Video: Obama In Tonight's Late Show With David Letterman

[Chicog]

@koheetsi - yeah, that sounds all fuzzy and wonderful, until you realize that virtually all so-called charity activities by the LDS church exist for one key reason: to convert those less fortunate to Mormonism. In most of those charities there is a hook, either explicit, or subtle, that reels the recipients into some type of recruiting effort into the church.

People who are suffering don't really care about the motivations of those who are helping. "A free wheelchair? No, thanks, I'd rather crawl around on the ground than talk to a Mormon" or "Clean water? No, thanks, I'll take my chances with Cholera than get help from some religious organization".

How many charities out there are run by atheists?

Quite a few I'd imagine.

But sticking to the topic, I'm not sure if voters would really consider donating a chunk of cash to the Mormon church (especially if there are tax deductions for it) to be quite as noble as donating it to, say, the Gates foundation or Medecin San Frontieres (tax deductible or not).

Put simply: If he's been doing this to get votes and try and/or distract from the fact that he refuses to release his tax records, I doubt that it will work.

"Only part of his donations were tax deductible"

Could someone be more specific? Say he donated $4 million, approx. how much of that would be deductible (bearing in mind he uses two vehicles, donations straight to the Church and through his own foundation)?

Edited September 25, 2012 by Chicog

[chuckd]

@koheetsi - yeah, that sounds all fuzzy and wonderful, until you realize that virtually all so-called charity activities by the LDS church exist for one key reason: to convert those less fortunate to Mormonism. In most of those charities there is a hook, either explicit, or subtle, that reels the recipients into some type of recruiting effort into the church.

People who are suffering don't really care about the motivations of those who are helping. "A free wheelchair? No, thanks, I'd rather crawl around on the ground than talk to a Mormon" or "Clean water? No, thanks, I'll take my chances with Cholera than get help from some religious organization".

How many charities out there are run by atheists?

Quite a few I'd imagine.

But sticking to the topic, I'm not sure if voters would really consider donating a chunk of cash to the Mormon church (especially if there are tax deductions for it) to be quite as noble as donating it to, say, the Gates foundation or Medecin San Frontieres (tax deductible or not).

Put simply: If he's been doing this to get votes and try and/or distract from the fact that he refuses to release his tax records, I doubt that it will work.

"Only part of his donations were tax deductible"

Could someone be more specific? Say he donated $4 million, approx. how much of that would be deductible (bearing in mind he uses two vehicles, donations straight to the Church and through his own foundation)?

I don't really understand why you expect others to do your research for you, but here goes.

Go to this link and read it thoroughly. It is from The Daily Beast which is the web site for Newsweek Magazine and is hardly an Obama enemy, so you can trust their word.

The article closes with this paragraph...

" I was expecting to end this by saying that he doesn't go out of his way to pay extra taxes, but it turns out, he actually did. (Though not, I think, because the US government is actually his favorite charity.) So I'll instead end by saying that in an ideal world, neither the tax code nor Mitt Romney's tax return would look exactly like this one does now. But as far as I can tell after wading through it, in the world we actually live in, his tax planning seems to be entirely unremarkable and completely within the law."

The answer about his donations is in the article.

http://www.thedailyb...ax-returns.html

[bendejo]

Mormons are strong on tithing. No choice is involved, if you don't you're excom-mormon-cated, or whatever they call it. It's not literally 1/10, there are all sorts of accounting rules. I used to go out with a gal who was raised Mormon, told me that she broke off with the church when she was 16 and demanded that her parents no longer pay her tithe -- I think it is something like when a family has another kid the cost goes up. This became a big deal for the family and the church, her father would no longer speak to her afterwards.

Anyway, the point I'm making is the contributions are virtually involuntary. I don't want to start a bash-fest on them, but when it comes to money and property those guys are not brotherly at all, even to each other, and are infamous for it. A few years ago there was a case where a US football player who is one of them became a star player making big bucks, and the church told him publicly he was obliged to give them a generous slice of the pie because if not for the scholarships etc he wouldn't be what he is.

Maybe it can be said that Romney has more tax experience than the average person.

Personally, I don't think of giving money to a church as charity per se, the money goes to building/maintaining churches, gold ornaments etc. Charity IMO is about helping people in need. Yeah, every church has its vanity charity programs, which on their list of top ten priorities is probably #20.

[Ulysses G.]

[but sticking to the topic, I'm not sure if voters would really consider donating a chunk of cash to the Mormon church (especially if there are tax deductions for it) to be quite as noble as donating it to, say, the Gates foundation or Medecin San Frontieres (tax deductible or not).

Most voters in USA are Christians and yes they would consider giving money to their church as charity. Maybe someone can start a Catholic church bashing thread next as Ryan is a Catholic.

[Chicog]

Could someone be more specific? Say he donated $4 million, approx. how much of that would be deductible (bearing in mind he uses two vehicles, donations straight to the Church and through his own foundation)?

I don't really understand why you expect others to do your research for you, but here goes.

Go to this link and read it thoroughly. It is from The Daily Beast which is the web site for Newsweek Magazine and is hardly an Obama enemy, so you can trust their word.

The article closes with this paragraph...

" I was expecting to end this by saying that he doesn't go out of his way to pay extra taxes, but it turns out, he actually did. (Though not, I think, because the US government is actually his favorite charity.) So I'll instead end by saying that in an ideal world, neither the tax code nor Mitt Romney's tax return would look exactly like this one does now. But as far as I can tell after wading through it, in the world we actually live in, his tax planning seems to be entirely unremarkable and completely within the law."

The answer about his donations is in the article.

http://www.thedailyb...ax-returns.html

I didn't actually want to put you to any trouble, i was just wondering if there was a normal figure for it (in this case, more than half was deducted, but he could have deducted more).

But that's a breakdown of 2011, I think people are more interested in what he was doing prior to deciding he was going to run. He's had ample time to shift stuff around, and I can't see why he thinks keeping it a secret is going to help his campaign - unless there is something in there that would really alienate him from the less fortunate, why not publish.

After all, if it's the system that lets him pay less tax per dollar than people earning much less, then it's the system that may deserve criticism, not him for working within it.

You may have heard of a comedian in the UK called Jimmy Carr. He was quite notable for criticism of the rich and powerful and their tax havens and so on - until it was revealed that he himself was using some shell company in Ireland to avoid paying his share of taxes in the mainland.

Made him look pretty stupid.

Thanks for looking it up, appreciated.

[Ulysses G.]

I can't see why he thinks keeping it a secret is going to help his campaign

Because he has seen how the Obama campaign constantly make something out of nothing and mountains out of molehills. It distracts from the important issues that they want to avoid. For example, first Harry Reid claimed that he hasn't paid any taxes at all and then when he proved that he had, Reid started complaining about a conspiracy because he could have taken more deductions and paid less. He does not legally have to provide any more information and he should not.

[Neurath]

Is the Church Of Scientology recognized as a charity in the US. I know it's recognized as a religion in the US, but can you claim tax deductions for giving to the Church of Scientology?

Romney's going to have make some appearances on programs like Letterman because the mainstream media just won't let his message of prosperity and full employment get out the public and most people get their information from the mainstream media.

[Scott]

It's been a number of years since I was involved in charities and the tax regulations, but many exist under a church umbrella because getting a 501©3 status as a non-profit. The requirements are relatively stringent.

But I think we are moving a little far off-topic bringing Scientology into the mix.

[Neurath]

"Here and now I want to make myself clear about those who disparage their fellow citizens on the relief rolls. They say that those on relief are not merely jobless—that they are worthless. Their solution for the relief problem is to end relief—to purge the rolls by starvation. To use the language of the stock broker, our needy unemployed would be cared for when, as, and if some fairy godmother should happen on the scene.

You and I will continue to refuse to accept that estimate of our unemployed fellow Americans. Your Government is still on the same side of the street with the Good Samaritan and not with those who pass by on the other side."

Sounds kinda like an Obama statement about Romney, but was Franklin Roosevelt in 1936.

[Chicog]

I can't see why he thinks keeping it a secret is going to help his campaign

Because he has seen how the Obama campaign constantly make something out of nothing and mountains out of molehills. It distracts from the important issues that they want to avoid. For example, first Harry Reid claimed that he hasn't paid any taxes at all and then when he proved that he had, Reid started complaining about a conspiracy because he could have taken more deductions and paid less. He does not legally have to provide any more information and he should not.

I would think it's an important issue to the American people that a man who wants to cut tax for the wealthy is someone who pays his fair share, not the bare minimum he has to.

In fact I would go so far as to say it's an important issue that Romney wants to avoid, is it not?

[wellred]

This is just a big slagging off match... but for what it's worth Romney looks like he has potential.... to reach Bush Jnr levels of stupidness with his slip ups. Hope Obama wins.

[Ulysses G.]

I would think it's an important issue to the American people that a man who wants to cut tax for the wealthy is someone who pays his fair share, not the bare minimum he has to.

According the the laws of the United States, he already is paying his fair share. He wants to lower the tax rates for everyone, but deductions for the rich would be gotten rid of, so the rich would keep paying what they are paying now. The middle class would end up paying less than they are now.

[Neurath]

I would think it's an important issue to the American people that a man who wants to cut tax for the wealthy is someone who pays his fair share, not the bare minimum he has to.

According the the laws of the United States, he already is paying his fair share. He wants to lower the tax rates for everyone, but deductions for the rich would be gotten rid of, so the rich would keep paying what they are paying now. The middle class would end up paying less than they are now.

If the rich pay what they're paying now but the middle class pay less in taxes, wouldn't that cause an immediate and huge blow-out in the deficit? What deductions are being specifically slated for being trashed? Can't see how the math works on this.

[keemapoot]

I would think it's an important issue to the American people that a man who wants to cut tax for the wealthy is someone who pays his fair share, not the bare minimum he has to.

According the the laws of the United States, he already is paying his fair share. He wants to lower the tax rates for everyone, but deductions for the rich would be gotten rid of, so the rich would keep paying what they are paying now. The middle class would end up paying less than they are now.

If the rich pay what they're paying now but the middle class pay less in taxes, wouldn't that cause an immediate and huge blow-out in the deficit? What deductions are being specifically slated for being trashed? Can't see how the math works on this.

Agreed. Hard to see how the math works. Speaking today, President Clinton said "So to do it, you have to go down and raise — and cut the deductions enough that you wind up raising taxes on people in the middle income group. That's the problem."

http://thehill.com/video/campaign/258465-clinton-romneys-refusal-to-name-deductions-for-elimination-should-raise-red-flag

[chuckd]

What I don't understand is nobody seems to get it. Raising taxes isn't the solution. The solution is for the federal government to cut their spending by about 50%.

When it takes some $3.7 TRILLION to finance this burdensome bureaucracy for one year, something is wrong, particularly when the revenue is somewhere around $2 TRILLION.

Right now the only growth industry is federal employment and it must stop. The Post Office is broke, Amtrak is broke and before you know it Obamacare will be broke. The State Department, Energy, Education, EPA, Homeland Security, HHS and very likely nearly every agency or department could be drastically pared down with little impact on the services the government provides.

Bring all the military home and close the bases around the world. Let the Navy handle the light stuff and bring in the Marines if necessary for the heavy work. Forget democracy in the Middle East and let them go back to their tribal roots. Tell Russia, North Korea and Iran to eff off. If they want to face MAD again, accommodate them. If Europe has another civil war, let it remain just that...a civil war.

Drill wherever there might be oil in the US and offshore and become energy independent and not have to depend on some whim over a Canadian pipeline or whether somebody in Mexico gets their feelings hurt about the oil revenue.

That would take care of my first week in office if you choose to elect me.

Does this make me an isolationist? If so...tough.

[keemapoot]

^ I guess that makes you Ron Paul. And I really like Ron Paul. You get my vote.

[koheesti]

Personally, I don't think of giving money to a church as charity per se, the money goes to building/maintaining churches, gold ornaments etc. Charity IMO is about helping people in need. Yeah, every church has its vanity charity programs, which on their list of top ten priorities is probably #20.

So Romney gave $4 million to help maintain Church buildings and not to the LDS charity? If that is true, I agree it doesn't really count in my eyes either. But if he gave to the charities that help people in need, then his critics should shut their pie holes regardless of his hidden motives for giving. There is not one charity on the planet that tests people on true motives before accepting donations so why should LDS be any different?

BTW - I downloaded Obama's 2010 tax return...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/04/15/president-obama-and-vice-president-biden-s-tax-returns

It shows he gave a decent chunk and that the details were in Statement 7. Only problem, in the 59 pages he released, it only goes as high as Statement 4. Maybe I missed it but if not, he is hiding something sinister you can count on it.

[koheesti]

What I don't understand is nobody seems to get it. Raising taxes isn't the solution. The solution is for the federal government to cut their spending by about 50%.

When it takes some $3.7 TRILLION to finance this burdensome bureaucracy for one year, something is wrong, particularly when the revenue is somewhere around $2 TRILLION.

Right now the only growth industry is federal employment and it must stop. The Post Office is broke, Amtrak is broke and before you know it Obamacare will be broke. The State Department, Energy, Education, EPA, Homeland Security, HHS and very likely nearly every agency or department could be drastically pared down with little impact on the services the government provides.

Bring all the military home and close the bases around the world. Let the Navy handle the light stuff and bring in the Marines if necessary for the heavy work. Forget democracy in the Middle East and let them go back to their tribal roots. Tell Russia, North Korea and Iran to eff off. If they want to face MAD again, accommodate them. If Europe has another civil war, let it remain just that...a civil war.

Drill wherever there might be oil in the US and offshore and become energy independent and not have to depend on some whim over a Canadian pipeline or whether somebody in Mexico gets their feelings hurt about the oil revenue.

That would take care of my first week in office if you choose to elect me.

Does this make me an isolationist? If so...tough.

Yep, that's Ron Paul all right. Feels good, doesn't it?

[nurofiend]

was there no thread on here specifically dedicated to the subject of romney's 'tape'? apologies if i didn't notice it.

"if only he was latino" eh?

god, he's an awful excuse for a human being and being human must be a severe challenge for him.

Edited September 25, 2012 by nurofiend

[omnilangur]

I voted absentee. My vote (among others) will Put Obama over the top for his 2nd term.

Perhaps more interesting: Michelle Obama running for Prez in 2016. If you saw her speech at the Dem Convention, you'll probably see what I mean.

GO OBAMA! I predict he will win again!

[nurofiend]

he'll definitely win it, romney has shot himself in the hoof bigtime.

[Exsexyman]

he'll definitely win it, romney has shot himself in the hoof bigtime.

Looks like Obama should be home and dry. Unless of course he gets caught with a dead woman or a live boy!

[Ulysses G.]

Or unless someone notices the dismal economy and the unraveling of his policy in the Middle East.

[snarky66]

Put simply: If he's been doing this to get votes and try and/or distract from the fact that he refuses to release his tax records, I doubt that it will work.

If I were Romney or Romney's camp I would very publicly offer to release 10 years of taxes; right after mister obama releases all his school records from Occidental forward.

That would shut the obama drones up.

Edited September 25, 2012 by snarky66

[Neurath]

What I don't understand is nobody seems to get it. Raising taxes isn't the solution. The solution is for the federal government to cut their spending by about 50%.

When it takes some $3.7 TRILLION to finance this burdensome bureaucracy for one year, something is wrong, particularly when the revenue is somewhere around $2 TRILLION.

Right now the only growth industry is federal employment and it must stop. The Post Office is broke, Amtrak is broke and before you know it Obamacare will be broke. The State Department, Energy, Education, EPA, Homeland Security, HHS and very likely nearly every agency or department could be drastically pared down with little impact on the services the government provides.

Bring all the military home and close the bases around the world. Let the Navy handle the light stuff and bring in the Marines if necessary for the heavy work. Forget democracy in the Middle East and let them go back to their tribal roots. Tell Russia, North Korea and Iran to eff off. If they want to face MAD again, accommodate them. If Europe has another civil war, let it remain just that...a civil war.

Drill wherever there might be oil in the US and offshore and become energy independent and not have to depend on some whim over a Canadian pipeline or whether somebody in Mexico gets their feelings hurt about the oil revenue.

That would take care of my first week in office if you choose to elect me.

Does this make me an isolationist? If so...tough.

Yep, that's Ron Paul all right. Feels good, doesn't it?

Yes, very Ron Paulish and as such on the road to redemption. Just on thing though: does this include an abondonment of the War on Drugs and the legalization of personal use of all currently illegal drugs up to an including smack, hammer, horse and Henrey? That's Ron Paul's Policy - very much the consistent libertarian. Jeeze I don't reckon Governer Romney would be comfortable with this though. Apparently he's not comfortable with Coke Zero or Pepsi Max or Maxwell House.

[Neurath]

was there no thread on here specifically dedicated to the subject of romney's 'tape'? apologies if i didn't notice it.

"if only he was latino" eh?

god, he's an awful excuse for a human being and being human must be a severe challenge for him.

The motivation behind the comment is in all probability not very nice, but it might go some way to explaining the increasingly strange color of Governor Romney's skin. Is is trying, perhaps even unconsciously, to make his comment a reality?

[Ulysses G.]

Jeeze I don't reckon Governer Romney would be comfortable with this though. Apparently he's not comfortable with Coke Zero or Pepsi Max or Maxwell House.

What he's not comfortable with is letting the Mad Mullahs in Iran have nuclear weapons.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Neurath]

Jeeze I don't reckon Governer Romney would be comfortable with this though. Apparently he's not comfortable with Coke Zero or Pepsi Max or Maxwell House.

What he's not comfortable with is letting the Mad Mullahs in Iran have nuclear weapons.

Especially if they're drinking coke when getting them.

[keemapoot]

Update on Letterman - Romney challenge: Just watched Monday's Letterman show and he has definitely scaled back the taunting of Romney and gone more subtle. He opened his show walking on stage with a big grin and said "Hello Freeloaders!" Only one or two more subtle references and thankfully, he has gotten back to entertainment. His producers probably told him to give it a rest.

[chuckd]

Yes, very Ron Paulish and as such on the road to redemption. Just on thing though: does this include an abondonment of the War on Drugs and the legalization of personal use of all currently illegal drugs up to an including smack, hammer, horse and Henrey? That's Ron Paul's Policy - very much the consistent libertarian. Jeeze I don't reckon Governer Romney would be comfortable with this though. Apparently he's not comfortable with Coke Zero or Pepsi Max or Maxwell House.

Nope. Not legalizing drugs.

If the strongest thing President Romney drinks is water, good for him.