece that it claims to be?

You want a high quality report and summation from people more concerned with the length of the female students skirts? Come to think of it, I'm in the same camp.

[Bagwan]

What if there is some truth to their assertion ?

It is a theory that I have heard raised before and it raises some very serious questions.

Re your gullibility?

You find the concept of foreign mercenaries completely unacceptable, but brother officers of the RTA deciding to murder each other is plausible? Maroon.

I actually think the possibility that there were Russian mercenaries involved ( your original assertion ) to be startlingly laughable.

However given the known tensions within the Thai military, it is quite plausible and a distinct possibility, that brother officers did in fact murder each other.

They do have considerable form and experience of murdering their brother Thais, do they not ??

Thanks for your opinion on my gullibility and other than a cake, colour, pyrotechnic or obscure Napoleonic Guard, what is a maroon ???

Or were you trying to say "moron"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=maroon

I thought that he thought you deserved the Ben Gunn treatment. Say cheese.

[birdpooguava]

How did Thaksin's cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, manage to survive as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and how has Thaksin's brother in law, General Priewpan Damapong, manage to survive as National Police Chief?

After all, both of them were handpicked and promoted ahead of more experienced candidates making them a target of jealousy and hatred.

.

Yes they were certainly serious assassination targets. That's probably why they wouldn't go near the front line of a street battle

Not surprised with Priewopan's record that he would worry about assasination...... And yes, it would be rare to see a coward go near the front line. Photo op's only for him.

Btw - rather inflammatory nic. you have, unless you are referring to yourself. Farangkeenok.

What names don't refer to oneself????

Do you know what farangkeenok means?

What is inflammatory about a variety of Thai guava?

[waza]

Yes Col. Romklao was in one of the feuding factions and he had also been handpicked and promoted ahead of other more experienced candidates making him a target of jealousy and hatred.

How did Thaksin's cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, manage to survive as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and how has Thaksin's brother in law, General Priewpan Damapong, manage to survive as National Police Chief?

After all, both of them were handpicked and promoted ahead of more experienced candidates making them a target of jealousy and hatred.

.

Yes they were certainly serious assassination targets. That's probably why they wouldn't go near the front line of a street battle

Your Redmist propaganda is making you look like a complete tool. So you believe Military officers dressed as blackshirts so they could move amongst the redshirts to frag Col Romklao. Keep pushing the redshirt/ Amsterdam cover story.

Red shirts killed Col Romklao Thuwatham during violent clashes in April 2010, Department of Special Investigation chief Tarit Pengdith revealed yesterday.

Mr Tarit said United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship supporters had been responsible for the murder of Col Romklao. 21/04/2012 at 07:41 PM

[yoshiwara]

'According to the report, as seen by The Nation, not all the killings at Kokwua Intersection were committed by the "men in black" as claimed by the then Democrat government.'

There are two interesting points here:

1. Recognition of the existence of the blackshirts

2. Recognition that the blackshirts did some of the killings

....................Let's listen to the forum redshirt apologists swallow and choke on that.

As expected they choked. And then the cleanup begins. Number 1: deny, deny, deny that the blackshirts were the organised armed wing of the reds. Number 2: Nothing to do with Seh Daeng. Seh Daeng was a hero! ......Now everybody else can look on in amazement as they desperately split hairs on a mission of recovery.

[birdpooguava]

Once the identity, organisation, funding, commanding, ... of the 'black shirts' is proven all will be in agreement. Until then, anyone claiming to know what happened is the 'tool'.

[rubl]

Just as a reminder for those like me with fading memory problems, from the 19th of May, 2012:

"Altogether 22 deaths might have been due to state officials, the DSI chief said, adding several cases are already in court.

Mr Tharit however noted that among 89 deaths, 12 were believed to have been killed by the red shirts, while in another 55 cases the identity of the killers were not yet identified.

The DSI chief said that in the case of Col Romklao Thuwatham, Deputy Chief of Staff of the 2nd Infantry Division who died on April 10, 2010 during security operations at Khok Wua intersection, has been classified as the action of the red shirts."

http://www.thaivisa....10-protest-dsi/

[philw]

I can't remember who coined the word "frotherer" on the forum, but would humbly and respectfully add the word "splutterer" to describe those who immediately resort to insults and denigration of others who do not quite hold their world view, or assessment of what happened during this very bad period of Thai history.

[rubl]

I can't remember who coined the word "frotherer" on the forum, but would humbly and respectfully add the word "splutterer" to describe those who immediately resort to insults and denigration of others who do not quite hold their world view, or assessment of what happened during this very bad period of Thai history.

No idea who started with 'frother', but seeing k. Bird Poo liked the post I searched a little bit and found this:

"You are obviously not familiar with the lack of due process in The Ratchada case. Frother"

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5257370

[waza]

I can't remember who coined the word "frotherer" on the forum, but would humbly and respectfully add the word "splutterer" to describe those who immediately resort to insults and denigration of others who do not quite hold their world view, or assessment of what happened during this very bad period of Thai history.

I believe in calling a spade a spade and when some tools try to suggest that men in the military who are murdered while on duty, protecting the safety and freedom of their fellow citizens, were the victims of a jealous rage perpetrated by their fellow comrades, I am deeply offended.

It like rubbing salt into the wound when these poster belittle their sarcrafice by covering up the actions of their convicted criminal hero, who orchestrated the situation that led to their murders and the subsequent deaths of many more. If thats what it means to be a frother then I wear that label with pride.

[ThaiOats]

Once the identity, organisation, funding, commanding, ... of the 'black shirts' is proven all will be in agreement. Until then, anyone claiming to know what happened is the 'tool'.

Could the same be said for the identity of the Paymaster and his/her involvement in the Red Shirt protest or are we going to deny that? It's possible that the 'black shirts' were military personnel paid to mingle with the crowd in order to shoot their own and if you believe that, there's nothing anyone can do to stop your beliefs (much like religion). At the same time, it's also possible that the 'black shirts' were hired mercenaries or rebel soldiers used to repel the military. One belief is as good as the other.

[hellodolly]

Once the identity, organisation, funding, commanding, ... of the 'black shirts' is proven all will be in agreement. Until then, anyone claiming to know what happened is the 'tool'.

Could the same be said for the identity of the Paymaster and his/her involvement in the Red Shirt protest or are we going to deny that? It's possible that the 'black shirts' were military personnel paid to mingle with the crowd in order to shoot their own and if you believe that, there's nothing anyone can do to stop your beliefs (much like religion). At the same time, it's also possible that the 'black shirts' were hired mercenaries or rebel soldiers used to repel the military. One belief is as good as the other.

And if the black shirts were mercenaries the red shirts were there support. They could not operate with out the red shirt support. All armies have support troops in the back lines doing the preparing and shipping of goods for the soldiers. And they are just as big a part of the war as the man on the front lines. Makes no difference if you are stirring a bowl of soup in the back ground of if you are on the front line holding your kid in front of you. They were all 'guilty.

Scum to the core. Put people out of business leave the place like a garbage dump. And when they got home here in Chiang Mai they celebrated threatening to burn down two shopping centers and burning a fire engine down.

And to top it ll off the Government paid there way home.

[MAJIC]

Well that's an interesting new (to me at least) theory, it wasn't the armed black-shirts, mingling amongst the red-shirt protesters, who did it but another army-faction.

But at least its agreed ("not all the killings") that some of the troops were shot by the black-shirts.

Perhaps they can also tell us who hired the Blackshirts,or will that not be on the Agenda??

[ThaiOats]

Once the identity, organisation, funding, commanding, ... of the 'black shirts' is proven all will be in agreement. Until then, anyone claiming to know what happened is the 'tool'.

Could the same be said for the identity of the Paymaster and his/her involvement in the Red Shirt protest or are we going to deny that? It's possible that the 'black shirts' were military personnel paid to mingle with the crowd in order to shoot their own and if you believe that, there's nothing anyone can do to stop your beliefs (much like religion). At the same time, it's also possible that the 'black shirts' were hired mercenaries or rebel soldiers used to repel the military. One belief is as good as the other.

And if the black shirts were mercenaries the red shirts were there support. They could not operate with out the red shirt support. All armies have support troops in the back lines doing the preparing and shipping of goods for the soldiers. And they are just as big a part of the war as the man on the front lines. Makes no difference if you are stirring a bowl of soup in the back ground of if you are on the front line holding your kid in front of you. They were all 'guilty.

Scum to the core. Put people out of business leave the place like a garbage dump. And when they got home here in Chiang Mai they celebrated threatening to burn down two shopping centers and burning a fire engine down.

And to top it ll off the Government paid there way home.

So with what you have said, it's unreasonable for the Red shirts to support the black shirts IF they were indeed military personnel dressed in black. In other words, why would the red shirts be supporting the enemy correct? This would also support the conclusion that the black shirts and the army were not in cahoots. To deny this, you would have to deny that there were no black shirts or show that the red shirts were also retaliating against the black shirts.

There's much to debate about whether or not it's okay to support armed militants and still be labeled as a passive, non-violent,peaceful protester. After all, if they were indeed voluntarily becoming a human shield then at what point do they become an accomplice and liable for their actions? I don't have an answer for that one but I would reckon that snipers be deployed to take out these armed men without harming the unarmed. Of course, the military denying that snipers were deployed without live ammunition is questionable and flat out denying that army personnel killed any protesters is pretty unbelievable, possible, but unbelievable.

[Buchholz]

I can't remember who coined the word "frotherer" on the forum, but would humbly and respectfully add the word "splutterer" to describe those who immediately resort to insults and denigration of others who do not quite hold their world view, or assessment of what happened during this very bad period of Thai history.

No idea who started with 'frother', but seeing k. Bird Poo liked the post I searched a little bit and found this:

"You are obviously not familiar with the lack of due process in The Ratchada case. Frother"

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5257370

geriatrickid's post, just coincidentally I suppose, on April 1st, predates that entry by nearly a month.

.

[Ricardo]

Well that's an interesting new (to me at least) theory, it wasn't the armed black-shirts, mingling amongst the red-shirt protesters, who did it but another army-faction.

But at least its agreed ("not all the killings") that some of the troops were shot by the black-shirts.

Perhaps they can also tell us who hired the Blackshirts,or will that not be on the Agenda??

I look forward to hearing what the Big Boss tells the various investigations, even if i don't necessarily think it will happen, and didn't DPM Super-Chalerm claim to know who they were, when will he share his information with the rest of the world unambiguously ?

Meanwhile one can only observe that the black-shirted ronin appeared to mingle freely, and without hinderance, amongst the crowds of Red-Shirt more-peaceful protesters whom Seh Daeng claimed they were there to defend, and draw one's own conclusions.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Ricardo