Army Behind Thai Protest Death: Inquest

[tlansford]

- deleted for quote limits -

Yeah, but the brainwashing sessions only started after May 10, and they had to flush out many new conscripts, who refused to shoot their own family.

Right ... the brainwashing sessions went for several weeks but started after May 10. What a complete load of BS.

... as usual.

Note the edit in original post

Still BS.

Why does B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z "like" a post which has only two words and one is "BS"?

[tlansford]

you're right.

And honestly, the army was completely and fully charged with security in the SOE.

See? It's so easy to answer questions honestly.

...

You call that an honest answer to the question of who is in charge of keeping Law and Order in Thailand?

Since I don't think you actually have a neurological disorder that inhibits you to give an honest, straight answer I'll have to go on with the alternative.

What is your point besides trying to call me a liar without using the word?

The military was in charge in the SOE - period.

Their shooting people had nothing to do with the police.

How much more honest does it get?

[whybother]

Why does B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z "like" a post which has only two words and one is "BS"?

Because he agrees that the post that it was referring to is BS.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[tlansford]

Or how about if you had been subjected to several weeks of daily brainwashing from your superiors about the existence of 500 heavily armed terrorists mingling and collaborating with the protesters and being shown 'proof' of the conspiracy to topple the monarchy directly linked to the protest leaders and Thaksin Shinawatra. Would "the phrase "trigger happy" just about sum up how (you were) feeling?"

I guess you mixed the words brainwashing with brain bashing. These soldiers saw their colleagues being molested and slaughtered by red terrorists and were subject to a nice daily dose of grenades! If Thaksin's phone ins and calls for revolution, the involvement of all his relatives including darling Yingluck and above all the timing of the events taken in consideration, it's maybe not so strange that some of us highly suspect that Thakin was the main orchestrator! But maybe you think the earth is flat. .

"These soldiers saw their colleagues being molested and slaughtered by red terrorists"

Having read the killing zone account of May 15th, the cold facts that came from this original OP of May 15th, and looking at the number of civilian/protester/military casualties, it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

[tlansford]

Why does B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z "like" a post which has only two words and one is "BS"?

Because he agrees that the post that it was referring to is BS.

Sent from my HTC phone.

but that is swearing and B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z typically shows contempt for swearing as well as for being a violation of forum rules and etiquette.

[kimamey]

According to his wife - He never attended the rally and worked as a taxi driver.

So why was he in a restricted area at ratchaprasong, driving a white van? Surely he wasn't collecting a fare?

He wasn't driving the van. He went outside when the van was shot at. At least that's how it reads to me.

[KireB]

Cut part of post............

it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

It wasn't a tennis match and neither was a score board available with a casualty tally! Reds attacked civilians and security personnel during their siege and the military had no other choice eventually than to clear the city. Maybe you missed the big picture? Let me explain it to you: the sovereign state of Thailand was under attack by red morons fighting for their perception of democracy (money hand outs and gangsters running the show).

[AleG]

What is your point besides trying to call me a liar without using the word?

The military was in charge in the SOE - period.

Their shooting people had nothing to do with the police.

How much more honest does it get?

So why don't you give the correct answer, the police is the state agency in charge of keeping law and order, here in Thailand and in every other country I can think of.

That's a simple fact, yet you obfuscate and obfuscate, why is that?

The SOE was called for after the police couldn't and/or wouldn't perform its duty (as of their lack of neutrality here's one of today's news), do you remember how this discussion began? you said

Abhisit declared the SOE 3 days before the first dispersal attempt and it had nothing to do with the police.

The police were an active part of the crowd control right up to that point and there are plenty of reports showing them doing their job and - so far - I have never found one of them not doing their job before Abhisit declared the SOE.

I think the reason you are so reluctant to state the fact that the police is in charge of keeping law and order is that you want to argue that things were fine under the watch of the RTP, the actions of the Red Shirts and the general state of the country didn't merit a SOE. The police failing to uphold law and order in the face of the Red Shirts "protest" would go against the version of events that you are peddling, that the government unnecessarily called the SOE and the Army.

That's the Red Shirt narrative, blood lusty Abhisit just couldn't wait to unleash soldiers on peaceful protesters. Case in point, you said quite explicitly (although you may now try to weasel out of your own words) that Abhisit would have called the Army regardless of the level of threats and violence from the Red Shirts and the general loss of the rule of law.

You don't want to face the facts on why the SOE was invoked, why the Army was on the streets and why eventually there were firefights and deaths, because those facts point to a violent, unlawful "protest" movement engaging in activities that would be suppressed by the police in any mature democracy in the world.

[Nickymaster]

The 15th of May, when this event occurred, was after the shooting of the general and the beginning of the military crackdown on the protesters which was to go on for another 4 days.

You'll notice that there is a difference in descriptions of the events between the reports - The AFP quotes the judge as saying :

""He was killed by gunfire from weapons of military personnel who fired at a van which drove into a restricted area," said judge Jitakorn Patanasiri"

And The Nation paraphrases the court for us saying :

"The court ruled that troops who were carrying out the operation fired at a van driven by Samorn Maithong when it was trying to break through the security checkpoint of troops in the Rajprasong."

Now for me, driving into a restricted area and trying to break through a security checkpoint create vastly different images in my mind. But as the AFP points out,

"The court acknowledged that there had been conflicts between the testimony of civilian and army witnesses to the event."

so I am not surprised that the reporting of the pro-Abhisit media outlet, The Nation, might create one image for it's readers whereas a normal news source without a Thai agenda might create another. I am not drawing conclusions regarding the actual events from either, but I don't blinding accept a rather vivid image of a van bursting through an orderly army checkpoint and the military then opening fire.

As it happens, there is another eyewitness report, extremely vivid, documented, and easily available which is from the very same day and it does provide a full context of the situation for the reader. It shows the chaos that day and describes in detail a series of events, how they began, progressed, and ended specific details.

This is from the same day and the same area as the OP. There are no men in black, no police in this. Just some protesters, some reporter, other civilians, and the army.

I think people who read this account will understand just how dangerous it was on that day - not only for the "regular" protesters, but certainly for anyone who happened to find themselves close to the military operations on that day - like the van, like the gentleman who was shot and killed in the OP.

BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone.

Here is the article from Nick Nostitz, who was in the middle of it all on the 15th -

http://asiapacific.a...e-killing-zone/

(January), April and May, 2010 were very dangerous months indeed, ALSO for the security forces and the general public.

Let's highlight some events building up to the terrible crackdown on May 15, 2010:

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

- the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

- the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers (see Thairath).

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers and their families;

As you stated correctly Mr. Tlansford:

"BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone".

Unfortunately she is not alone!

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

Edited September 19, 2012 by Nickymaster

[Buchholz]

Right ... the brainwashing sessions went for several weeks but started after May 10. What a complete load of BS.

... as usual.

Note the edit in original post

Still BS.

Why does B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z "like" a post which has only two words and one is "BS"?

Why are you shouting my name in all caps?

Why do you have a problem with posters liking a post when no one questions why you like a particular post?

When did any one be called on to justify liking a post?

Why do you seem to focus so much on this aspect of the forum software?

.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

Why does B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z "like" a post which has only two words and one is "BS"?

Because he agrees that the post that it was referring to is BS.

Sent from my HTC phone.

but that is swearing and B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z typically shows contempt for swearing as well as for being a violation of forum rules and etiquette.

Still shouting my name in all caps I see.

Show examples of my "typically shows contempt for swearing"

.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Buchholz

[tlansford]

Cut part of post............

it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

It wasn't a tennis match and neither was a score board available with a casualty tally! Reds attacked civilians and security personnel during their siege and the military had no other choice eventually than to clear the city. Maybe you missed the big picture? Let me explain it to you: the sovereign state of Thailand was under attack by red morons fighting for their perception of democracy (money hand outs and gangsters running the show).

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

No it is not a tennis match - what a callous way to dismiss the people killed and injured by the army. But if you somehow think that a ratio of around 8-1 of fatalities indicates that the poor army was being terrorized by protesters, then you should ... well nevermind - whatever.

[Nickymaster]

Cut part of post............

it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

It wasn't a tennis match and neither was a score board available with a casualty tally! Reds attacked civilians and security personnel during their siege and the military had no other choice eventually than to clear the city. Maybe you missed the big picture? Let me explain it to you: the sovereign state of Thailand was under attack by red morons fighting for their perception of democracy (money hand outs and gangsters running the show).

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

No it is not a tennis match - what a callous way to dismiss the people killed and injured by the army. But if you somehow think that a ratio of around 8-1 of fatalities indicates that the poor army was being terrorized by protesters, then you should ... well nevermind - whatever.

8-1? You mean 7-2.

70 protestors and 20 officials. The first 10 people killed were officials.

An incredible ratio. Unheard of in any modern democracy.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Nickymaster

[whybother]

8-1? You mean 7-2.

70 protestors and 20 officials. The first 10 people killed were officials.

An incredible ratio. Unheard of in any modern democracy.

Possibly, of the first 5 people killed, 4 were officials. Maybe of the next 5 killed, 1, possibly 2, were officials.

[tlansford]

The 15th of May, when this event occurred, was after the shooting of the general and the beginning of the military crackdown on the protesters which was to go on for another 4 days.

You'll notice that there is a difference in descriptions of the events between the reports - The AFP quotes the judge as saying :

""He was killed by gunfire from weapons of military personnel who fired at a van which drove into a restricted area," said judge Jitakorn Patanasiri"

And The Nation paraphrases the court for us saying :

"The court ruled that troops who were carrying out the operation fired at a van driven by Samorn Maithong when it was trying to break through the security checkpoint of troops in the Rajprasong."

Now for me, driving into a restricted area and trying to break through a security checkpoint create vastly different images in my mind. But as the AFP points out,

"The court acknowledged that there had been conflicts between the testimony of civilian and army witnesses to the event."

so I am not surprised that the reporting of the pro-Abhisit media outlet, The Nation, might create one image for it's readers whereas a normal news source without a Thai agenda might create another. I am not drawing conclusions regarding the actual events from either, but I don't blinding accept a rather vivid image of a van bursting through an orderly army checkpoint and the military then opening fire.

As it happens, there is another eyewitness report, extremely vivid, documented, and easily available which is from the very same day and it does provide a full context of the situation for the reader. It shows the chaos that day and describes in detail a series of events, how they began, progressed, and ended specific details.

This is from the same day and the same area as the OP. There are no men in black, no police in this. Just some protesters, some reporter, other civilians, and the army.

I think people who read this account will understand just how dangerous it was on that day - not only for the "regular" protesters, but certainly for anyone who happened to find themselves close to the military operations on that day - like the van, like the gentleman who was shot and killed in the OP.

BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone.

Here is the article from Nick Nostitz, who was in the middle of it all on the 15th -

http://asiapacific.a...e-killing-zone/

(January), April and May, 2010 were very dangerous months indeed, ALSO for the security forces and the general public.

Let's highlight some events building up to the terrible crackdown on May 15, 2010:

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

- the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

- the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers (see Thairath).

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers and their families;

As you stated correctly Mr. Tlansford:

"BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone".

Unfortunately she is not alone!

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

first death - a protester. 30 minutes before the MiB were spotted. Killed by an unknown sniper. Not the military.

the ISA was invoked before the first protester arrived, and the SOE 3 days before Apr 10th and the disastrous dispersal attempt. The use of lethal force had also already been approved. Was that necessary? Was it smart to put the army in full control when they so clearly botched the dispersal April 10th? I don't.

Play with fire, you and kireb are both pretty callous regarding the deaths of people.

But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?

[tlansford]

Cut part of post............

it is my opinion that you have missed the big picture regarding who did most of the slaughtering and terrorizing...

The killing wasn't justified on either side. But it is laughable the level of mis-information and mis-representation expressed on these pages.

It wasn't a tennis match and neither was a score board available with a casualty tally! Reds attacked civilians and security personnel during their siege and the military had no other choice eventually than to clear the city. Maybe you missed the big picture? Let me explain it to you: the sovereign state of Thailand was under attack by red morons fighting for their perception of democracy (money hand outs and gangsters running the show).

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

No it is not a tennis match - what a callous way to dismiss the people killed and injured by the army. But if you somehow think that a ratio of around 8-1 of fatalities indicates that the poor army was being terrorized by protesters, then you should ... well nevermind - whatever.

8-1? You mean 7-2.

70 protestors and 20 officials. The first 10 people killed were officials.

An incredible ratio. Unheard of in any modern democracy.

does it matter? does it make a difference to you if it is 7-2 or 8-1? Would 8-1 have been over the line? 7.5-1?

Thailand is not only a modern democracy, but a young one. And protests are what happens when a democratically elected government is stolen from the people by the old-power elite. The typical response of the old-powered elite is to suppress any and all opposition. This is what happened in 2010. Protests and suppression of those protests. It was dam.n ugly.

I was appalled by the violence on both sides, and particularly by that of the government. I wasn't surprised, but I was appalled.

As for you and me, I don't think that we have the least bit of common ground which is generally needed for a discussion. Same for KireB.

[Nickymaster]

(January), April and May, 2010 were very dangerous months indeed, ALSO for the security forces and the general public.

Let's highlight some events building up to the terrible crackdown on May 15, 2010:

-the firing of an M79 into the 11th Infantry Regiment on January 28, 2010;

-the firing of grenades during the incidents at Kok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, which caused 5 deaths of soldiers (including that of Col Romklao);

-the firing into the oil depot at Prathum Thani on April 21, 2010;

-the firing of an M79 into the BTS station at Sala-Daeng on April 22, 2010, which caused 2 deaths and 78 injuries;

- the firing of an M16 on police officers and soldiers in front of the Krung Thai Bank, Sala-Daeng Branch, on May 7, 2010, which caused 1 death and 2 injuries of policemen;

- the firing into the UCL building on May 14, 2010, causing 1 deaths and 4 injuries of police officers (see Thairath).

-the firing of an RPG into Dusit-Thani Hotel on May 17, 2010

-the firing attack into the police flat at Lumpini Police Station on May 19, 2010, causing deaths and injuries of police officers and their families;

As you stated correctly Mr. Tlansford:

"BTW, I feel very bad for his daughter who was pictured in one of the follow up articles. There is nothing that one can do now for the loss of her father and she is, unfortunately, not alone".

Unfortunately she is not alone!

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

first death - a protester. 30 minutes before the MiB were spotted. Killed by an unknown sniper. Not the military.

the ISA was invoked before the first protester arrived, and the SOE 3 days before Apr 10th and the disastrous dispersal attempt. The use of lethal force had also already been approved. Was that necessary? Was it smart to put the army in full control when they so clearly botched the dispersal April 10th? I don't.

Play with fire, you and kireb are both pretty callous regarding the deaths of people.

But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?

"But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?"

History? Are you serious? The protestors were there because of Thaksin's revenge for the coup. Thaksin was trying to copy Hun Sen and Thailand was not ready for that. If you promote democracy, you should condemn corruption. But you don’t. For you Thaksin is still THE MAN.

Problem with you, Thaksin and all the reds is that you support democracy AND corruption.

...and you are pretty callous regarding the deaths security forces.

ps. Still waiting on those reports showing that the Thai Police did a good job providing law and order during the Red occupation of downtown Bangkok.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Nickymaster

[Nickymaster]

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

No it is not a tennis match - what a callous way to dismiss the people killed and injured by the army. But if you somehow think that a ratio of around 8-1 of fatalities indicates that the poor army was being terrorized by protesters, then you should ... well nevermind - whatever.

8-1? You mean 7-2.

70 protestors and 20 officials. The first 10 people killed were officials.

An incredible ratio. Unheard of in any modern democracy.

does it matter? does it make a difference to you if it is 7-2 or 8-1? Would 8-1 have been over the line? 7.5-1?

Thailand is not only a modern democracy, but a young one. And protests are what happens when a democratically elected government is stolen from the people by the old-power elite. The typical response of the old-powered elite is to suppress any and all opposition. This is what happened in 2010. Protests and suppression of those protests. It was dam.n ugly.

I was appalled by the violence on both sides, and particularly by that of the government. I wasn't surprised, but I was appalled.

As for you and me, I don't think that we have the least bit of common ground which is generally needed for a discussion. Same for KireB.

"Thailand is not only a modern democracy, but a young one".

So why do you support corruption?

[KireB]

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

Talk about simplification, how conveniently hypocritical. The man with the slingshot, was he in a life firing zone? Those zones were established and deemed necessary by the military to guarantee the safety of the people of Bangkok. I am sure that the man with the slingshot must have heard and read the warning he got in the weeks before he was shot! You are not, and I repeat, not seeing the big picture at all. You are using fragments and parts of what happened. Very shortsighted and dangerous.

Ps: I am not saying the man deserved to get shot, but if you would defy police and army orders on let's say 9/11 back then in the US, you had a pretty good chance you would get shot!

[candid]

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

Talk about simplification, how conveniently hypocritical. The man with the slingshot, was he in a life firing zone? Those zones were established and deemed necessary by the military to guarantee the safety of the people of Bangkok. I am sure that the man with the slingshot must have heard and read the warning he got in the weeks before he was shot! You are not, and I repeat, not seeing the big picture at all. You are using fragments and parts of what happened. Very shortsighted and dangerous.

Ps: I am not saying the man deserved to get shot, but if you would defy police and army orders on let's say 9/11 back then in the US, you had a pretty good chance you would get shot!

why does May 15th keep coming up? There may have been a lot happening that day, but everything that happened if the previous few weeks was to blame for it kicking off

[birdpooguava]

The long-promised People’s Information Centre (PIC) report on the Abhisit Vejjajiva government’s 2010 crackdown on red shirts is about to be released. The Nation reports that the PIC “claims there were 94 deaths from all sides.”

Puangthong Pawakapan says that there were “many ‘stray’ deaths, of those who had nothing to do with the protests but were hit by stray bullets.” PPT will wait to see more on this as we can’t help believing that soldiers with scopes and high-powered war weapons are not likely to be shooting like drunks hunting. In fact, “almost 30 per cent of the deaths resulted from bullet wounds on their heads. And if combined with another 22 per cent who died from gunshot wounds on the chest, the figure is above 50 per cent.” That seems pretty clear on shooting to kill particular targets.

PIC also shows that the “death and violence” in May 2010 occurred as soon as the “military operations began from May 14…”. There is mention that military accounts of events make it clear that “the ‘success’ of the military operation [was]… credited to the use of live bullets against protesters.”

On so-called men in black, PIC’s Puangthong says:

there is no clarity as to who they were and even the [Abhisit Vejjajiva] government has failed to trace them. Also, deaths and injuries occurred on the afternoon of April 10, [2010], before the claim by the Abhisit administration and the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) that it occurred in the evening [after clashing with 'men in black'].

The [Abhisit] government says those who died were terrorists but in the evidence we gathered, we discover no traces of gunpowder on the hands of any of those killed.

On the deployment of Army snipers, Puangthong makes the obvious point: “There are so many video clips on the Internet showing many soldiers using telescopic guns…. This is no shooting for self-defence [as claimed by the Abhisit government].”

[Buchholz]

The long-promised People’s Information Centre (PIC) report

hmmmmm...

Is the People's Information Center run by VoiceTV?: http://www.peaceandj....org/?page_id=2

VoiceTV is owned by Pantongtae and Pintongta Shinawatra, the son and daughter of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Buchholz

[tlansford]

- deleted for quote limits -

Absolutely. And I include the dead soldiers, police, and their families in my concerns every bit as much as the dead protesters, counter-protesters, reporters, medics and monks.

But please be fair and list all the violence from the Army and the people they are alleged to have killed and injured as well. Please - do the count. Do the math.

Who started the killing spree?

Do the math: 20 officals were killed and 70 protestors. It all started with the killing of the officials. Before the crackdown began on May 15, around 10 officials were killed and hundreds wounded.

And you are criticising the use of an SOE...amazing.

Be fair.

Where I come from we say:

If you play with fire you might get burned

first death - a protester. 30 minutes before the MiB were spotted. Killed by an unknown sniper. Not the military.

the ISA was invoked before the first protester arrived, and the SOE 3 days before Apr 10th and the disastrous dispersal attempt. The use of lethal force had also already been approved. Was that necessary? Was it smart to put the army in full control when they so clearly botched the dispersal April 10th? I don't.

Play with fire, you and kireb are both pretty callous regarding the deaths of people.

But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?

"But looking over the history of this conflict, that analogy is relatively fitting WRT the opposition to the Abhisit government given the means he used to come to power, isn't it?"

History? Are you serious? The protestors were there because of Thaksin's revenge for the coup. Thaksin was trying to copy Hun Sen and Thailand was not ready for that. If you promote democracy, you should condemn corruption. But you don’t. For you Thaksin is still THE MAN.

Problem with you, Thaksin and all the reds is that you support democracy AND corruption.

...and you are pretty callous regarding the deaths security forces.

ps. Still waiting on those reports showing that the Thai Police did a good job providing law and order during the Red occupation of downtown Bangkok.

"Problem with you, ... is that you support democracy AND corruption."

now you are just making stuff up...

"...and you are pretty callous regarding the deaths security forces."

and still more stuff ... and that one was really stupid, too - I condemn all the violence in 2010 even if I also understand how and why it happened.

"For you Thaksin is still THE MAN."

Now, I think you are in some kind of dream in fact...

"The protestors were there because of Thaksin's revenge for the coup. Thaksin was trying to copy Hun Sen and Thailand was not ready for that."

If this is actually how you view the situation, then I am certain that there is no common ground for a discussion.

PS: I haven't forgotten about you and the pre-10/4 articles.

[tlansford]

that is your big picture.

unfortunately it it just a dogma-driven oversimplification of a conflict and has little to do with the reality of the situation in 2010.

Read the account of May 15th from NN and read the part about the army firing without any pauses at a group of protesters behind tires armed with a slingshot, or how they were shooting at him as he ran for cover, then the part as he heard the boots meeting flesh when the solders were beating the unarmed protesters in the gas station, or the fear he had that the solders would just open fire over the wall in to the garden where they were hiding or or or...

I don't care if the protesters are red, yellow or green shirts, no government should do these things to their own citizens. I understand the conditions which led to these events pretty well, but that doesn't mean I think it was in any way justified.

Talk about simplification, how conveniently hypocritical. The man with the slingshot, was he in a life firing zone? Those zones were established and deemed necessary by the military to guarantee the safety of the people of Bangkok. I am sure that the man with the slingshot must have heard and read the warning he got in the weeks before he was shot! You are not, and I repeat, not seeing the big picture at all. You are using fragments and parts of what happened. Very shortsighted and dangerous.

Ps: I am not saying the man deserved to get shot, but if you would defy police and army orders on let's say 9/11 back then in the US, you had a pretty good chance you would get shot!

why does May 15th keep coming up? There may have been a lot happening that day, but everything that happened if the previous few weeks was to blame for it kicking off

because of the OP.

It's the topic...

[birdpooguava]

The long-promised People’s Information Centre (PIC) report

hmmmmm...

Is the People's Information Center run by VoiceTV?: http://www.peaceandj....org/?page_id=2

VoiceTV is owned by Pantongtae and Pintongta Shinawatra, the son and daughter of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

PIC are a group of academics

Voice TV is refreshingly unbiased and has good debates with representatives from all sectors of the political spectrum

[tlansford]

When posters don't like the information delivered in a news posting, then they decide that shooting the messenger is easier (discrediting the source).

Which is a joke on a forum where 90% of the news clippings come from The Nation.

Maybe they should be M-a-n-e-n-o-u-g-h to just address the actual information provided. Would it not be more interesting to explain 30% of the deaths from head shots and 22% from chest shots and understand why this happened or how it could have happened?

[philw]

The long-promised People’s Information Centre (PIC) report on the Abhisit Vejjajiva government’s 2010 crackdown on red shirts is about to be released. The Nation reports that the PIC “claims there were 94 deaths from all sides.”

Puangthong Pawakapan says that there were “many ‘stray’ deaths, of those who had nothing to do with the protests but were hit by stray bullets.” PPT will wait to see more on this as we can’t help believing that soldiers with scopes and high-powered war weapons are not likely to be shooting like drunks hunting. In fact, “almost 30 per cent of the deaths resulted from bullet wounds on their heads. And if combined with another 22 per cent who died from gunshot wounds on the chest, the figure is above 50 per cent.” That seems pretty clear on shooting to kill particular targets.

PIC also shows that the “death and violence” in May 2010 occurred as soon as the “military operations began from May 14…”. There is mention that military accounts of events make it clear that “the ‘success’ of the military operation [was]… credited to the use of live bullets against protesters.”

On so-called men in black, PIC’s Puangthong says:

there is no clarity as to who they were and even the [Abhisit Vejjajiva] government has failed to trace them. Also, deaths and injuries occurred on the afternoon of April 10, [2010], before the claim by the Abhisit administration and the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) that it occurred in the evening [after clashing with 'men in black'].

The [Abhisit] government says those who died were terrorists but in the evidence we gathered, we discover no traces of gunpowder on the hands of any of those killed.

On the deployment of Army snipers, Puangthong makes the obvious point: “There are so many video clips on the Internet showing many soldiers using telescopic guns…. This is no shooting for self-defence [as claimed by the Abhisit government].”

Good points and from a source that is not in love with Yingluck.

[nurofiend]

When posters don't like the information delivered in a news posting, then they decide that shooting the messenger is easier (discrediting the source).

Which is a joke on a forum where 90% of the news clippings come from The Nation.

indeed...indeed.

the ironing is delicous.

[Buchholz]

Maybe they should be M-a-n-e-n-o-u-g-h to just address the actual information provided.

Says the hypocrit that isn't man enough to address his post to me directly.

,

Edited September 19, 2012 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

The long-promised People’s Information Centre (PIC) report

hmmmmm...

Is the People's Information Center run by VoiceTV?: http://www.peaceandj....org/?page_id=2

VoiceTV is owned by Pantongtae and Pintongta Shinawatra, the son and daughter of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

PIC are a group of academics

Voice TV is refreshingly unbiased and has good debates with representatives from all sectors of the political spectrum

So why is "unbiased" Shinawatra's Voice TV all over their website?

Who provides the financing for PIC?

but anyway, that report is a topic that already has its own topic-specific thread with your referenced post being the OP and it already has 6 pages of posts...

Deaths From Stray Bullets 'shock' Group

http://www.thaivisa....ts-shock-group/

but by all means, rehash it some more and more in this thread....

.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Buchholz