jamles Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 As part of our USArmy orientation to Thailand in 1971 we received a few lessons in Thai language and culture from a native Thai teacher. We were taught two ways of saying 'excuse me', kor todt ขอโทษ and also kor yaadt. The teacher explained that kor yaadt was more useful for occasions such as making your way through a crowd politely. I don't hear kor yaadt used and cannot find it in the dictionary. Is anyone familiar this term? Is it still in use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The term ขอยาด is still in use, albeit infrequently. The "yaat" bit is pretty meaningless, adding a sense of something like "a lot" or "for a long time". For making your way through a crowd ขอทาง is more usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamles Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Thanks, AyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I must admit I'd never heard this before, so I googled "ขอยาด", with the quote marks... the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย. So, could ขอยาด be a shortened form of ขออนุญาต? It appears it is: Google gives 45,000 hits for "ขอญาต", and another 31,000 for "ขอญาติ" (since อนุญาต is frequently misspelled as อนุญาติ). While some of the ขอญาติ results might refer to requesting something from relatives and not be misspellings at all, most seem to be in the context of asking for permission, or ขออนุญาต. Incidentally, "ขอโทษ" returns nearly 35 million results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamles Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Well done, Peppy. You're right on. I just checked the dictionary at thai-language.com and they list ขออนุญาต and define it as: to ask for permission - "Excuse me" Seems like a nice, polite phrase. I wonder why it or the shortened form ขอ 'ญาต are not used more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย. Sorry, this sounds like total <deleted> to me. Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script. There is no way in narok that yaat is anuyaat with a few missing characters and an apostrophe. I can't be bothered to point out the problems with the confusion between "relatives" and "permission". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I must admit on reading the OP I thought it was from ขออนุญาต too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script. True, but that doesn't stop people from using them occasionally. The logo for the TV show "ซุป'ตาร์ on stage" has one, and it shows up in around a third of websites talking about the show: As I mentioned before, it's quite commonly used to write "มหา'ลัย". Here are some examples: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Where is the "r" on the end of kɔ jaat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamles Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 There is no 'r', per se, in ขอ'ญาต. 'or', along with 'o', 'aw', 'aaw' and others like the special character backward 'c's are attmepts at phonetic transliteration of the vowel อ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Let's just call it kอ jaat then if we are going to transliterate since the backwards "c" was impossible to type on this forum. ย is actually a "j", not a "y". A "y" is a vowel close to "i". Just have a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) The phonetic alphabet is indeed a useful system if you're serious about learning several languages, or even just one other language that's written in Roman script. The problem with it, though, is that it isn't Roman script--it's a whole other alphabet, and a lot of people can't be bothered to learn that. Particularly if you're only studying a single foreign language written in a non-Roman script--it's easier just to learn the script the language is usually written in. For the people doing this, and for the people who'd like to see what's written but can't read the native script, some form of transcription/transliteration is necessary, preferably one based on a script they're familiar with. Most British people, I think, would agree that ขอ sounds like khor--but then, most Americans would say it sounds like khaw. The problem is that British people don't pronounce the final "r", so the British "or" in fact sounds more or less like the American "aw". It might be confusing, but it's still easier than backwards c's, IMO. Of course, with "y", there's really no debate: In English, "y" followed by a vowel sounds like ย. (Well, except for "eye", but you get my drift.) Edited August 23, 2012 by Peppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) The phonetic alphabet is indeed a useful system if you're serious about learning several languages, or even just one other language that's written in Roman script. The problem with it, though, is that it isn't Roman script--it's a whole other alphabet, and a lot of people can't be bothered to learn that. Particularly if you're only studying a single foreign language written in a non-Roman script--it's easier just to learn the script the language is usually written in. For the people doing this, and for the people who'd like to see what's written but can't read the native script, some form of transcription/transliteration is necessary, preferably one based on a script they're familiar with. Most British people, I think, would agree that ขอ sounds like khor--but then, most Americans would say it sounds like khaw. The problem is that British people don't pronounce the final "r", so the British "or" in fact sounds more or less like the American "aw". It might be confusing, but it's still easier than backwards c's, IMO. Of course, with "y", there's really no debate: In English, "y" followed by a vowel sounds like ย. (Well, except for "eye", but you get my drift.) And the problem with transliterations is just that, it would have to be suited to various languages. ขอ- Kaw (American English) Kor (British English) Co (Spanish) Kå (Scandinavian languages) "ย" is phonetically a "j" and not a "y"... "Y" is a vowel in itself. There is no debate. Just have a look the the phonetic alphabet. Edited August 23, 2012 by n00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 ขอ- Kå (Scandinavian languages) Not in Chiangmai Swedish, though at the time Meadish objected it matched the Swedish of the Swede sitting behind me at work. It's a shame, because as disambiguated RTGS, which we used when this forum was new, -ååi for -อย would have been a lot better than -ori or -awi. That 'å' is a mix of 'a' and 'o', as in 'Aoi', is immediately memorable. (Unfortunately, 'ao' is taken by its use in works like [R]khao 'he, she, they'.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadish_sweetball Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 There are many dialects in Sweden and the vowel sounds do vary. In Stockholm Swedish and many of the surrounding dialects, including my own, long A corresponds most closely to the Thai อ in ขอ whereas long Å corresponds more closely to Thai โ in โค. This Swedish alphabet chart demonstrates this quite clearly if you press "Aa" and "Åå" buttons (listen closely to the sound and try to avoid thinking about the symbol it is associated with): http://swedishalphabet.tripod.com/alpha.swf That being said, 'short' å in Swedish, for example in 'råtta' (rat) is closer to Thai อ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Wouldn't transliterating Thai into Swedish make more sense on a Swedish-language forum? In all seriousness, though, the IPA is great, but it really isn't that much more accessible to the average Joe than Thai script is. So if we're going to transliterate Thai into Roman script on an English-language forum, I'd say we should approximate Thai sounds by using their closest sounds in English, and stand by "y" for ย ยักษ์. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadish_sweetball Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I do believe we tried to develop a system back in the Dark Ages of the forum, but it did not really catch on, even among the most prolific posters. I think there are many reasons why none of the systems developed so far have gained universal popularity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaanbrit Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 the seventh out of 76,000 results had it with an apostrophe before ยาด, like this: ขอ'ยาด. This got me thinking: shortened Thai words are (very) occasionally written with an apostrophe, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย -> มหา'ลัย. Sorry, this sounds like total <deleted> to me. Apostrophes are not a part of Thai script. There is no way in narok that yaat is anuyaat with a few missing characters and an apostrophe. I can't be bothered to point out the problems with the confusion between "relatives" and "permission". No way in hell? You sound pretty sure of yourself, which is ironic seeing as your wrong - lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaanbrit Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Any, by the way, it has nothing to do with "relatives' - อนุญาติ just happens to have ญาติ in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterbiker49 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Any, by the way, it has nothing to do with "relatives' - อนุญาติ just happens to have ญาติ in it Can u learn-ed gents help me with learning Thai as far as best way,learning etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaanbrit Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 For me, Masterbiker, the only way that worked was to go and live in the middle of no-where for a year or two. Basically the crucial thing is to be around Thai people and, ideally, in a situation where no-one speaks English. I worked in a small company where everyone was Thai for my first 6 months in Thailand and that's where I learnt most of my Thai. I would thoroughly recommend the same thing - find some small Thai company in the provinces that has some relations with foreigners and go work for them editing their emails, etc and hanging out with their staff. ))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaccha Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Do Thais use the word 'sorry' when walking into other Thais...? I think they do. But sometimes they appear to pause before using with me as if doing a quick translation in their heads.... So has the word "sorry" become Thai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriswillems Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) It happens also very often to me that they use "sorry" while all the rest is Thai. I've also heard Thai use "sorry" when talking together when I am around. I guess it has become part of Thai, like many other English words, like "confirm". A funny thing is that older Thai people sometimes really don't understand the younger people because they use a few English words. Edited September 1, 2012 by kriswillems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I was always under the impression that ขอยาด kor-yaht was always just a shortened version of ขออนุญาต kor-anoo-yaht. Hear it quite regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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