Buying Non Chanote Land

[tebee]

My wife is talking about buying some land that does not have a title deed and legalizing the purchase by making them a loan that they do not pay back.

I assume we then go to court and re-possess but I would be greatful if someone could explain the process to me. It's her own money that is involved and I assume she knows what she is doing, but it's something I've never encountered and would like to know if there are any pitfalls.

And I as the husband, am apparently supposed to be the one who knows everything and gives the correct advice.............

[LennyW]

There will be some sort of deed on the property, maybe have a read of this regarding the different levels of titles and what can and cannot be done with them. http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/thailand-land-title-deeds.html

[JohnC]

All sounds fraught with pitfalls having read the link in the previous post, how can you re-posses something that the party who borrows the money has no title to?

I think some sound legal advice before parting with any cash is called for.

[PattayaPhom]

Buying land without Chanote can be riddled with pitfalls but many Thais have residential and commercial property for years without problems. Personally I wouldnt bother, a recent instance the Tessabahn wish to widen the road 2 meters that takes the width to electric posts, many have built out past the post to the existing roadside have now had to demolish part of their properties.

[johnnyk]

Run, do not walk, from this one.

If there is no chanote then how do you know who is the actual owner? Basically, you don't.

A chanote also shows the land has been officially surveyed by the government and the coordinates are on the chanote.

So no chanote also means you do not know exactly what land you are buying.

There is lots of chanote land out there, why not wait until one is available that you and she like.

[bushwacker]

I agree with Johnnyk, RUN and when you are out of hearing range, then you can laugh out loud.

I had a similar situation recently. Wanted to buy some land in the countryside. A friends uncle (village head man) was trying to sell, for another friend, 375 TW on a paved road in a little built up area of 6 shacky looking houses . After looking at the land, I started to ask some questions. They did not have the Chanote with them but swore up and down that there would be no problem, it was clean and clear and "trust me no tricks". As I tend to trust nobody, I kept asking questions .... like where does the property start, finish, how deep etc. Well ... the inconsistencies started. The "soil-up" land had a big pond in the back which had 70 truck loads removed. Hmmm .... not good. After asking too many questions our friends said she would visit the owner and look at the Chanote and call us.

She called the owner, and it turns out there were two chanotes for the property. She still wanted to see them because she knew that I would have too many questions.

She visited the owner, and it turns out that there is only 1 chanote ... but ... the chanote is for 200 TW not 375 TW. Ouch! The owner says that he wants his full asking price but he will give us for free the other 175TW which of cousres does not have a chanote. The wife thought it was a good deal ... getting 175 free TW ... After a couple of hours of explaination, she started to understand that nothing was free and if the owner could not prove it was his land then it was not his land and so how could he sell it. And that without the chanote, we could build on it and have the true owner come visit us in the future and demand we move off his land, maybe leaving our nice new house behind.

Sufice to say we walked (ran) away from this deal. Now everybody is mad at me because I ask too many questions and am too difficult to deal with. "Why farang like this, this Thailand, things easy here"

[davejones]

So how do you get land registered if there is no chanote. There must be some way of registering land like this, because there is bound to be lots of it. Is there any rule in Thailand that says the land is yours if you can prove you've been using it for a certain amount of time. They have a law in the UK where you get to keep a property if you've lived there for 12 continuous years without any claims against. Seems like a sensible way to deal with these sorts of situation.

[LennyW]

So how do you get land registered if there is no chanote. There must be some way of registering land like this, because there is bound to be lots of it. Is there any rule in Thailand that says the land is yours if you can prove you've been using it for a certain amount of time. They have a law in the UK where you get to keep a property if you've lived there for 12 continuous years without any claims against. Seems like a sensible way to deal with these sorts of situation.

See post #2 and read the info on the link.

[RKASA]

The fact they want to do a repo scam is an alarm bell - a really big one - this would never be necessary to transfer land that is not encumbered by some other restriction. Another scam is to loan the seller money to pay off a loan so you can buy it for a higher price - why - the pay off can be a member to disbursement of funds at closing and they get their money - but oh no they don't want them to know it is being sold. ya right.

[davejones]

The fact they want to do a repo scam is an alarm bell - a really big one - this would never be necessary to transfer land that is not encumbered by some other restriction. Another scam is to loan the seller money to pay off a loan so you can buy it for a higher price - why - the pay off can be a member to disbursement of funds at closing and they get their money - but oh no they don't want them to know it is being sold. ya right.

Interesting post. What the OP needs to understand is that if these people are the legal owners of the land then why do they need to make a loan that isn't paid back? Why can't they just pay for the land? Go along with this and you might find that the real owner turns up and turfs you off their land.

[tebee]

As I understand it, the we make a loan, they don't pay back, we go to court to take the land routine is some sort of legal game to give us(OK her) good title to the land. I've heard of something like that been done, but have no idea how it actually works - maybe it is something that Thais use rather than us Westerners.

It's not paying off other loans, the sellers have it clear, but are only in possession of the land because they have been using it as farmland for 50 odd years.

I know one of my wife's patients does something similar. She make loans to Thai people who want to start a business against land they own in situations like this were the bank would not be interested. But she charges a punitive rate of interest. When the business inevitably fails she goes to court to take the land, gets title to it and subsequently resells at a vast profit. I'm not quite sure if I could live with myself doing that, but it has made her a rich woman.

[breadbin]

why would you be even slightly interested in doing this?

Isn't that fraud? knowing there is no exchange of money and then going to court?

[johnnyk]

As I understand it, the we make a loan, they don't pay back, we go to court to take the land routine is some sort of legal game to give us(OK her) good title to the land. I've heard of something like that been done, but have no idea how it actually works - maybe it is something that Thais use rather than us Westerners.

It's not paying off other loans, the sellers have it clear, but are only in possession of the land because they have been using it as farmland for 50 odd years.

I know one of my wife's patients does something similar. She make loans to Thai people who want to start a business against land they own in situations like this were the bank would not be interested. But she charges a punitive rate of interest. When the business inevitably fails she goes to court to take the land, gets title to it and subsequently resells at a vast profit. I'm not quite sure if I could live with myself doing that, but it has made her a rich woman.

In a nutshell, she is a village loan shark. Nice.

[tebee]

why would you be even slightly interested in doing this?

Isn't that fraud? knowing there is no exchange of money and then going to court?

No - we give them the money, but instead of it being to purchase the land, it's a loan against the land as security. When they don't pay this loan back after X months we take the land in lieu of it.

In a nutshell, she is a village loan shark. Nice.

Well a Bkk loan shark of which I'm sure there are many, I never said I liked the woman or what she did. My wife works at a large private hospital, most of her patients are from the wealthier stratum of society,either thai or foreign. It's a sad fact in today's society many rich people became rich through trampling over those less fortunate. II was commenting on her modus operandi, which seems to result in her getting good title to the land.

I't seems to be the ambition of many Thai's to become loan sharks, my wife had a nurse who use to frequently borrow money off her, but always paid it back. Then one month she couldn't pay it back and disappeared off sick. It seems she had been borrowing money off other senior staff too, interest free, to cover some emergency at home. What she was really doing was loaning it out to the lower level staff at 20% a month interest. Worked ok till one of them did a runner.

[davejones]

But she doesn't have good title to the land, which this whole thread is about. I'd stay well away from this. I hate loan sharks that pray on others, and by buying the land she's taken from others you are only helping her. Up to you, but I just couldn't get involved in that sort of thing.

[Monkeypants]

Thai banks will only lend money on land with a chanote title deed.

Therefor, that is the only land that I buy.

[Sophon]

Thai banks will only lend money on land with a chanote title deed.

Therefor, that is the only land that I buy.

That is not quite true, Thai banks also loan money on land with Nor Sor 3 Gor title. If you check some of the bank websites listing repossessed land for sale, you will find lot's of NS3G land.

I really don't think what the OP is suggesting is going to work. On the type of title he is talking about ownership cannot be transferred, which is why it cannot be sold. I don't see how repossessing it would change that fact. If you could really get a "good title" by repossessing land, then there would be no reason for the banks not to loan money on the land.

Sophon

[ThaidDown]

Have I missed something here ? The land does not have chanote, ok, but what land title does it have (refer to LennyW Link,post#2). Without knowing that how can you tell what the land is worth? Also it's not clear,to me, who actually owns the land, and do they know about these possible transactions.

If the land does not have any title at all, is that possible, it could well be public, Crown land.

I would not be doing any deal without knowing a lot more. Just my opinion.

[taninthai]

Thai people buy sell and build on any land they don't seem to have the same problems as ferang as long as it's not the op's money and he doesn't stand to lose anything leave the Thais to do as they please

[thunder30101]

I always laugh at people married to thais that say its their money if they lose, okay when she loses HER money who is going to pay the bills lol I dont understand why the op is asking for advice you have already made up your mind and she has.

[davejones]

I always laugh at people married to thais that say its their money if they lose, okay when she loses HER money who is going to pay the bills lol I dont understand why the op is asking for advice you have already made up your mind and she has.

I always laugh at comments like yours, because they're usually written by people that don't have any money to lose. LOL.

[chiang mai]

People buy, live on and sell non-Chanotte land every day, locals and farangs, it's not a big deal as long as you pay the tax on the land and register your interest in it.

[Khun Jean]

You all missed the point!

The trick is that by defaulting on a loan it goes to court. The court then finds that the people living on the land have been doing so for 50 years. This entitles them to a landtitle. If the court agrees then it is in practice changed to a piece of land with a title.

The court order then can be taken to the landoffice and the land can be registered, after the normal procedures of measuring, neighbors agreeing etc..

All land in Thailand is currently being titled but it takes a very long time until they are ready.

The loan/default/court/reposses trick is to fasttrack that process, nothing more.

[David006]

Not sure you are correct when you say no title doc...when we first bought our land we thought it was without any registration, (We have found out since that it is SBK and Chanote if pending.)..the purchase needed some gov document from local tax office for the purpose of paying tax ( albeit about 80b per annum).

Having said that, your lady's method of acquiring seems less than straightforward ..?...though I do know that a lot of Thais put up their land of various titles as security on loans.

The SIL has acquired SBK land this way from defaulters although that was not the original intention.

There is some rule about not selling non titled land, maybe that is why she is intending to do what she is doing?

[likewise]

People buy, live on and sell non-Chanotte land every day, locals and farangs, it's not a big deal as long as you pay the tax on the land and register your interest in it.

Indeed, lots of land, especially agricultural land has got no chanote, mostly por to bor 5 or kos sor nor 5, which means the land is registered at the local agricultural office, taxes are paid on it, this land can be transfered to someone else without any issues ! And yes, Thais can get a loan to buy this kind of land. It's almost impossible to find land with chanote in some rural areas of the country ! Hehehe, that's why most farang pay way over the top for their precious chanote land. Mind you for building a house you are better off with chanote or nor sor sam gor tittle, but fro agriculture this is not needed and wouldn't be profitable at all.

[Khun Jean]

As a foreigner you are not allowed to own anyway, so why bother with a chanot.

[davejones]

As a foreigner you are not allowed to own anyway, so why bother with a chanot.

It's his wife that's buying the land, so I assume that she's Thai.

[Tanaka]

People buy, live on and sell non-Chanotte land every day, locals and farangs, it's not a big deal as long as you pay the tax on the land and register your interest in it.

Indeed, lots of land, especially agricultural land has got no chanote, mostly por to bor 5 or kos sor nor 5, which means the land is registered at the local agricultural office, taxes are paid on it, this land can be transfered to someone else without any issues ! And yes, Thais can get a loan to buy this kind of land. It's almost impossible to find land with chanote in some rural areas of the country ! Hehehe, that's why most farang pay way over the top for their precious chanote land. Mind you for building a house you are better off with chanote or nor sor sam gor tittle, but fro agriculture this is not needed and wouldn't be profitable at all.

This is not correct and misleading. The land you talk about is government land and cannot be sold (although this is done anyway which means the "buyer" pays for something he cannot own and can lose any moment the authorities chose to use that land for whatever purpose). It can only be transfered within a family.

[likewise]

Nope you're mistaken it with Sor Por Khor land this is not the same then the aforementioned titles ! Sor por Khor can indeed only be transferred within the family, the other titles can be transferred at the local agricultural office, not land office. I know all sounds confusing but it can be done, there a lots of people who have only por tor bor 5 land and in quite a few cases after going through the process this land got a nor sor saam. Why do I know that, because my wife owned por tor bor 5 which by now has been measured up and gotten a nor sor saam !

[RAZZELL]

Many backhanders paid to land office staff all over Thailand to upgrade the papers.

Especially in Koh Chang, Samui etc

RAZZ