Condo Fire Regulations

[taichiplanet]

can someone point me to the fire regulations/codes for Condos in Thailand. A decent english translation would be appreciated but if not then Thai is fine.

Basically the situation of the condo (in Na Jomtien) is it has had 20 years of abuse (read repairs when something goes wrong instead of maintenance) under one 'owner'. The co-owners finally got a General Meeting going last Saturday and hopefully once the minutes of the meeting and the committee is registered at the land office, the control of running the building will be back in the hands of the co-owners. It is going to be a long, long haul to get the building right but my main concern beside recovery of fees is safety. Elevators first up (had one slowly free fall on me last month!) and get some basic fire safety in but work towards the goal of compliance for fire safety. We will apoint a management company to help run the place, but i would like to know the regulations to know what to aim for.

[Delight]

To my knowledge there is no specific regulations dealing with the structural safety of a condominium.. There will probably be some regulations in Thailand that covers the structural safety of buildings in general. The issue is not the law-the issue is enforcement -or more precisely lack there of.

The Condo Act simply states:

'' In the case of a pressing necessity, the Manager shall have the power to initiate activities for the safety of the building in such manner that a responsible person may maintain and manage his own property;'

Your problems are symptomatic of a major failure of management -this .I suspect ,is rooted in co -owner apathy..

With respect to the elevators -then you will need the services of a specialist supplier- ask the manager to get them in to carry out a survey resulting in a report.

If there is no immediate money to fix the issues -then the JPM has the authority to close them down -until they are fixed.

This will probably focus co -owner attention.

Note: Assuming that your recent meeting was legal -i.e. at least 25% of co -owner vote in attendance (bodies and proxies) then you do not have to await the minutes. The committee was effective as soon as the vote was declared..

I think that you have much to do

Edited September 11, 2012 by Delight

[taichiplanet]

Thanks for the reply. I am also concerned with fire safety and what fire regulations there are (if any).

You are spot-on about the apathy, though some of that was due to actual and perceived connections that the owner had. It was really only the fact that recently more farang had bought into the place and bought the bigger condos that we were eventually able to get 25.5%. Gotta say that the Dept of Land head office in Bkk was very supportive and serious about any infractions of the regulations by the Juristic Officer and management. If anyone has problems with the way their condo is being run then report it to DoL HQ (letter in thai, signatures of as many co-owners as possible and the reply recipient must be a thai co-owner!!).

Unfortunately the place is more of a long-weekend holiday place for Bkk Thais, so if the elevators are out of action most won't notice! Actually, it is what i like about the place as mostly it is deserted and very quiet. Not to worry, it will be a priority for the committee along with recovery of fees! Too much to do but hopefully with a good management company and an effective committee we will make a good start.

Putting my own topic slightly off topic. To change the maintanence fee rate requires 50% of the co-owners; does this also apply if we want to add a sinking fund? And what is needed to raise a special levy; just a vote at a GM?

[Delight]

To change the maintanence fee rate requires 50% of the co-owners; does this also apply if we want to add a sinking fund? And what is needed to raise a special levy; just a vote at a GM?

A change in the official maintenance fee rate requires a change in the regulations -and that requires the 50% of the total condo vote to agree.

The way around this organize a general meeting(the committee can do this ) and assuming that the meeting is legal then a proposal for both 'Special assessment ' and 'sinking fund ' can be tabled. All that is required is a simple majority vote. It is prudent to put timescales on both of these increases-typically 3 years seems to work.

Ref Fire Regs . -Restoring these resources to the specification that was in place when the building was new should suffice. This will involve fire hoses-extinguishers - emergency lighting etc.

All of which must function. . The JPM is responsible for this. You have not stated if a new person now occupies that role.

In the condo where I live -the management company supplies both the JPM and the building manager-It works. Only the building manager is full time.

Note : The land Office BKK has it's own rules. i.e only Thai persons can be the recipients of their correspondence.

[trogers]

Fire regulations are constantly reviewed and upgraded. They are under the jurisdiction of the local office, in Bangkok it is the BMA. Not sure which office for Pattaya, Chonburi.

But most recent rquirements are smoke/heat detectors in the condo units linked to fire alarm panels, and sprinklers for building higher than 23m.

[Delight]

Fire regulations are constantly reviewed and upgraded. They are under the jurisdiction of the local office, in Bangkok it is the BMA. Not sure which office for Pattaya, Chonburi.

But most recent rquirements are smoke/heat detectors in the condo units linked to fire alarm panels, and sprinklers for building higher than 23m.

Do these new regulations specify that they have to apply retrospectively.?

[taichiplanet]

thanks for the replies.Yes, replaced the JPM (the previous one was brother to 'the owner' and was found by the DoL to be grossly negligent in his duties, and fined). One of the farang committee members is temporary JPM until we get a management company and have them supply one.

In the reports of the Bkk hotel fires there is a reference to "to see if the hotel had violated the 1992 Building Control Act. The Act requires that a fire sprinkler system be installed in buildings with more than seven floors."

http://www.thaivisa....er-system-fire/

http://www.nationmul...s-30177440.html

In regard to the retrospective question, in the thaivisa link above "Bangkok City Council chairman Suttichai Weerakulsunthorn said that though the Building Control Act was applicable to buildings constructed from 1992 onwards, he would ask the owners of all other big buildings to comply with safety standards as prescribed by the Act." As trogers mentioned different provinces may have different regulations.

here is the Building Control Act in thai

http://app-thca.kris...¤04-20-2522-001

(updated 1992)

http://app-thca.kris...¤04-20-2535-002

I couldn't make much sense of it running it through a translator program. i really need a good version in english, hopefully the management company can help out.

Just been through a 5 year upgrade on the building in Sydney i have an apartment in, so have a fair idea on what is needed (though a long way from being an expert). At the moment in the building here we have no hoses, no smoke/fire detectors, no emergency lights, no signage, no hydrants and the few extinguishers that aren't missing haven't been checked for 6 years. So just installing a couple of extinguishers on each floor will be a vast improvement but still i would want something more satisfactory.

The basics as i see it for a good fire protection system would be:

- a smoke detector system in each room back to a control board

- a fire escape with self closing fire rated doors acting as a safe zone

- a hydrant riser on a separate water system in the fire stairs so fire brigade can have water pumping when emerging from the fire stairs

- small fire reels or extinguishers for residents to use for a small fire

- maybe solid core doors with self closers on apartment entrance doors so that a fire is retained in an apartment long enough to allow other residents to get past.

- and of course the most important thing.... yearly checks/inspections!

Of course what i think is irrelevant and it would be nice to see some actual laws/regulations.

Edited September 12, 2012 by taichiplanet

[Delight]

One of the farang committee members is temporary JPM until we get a management company and have them supply one.

The basics as i see it for a good fire protection system would be:

- a smoke detector system in each room back to a control board

- a fire escape with self closing fire rated doors acting as a safe zone

- a hydrant riser on a separate water system in the fire stairs so fire brigade can have water pumping when emerging from the fire stairs

- small fire reels or extinguishers for residents to use for a small fire

- maybe solid core doors with self closers on apartment entrance doors so that a fire is retained in an apartment long enough to allow other residents to get past.

- and of course the most important thing.... yearly checks/inspections!

Of course what i think is irrelevant and it would be nice to see some actual laws/regulations.

If I was looking for advice in respect of fire regulations -I would probably seek it from the local fire dept. or an insurance company.

The real answer for you is to get a quality professional management company in place. They will provide the JPM and he/she will advise accordingly.. That advice will carry the authority to convince your fellow co -owners. Clearly a lot of money has to be spent.

Based on what you say -your condo has been illegally run since its inception. The owner and the brother have milked it . I suspect that your experience is not an isolated. Co -owners being seduced by low maintenance payments.

[taichiplanet]

Actually they have been ripping us off with maintenance too! Charging 20 baht/sqm/month while the regulations for the actual condo building states 12. I bought into this with my eyes wide open but have been surprised at what has gone on and the general apathy. And they added another 8 sqm above what my chanoot says. I've gotta laugh, as otherwise i'd cry!

But yeah, seems to happen in many places which i think is why DoL is getting serious about enforcing the regs. We are lining up a couple of management companies for the weekend to talk with us before deciding on one. I will try to get a copy of the fire regs as defined in the Building Control Act.

A good idea about trying to get the local fire station involved.I have already organised to get some insurance people out to the building, as doubt if the place is covered for anything. Though i guess premiums are gonna be astronomical until we get the place sorted a bit better. But another good suggestion to ask them about fire regs.

For sure, getting a professional company to guide us in the right direction is essential. But it helps if at least the committee members have an idea of what to do. At the GM it surprised me the attitude most people had was 'let the committee sort it out'. When really it should be (and legally is) the co-owners instructing the committee what to do and the committee just follows those instructions. No wonder so many places are badly run and get ripped off! i asked what is the limit of spending for the committee, and was told "unlimited"!!! A disaster waiting to happen in the wrong hands. Or in this case, more of a disaster waiting to happen.

Edited September 12, 2012 by taichiplanet

[smutcakes]

Actually they have been ripping us off with maintenance too! Charging 20 baht/sqm/month while the regulations for the actual condo building states 12. I bought into this with my eyes wide open but have been surprised at what has gone on and the general apathy. And they added another 8 sqm above what my chanoot says. I've gotta laugh, as otherwise i'd cry!

But yeah, seems to happen in many places which i think is why DoL is getting serious about enforcing the regs. We are lining up a couple of management companies for the weekend to talk with us before deciding on one. I will try to get a copy of the fire regs as defined in the Building Control Act.

A good idea about trying to get the local fire station involved.I have already organised to get some insurance people out to the building, as doubt if the place is covered for anything. Though i guess premiums are gonna be astronomical until we get the place sorted a bit better. But another good suggestion to ask them about fire regs.

For sure, getting a professional company to guide us in the right direction is essential. But it helps if at least the committee members have an idea of what to do. At the GM it surprised me the attitude most people had was 'let the committee sort it out'. When really it should be (and legally is) the co-owners instructing the committee what to do and the committee just follows those instructions. No wonder so many places are badly run and get ripped off! i asked what is the limit of spending for the committee, and was told "unlimited"!!! A disaster waiting to happen in the wrong hands. Or in this case, more of a disaster waiting to happen.

On a couple of your issues, sorry if they are not in the direct quote above.

Direct fire safety regs are not included in the Condo Act, but by the JPM's position they are responsible for safety.

However now they are included in the buidling code which means any building over a certain height are required to install certain fire protection. In fact i have seen a number of high end devs which were built years ago, undertake multi million baht installation works, and in my personal opinion, the better for it. Not just in terms of safety, but also in terms of maintaing the cap value of the unit, should any Co-owner be interested in that. And the various depts have actually been following it up this time.

On your second point about management charges, there are very few condominiums operating in Thailand with fees that low. Unless you have huge economies of scale i see its impossible to run a condo professionally on less than 20 baht sq m in the main tourist resorts and 30 bah sq m in hubs, and thats with a huge building. People forget the simple cost of things like security, cleaning etc especially with the new recent wage increases. A 10 man/lady team can cost the thick end of 130K (min with local supplier) a month after associated costs, and thats salary alone. Spread that across the rest of your contractors and it is pretty pricey. You can bargain as much as you like, but the plain facts are that this is the min wage now. Yes you can get people cheaper, but do you want to maintain your property or not? This is all forgetting any professional fee a management company may charge.

Not trying to be rude, just realistic. Prices are on the rise, like it or not.

[jbaldwin]

Depending on the age, number of floors and total area of the condo - you might have a legal requirement to have an annual safety inspection.

The Condo that I am a Committee member of has had to do this for the last two years. An approved independent inspection company carry out the inspection and their report plus your proposals on any point raised must be submitted to Pattaya City Hall by 31 December each year. This inspection will include a check of the fire alarm system. Our condo uses a firm of Thepasit Road. I can find the name and contact details if that would be helpful. Even if you are not required to have a insepction carried out, one of the companies that carried out this work would be a good starting point.

I hope the falang who has become the JPM know that this is considered "work" and a work perimt is required.

[JeffreyMcCollum]

"The basics as i see it for a good fire protection system would be:

- a smoke detector system in each room back to a control board

- a fire escape with self closing fire rated doors acting as a safe zone

- a hydrant riser on a separate water system in the fire stairs so fire brigade can have water pumping when emerging from the fire stairs

- small fire reels or extinguishers for residents to use for a small fire

- maybe solid core doors with self closers on apartment entrance doors so that a fire is retained in an apartment long enough to allow other residents to get past.

- and of course the most important thing.... yearly checks/inspections!"

And who is going to pay for all of this in a cement building that won't burn ?

Then you go on to complain abut paying 20 baht and it should be 12 Bt.

I think if you want a nice top notch comdo, there are plenty go out and buy one, But you bought into a lower class condo unit and want the world for nothing, won't happen. And how will youmake the poor Thai's pay all these fees who don;t have the money to do so ?

And from my 10 condos in Pattaya, any time a independant management company went it, it turned into their cash cow

I do wish you luck, but sounds like you will be turning it into a Thai/Expat war there

[rayongchelsea]

We have just discovered after taking over the committee and the jpm, that our condo failed the fire inspection because the layout of the original plans were not followed and therefore access of the fire engine to the condo is restricted.

My understanding that this is quite a common issue,the developer changes the design to compromise the integrity of the condo in terms of fire safety, for a more esthetic look.

We have yet to get hold of the report at the tessabaan yet, but our understanding that the fire engine needs access to ensure the ability to access the higher floors by ladder. We have excellent fire escapes and other equipment.

The condo should not have been issued with an or.6 certificate and therefore should not have been allowed to transfer units. This will be pursued in the criminal court.

Please ensure that when you take over a committee you are conversant with the original plans and all was as original outlined and safety not compromised.

[taichiplanet]

"The basics as i see it for a good fire protection system would be:

- a smoke detector system in each room back to a control board

- a fire escape with self closing fire rated doors acting as a safe zone

- a hydrant riser on a separate water system in the fire stairs so fire brigade can have water pumping when emerging from the fire stairs

- small fire reels or extinguishers for residents to use for a small fire

- maybe solid core doors with self closers on apartment entrance doors so that a fire is retained in an apartment long enough to allow other residents to get past.

- and of course the most important thing.... yearly checks/inspections!"

And who is going to pay for all of this in a cement building that won't burn ?

Then you go on to complain abut paying 20 baht and it should be 12 Bt.

I think if you want a nice top notch comdo, there are plenty go out and buy one, But you bought into a lower class condo unit and want the world for nothing, won't happen. And how will youmake the poor Thai's pay all these fees who don;t have the money to do so ?

And from my 10 condos in Pattaya, any time a independant management company went it, it turned into their cash cow

I do wish you luck, but sounds like you will be turning it into a Thai/Expat war there

I assume you are being sarcastic about cement buildings not burning.

I didn't complain about paying 20 baht, i am happy to pay 20 baht. What i was highlighting was another instance where the original developer was acting illegally. in fact we realise we may have to raise additional funds, as 12 baht is no where near enough to run the building.

No poor people living in our building. In fact they are so rich that most of the rooms are empty most of the year and only used occasionally on long weekends. Ever heard of the Condominium Act 2008? That is how we will make people pay. Sorry, i am not going to fall to you level by dividing people into farang or thai. People is people and if they don't pay then i don't care what nationality they are. BTW, there is a good mix of people involved in sorting this out, and a good mix on the committee as well. Good god, we are so modern that we even have females involved!!

This is against the original developer and her family that has continually acted illegally. Again, it has nothing to do with whether they are thai or not.

Yes, there are good managing agents and bad ones. i've even been ripped off in Australia in condos i owned there; only goes to prove my point that people is people. Since you have had so much experience with managing agents, could you please advise which you were unsatisfied with and which (if any) you were happy with?

Thanks for your wishes of good luck; it is the only thing i agree with about your comments.

Edited September 16, 2012 by taichiplanet

[taichiplanet]

We have just discovered after taking over the committee and the jpm, that our condo failed the fire inspection because the layout of the original plans were not followed and therefore access of the fire engine to the condo is restricted.

My understanding that this is quite a common issue,the developer changes the design to compromise the integrity of the condo in terms of fire safety, for a more esthetic look.

We have yet to get hold of the report at the tessabaan yet, but our understanding that the fire engine needs access to ensure the ability to access the higher floors by ladder. We have excellent fire escapes and other equipment.

The condo should not have been issued with an or.6 certificate and therefore should not have been allowed to transfer units. This will be pursued in the criminal court.

Please ensure that when you take over a committee you are conversant with the original plans and all was as original outlined and safety not compromised.

Thanks for the info. Where is your condo located?

We will be lucky if we have any documents when/if we get control. I know the building maintenance guy has all the schematic diagrams of the building but he is on the developer's side. i hope that the Land Office will have some plans. Luckily the local and HQ Land Offices seem to be happy to work with us in sorting all this out. The managing agent with produce a 3 year maintenance/repair plan, and we will try and avoid being a cash cow for them by organising or own repairs rather than using their technicians.