Gaining Sole Custody As An Unmarried Father In Thailand

[nextmove]

I find myself in a very awkward situation. Recently my partner of 7 years was arrested and charged with fraud offences . Her mother was charged in connection with similar offences and is currently about 6 months into a 1.5 year jail term. This is expected to be reduced on the Kings birthday and she may be out by the end of the year but then she has to face two more charges which may see her go to prison again.

My big problem is that I have a daughter from the relationship and although I am listed on the birth certificate I am only recognised as the legal father here in the UK. In Thailand my daughter is seen as illegitimate .I want to go back to Thailand with our daughter to do what I can for her mother. One day if things do not go well my daughter will ask her father what he did for her mummy when she found herself in trouble and when that time comes I want her to see that I did the right thing and did not abandon her mother whatever the circumstances. I have paid for a good (I hope) lawyer. Now although my partner says that there is virtually no evidence against her I have to accept that there is a possibility that she may get a prison sentence for at least some of the accusations. Things from afar do not look too good I'm afraid. Anotherwords I'm praying for the best but prepared for the worst.

If and only if we reach that situation where does that leave me and my rights in Thailand as the sole carer and parent of our child.Could she be taken away from me and given to my partners sister or worse assuming she was out of prison her mother? Would the fact that I have been her daddy,cared for her and loved her for the 5 years since her birth and have spent the last 7 months caring for her alone in the UK count for something?

Could I go to Thai court and try and get recognised as the legitmate father without the mother present and hopefully be given sole custody under the circumstances?

Under no circumstances do I want my daughter given to her mothers Thai family.Her mother who loves her dearly would also not want this as she knows how much our daughter dotes on me,she is a daddy's girl in the truest sense of the word . Losing her mother to prison and then being taken away from me would destroy our daughter and her mother is well aware of this. Our daughter is now happily attending school in the UK. She speaks very little Thai and has only ever been accustomed to a comfortable ''Falang'' style upbringing whether that be in Thailand or the UK.

Can anybody advise what might happen or is possible in such a situation?

Many thanks.

Edited September 25, 2012 by nextmove

[Mario2008]

1 unhelpful comment and a reply to it deleted.

[Mario2008]

In Thailand you are not the legitimate father, but you can become the legitimate father. The cooperation of the mother is not required, but does makes it quicker, easier and cheaper. I hope you did get approval from the mother to take the child to the UK.

On how to gain parental rights: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/381917-how-to-gain-parental-rights-as-a-father/

Once you are the legal father, a Thai court will give you prime custody. Menaing that the child will live with you and the mother will see the child per haps a few days a week or month. But on request of the mother might order the child not to be taken out of Thailand. In that sense takng the child to Thailand will be a risk.

A Thai court will not easily give you sole parental rights. For that the mother must be a danger to the child or unable to raise the child. A lenghty jailterm could be a reason, but depends on the lenght.

Once you are the legal father, the norm is that either you or the mother takes are of the child. The child will not be placed in the hand of family.

A good lawyer regarding family law is considered isaanlawyers.

[CWMcMurray]

Would not take your daughter back to Thailand, as you are not considered the legal father in Thailand

Given this , the stakes are just too high to take the risk

If you want to help your GF , then would recommend to continue to help pay for lawyer, but would not take your daughter to Thailand unless the lawyer can also arrange for you to get a court order from Thai court legalizing you as father and giving you sole custody first (although not sure if this is even possible to arrange fr overseas )

[nextmove]

Thank you Mario -yes I did have a letter giving permission from my partner to take my child to the UK. My partner was to join us later but was subsequently arrested.

My overriding concern is that she is not taken away from me because Thailand chooses not to recognise me as the legitimate father.

If my partner received a prison sentence I do not believe there would be a problem with getting that permission again to take her back to the UK.. It is my sincere belief that my partner wants what is best for our daughter.

If worse came to worse and I had to stay in Thailand and send her to school there ,then that is what I would do.

However what I find amazing is that if hypothetically I became the legitimised father and my partner was sentenced to say 2 years plus she could have the right to stop me taking my daughter to the UK. If my livelihood is in the UK how would the Thai courts exactly expect me, her legitimised father, to provide for her over an extended period of what could be many years? Necessity might make me have to leave Thailand alone just to earn some money to provide for my child.

And if my partner is in jail,and her mother is also in in jail and her sister just doesn't want to know then who exactly would the Thai courts expect to look after my daughter ?

Hopefully common sense and the duty to do what was right would prevail or am I being too optimistic?

Edited September 26, 2012 by nextmove

[TommoPhysicist]

Stay in the UK with your daughter.

If you must come to Thailand, leave your daughter in the UK.

Why take pointless risks with your daughters future?

[nextmove]

Stay in the UK with your daughter.

If you must come to Thailand, leave your daughter in the UK.

Why take pointless risks with your daughters future?

Yes I understand the risks Tommo,

But if what Mario says is correct ,which invariably it is then:-

the worse case senario is that we will have to stay in Thailand

and the best case is I get sole custody and we can live anywhere with travel to and from Thailand freely allowing my daughter to see her mother.

Either way I get to be with with my daughter which is my major concern.

The alternative would be for us not to return to Thailand again until my daughter is a grown woman,depriving her from seeing her mother and potentially facing an international kidknapping charge when her mother was out of jail if she was so inclined to file a complaint.

Edited September 26, 2012 by nextmove

[Pormax]

A very difficult situation which unfortunately you find yourself in.

I would not hold out too much help from the Thai aurthorities because you are a farang.

I went through a process with my wife to try and adopt my wife's 14 year old neice who refused to stay with her Mother when she threw her husband out after starting an affair with the head monk of the village. Her Father could not take care of her. Both parents consented in writing to the adoption I think mainly due, not because of what the daughter wanted, but because they knew she would have a much better standard of life with my wife and I and it was one less expense for them. Anyway we decided that it would be easier just for my wife to adopt her as there was going to be a much longer delay in completing the adoption due to the UK authories having to be involved. Went to the offices where everyone signed the paper at the province head office. Told that all was in order, could see no problems and we should get acknowledgement of such in 1 month. Waited 4 months and then had a letter saying request had been refused by the head office in Bangkok as they wanted both of us to adopt so that if I wanted to take the neice to UK a visa would not be a problem. We had already stated that this would not be happening as I have no intention of going back to the UK.

If my wife was either single, divorced or married to a Thai man there would not have been a problem.

I did ask about legal guardianship for my wife so that she could sign anything neccessary if something crops up but this was a NO NO.

To me it seems the Thai aurthorites do not really care too much about the child but only want to complicate things for the farang.

I would strongly suggest you NOT bring your daughter to Thailand, however it is a difficult one because if your daughter is ever going to see her Mother then that is what you will have to do, Your wife has a criminal record and therefore unlikely to be given a visa to go to the UK.

I understand you are trying to do the right thing for the child and her mother and I applaud you for this.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Pormax

[Mario2008]

Thank you Mario -yes I did have a letter giving permission from my partner to take my child to the UK. My partner was to join us later but was subsequently arrested.

My overriding concern is that she is not taken away from me because Thailand chooses not to recognise me as the legitimate father.

If my partner received a prison sentence I do not believe there would be a problem with getting that permission again to take her back to the UK.. It is my sincere belief that my partner wants what is best for our daughter.

If worse came to worse and I had to stay in Thailand and send her to school there ,then that is what I would do.

However what I find amazing is that if hypothetically I became the legitimised father and my partner was sentenced to say 2 years plus she could have the right to stop me taking my daughter to the UK. If my livelihood is in the UK how would the Thai courts exactly expect me, her legitimised father, to provide for her over an extended period of what could be many years? Necessity might make me have to leave Thailand alone just to earn some money to provide for my child.

And if my partner is in jail,and her mother is also in in jail and her sister just doesn't want to know then who exactly would the Thai courts expect to look after my daughter ?

Hopefully common sense and the duty to do what was right would prevail or am I being too optimistic?

A Thai judge will decide in the best interest of the child. And it is unlikely they will send a child to a family member if the child is accostumed to you and you also have filed to be recognised as the legal father.

Yes, your worse case is that the child will not be allowed to leave Thailand.

[Mario2008]

To me it seems the Thai aurthorites do not really care too much about the child but only want to complicate things for the farang.

I think you are wrong. Their main intrest was the child and they wanted what was best for the child, an international adoption.

You simply cannot predict the future, in 10 years time you might decide to go back.

[Pormax]

To me it seems the Thai aurthorites do not really care too much about the child but only want to complicate things for the farang.

I think you are wrong. Their main intrest was the child and they wanted what was best for the child, an international adoption.

You simply cannot predict the future, in 10 years time you might decide to go back.

By then she would have her own life and not need to be adopted. Remember she was 14 then now 15.

At the moment I could refuse to take her in/take care of her and then there would be nobody to take care of her.

This in the child's interest? I don't think so!

[nextmove]

I also agree that Thai logic about what is ''best for the child'' is beyond the majority of western understanding. In my particular instance I had a child with my partner and went to the Amphur within about 5 days to register the birth. In the absence of any other man proclaiming to be the father the child's mother confirmed that I was the father but the lack of a piece of paper called a marriage certificate was to prove more powerful than the very woman's word who had so recently given birth to that beautiful child. Not that I had any clue about that at the time of course. It was only later that I found I had been sold the canoe without the paddles so to speak.

In effect what they were saying was... ''Sorry Mr Nextmove your child will have to be raised a ''bastard'' pending future developments .However we are happy to name you on the birth certificate as the ''father'' even though of course under Thai law our birth certificates do not always mean what they say and you are not actually the father .But don't despair Mr Nextmove not all is lost and as way of a ''consolation prize'' we are also happy to give your daughter...oh sorry the daughter of your partner your anglo saxon surname. But let us emphasise again that under Thai law you are not the father despite the fact that you are named as the father and the child shares the exact same surname as yourself. Please be assured that being named as the father and sharing the same surname as the new born child does not acknowledge you in anyway as the father and should be looked upon as no more than a remarkable coincidence ...you would be surprised at how many of those we see at the Amphur's in Thailand .Have a good day Mr Nextmove''

Where is the logic in any of this? The most important thing for a child is to have a mother and a father whether married ,unmarried ,black,white,same race,mixed race etc etc etc.

You will either be a good father or a bad father and no piece of paper is going to change that!

The only redeeming thing in all of this madness is that the most important person in the world says 4 little words on a daily basis which in the end shows these people have got it WRONG....and those words are ''I love you Daddy''

Edited September 27, 2012 by nextmove

[Mario2008]

The logic is that the birth certificate is only a claim that one is the father when not marreid, nothing more. To become the legal father you need to make extra steps, like in almost any other country.

You can at any time become the legal father of the child.

[nextmove]

The logic is that the birth certificate is only a claim that one is the father when not marreid, nothing more. To become the legal father you need to make extra steps, like in almost any other country.

You can at any time become the legal father of the child.

Well not quite any time. If you choose to stay unmarried you cannot become the legal father on the day you register your child at the Amphur with the support of the mother.That would be the most logical time for most Dad's to make a legal commitment to their child,not 7 or so years later on the official nod of your child.

For the sake of filling in an empty space any system that allows another family member to claim to be the father of a child on a legal document called a birth certificate can hardly be described as ''logical''. Call me old fashioned if you will but is that not known as incest in most parts of the world? Do the police go and visit?

Seriously though... It seems that the fact they allow just about any Tom,Dick or Harry to sign the birth certificate ultimately makes more problems for the genuine Dad's out there,even the ones that are not related!

Edited September 27, 2012 by nextmove

[TommoPhysicist]

For the sake of filling in an empty space any system that allows another family member to claim to be the father of a child on a legal document called a birth certificate can hardly be described as ''logical''. Call me old fashioned if you will but is that not known as incest in most parts of the world? Do the police go and visit?

Off topic.

The Amphur office allowed my wife to register her mother and step-father as the parents of her first child.

You can't beat that for daft!

Edited September 27, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[nextmove]

Given the concerns raised by Thommo,Pormax and CWMcMurray I would like to know peoples opinions on taking my daughter into Thailand on her British passport. We would be in Thailand until just after New Year but I understand there is no penalty for overstays for children under 14 in Thailand except maybe an overstay stamp in her passport which will only have a few months left to run anyway by January. My passport still has a non O so no problems for me.

I only say this because if my partner is still in prison then getting her permission for my daughter to travel might be difficult. Being in a situation such as this for the first time is leaving me with a lot of doubts in my mind about what could or could not happen.

Having said this I had a letter on my most recent trip to the UK and nobody asked me for it when we left the country using my daughters Thai passport. We went through immigration with a ''yes''' from my daughter confirming I was her daddy.

Any thoughts from anybody?

Thank you

[Mario2008]

Travelling on the UK passport only complictaes that your daughter needs a visa, it doesn't give any protection.

At the airport people have been asked to show that they have permisison to take a child out of the country. Their main concern is child trafficking, that is why it worked last time with just confirmation from your daughter. But sometimes they do ask to see the permission. If your child has your last name on the UK passport, it will probably no problem as they target children who are travelling with an adult who has a different last name.

[nextmove]

Travelling on the UK passport only complictaes that your daughter needs a visa, it doesn't give any protection.

At the airport people have been asked to show that they have permisison to take a child out of the country. Their main concern is child trafficking, that is why it worked last time with just confirmation from your daughter. But sometimes they do ask to see the permission. If your child has your last name on the UK passport, it will probably no problem as they target children who are travelling with an adult who has a different last name.

Thank you Mario,

I understand what you are saying but there seems to be nothing set in stone concerning this.Sometimes you get asked,sometimes not etc. I just thought that if we are both travelling as British citizens with the same name on British passports then it would attract less attention than a British father travelling with a Thai daughter. Everything went fine last time but as we are all aware immigration officials are not all the same......

I also understand that there is nothing in Thai law to stop my daughter entering on her Thai passport and leaving on her British passport although of course the immigration officer might well question why she has no entry stamp. The reason for travelling on her British passport would be that her Thai passport had less than 3 months to run. I do not believe the airline would let her board the plane under those circumstances.

[Mario2008]

That you will raise less attention when travelling with passports in which you bove have the same last name is what I said.

The fact that here Thai passport has les then 3 months on it is not important. To the airline you show both her passports, to confirm no visa is needed. At immigraiton only her paspsort of the country she exits/enters.

If she enters/leave on a Thai passport, you can join her in the immigration line for Thai paspsort holders. She will give her departure card and you give your entry card and visa verca when leaving. (The card you get on the plane).

[phuketbased]

I have been reading this and http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/381917-how-to-gain-parental-rights-as-a-father/page__st__100 with interest and i have appreciated your comments Mario2008 you seemed very well informed,

I have a similar headache myself now, I have a Memorandum of Agreement signed by the birth mother, about 5 years ago. (we have not seen since, think she lives in Europe somewhere now) which basically states categorically I am the sole guardian, child has my family name, plus uk birth cert as well as thai ( I am named on both) It has been fine for everything else, name change, Thai ID card (child is nearly 10 yrs old..But I am having problems getting a Thai passport. So my question is will going to the amphur and getting myself legally recognized be enough, to get the passport, or will I need to go down the court route?

Or is there an easier route to get him a thai passport?…or can he use a uk passport with his thai ID card example So leaves Thailand with a UK passport only, but has a thai ID card, which shows he is staying in Thailand legally. And arrives in next country as a uk citizen….?

I would appreciate your thoughts

[Mario2008]

Thai passport law states that the childs parents both must sign for the passport, unless one of the children has sole custody.

You have a memorandom of agreement, but that is not much worth in this case. It simply doesn't make you the legal father, only the court can make you the legal father and grand you sole custody. So yes, you will need to go to court.

(If the mother could be located, you could go to the amhur with mother and child and be recognised as the legal father. But probably still would have to go through court to get sole custody.)

The child can leave Thailand on the UK passport, the only thing you need to show extra is the (Thai) birth certificate to show why there is no record of her entering the country as she was born in Thailand. Sometimes checks are made to see if you have permisison of the other parent, but when the cild has your last name and says that you are indeed her father there is no problem.

[phuketbased]

Thai passport law states that the childs parents both must sign for the passport, unless one of the children has sole custody.

You have a memorandom of agreement, but that is not much worth in this case. It simply doesn't make you the legal father, only the court can make you the legal father and grand you sole custody. So yes, you will need to go to court.

(If the mother could be located, you could go to the amhur with mother and child and be recognised as the legal father. But probably still would have to go through court to get sole custody.)

The child can leave Thailand on the UK passport, the only thing you need to show extra is the (Thai) birth certificate to show why there is no record of her entering the country as she was born in Thailand. Sometimes checks are made to see if you have permisison of the other parent, but when the cild has your last name and says that you are indeed her father there is no problem.

I thought it would be the case of going to court, thank you for your thoughts,

Thats great news on being able to use a UK Passport to leave, The only thought i had that may complicate this was, when returning from holiday, He the child would get an entry stamp, in his UK passport...which then on the next time of holiday would look like over stay, Would the birth certificate plus the Child ID card still be ok for this, as above?

[Mario2008]

When returning to Thailand without a Thai passport the child will be stamped in on the UK-passport and also need a visa and extensions of stay.

Extensions of stay are however very easy, just show the Thai ID-card.

Do go to court to become the legal father and apply for sole custody. Could save a lot of headache in the future.

[phuketbased]

When returning to Thailand without a Thai passport the child will be stamped in on the UK-passport and also need a visa and extensions of stay.

Extensions of stay are however very easy, just show the Thai ID-card.

Do go to court to become the legal father and apply for sole custody. Could save a lot of headache in the future.

Yes i intent to go to court for sole custody...But why would he need a visa extension?... Could he not just enter the country as a uk tourist, and automatically become a thai national once immigration is cleared. He holds title to both full UK and full Thai nationality.?

[Mario2008]

If he enters immirgation on a foreign passport, immigration will consider him a foreigner for immigration purpose, subject to immigration regulations.

Once he has a Thai passport, he needs to leave the country on the Uk passport and return on the Thai passport.

[diddums]

If the child has your last name and you are on BC....and you have the signed document from the mother that says its ok for the child to travel with you....I believe you would have no trouble leaving the country even if it all turned pear shaped.

[joten]

I am in a very similar situation to the original post. I don't feel safe going with my kid to Thailand. I came with her permission but know she know really wants him there. Knows also that I don't want to take him there.

Is the only way to ever take him safely there to go through the courts over there.? Can that be done from UK? Has anyone not heard of an order from a UK court ensuring the child must return to the UK? The authorities here are behind me as she was very difficult and they knew of some of it.

Any comments would be highly appreciated. I also don't want my son never to see his mum or her family again, or at least for many years.

Thanks

[benalibina]

For the sake of your kid, PLAY SAFE !!!!! When you deal with people who can have different, read; selfish, morals regarding kids, never be emphatic !

I know this, too late though. For the moment at least.

[Mario2008]

I am in a very similar situation to the original post. I don't feel safe going with my kid to Thailand. I came with her permission but know she know really wants him there. Knows also that I don't want to take him there.

Is the only way to ever take him safely there to go through the courts over there.? Can that be done from UK? Has anyone not heard of an order from a UK court ensuring the child must return to the UK? The authorities here are behind me as she was very difficult and they knew of some of it.

Any comments would be highly appreciated. I also don't want my son never to see his mum or her family again, or at least for many years.

Thanks

There is no safe way, unles you have sole custody.

[joten]

Thanks for the replies. Anyone know how long sole custody (assuming it is even possible?) can take and if it can be done from the UK or only possible if i go (alone..) to Thailand. Would love to know your expereince (Benalibina) what happened how did you lose out.

It is a horrible situation however much trouble his mum was she is still his mum and being apart for years is not good for him or her. Her family are not all bad either they also would love to see him....

anyhow understand the comments and that not worth the risk but seems sad that there is nothing one can do.....for them and him...

thanks again