Commission Says 'men In Black' May Have Got Cooperation From Red Shirts

[rubl]

As we want to be sure of facts, and assuming we do not waste space on nettiquette discussions, what is there to comment on? MiB exist? Clearly, clearly whatever, why do you refuse to believe?

Inconsistency thy name starts with a p. IMHO of course.

Now let's try again the OP "Commission says MiB may have got cooperation from red shirts", almost like some saying 'government involvement', or 'army with matches in CentralWorld'.

So Rubl also the MiB may not have got cooperation.........as we want to be sure of facts......and not maybe this or possibly that....correct

Now you're talking, dear geo.

mind you the topic title came from theNation, the TRCT wrote

"On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking"."

Of course that isn't definitive proof yet, there is still the possibility that all government conspiracy theorists are correct. Furthermore it's clear and obvious that grenade lobbing is not a crime, but part of local folklore. Similar to burning a guy at the stake on the 5th of November each year

[nurofiend]

i knew what you were suggesting.

so you're saying that the protesters knew that they (whoever they were) had planned to shoot at the army that night?

you're saying it wasn't a covert operation and all the protestors knew the deal?

You knew what I was suggesting, but you decided to do some trolling anyway.

I didn't say anything about the protesters. I said that the shooters were amongst them.

There's that reading problem again.

It's possible they had shields because they were from the army and had been sent in to fire from the protesters position and give an excuse for the army to attack. It's possible the protesters didn't realise this and thought they were on their side.

This is all possible but since the reds haven't claimed the MIB were on their side it's more likely but not proved that they weren't army and were either part of the protest or using it as a cover to cause trouble and were acting for someone else entirely.

Of course as far as I know neurofiend is anti Abhisit and Democrat so the latter is going to be less acceptable.

<snip

fyi i'm not anti abhisit, there are most certainly things i don't like about him yes but there are things that i sympathize with him about too, I feel if he weren't stuck between a rock (the feudal elite) and a hard place (the military) he could very well be a good politician.

i feel sorry for him more than anything for that aspect.

that's not saying i don't think he has been very deceptive in certain instances and completely contradicted himself in others, and straight out knowingly lied in others.

so yeah, i'm not a fan by any stretch but not a complete hater either.

i'm not anti-dem either,i wish they were a more respectable opposition, i truly do, but they are not, they just consistently make themselves look foolish with their silly games and cheap shots.

maybe when they get voted in by a general election winning by a decent relative majority i will gain some more respect for them.

the only 100% 'anti's' we have on this forum that i know of, come from one side of the coin.

i don't see the world in black and white so that one must choose to be completely anti one side and completely pro the other.

also fyi, i wasn't suggesting they were the army.

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

Edited September 15, 2012 by nurofiend

[473geo]

Now you're talking, dear geo.

mind you the topic title came from theNation, the TRCT wrote

"On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking"."

Of course that isn't definitive proof yet, there is still the possibility that all government conspiracy theorists are correct. Furthermore it's clear and obvious that grenade lobbing is not a crime, but part of local folklore. Similar to burning a guy at the stake on the 5th of November each year

But this very passage would suggest that the run of the mill peaceful red shirts had no knowledge, rather deliberately kept in the dark surrounding the presence and actions of the black shirts, something that has been venemously denied by many of the anti red posters.

Edited September 15, 2012 by 473geo

[rubl]

Now you're talking, dear geo.

mind you the topic title came from theNation, the TRCT wrote

"On pages 163 and 164, the report says that somebody saw a group of men in black step out of a white van at 7pm on April 10 near the Democracy Monument only to be "surrounded" and escorted by red-shirt guards toward the direction of the deadly confrontation. The guards "barred people from taking photos and some protesters shouted 'a helping hand is here', but were later prevented from speaking"."

Of course that isn't definitive proof yet, there is still the possibility that all government conspiracy theorists are correct. Furthermore it's clear and obvious that grenade lobbing is not a crime, but part of local folklore. Similar to burning a guy at the stake on the 5th of November each year

But this very passage would suggest that the run of the mill peaceful red shirts had no knowledge, rather deliberately kept in the dark surrounding the presence and actions of the black shirts, something that has been venemously denied by many of the anti red posters.

The run of the mill red-shirt was death, blind and dumb. Death from 24x7 shoutcasts, blind for not seeing anything, dumb for not telling. Peaceful protesters with heavily armed red-shirt militants mingling. Discouraged from asking questions, cannon fodder. Makes you wonder about those UDD leaders who are not really run of the mill red-shirts.

BTW this may surprise you but I'm only responsible for what I write, not for what others write, not even for what you write. Good night

[AleG]

The Red Shirt/Black Shirt symbiosis is so patently obvious that Occam's Bowling Ball could cut through it.

Unless one's agenda precludes them to see it of course.

[rixalex]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

[jayboy]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

[Nickymaster]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

Mystery?!

Propaganda seems to be working. Or should I say: propaganda at work.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/584525-chalerm-queries-men-in-black-claim/page__st__25

Post #44 contains some nice images.

[rixalex]

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

I agree there is a mystery element to why investigators got nowhere, but as i said to you on this matter a few days, we have become accustomed, from Western experiences, to investigators, backed up by all kinds of technologies, not least CCTV cameras on every corner, to perpetrators being identified quite easily. Resources, skills and methods here, certainly concerning crimes which are weeks, months, years old, are not what they are in the West. Plus there is the small matter of evidence being buried for the right return of favour. Not saying that is what happened, but saying it is always a possibility.

You are absolutely right in all you say though. Finding a concrete connection, like a paper-trail, between Thaksin or other red leaders and the MIB would have been a game-changer. Not much chance of that sort of evidence surfacing at the moment i would say though.

Edited September 16, 2012 by rixalex

[Skywalker69]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

Could it be because they might have been mercenaries from another Country?

[Thaddeus]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

Could it be because they might have been mercenaries from another Country?

The A-Team?

[rixalex]

to me, the MIB remain a mystery, and i hope and pray that we will find out who they really were no matter who's thai visa agenda it furthers.

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

Could it be because they might have been mercenaries from another Country?

Would certainly have made disappearing off the radar much easier.

[jayboy]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

[rixalex]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

[473geo]

Well it was proffered by one forum member that the MIB were Russian, and if I recall correctly, only communicated in sign language

Perhaps this clears up why there are no known names........nobody would hear them, and probably unable to pronounce them if they did!

I don't think they were Russian however, but all input deserves be taken into account

[tlansford]

"The TRCT explained that after the night of April 10, 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) had started using the term "terrorist" and had permitted security officials to use live bullets for self-defence."

As I recall, it has been shown that Suthep authorized live rounds 3 days prior to Apr 10th whereas the above makes it sound like it was a cause/effect relationship.

[AleG]

It seems pretty obvious that we will never have names, addresses and phone numbers of these people, so i'm sure that will be sufficient for people to continue feigning confusion forever about what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems strange as the names, addresses and phone numbers of many people from all sides of the protest, are also not known, but we are happy enough to conclude by looking at their actions what they were up to and whose side they were on. Seems in the future, if you want your role to become a matter of feigned confusion, just pop on a different coloured shirt from your other friends in your mob, and suddenly your actions will become a matter of great mystery.

I'm not sure anybody (outside a relatively small group) doubts which side they were on.However I do regard it as incredible that their "names, addresses and telephone numbers" - to use your expression - are not known (none of them, noit one!) and that the Abhisit government neither detained any or was able to determine any relevant background information.This is in spite of the fact the Abhisit government had all the security agencies of the state available for follow up, and that it had everthing to gain if a link between Thaksin could be established.In fact proving a link could have been (actually still could be) a decisive game changer.The main redshirt contingent was very well investigated - but on the MIB nothing, zilch, nada.

Honestly and with due respect your post is beside the point.There is a genuine mystery here.

I agree there is a mystery element to why investigators got nowhere, but as i said to you on this matter a few days, we have become accustomed, from Western experiences, to investigators, backed up by all kinds of technologies, not least CCTV cameras on every corner, to perpetrators being identified quite easily. Resources, skills and methods here, certainly concerning crimes which are weeks, months, years old, are not what they are in the West. Plus there is the small matter of evidence being buried for the right return of favour. Not saying that is what happened, but saying it is always a possibility.

You are absolutely right in all you say though. Finding a concrete connection, like a paper-trail, between Thaksin or other red leaders and the MIB would have been a game-changer. Not much chance of that sort of evidence surfacing at the moment i would say though.

It is a pity the Red Shirts disabled the CCTV cameras within their barricades. Quite odd for a bunch of peaceful, well behaved protesters; must be shininess I suppose.

As for identifying the armed guerrillas within the camp, I'm sure the great number of Red Shirts that saw them ambling about will come forward with their witness testimonies to help identify them any day now...

No? Why not? Peaceful, Not-Terrorist, Protesters wouldn't even dream of protecting the identity of honest to goodness terrorists, would they?

[Moruya]

"The TRCT explained that after the night of April 10, 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) had started using the term "terrorist" and had permitted security officials to use live bullets for self-defence."

As I recall, it has been shown that Suthep authorized live rounds 3 days prior to Apr 10th whereas the above makes it sound like it was a cause/effect relationship.

Terrorism - the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

[Moruya]

Amazing that no where in that 80-post thread with thousands of views did anyone fail to recognize the sarcasm for what it was.

Only 10 months later after it was written, did you alone fail to.

Perhaps that should tell you something.

.

Yep, I'm British.

Shit, so am I.( don't tell me Mum )

What a revelation I'm also "unaware of the concept of sarcasm"

I often wondered where this flaw eminated......I'm British too

Buchholz is a genius.... ..

Saesonegs without a doubt

[Thaddeus]

"The TRCT explained that after the night of April 10, 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) had started using the term "terrorist" and had permitted security officials to use live bullets for self-defence."

As I recall, it has been shown that Suthep authorized live rounds 3 days prior to Apr 10th whereas the above makes it sound like it was a cause/effect relationship.

Terrorism - the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Please...... don't confuse him with a rational explanation, he'll just get a headache and get grumpy.

[nurofiend]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

well if there is no cloud of doubt, then there is no mystery.

so 'all knowing' rixalex, who precisely were they?

[Moruya]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

well if there is no cloud of doubt, then there is no mystery.

so 'all knowing' rixalex, who precisely were they?

Ask the red shirts. Ask Thaksin.

Surely in the spirit of reconciliation those responsible for murder should be punished.

[Siripon]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

well if there is no cloud of doubt, then there is no mystery.

so 'all knowing' rixalex, who precisely were they?

A columnist in The Daily News said at the time that the black shirts were retired or renegrade police and army working with one of the financial backers of the red shirts. The columnist also claimed that they were able to fly by helicopter back to their base just inside Cambodia after operations.

[OzMick]

"The TRCT explained that after the night of April 10, 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) had started using the term "terrorist" and had permitted security officials to use live bullets for self-defence."

As I recall, it has been shown that Suthep authorized live rounds 3 days prior to Apr 10th whereas the above makes it sound like it was a cause/effect relationship.

The first act of terrorism was the firing of an RPG at the temple of the Emerald Buddha - an act which the mercenary k.Bandit has confessed was intended to cause fear and apprehension in the population. He also described the money trail leading back to a red shirt leader.

April 21 RPG fired at oil tank farm. Later 3 RPGs fired at Dusit Thani Hotel. Many M-79 grenades fired around city. Is firing explosive ordnance your idea of peaceful protest or terrorism? And if you claim self-defence, how many RTA members were in the Dusit, the tank farm or the temple?

Is not retaliatory terrorism still terrorism?

Edited September 17, 2012 by OzMick

[chotthee]

Actually, the masked MIB could be Thaksin himself. Quite possible.

[yoshiwara]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

While at the same time managing to praise Seh Daeng as a patriotic hero.

[Nickymaster]

Actually, the masked MIB could be Thaksin himself. Quite possible.

Impossible, he always lets others do the dirty work for him. He might have been flying with his jet above Burma hoping to see some smoke coming from his beloved Bangkok..

[nurofiend]

But for some even raising legitimate questions about this mystery is " propaganda ".Talk about the sleep of reason!

Perhaps because along with the legitimate questions gets thrown in this contrived and non-existent cloud of doubt about what group they were a part of and who they were fighting for. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic aimed at shifting blame.

well if there is no cloud of doubt, then there is no mystery.

so 'all knowing' rixalex, who precisely were they?

A columnist in The Daily News said at the time that the black shirts were retired or renegrade police and army working with one of the financial backers of the red shirts. The columnist also claimed that they were able to fly by helicopter back to their base just inside Cambodia after operations.

my point was that no one knows who exactly they were, so they remain a mystery.

rixalex with his mind set automatically to knee jerk bias took this as me saying it could have been the government and army themselves just as likely as being someone with some connection to thaksin and the red shirts, which is not what i suggested, hinted or think myself.

it's just the calibre of some posters one must deal with on here i suppose.

Edited September 17, 2012 by nurofiend

[Buchholz]

TRCT FINAL REPORT

Both sides blamed for violence

TRCT formally releases report

September 17, 2012 6:50 pm

The Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (TRCT) formally released its report Monday which blamed both sides for what happened over the more than ninety death and two thousand injuries in April and May 2010 red shirt protests

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/TRCT-formally-releases-report-30190578.html

[nurofiend]

TRCT FINAL REPORT

Both sides blamed for violence

TRCT formally releases report

September 17, 2012 6:50 pm

The Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (TRCT) formally released its report Monday which blamed both sides for what happened over the more than ninety death and two thousand injuries in April and May 2010 red shirt protests

http://www.nationmul...t-30190578.html

so now people should admit this, seems to me like it was all down to the red shirts according to the way most posters have gone on here.

but those deemed as 'red supporters' always admitted a share of blame on the red shirts.

Edited September 17, 2012 by nurofiend