Amazing Chiang Mai

[uptheos]

“It will reduce travelling time from Bangkok to Chiang Mai from seven hours to three and a half hours . . ."

It has never taken me more than about 70 minutes. Plus check-in time.

And only a three-year construction period for 745km of line? I assume all the existing track will have to be torn up and the track bed relaid and new track supplied, in order to provide a strong and super-smooth ride for these 250km/h trains. Working six days a week, three years will be about 900 working days. So that's getting on for 1km of line surveyed, torn up, regraded, relaid and tested every day. Or about 100 metres per working hour. Sounds ambitious to me, to put it mildly. Maybe they plan to work on the line at several places at once.

Yes if its a mono rail........dont forget one track has 2 lines of steel, if they are maling a dual track thats 4 lines of 750km.

so even moooore ambitious. so thats 400m of track laid in one hour..........lets go for a 10yr building period

Notwithstanding the pure fantasy of this project's timeline, you're all neglecting one inescapable fact: it simply can not happen without a change of gauge.

The existing track gauge in Thailand is 1000mm between rails, and is part of the narrow gauge (NG) group, which accounts for less than 17% of the world's railways. The current maximum speeds on NG for passenger traffic is 160km/h on Queensland Rail tracks - and they use specially engineered 'tilt-trains' in order to maintain stability around curves at those speeds. Ever wonder why so many trains derail, or simply topple over, every year in Thailand?

Standard gauge (SG) tracks are 1435mm between rails, ± 32% wider than SG tracks, which permits a ± 32% higher centre of gravity or a higher speed around curves. (Minimum curve radii on SG lines are seldom set above 1000m, as this will not restrict speeds around curves for the conventional NG speed range of up to 130km/h. SG rolling stock can safely negotiate these curves at 15% (√1.32) higher speeds than similar NG rolling stock.) As has been discussed, world's best practices in SG operations employ speeds that are way ahead of current NG technologies, and mean that, in order to achieve the proposed maximum speeds of this line, a change of gauge simply has to occur.

SG has a number of substantial advantages over NG such as speed, stability, volumetric vehicle size, volume and quality of R&D, mass production of rolling stock, and sheer economy of scale. SG locomotives can fit stronger motors, producing better tractive effort, and as a result can be two to three times less expensive than NG locomotives based on a cost per kN tractive effort basis.

Converting the gauge of even a small rail network like Thailand's would be an engineering challenge of monumental proportions. The most practical and least disruptive methodology would be to convert everything to dual gauge - but even this would require the replacement of every sleeper, additional ballast, and the relocation of thousands of existing structures and items along the line that were built to the original NG permissible structure profiles.

Next fantasy project!

Now tell us something we don't know.

[svenivan]

Notwithstanding the pure fantasy of this project's timeline, you're all neglecting one inescapable fact: it simply can not happen without a change of gauge.

The existing track gauge in Thailand is 1000mm between rails, and is part of the narrow gauge (NG) group, which accounts for less than 17% of the world's railways. The current maximum speeds on NG for passenger traffic is 160km/h on Queensland Rail tracks - and they use specially engineered 'tilt-trains' in order to maintain stability around curves at those speeds. Ever wonder why so many trains derail, or simply topple over, every year in Thailand?

Standard gauge (SG) tracks are 1435mm between rails, ± 32% wider than SG tracks, which permits a ± 32% higher centre of gravity or a higher speed around curves. (Minimum curve radii on SG lines are seldom set above 1000m, as this will not restrict speeds around curves for the conventional NG speed range of up to 130km/h. SG rolling stock can safely negotiate these curves at 15% (√1.32) higher speeds than similar NG rolling stock.) As has been discussed, world's best practices in SG operations employ speeds that are way ahead of current NG technologies, and mean that, in order to achieve the proposed maximum speeds of this line, a change of gauge simply has to occur.

SG has a number of substantial advantages over NG such as speed, stability, volumetric vehicle size, volume and quality of R&D, mass production of rolling stock, and sheer economy of scale. SG locomotives can fit stronger motors, producing better tractive effort, and as a result can be two to three times less expensive than NG locomotives based on a cost per kN tractive effort basis.

Converting the gauge of even a small rail network like Thailand's would be an engineering challenge of monumental proportions. The most practical and least disruptive methodology would be to convert everything to dual gauge - but even this would require the replacement of every sleeper, additional ballast, and the relocation of thousands of existing structures and items along the line that were built to the original NG permissible structure profiles.

Next fantasy project!

Thank you James, that was interesting facts!

I understand that I probably never will be able to go with this supertrain in my lifetime.

Not here in Thailand !

[eyecatcher]

“It will reduce travelling time from Bangkok to Chiang Mai from seven hours to three and a half hours . . ."

It has never taken me more than about 70 minutes. Plus check-in time.

And only a three-year construction period for 745km of line? I assume all the existing track will have to be torn up and the track bed relaid and new track supplied, in order to provide a strong and super-smooth ride for these 250km/h trains. Working six days a week, three years will be about 900 working days. So that's getting on for 1km of line surveyed, torn up, regraded, relaid and tested every day. Or about 100 metres per working hour. Sounds ambitious to me, to put it mildly. Maybe they plan to work on the line at several places at once.

Yes if its a mono rail........dont forget one track has 2 lines of steel, if they are maling a dual track thats 4 lines of 750km.

so even moooore ambitious. so thats 400m of track laid in one hour..........lets go for a 10yr building period

Next fantasy project!

How about organising the relaying of the block pavers along Ratchamandoen road?

[jamesbrock]

Next fantasy project!

How about organising the relaying of the block pavers along Ratchamandoen road?

Another engineering challenge of monumental proportions.

[barefoot1988]

how would it be even possible to get it done within 3 years? might as well build a elevator to the moon

[hedonist44]

Question: Would YOU trust a Thai train driver to go 250K per hour? On Thai-made curves? Through Thai-made rail crossings?

Just a consideration...

And YOU apparently do trust a Thai pilot to go 800K per hour, between Thai made airports, staffed by Thai traffic controllers.

next.

Absolutely! One has no association with the other actually.

[cmbe]

Some informations. http://www.sepo.go.th/highspeedrail/dowload/HSR%20Inform.pdf

[svenivan]

Thanks cmbe!

So the plan is that Chiang Mai will have High Speed Train 2575. That is 20 years from now,

not 3-4 years.

Was that another "White lie"?

[Ricardo]

Question: Would YOU trust a Thai train driver to go 250K per hour? On Thai-made curves? Through Thai-made rail crossings?

Just a consideration...

And YOU apparently do trust a Thai pilot to go 800K per hour, between Thai made airports, staffed by Thai traffic controllers.

next.

Yes, but not in a Thai-designed/built plane, I suspect.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Ricardo

[jackr]

Question: Would YOU trust a Thai train driver to go 250K per hour? On Thai-made curves? Through Thai-made rail crossings?

And YOU apparently do trust a Thai pilot to go 800K per hour, between Thai made airports, staffed by Thai traffic controllers.

Not quite the same, old bean. Planes are in the air (away from the madness) and follow a standard. Too many variables with the rail. I'd be apprehensive.

What they should be doing is sorting the old system first--two tracks on new beds, and signals, stations, machinery upgrades--and then perhaps look to high speed in 10-20 years when everyone has grown up a bit. Instead they'll go for the face and faithfully retain the mutton-dressed-as-lamb persona that Muang Thai has down pat.

Btw, PM Yingluck, shortest time to CM by rail is currently 12 hours, bus about 9-10 hours, driving with foot down about 7 hours.

[jamesbrock]

Some informations. http://www.sepo.go.t.../HSR Inform.pdf

I see one of the State Enterprise Policy Officer's pre-schooler's has been learning PowerPoint.

Thanks cmbe!

So the plan is that Chiang Mai will have High Speed Train 2575. That is 20 years from now,

not 3-4 years.

Was that another "White lie"?

No, that's the program completion date. At the bottom of page 2 they say, "In year 2017, the demand analysis suggested that the ridership of high speed train in all routes would be as high as 153,000 trips per day" and reiterate this date with the tables for the two initial lines, on pages 6 & 8.