Farang Men Who Have Healthy Relationships With Thai Men

[dukkha]

Are we an insignificant minority in this sub-culture...always interested in hearing some optimistic stuff rather than what appears to dominate this forum.....oooops and only a newbie who has already been attacked for a perceived grudge...happy posting to some intelligent men in The Kingdom...

Edited January 24, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[PeaceBlondie]

Good question, dukkha (I only edited the attempts at the front of your post to be in color, bold, or font size). There are lots of successful relationships. Your current relationship is a good example, and I managed to maintain ten months of a rather good LTR. Aren't some other posters here still in much longer relationships?

[dukkha]

In no small way my increased confidence in posting has risen from some of the understanding expressed, especially todays post, of Pacebianco...no rub my back you rub my back rather an understanding gained from decades of understanding oneself and the entire mundo...have never been a group member so this is daunting in its own way...however given the encouragement to express some of ones life experiences is indeed acceptable...they have all said..'Write the Book'..but laziness and a lack of passion have reduced it all to Thai Visa.commmmm....so those of you have been willing to speak with intimacy about your experiences here are to be commended not in any way to be as an object of 'grudge'...on the contary I admire people who are able to write with honesty about their lives....however mine is kept to my jourmal until some publisher whisks me away to literary heights...get a grip...

[jdinasia]

Dukkha ... having a decent healthy relationship with Thai guys is relatively easy.

Meet decent employed guys and then treat them like human beings worthy of respect and insist on the same.

Don't date guys here that you would not have dated at home. I had rules for dating back home that were pretty simple. Over 24 years old. Employed well enough to cover his own bills. Able to hold interesting conversations. <if you don't speak Thai with some fluency then he'll need to speak English>

My personal experience in Thailand has been very fortunate. Met a great guy and stayed together for 2 years. He's 26, an engineer, owns his house and car outright etc. Not to mention being incredibly cute! I never once felt compelled to snoop into his wallet, email, etc. Mainly because decent people don't act that way. But also because he never gave me reason to. I know that i certainly would have walked away before I lowered myself to that level.

Be nice to hear from other people with success stories here too!

[PeaceBlondie]

jdinasia, the bit about looking into the boyfriend's wallet was well founded, after maybe a year of trusting someone who turned out to be a champion liar. The farang boyfriend had reason (probable cause) to be in the wallet in the first place, and his worst fears were confirmed.

No, in the two years I was with my first LTR in Thailand, there was never any occasion to doubt that everything he'd told me was true, so there were no wallet searches.

It's like a lot of other things: when you get lucky (or you deserve it), you get a real gem. The deceivers, however, need to have their wallet checked on occasion. At least to check that they're of legal age.

Agreed: let's hear some more success stories.

[ChrisP]

Well, I consider mine a healthy relationship.. and it's one of the hard ones, being a 2 years Long Distance LTR where I don't live in LOS (yet). I do get to BKK many times though.. which helps - and now we have Skype and a Cam!.

It hasn't cost me my wallet, it's fun, loving, supportive (but he DOES have "moods" to get past sometimes).. he's also employed, educated, CUTE and he speaks great English..

ChrisP

[jdinasia]

jdinasia, the bit about looking into the boyfriend's wallet was well founded, after maybe a year of trusting someone who turned out to be a champion liar. The farang boyfriend had reason (probable cause) to be in the wallet in the first place, and his worst fears were confirmed.

Peace, while I recognize that you advocate that form of gross invasion of privacy, I absolutely do not. I'd toss a guy out that was in my wallet or email etc without my permission without a second thought! If I was at the point that I felt the need to invade someone's personal space that way I'd toss them out before I stooped that low. If someone feels like something is "wrong" for an extended period of time why the hel_l would they keep that wrong thing in their life? (Unless a deep-seated need not to be alone or to live on the edge?)

I've truly enjoyed my life in Thailand and so far have avoided so many of the snags trips and falls that often trip up farang here. It may be moving here a bit younger than most. It may be having had time to learn some Thai and not having to work. It may be that I already knew who I was when I got here. I knew that the Silom/Suriwongse areas were nowhere like "Real Thailand" ((and that Babylon/Chakran kinda is!))

Stick with sane limits and when things seem wrong just bail-out ... do this and people will be fine! Yes, most of my Thai friends are Dr's and Lawyers and engineers/computer pros. Yes a few are also students and clerks and just aerage employees. I know plenty of "boys" that work in the bars in Pattaya and a couple that work in Phuket that I have met when off and about touring. Even those guys have been great. I still think that the primary reason I have been "lucky" here is that I stick to a way of approaching life and people with respect and have little tolerance of people who do not.

Hope that all here have happy lives and find love that works for them and their partners.

[ProThaiExpat]

My caveat in answering dukkha's original question is the adjective he used as a qualifier, "healthy".

Too often we act as "doctors" is judging relationships in this fourm, in my view. If one accepts the proposition that any relationship that "works" for the participants is a "healthy one", then I can raise my hand.

My fourth year anniversary is next month and my relationship takes a lot more "work" than it did during the first year, but then again, the honeymoon year in any LTR is probably the same.

I remain monogomous, caring and loving of my Thai and have no eyes for others. While I "window" shop, as most do, the "desire" for "hot bods" is just not there, so I conclude that I am in love with my Thai and I know I don't want to be apart from him. He makes my day, every day, except for the rare one when we are at odds.

Most of the "problems" I have had with him were in my own mind. Example: the "wallet search" issue spoken of heretofore.

I have learned, over time, much of my loves past that was not revealed to me, except through "wallet search" type events. My western mental culture would have mandated a complete confession, in the early months of our time together, of negative experiences he went through before meeting me.

He chose not to bring these events up, feeling that there was no point in revealing his "mistakes". I felt good revealing my "mistakes" to him, including old loves. Who is to say he is "wrong" in choosing not to reveal them. I am sure his trust of me came a lot later due to my "confessions".

And on and on it goes. It seems to me that choosing the "love course" in life is fraught with emotional danger and even financial danger, but "nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes.

I am far happier with him than without him, so I guess I must say my relationship with him is "healthy" for me. The cultural divide takes a lot of extra relationship "work" than my prior relationships with western lads, but then this relaionship has brought me a lot more happiness in the long term than any other, so the work is certainly worth it.

We are a least a generation apart in age and when one really thinks of it, that alone is a "bridge too far". We don't share many same generation experiences, ie. songs, movie stars, music, culture, etc. Its should be no "surpirise" that we face our problems and daily challenges from not only a cultural divide but a generational one as well. As the years pile up, we are building a "history" of "moments" together that surely is the "cement" of any relationship.

Learning to live in the "moment" is really the only way to live, but so few of us are ever able to do it. I am working at that, and so for now, I am in what I consider a healthy relationship with my Thai and that should be enough for anyone.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, this will be an interesting thread. Perhaps some posters will finally regale us with the details of their highly successful relationships, though so far such details seem sparse indeed- with the exception of PTEP, who has always seemed happy and at peace with himself and others on this forum, and ChrisP, whose boyfriend I have met. I also met PB's last LTR, and he was quite nice.

"Steven"

Edited January 25, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

Pssst- by the way, is it a requirement for me to mention a wallet to post in this thread? O. gave me a wallet for my birthday last year- quite a nice copy of a brand name, too, though I think I carry too many cards in it- so the edges are starting to fray a bit. His wallet is one of these "cool" punk-style affairs- large, wide black leather with a heavy metal belt chain attached.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

Your thread title implies "any Thai men", gay or straight. OK, OK, I know this is a gay forum, but I'm intrigued about "Healthy relationships with STRAIGHT Thai men", too. It poses some unusual challenges but some nice rewards. Start a new thread or continue here?

[Ijustwannateach]

Go for it!

[PeaceBlondie]

toptuan, not to be censoring your post at all, but I think there's a separate thread or two in the General forum about "Do you have any male Thai friends?" and "Do you have any male farang friends?" In case I'm dreaming this from another forum, it would be good to start such a thread in the general forum.

I suspect there are a fairly high number of successful or healthy gay Thai-farang LTR examples around Thailand, but they don't all post on this forum.

[dukkha]

Thanks for your responses, I really appreciate it...I guess by the term 'healthy' am referring to two people who respect and care for one another..had intended that to mean in a gay subtext but hey I am happyh to discuss any aspects of male farangs and male thais..i think we learn from one another and that is why was happy to instigate it...for me it is now 9 months, a first in the last 27 years..we are able firstly to laugh with one another, to cry with one another and then get on with the joy of sharing intimacy which I feel I have now learnt to a better degree..Sam is compassionate towards me and I also hope that I am with him...it is a nice story but wont go on with it right now..keen read lotsa posts from all who are interested...na krup

PETA what a decent piece of writing it was for me to read, I am keen to hear more of your story as you sum it up at the end in essentially Buddhist undertones, and of course, because of that, I really like your ending

LIVE IN THE MOMENT.......

PETA how nice to reade your post...did especially agree with your Buddhist ending..

LIVE IN THE MOMENT.....do contribute more often as we learn from one another as we help each other live and help each other die..

[toptuan]

PeaceBlondie, I think I better start here, because where I'm startin' ain't where you think I'm endin' up. This is definitely from a gay perspective....

OK. Let's start, like a nice boy, nothing kinky---just HEALTHY rewarding relationships with str8 Thai guys.

First, just a little background...

Because I grew up in the closet for the first 50+ years of my life, and had an aversion to gays (who I erroneously thought were all femme-types), I learned how to develop GREAT friendships with str8 guys, who were quite comfortable in our relationships.

Admittedly, I was usually down-deep attracted to them sexually, which caused a bit of tension on my side, but I think I held it in check quite successfully, and never caused them uneasiness, to my knowledge. With these guys, I've gone camping, hunting, traveled to Europe, mountain-biking, snowboarding, etc., and have super memories of many fun and rewarding experiences. Several of those close friendships remain to this day. [Oh yeah, they all got married at the end of the story, too, but that's another sub-thread.]

Interestingly, this ability to develop some very close and rewarding relationships with str8 guys has followed me to Thailand. And, Thailand has turned out to be 100 times more rewarding. Here, I take trips with them, get adopted by their families, have a couple beers, go to Muay Thai events, and generally have a gay old time (in the old sense of the word).

Rewarding in what way?

1) Straight Thai guys seem much more emotionally responsive than str8 guys in the west. They won't hesitate to divulge their deepest secrets, give you a hug, talk with their arm around your shoulders, etc., to show emotional intimacy. I know it's non-sexual affection, and I take it as thus. (OK, sometimes I get just a little excited, but I hold it in check--remember I'm practiced.) Anthropological studies show that str8 Asian men bond much better emotionally to each other than in the west. After living all my life in a homophobic culture, this is like a fresh breath of air.

2) Straight Thai guys take you at face value. When a few of my closest str8 friends gradually begin to realize I'm gay (I'm 50-ish and not married, they gradually discover I have an LTR in a discreet relationship, etc.), it doesn't seem to phase them. I'm still "me" to them, and the friendships don't seem to suffer. Often they will start inviting my LTR on social outings as well, and we don't make them uncomfortable by overt displays of affection, either. But, up front, I had to earn their friendship and trust to get this far.

For farangs: "Flashing lights"!! "Kinky alert!!!"...... (oh yeah, like that's driven readers away in THIS forum...)

3) Sometimes str8 Thai guys are looking for physical intimacy. This is NOT kinky in Thai culture. A str8 Thai guys' sexual identity is not defined by his behavior, in Thai eyes. He can often go both ways in behavior and still consider himself str8. This is unthinkable in western culture. But "TIT", get used to it. In Thai eyes, this is still "healthy behavior."

This cultural quirk has some occassional nice perks. In my case, we're not talking going-all-the-way sex here. (Remember, I have an LTR.) Just some nice, uh, crossover physical communication (use your imagination). If they don't know I'm gay, I play the willing str8 friend who shows mutual enjoyment (it's a tough role, but somebody's gotta do it. ). Often, they are also attracted to the fact that I'm a farang, and I may be the first farang they have had emotional intimacy with. Sometimes this extrapolates to a mild physical intimacy. But as I said, a real nice perk, and always a nice surprise. Afterwards, nothing is ever said about it, and we go on with a great friendship--often deepened by our experience. Ahhh, I love Thailand.

4) Sometimes str8 Thai guys turn out to be gay. Yup, they were playing the same game I was. They're totally masculine in their demeanor, but "surprise!" Since I have an LTR, here's where it gets touchy. I need to be up front with them. Usually there's that show of disappointment, but also usually I've then made a good long-term gay Thai friend with whom I will enjoy a platonic relationship. Sometimes I can even play match-maker to help them along in their search (especially when they flatter you by asking "Please find me someone JUST LIKE YOU!" )

So, there's my take on "Healthy Relationships With Thai Men"--all Thai men, that is. I love it here (did I say that before?). Sometimes it makes me feel like I'm a Thai trapped in a farang body. But as long as a farang body (and Thai soul) also seems to attract Thai str8 guys, I'll keep it. Thank you.

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[jdinasia]

Well, this will be an interesting thread. Perhaps some posters will finally regale us with the details of their highly successful relationships, though so far such details seem sparse indeed- with the exception of PTEP, who has always seemed happy and at peace with himself and others on this forum, and ChrisP, whose boyfriend I have met. I also met PB's last LTR, and he was quite nice.

"Steven"

Whatcha want to know Steven? I met the guy online. Travelled 2 hours to meet him a few times for dates. He travelled to see me the same # of times for dates. Then we went to the South for a 10 day Songkran trip. Which we have done another time and are currently planning this year's trip. The first trip we split the expenses 50/50 other than one thing that I really wanted to do extra. Life has been that way since.

If you want details you'll just have to use your imagination. I don't see a forum as a blog spot. Rather as a medium for discussion. Sharing ideas about how to cope with situations that arise in Thailand and in particular in this section about "gay thatiland". Like having too much self-respect to do the wallet thing .... I have way too much respect for my friend to put his life online just to try and impress people. So generalities are pretty much all you will get from me.

I Guess a valid question is "What constitutes a LTR"? Back at home the cut-off would be about 2 years but I am guessing from some responses that here people measure it in the months?

Edited January 25, 2006 by jdinasia

[toptuan]

Gosh, what a hardened old cynic.

I think the OP and IJWT are looking for some posts that generally help balance all our other "problem" threads common to forums which discuss relationships. Not a "tell-all" (yeah, I like privacy too), but enough sharing to remind us that some relationships can be satisfying, fulfilling, and longer-term than the "months" you allege.

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[jdinasia]

Not a cynic ... just history with IJIT. I have friends coupled for 5+ years ... and friends that seem to manage less than a year with each successive guy. Kinda makes sense in each case. Different types of guys that meet their partners in different ways.

[Ijustwannateach]

You may not believe me, JD, but it's good to hear that things are working out for you two- it's good to hear of pretty much any successful relationship. Your recommendations about finding good men a few posts above are very similar to the ones I made in a recent thread on the topic, so we may have more shared opinions than you'd think.

As for the ethics either of how I have treated O. or my posting regarding him here, I think we will have to agree to disagree, since I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise for either of us to try to convince the other of a different viewpoint (and it's not really on topic here). I don't expect anyone to imitate my thread; nor do I think most posters here have reason to do so. However, it seems pretty rare that anyone seems to post any detail at all about their relationships here, for better or for worse, so it's refreshing to see any examples, including yours.

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

Well, I’m about to celebrate my 2nd anniversary with my current b/f. I have posted a bit about my relationship before.

We met in Lumpini Park.( I remember reading, in a previous topic, that it was not a good idea to meet guys in parks. I didn’t respond but I smiled when I read it).

He was studying for a Master’s degree at Thammasat and was on his way to an aerobics class in the park. I was walking through the park on my way home. I actually was regretting my walk as it was very hot. I sat on a bench and waited for the sun to go down before I continued home. He walked passed me and I was immediately attracted to him. So I sat and watched his performance, and it was a performance of aerobic dance. I watched in fascination at his beautiful moves. Of course he knew I was watching. I just couldn’t stop starring at him. When he finished, he walked over and we chatted. I was so happy that he could speak English. I invited him to dinner and after we went back to my apartment and we went to bed. He looked good, spoke great English, had a job and was good in bed. That was enough for me to pursue a relationship with him.

About 3 weeks into our relationship he told me he was moving out of Bangkok to work for another company. I was initially gutted. I felt I had been kicked in the stomach. We discussed it and I decided that I didn’t really have anything keeping me in BKK so, I decided to move with him and find a teaching job in the area. All of my friends thought I was mad. It’s too quick, they said but I knew he was the one.

In the first year I made him move 5 times. Our final move was to a shop and start a business together, which we have been doing for one year now. Last October we decided to buy a house and that should be finished this October. We have adopted a cat.

I feel I am very lucky. I am quite difficult to live with, I admit that. He is extremely accepting of this and it is his temperament that has kept the relationship incredibly strong. Yes he does have the occasional mood and then I am the one who usually has to smooth things over. We care for each other and we are building together. No one has control of the relationship.

It has taken 3 attempts to learn and accept who I am and for me this is very important when you enter a relationship. After all, if you cannot accept who you are, how on earth can you accept somebody else? Now I have entered a 4th relationship with someone who has made it easier for me to find myself even more. I truly love and appreciate him for allowing me to do this. He has helped me grow as a person and I have finally learnt how to give and receive love.

One can never say how long a journey will last together. I know I have many things to do in this lifetime and I cannot say if he will be by my side when I move further along my path. But if he is I know I will have a truly nice guy by my side.

There has never been a need to look in his wallet, check his mail or mobile for that matter. I haven’t had to resort to asking a forum if my candidate was dodgy! What he gets up to is his business. I’m no longer that insecure freak who is constantly looking for reasons to end a bad relationship instead of just doing it.

The problem is we know when a relationship should end but we often prolong the pain, this can even last a lifetime, because we are scared of what is NEXT. ( what is NEXT is often being alone but it’s also the unknown). The NEXT is more daunting than the pain of now so we continue, until we finally see the light. When you look back you will remember all the suspicions and gut feelings but each time you over ruled them and continued with the pain.

Anyhow, relationships are the perfect place to learn and grow and find out who you really are. Enjoy them while they are working but when they are not, don’t get frightened of what is next. Say your goodbyes, accept it wasn’t meant to be and move on.

Edited January 25, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[Ijustwannateach]

Incidentally, it would be nice to hear from the OP about his relationship- it's normal to post your own details in threads like this. LTR? Recent but good?

"Steven"

[dukkha]

different strokes for different folks toptuan....thanks for your efforts....this is the sort of discourse/chat/natter/ that I hoped would develop and thanks to people such as yourself we are talking openly about cross cultural relationships...It was 5 years of living and working here before I had enough trust and also, late in life, ready to love without some of the baggage I had carried around for decades...for me Thailan has been therapeutic at many levels from mental health to a comfortable acceptance of mortality...thanks for your support..

dukkha

[toptuan]

Similar inner journey, here too, Dukkha. I think it is mostly the "accept you for who you are" attitude of the Thai that has been the most heart/mind-healing balm after some of my own rough ups and downs. If they can accept me, why can't I do the same for myself?

I complain about a lot of things in Thailand (natural culture shock), but this* is what keeps me here.

*I think "this" is epitomized in "naam-jai;" or "love/accept you unconditionally with no strings attached". Most admirably demonstrated by my sweet Thai soul-mate.

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[dukkha]

C'est bon n'est ce pas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers to you TT....thanks for affirmation...cant get too much of it I reckon..

IJWT...please be patient and I am certainly willing to provide background..uneducated, poor Esaan 28 year old, ex sweat house employ in bangkok from age 13, a most serene demeanour which was the attraction...and it goes on...I think it has been trust that has resolved any real difficulties and WOW was that a WHAMMY for me after 5 years in The Kingdom really wanting to find a companion/partner...and when one is least on alert, the angel tapped me on the shoulder, literally in one of the better/worse known establishments in The Big Mango...will continue when I take a few breathes...

thank you for your participation IJWT..you too seem interested in thai culture..it fascinates and frustrates, but all in all this is such a flirtatious almost seductive culture, sits well with me but guess not all persons..here I like myself..

dukkha

[toptuan]

...here I like myself..

dukkha

I don't know if this is where you're coming from, dukkha, but when you've grown up in a homophobic culture (my experience) there sure are a lot of self-image handicaps to overcome. Some of us compensated by proving we could "make it" in a straight social circle (hence my earlier post).

But coming to Thailand, I could finally relax, be myself to the people who matter the most, and be loved--warts and all. But it's not all on the receiving end--it taught me to love others too. This is probably old hat to the long-timers here, but it's still a very tender and profound discovery for me, as I sense for you.

Thanks for the personal insights!

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

I think you chose the right age range, Dhukka- I'm resolved to find someone closer to 30 next time I look for a serious partner- that might make more of a difference by itself than all the other ifs, ands, and buts.

Or heck, maybe I'll try something wild for a change and look for someone older than I am- I'm sure that would be more stable in all kinds of ways. I just have to decide if stability is *really* what I want- and do so before I go looking, because it would be no more fair to date an older man and not be ready to settle down than it was for O. to be cheating on me.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

Or heck, maybe I'll try something wild for a change...

Hey Steven, I can send you some str8 Thai guys!

(Anyone think a "Str8's 4 Gays" dating service would catch on? New business? )

Edited January 25, 2006 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

Funny, TT, but I think that's the last direction I'd wanna go by now!

Some of them *are* so sexy, though.

And I get a lot of half-hugs and pats on the stomach from Thai guys that are supposedly straight- maybe it's the Santa syndrome!

But it couldn't last, could it? They always have to wind up married, unless they've really, really determined that they're gay.

So thanks, but no!

"Steven"

[toptuan]

They always have to wind up married...

Drat. Reality.

[dukkha]

Great to read the friendly sparring of TT with IJWT....I just found that at 60 it has been more comfortable for me to be with someone in their late 20's...I also guess one connects with someone who is a little whacky like the other although different cultures I think we still can read the other person as 'different'...My partner already knows the buttons to press to get a reaction and sometimes I think it was a previous life, nah dont want to be too new age but the comfort that we have is really special and of course greatly welcomed...he is away for two days and what am I doing, ranting on this forum BUT seriously give it ones best and cos thai is a language of the heart and english one of the head, maybe let go with the heart...i appreciate the support all have offered thus far and look forward to more..

dukkha