Appeal - Scared To Post - Need Advice

[Philbot44]

Hi recently appealed the refusal decison and would like some advice but scared to post her in case it effects the appeal

~Is there any one would could help I can PM or email the info and question too?

many thanks

Edited February 1, 2006 by Philbot44

[Mighty Mouse]

The best place to get answers/advice is in an open forum such as this.

I don't think you need to worry about be identified by anyone from your government reading a post in this forum.

Just don't mention names or be too specific with the details of your case. A general outline should be enough to get you answers and if need be, private messages to you can be sent.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The best place to get answers/advice is in an open forum such as this.

I don't think you need to worry about be identified by anyone from your government reading a post in this forum.

Just don't mention names or be too specific with the details of your case. A general outline should be enough to get you answers and if need be, private messages to you can be sent.

Great advice.

[Philbot44]

ok here goes if you think too much detail please tell me and I will remove.

Hi,

Just need a bit of advise/hope or whatever you may want to call it!!

My g/f recently had an interview this year for fiancé visa and was refused.

The reason for refusal was that they say she not know me and her intentions were not to marry etc. and that insufficient documentary evidence to show contact during the times I was back home (if you need the exact words I can email them to you).

Now I have since got hold of a copy of the interview notes and as far as I am aware (I should know myself) she had answered all the questions about my life in my country correctly so not sure how they can say she not know about my life here they grilled her as she was in there for 50 minutes too

As for the evidence of contact in the 8 months I have known here I have been in Thailand for almost half of this time which if they had checked the visa stamps from my passport they may have realised this too.

The final thing that annoyed me most was their comments about lack of documentary evidence to show contact. They asked her for her mobile number which she provided and then asked her how we keep in contact. She replied by phone SMS’s and email (her idea of email being web cam chat on msn) I also provide all my mobile and landline bills which showed I rang her 4 or 5 times a day for an average time of 2 hrs per day.

However all this was a waste of time as we assumed that the ECO would understand that the number on my phone bill were special cheap rate numbers to call Thailand because they proceeded to ask my g/f why the numbers on the phone bill did not match he mobile number. She tried to explain but the ECO reported her response as "No Reply"?

We had already submitted about 2" deep of evidence and thought anymore would be far too much, as usual, hard to decide what is right or wrong when there are no real guidelines of what they really require as evidence.... They also asked for copies of electronic emails? We never send them, as now it’s so cheap to ring so why would anyone want to send emails when you can be talking directly to your partner??

We did write hand letters to each other which were provide at the interview, these were sent when we sent gifts to each other using the postal system I sent 3 to her and she 3 to me, birthday cards, CD gifts and even gifts for my children’s birthday. All of which were supported with envelopes & postmarks.

Point being do we really have to have electronic emails to prove contact when we talk on the phone 2 hours a day??

There was also considerable evidence showing 3 or 4 SMS’s sent daily for all the time I was home.

Hence we decided to appeal this decision and have recently re-sent the phone bills and other SMS evidence with additional supplementary evidence from the companies providing the services for the phone numbers and SMS PC to mobile company, which we used, and further extracts from MSN conversations chats

We decided to send this directly to BKK as we had heard there is a good chance it would be reversed more quickly and avoid having to go to trial?

So to my questions?

1. Is there a good chance it will be reversed?

2. How does it work, does the ECM look at this and decide the ECO may have been a bit harsh and over rule the decision?

3. How long will they take to decide?

4. Do you think they are monitored on targets i.e. number of appealed decisions/ number referred to trail/numbers lost / won etc.?

What I am trying to say is if now its very obvious that we have had a great deal of contact would it be in their interest to overrule as leaving it to go to trail is just more waste of the tax payers money or are these Judges also funded from monies obtained from visa application fees hence the reason they are so expensive now?

Yes I’m angry, and I’m sorry but that refusal broke her heart that day I know I was there waiting when she came out of the Embassy, these girls try so hard to do there best and she did so well. Makes me wonder why she still wants to come to my country when they get treated like that by one of our so-called officials!!!

[FlyingDutchman]

... I can't answer you, but I wish you both be best of luck ! ...

[Mighty Mouse]

Which embassy are you dealing with?

You have known each other for only eight months. The case officer obviously doubts the true intentions of your girlfriend.

You need to create a solid foundation for marriage, and that means taking things step by step. (small steps at first)

It would appear from your post that your g/f has never been with you to your country. The case officer would need to know that she has visited with you and seen what you are offering her in marriage.

She would not be able to give any details of your home and work affairs unless she has seen and experienced them first hand.

Therefore it would be advisable to apply for a tourist visa first. Take her home for six months, develop your relationship, allow her to meet your family and friends.

Once that has been done, your family are in a position to provide written support to your embassy regarding your relationship.

Have you visited and bonded with her family?

Do you have dated photographs of this meeting?

Lack of documentary evidence re contact means what it says. You need to print out your emails to each other and attach them to your application. Tourist visa application too.

Emails cost nothing to send. Send two a day.

Internet chats cannot be recorded and so don't count towards documentary evidence.

Photos, photos, photos and more photos are required, dated if possible. Take them in her town, take them in your city, take them with family members and friends, just keep taking them.

Visits to licenced clubs in your city, keep the club sign in documents as evidence of you socialising together.

Visits to zoos, theatre etc. anywhere that has entrance tickets. Keep the tickets, stick them on a presentation board with titles explaining time, date of you being together.

When apart, write a letter to her each week. Have her save them for presentation.

Keep your telephone records as you have already done. Ensure that the numbers recorded on your phone bill match her telephone number.

I doubt that your appeal will be successful, (I hope I'm wrong) so don't build up your hopes too much.

I assume you prepared a detailed letter or statutory declaration to the embassy outlining how your relationship began and how it has developed over the eight months. You need to convince them that it is genuine and on-going.

It would seem that you both failed to be convincing enough.

If your appeal does fail, don't give up hope, apply for a tourist visa. These are generally much easier to obtain than a fiance visa.

You will still need to convince the embassy that your relationship is genuine, so start gathering evidence....as much as you can.

Make sure that her employment record is strong

Read through the other posts in this forum for some more ideas.

Keep us informed of your progress. Good luck.

[FlyingDutchman]

---

Internet chats cannot be recorded and so don't count towards documentary evidence.

---

Yes, they can ... sorry to say you are wrong ...

[Philbot44]

It is the UK Embassy

Yes she never been with me to my country, she can give details of my home she has even talked with my children on webcam and I have explained my job to her using pictures albeit hard to explain a plumbing gas job

I beleive appling for a tourist visa now will just make matters even worse

I have visited her family many times and we provided pictures at the interview along with many other pictures of where we have been together on holiday.

Who is to say that you need 2 emails a day where does this measure come from am I suppose to make emails just so I can get a visa like I said I have real evidence to show conversation of 2 hours each day?

We also gave them lots of ticket stubs of where we had been together on holiday

Why would I want to apply for a tousit visa I could just as easy get married in Thailand now and re-apply and as for the appeal have I now just got to prove the contact using my supplementary evidence?

Isnt it just as difficult in a court for an ECO to prove what they have said in the refusal now that they have seen the further evidence of contact?

Why do you doubt the success of the appeal is the success rate as poor as that of the interview too? My friend appealed 2 years ago and he won his case no problem?

Not what was wishing to hear but thanks for the advice.. I will keep you posted..

Edited February 1, 2006 by Philbot44

[GU22]

Without seeing the exact wording of the refusal notice, it is difficult to comment on the rights and wrongs of the refusal. However, from what you have said it does seem as if this was an incorrect decision by the ECO.

The first thing you should do is contact the embassy and ask for the case to be reviewed by the ECM. If this does not procure the desired result then you have to decide whether to appeal or reapply.

Appeals can be a lengthy and expensive process, with no guarantee of success. Remember, the appeal will decide if the ECO made the correct decision based upon the information available to the ECO at the time. If the evidence provided with the application was incomplete or failed to prove your fiancé's case, then the appeal could very well go against you. Before embarking down this road I strongly recommend that you speak to a qualified immigration solicitor in the UK.

You can find one via either;

The Law Society of England and Wales

The Law Society of Scotland

or

The Law Society of Northern Ireland

depending on whereabouts in the UK you live.

Best of luck with this.

[Philbot44]

I would be happy to send the exact wording if you are interested?

Now Im even more confused? why does the appeal process invite me to provide additional /supplementary evidence to prove that the ECO decision was wrong?

Yet you are saying that if the evidence was not there at the interview it is not much use at the appeal?

As I have said I made an assumption (as it turns out now a bad one) that the ECO would be well aware of the methods used for contacting people in Thailand. An explanation was provided with my bills but it seems this wasnt beleived otherwise they would of not asked the question why the numbers were different. I am sure that the ECO family back in the UK would be using something similiar and ALL ECO's are fully aware of this fact.

It seems to me they were just looking for an excuse to refuse hence the 50 minute interview why such a long time? Seems they couldnt trip her up with the questions so decided to opt for a reason by pretending not to understand what most people would call common and very popular international communication methods.

Once again if you like a copy of the decision I would be more than happy to email it to you.

O and by the way the appeal has already gone I am not intending getting legal help if it goes to court I will be there to explain.

I have asked about the lenght of time and am told the Embassy have 11 weeks to respond to the appeal to the UK office.

After this the hearing can take up to a max of 8 weeks to find a date in court so max 19 weeks.

You suggest try again not sure what you mean try again for finace visa or get married and try again? This could also take 6 months and still get refused another £260 down the pan.

The appeal is free although uses up much more of my time and after the last interview I do not feel like trying again becos it does seem so hit and miss as to who you get at the interview or if its raining on the day?

Perhaps maybe more people should appeal and maybe then the process might improve?

Has there been any successes? please can people post there experiences of such

thanks again for your comments any more please?

[the scouser]

Hi Philbot,

You should certainly pursue the appeal. However, in the interim, you should write to the Entry Clearance Manager at the embassy explaining why you believe the visa officer's decision to be flawed and asking that she overturn the decision.

I've had a lot of experience with the current ECM and she never overturns the ECOs' decisions but, rather, sends out a stock letter saying that the applicant should appeal. However, that is not the end of the line. You then write to UK Visas saying what a waste of space the ECM is as she has singularly failed to address the matters you raised in your correspondence and they can then instruct Bangkok to issue the visa prior to any appeal being heard.

Success does depend upon the circumstances of a particular case but the alternative is to wait approximately a year for the appeal to be heard.

If you want guidance writing the letter, then by all means send me a PM.

Scouse.

[Philbot44]

umm well maybe the topic title is misleading .. Im saying Im scared to post in the forum .. becos I have in fact already posted the appeal!!

I have sent you a few PM's scouser hope you can see where I am upto with all of this.

I realise the appeal process is a long wait (probably 6 months) but I am great beleive in principles and there is little else I feel I can do except start now sending emails to each other save them all and wait another 6 months and try again.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

umm well maybe the topic title is misleading .. Im saying Im scared to post in the forum .. becos I have in fact already posted the appeal!!

I have sent you a few PM's scouser hope you can see where I am upto with all of this.

I realise the appeal process is a long wait (probably 6 months) but I am great beleive in principles and there is little else I feel I can do except start now sending emails to each other save them all and wait another 6 months and try again.

Good luck old son

[Rj 81]

Philbot, I hope it works out for you and your fiancee. Best of luck to you.

The issue with email evidence is bothering me, I too use a cheap rate call line to speak to my fiancee everyday. The only time I have sent email is to provide her with a link or say send a picture ect.. We don't use it as a means of communication, why would anyone when you can talk on the phone for 2p per minute?

I really hope this doesn't come into play in our application.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Rj 81

[the scouser]

It's the visa officer grasping at straws. Unless he has any indication that the access numbers on a telephone bill weren't used to call the applicant, he's on a hiding to nothing in court.

Scouse.

[saeb]

Hi, sorry about your problems with the embassy and hope that you get it sorted out happily.

In my case I found that the only real criteria they required for a fiancee visa were these:

1. Proof of sufficient income and the ability to keep your fiancee for the initial six months before she could begin to work.

2. Proof that you had a home (flat or house) which was in you the sponsors sole name - rented or bought. (In my case it was rented).

3. Proof that you had spent time together. This is a sort of an all encompassing 'get out' for them.

In my case we had lived together for two years together in BKK and could prove it.

4. In the case of being back in the U.K. proof of contact. Cheap rate phone cards do actually count as I kept all of mine and added them to the file - print off e-mails from and to, and off course old fashioned letters to each other are very useful.

5.A letter from your employer. Or if self employed details of your company and turnover.

6. Letters from responsible people who know of your relationship.

(I found it very, very helpful to write to my M.P. in advance and state my fears that there may be a refusal as the Embassy has had a reputation for a fairly high handed attitude).

7. If your family have had any contact at all with your fiancee this is worth a lot. Maybe some of your family on holiday met some of her family and you have pics?.

8. And, in the interview did she choose to speak English or Thai?.

Certainly, candidates who choose to speak in English have far shorter interviews than those who choose Thai.

9. Does she have a proveable education and work history?.

It can seem like a convoluted process but it boils down really to , an address, an income, and knowledge of each other.

Make the file nice and neat and make sure it's nice and thick!.

The interview for my missus lasted less than five minutes and this is what she was asked:

Did she want the interview to be conducted in English or Thai?.

What did I do?.

Where did we live together in BKK previously?.

What did she want to do in the U.K.?. (Be with me and work when she was allowed to).

That was it. Visa granted.

Maybe it would be best to get your M.P. involved with your appeal - they do actually get involved.

(I know a number of guys who have gone this route and in all cases bar one it was useful ; The one was some guy who met a girl in Pattaya one week and tried to get her a visa the following week!)

Good luck and do persevere.

[Philbot44]

thanks for your concerns

Please let me say they had no problems in proving sponsor funding and accomodaton

Now Proof of time together .. umm well as I said known her 8 months and spent almost 4 of them in Thailand with her gave them all the stubs flights etc.. at the interview along with all the pictures too o and yes seen her family too not just parents but sister and husband went to disco and fishing also with them

Proof in the Uk I have spent an absolute fortune keeping in touch with my fiancee as I know how difficult is is for us both when so far apart and as Ive said they didnt believe me about the special rate calls on my phone bills (but in my opinion I think you make a woman feel 100 times better on the phone than an email would, but looks like ECO's thin emails are the way to go for a good relationship?)

As for old fasion letters hehe well not really old fasion, if you send a gifts to someone its only natural to include a letter too dont you think? but our old fasion letters were just sumed up as a few letters sent to each other, sad thing is the ECO probably never even read them!!

Im not sure about the need for letters from responsible person(s) who know about my relationship? do you mean my parents or maybe my children? yes who would the embassy consider responsible people good question? If you wanted a passport I think I remeber you had to ask your doctor or a policeman. The fact of the matter is I am a responsible person and they should be able to asertain that too..

Why would I write to my MP in advance thinking that Im going to get refused? althought I never thought that the process was a formality I did actually believe that our Embassy would treat all application fairly. Besides if an MP had to intervene at such an early stage it would only mean that the entire process is indeed flawed. As for the high hand atttude we will never know about what goes on behind the scenes in the Embassy no doubt one day an X employee will write a best seller about it and Il buy it, because it will be a dam good read, along with the other 0.0004 % of Uk citizens who have the pleasure of having to use the Bangkok Embassy (thats the problem we are such a minority)

Where do you get your facts from about the language choosen? yes sure if you choose English it will be shorter simply because it not need to be translated 2 ways?

The fact about what language to use is only a question as to how comfortable she is about her English.

My file was neat and thick but they choose to pretend that they could not find anything and kept asking my gf to find particular things. For example I had about 8 A4 size prints with about 10 pictures on each of us in Thailand together!! Now when you think, they have access to this stuff before the interview then why would they ask my G/f why we not have any pictures together and during the interview had to ask for the documentation back to find this info for them. Seems if they want to be difficult they can & will be ok.

I find it amazing that you say ur g/f was asked the Q's below

***************

The interview for my missus lasted less than five minutes and this is what she was asked:

Did she want the interview to be conducted in English or Thai?.

What did I do?.

Where did we live together in BKK previously?.

What did she want to do in the U.K.?. (Be with me and work when she was allowed to).

That was it. Visa granted.

****************

reason being:-

What did you do? Not very hard Q lets face it unless you have a techy job and she not that way inclinded

Where u live together in BKK - Not hard either Im sure you gave them the evidence before hand

what did she want to do in the UK? what type of Q is that?

Im glad you got your visa and good luck to you my friend but did they want to go home early that day or something?

Lets hope one day the entire process is much more clearly defined then everybody recieves the same justice

[GU22]

Certainly, candidates who choose to speak in English have far shorter interviews than those who choose Thai.

My wife chose to be interviewed in Thai, and her interview lasted less than 5 minutes. Having said that, if the applicant's English is up to it then I would recommend having the interview in English to eliminate the possibility of mistranslations by the interpreter.

Maybe it would be best to get your M.P. involved with your appeal - they do actually get involved.

A reference from your MP would serve no purpose unless s/he knows you personally. Indeed, your MP shouldn't give you a reference if they don't! Getting your MP involved on a 'professional' basis may help. but remember most MP's have no more knowledge of the immigration rules than the average layman, and certainly an MP cannot influence the findings of an appeal panel in any way (unless he's David Blunkett! ).

Philbot44,

I owe you an apology, I said earlier

Remember, the appeal will decide if the ECO made the correct decision based upon the information available to the ECO at the time.

This used to be the case, but I have recently discovered that appellants are now allowed to introduce new evidence. Mind you, this is anecdotal from someone who recently had a successful appeal, I've not seen anything official.

Best of luck.

[Philbot44]

Its ok Gn22 no problem yes the appeal form actively encourages you to provide further evidence when you send the appeal says something like " please indicate what was used at interview and what you now provide to help support this evidence"

Which is why its so frustrating, if it was crystal clear what was acceptable or not life would be so much easier for everybody im sure theey could provide more info on what is required to prove contact however if I had taken this evidence to the interview with the other evidence it would of been another 2" thick.

[GU22]

......if it was crystal clear what was acceptable or not life would be so much easier for everybody im sure theey could provide more info on what is required to prove contact......

Every case is different and as such each has to be treated on it's own merits. "What supporting documents should I include with my application?" gives general guidance.

I am convinced that in the majority of cases (maybe as high as 95%) the ECOs get it right. But, as discussed at length elsewhere, they are only human and so can make mistakes. I know that this is no consolation to those like you who suffer from an ECOs mistake. From what you have posted I'd say that yours is a case of ECO error, and wish you every success with the appeal.

If there was a rigid list of evidence that must be provided in every case then this would leave the ECO with no discretion, and far more people would be unjustly refused than are at present.

[saeb]

Hi Philbott44,

Valid points however, 'did they want to go home early that day?'

Errr....they go home early every day.

The language thing is important I think and this is based on my experiences of living

in BKK full time for 9 years and a couple of years of recent spending 3-4 months a year there.

For various reasons I was in and out of the Brit Embassy as I was with most of Embassies / Consulates in BKK & got to see at first hand the different ways in which things seemed to get done.

(For sheer bloody minded rudeness the U.S. Embassy takes first prize - for being polite, laid back and friendly - the Portugese).

My job is technical and my missus could at least give an overview of it although she would not be in the least interested in the specific technical aspects.

From meeting many, many, many, Brits who had made visa applications for their Fiancee's I stand by the fact that more of those interviewed in Thai language were refused and that the interviews took longer - of course there are criteria that will be applied and whilst seeming unfair, there is a form of logic there. If say you are at work every day and your partner speaks no English or minimal English how is she supposed to communicate in, for instance, Glasgow, Liverpool, London?.

We forget that people in general moderate their English when in Thailand.

And of course - if she cannot speak reasonable English or you cannot speak reasonable Thai how can an ECO believe that you have a meaningful relationship and will live together in what is an alien culture to the applicant?. (Sorry, but these are observations made over a number of years).

Getting your M.P. involved is useful. Over the years there have been so many letters in the English Language publications in BKK about the seeming arbitrary issuance of visas that this in itself would be a valid reason. How many Brits have you met over the years complaining about refusals and or treatment?.

And of course - your M.P. gets his or her salary from your taxes and he or she is your elected representative to represent issues that concern you. In your appeal I would absolutely 100% have my M.P. involved.

Don't forget, it was not too many years ago that a member of staff at the Brit Embassy was removed through a visa scam (sent to an 'inactive post' maybe?) and through the early and mid 90's they had that awful woman who worked there who treated every Thai woman as though they were something yucky stuck to her shoe. She retired and there was rejoicing......

"What did she want to do?". Strange question yes - but it was asked. Perhaps they were just wondering if she would work legally?. Again, there is a valid reason for this - go into virtually any Thai restaurant in the U.K. and if you speak Thai well enough ask them if they pay tax and N.I.

Mostly it's cash jobs.

Do a survey of any job agency in the U.K. - you will find every nationality on their books except Thais?. Why?. They have to be paid through a bank and pay tax & N.I.

I speak from considerable experience here having had a period helping out with a major agency and being responsible for the foreign staff on their books.

This is no criticism of Thais in general it is just the way they are.

'Responsible people' - well, when you go for a job interview then you may well be asked for character references right?. Same thing.

Thai women are brought into the U.K. through false pretences and a goodly number of them end up in massage parlours / brothels - that is a fact and check any provincial newspaper in the U.K. for ads for 'Thai massage'. Even Private Eye run ads for a Thai marriage agency.

Sorry for the length of the reply and I do hope it works out o.k. for you.

[Rj 81]

That is complete bullshit mate, I know 5 Thai girls in the UK and not one of them works cash in hand. I'm not denying some don't, but every nationality is at it, including our own! Don't just single out Thai's like that.

And if you did go into a Thai restaurant and ask them do they work cash in hand, if they were doing, they wouldn't say so would they, er hello.

Your talking broken biscuits.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Rj 81

[saeb]

Hi Rj - I speak from personal experience and have been all down that street ; Some Thais told my missus it was 'ok' to work for cash in complete contravention of her entry clearance. It transpired that NOT ONE person in that particular restaurant paid NI or TAX and that if nothing else invalidates any health and safety legislation. In addition all the staff in that particular restaurant were housed in properties owned by the owner (Thai) and that no council tax was ever paid by any of them. Nobody likes council tax - but it's there and not a lot we can do about it.

Another Thai restaurant, same place - we had a young Thai lady rent a room off us she was to study a six month English course - her Thai boyfriend was supposedly studying something at Uni. In her passport

it specifically said 'no work'. Boyfriend says it's o.k. - in a matter of days she was working 35-40 hours a week for cash.

First restaurant : I went to the owner and told him that my missus was not going to have anything to do with his setup. His highly mature response was to say; " Next time you go to Thailand you will have a problem". I took someone with me and this was witnessed.

Another point - they were all working for well below minimum wage and were not aware of any such thing.

It is not broken biscuits at all mate - immigration do go around restaurants (and others) and they do check. No way was I having my wife slung out of the country because some turkey said it 'was alright'.

Sure, lots of people are at it and that is up to them and they run the same risks.

Yes, I have met a number of Thais who worked perfectly honestly but they were the exception to the rule as Thais will always gravitate towards other Thais abroad.

Like I said about employment agencies - just ask.

[silomfan]

You should have written to the ECM first to allow the case to be re-considered , even tho they mostly side with their staff . Its usually a farce , a pretence of fairness, but it did work once in my case years ago when they had a fair ECM for a while.

Appeals are now much quicker than before as the papers are sent direct rather than through the Home Office first. Can be as short as three months wait now, although it depends on how quick Bangkok send the papers. The time starts to tick when they are received by the AIT in the UK.

If you feel you have suffered an injustice , then had you used a solicitor for your appeal, he or she could have mentioned taking it to "judicial review" in the grounds of appeal letter. That would, according to the Diplomatic Services Procedures that the Embassy have to follow, have ensured that the papers would have been dispatched very quickly to the AIT and mentioned immediately to UK Visas, as judicial reviews can take place within a few weeks. They are very expensive but are one of the few things that does frighten the Embassies. I was about to go to Judicial Review when my partners visa was , suddenly, approved amazingly quickly .

You have nothing to lose by getting your MP involved, and do write to the manager at UK Visas. They do actually get back to you within 21 days , often sooner, and can offer useful advice . I have said it before , but it is none the less true because of that ...complain and complain and complain to the authorities (MP, UK Visas, ECM , and write directly to Tony McNulty , minister for immigration SPECIFICALLY complaining about the Bangkok Embassy.) Common sense tells you that if enough people complain about the Bangkok Embassy , and its not difficult to do that is it !, then action will be taken. Not because they want to make it fairer, oh no, but because its making their lives difficult to be constantly occupied with complaints about the visa lottery in Bangkok.

And another thing, it makes you feel better !!

SILOMFAN

[Jersey_UK]

Hi Rj - I speak from personal experience and have been all down that street ; Some Thais told my missus it was 'ok' to work for cash in complete contravention of her entry clearance. It transpired that NOT ONE person in that particular restaurant paid NI or TAX and that if nothing else invalidates any health and safety legislation. In addition all the staff in that particular restaurant were housed in properties owned by the owner (Thai) and that no council tax was ever paid by any of them. Nobody likes council tax - but it's there and not a lot we can do about it.

It is not broken biscuits at all mate - immigration do go around restaurants (and others) and they do check. No way was I having my wife slung out of the country because some turkey said it 'was alright'.

I must confess that if I had been threatened by some F#ckwit then I would certainly have reported his activities to all and sundry apart from any reasons of "principle", I would effectively be subsidising HIS business if his workers are not paying their NI and Tax / no council tax. I am SURE he is also not paying his way also.

May well have done it anyway without the threats.........It ain't Thailand. F#ck him

[the scouser]

Just a point about judical review. Whilst every decision taken by a public authority is open to scrutiny by the courts, a judge will generally refuse to conduct a judical review until all other legal channels have been exhausted: in this case, once the appeal has been heard and dismissed.

Scouse.

[Philbot44]

You should have written to the ECM first to allow the case to be re-considered , even tho they mostly side with their staff . Its usually a farce , a pretence of fairness, but it did work once in my case years ago when they had a fair ECM for a while.

umm trouble here is the time only 28 days to appeal and im in uk mail is slow so wating 21 days for them to reply is a bit risky

Appeals are now much quicker than before as the papers are sent direct rather than through the Home Office first. Can be as short as three months wait now, although it depends on how quick Bangkok send the papers. The time starts to tick when they are received by the AIT in the UK.

Yes Ive heard this too and am told they have 19 weeks to respond to the appeal then the AIT can take up to 8 weeks to book a court room

If you feel you have suffered an injustice , then had you used a solicitor for your appeal

Cost me enough money already without lining the pockets of these people too. If it goes to court I am quite capable of stating the facts I doubt the judge is there to trip people up lets face it we are not criminals

You have nothing to lose by getting your MP involved, and do write to the manager at UK Visas. They do actually get back to you within 21 days , often sooner, and can offer useful advice

Can you be a bit more specific about the useful advice that will be offered by this person?

Common sense tells you that if enough people complain about the Bangkok Embassy , and its not difficult to do that is it !, then action will be taken. Not because they want to make it fairer, oh no, but because its making their lives difficult to be constantly occupied with complaints about the visa lottery in Bangkok.

And another thing, it makes you feel better !!

Totaly agree on above and I think they should provide statistics on things such as no's of compliants time to answer etc.. just like most people at work have to live with in the UK

Yes accountability that would be useful at the end of the day its jsut a job like most jobs that can be measured and recorded to see if the person is working well!!

MAybe they already have targets love to know what they are????

Yes makes me feel better too!!

Edited February 4, 2006 by Philbot44

[saeb]

Silomfan is quite right - there are ways to have a decision reviewed, but it is often difficult which route to choose.

I found that writing to my MP in advance of the application and specifically mentioning my fears about the seeming arbitrary nature of the BKK Embassy were acted upon.

He wrote a number of letters (3) back to me confirming his interest and had spoken to UK Visas about my concerns. I have no idea or not if his interest helped - but the letters were included in the application file.

I know one guy who has hade tremendous problems getting his fiancee into Germany and that used to be one of the easiest!.

I must confess that if I had been threatened by some F#ckwit then I would certainly have reported his activities to all and sundry apart from any reasons of "principle", I would effectively be subsidising HIS business if his workers are not paying their NI and Tax / no council tax. I am SURE he is also not paying his way also.

May well have done it anyway without the threats.........It ain't Thailand. F#ck him

It was a 'face' thing. How juvenile. I spoke to a Thai woman after that who worked with a pal of mine and it appears that said numpty is into a lot more than employing cheap labour.

I didn't want to make any problem for his staff after all they were nice people - but at least they know the score now. I wrote to the Home Office on behalf of two of them and who now had the right to reside here. I thought that that was decent of the government. They both now have real jobs and are much happier and less worried people.

The owner?. Heh-heh.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

It is the UK Embassy

Yes she never been with me to my country, she can give details of my home she has even talked with my children on webcam and I have explained my job to her using pictures albeit hard to explain a plumbing gas job

I beleive appling for a tourist visa now will just make matters even worse

I have visited her family many times and we provided pictures at the interview along with many other pictures of where we have been together on holiday.

Who is to say that you need 2 emails a day where does this measure come from am I suppose to make emails just so I can get a visa like I said I have real evidence to show conversation of 2 hours each day?

We also gave them lots of ticket stubs of where we had been together on holiday

Why would I want to apply for a tousit visa I could just as easy get married in Thailand now and re-apply and as for the appeal have I now just got to prove the contact using my supplementary evidence?

Isnt it just as difficult in a court for an ECO to prove what they have said in the refusal now that they have seen the further evidence of contact?

Why do you doubt the success of the appeal is the success rate as poor as that of the interview too? My friend appealed 2 years ago and he won his case no problem?

Not what was wishing to hear but thanks for the advice.. I will keep you posted..

Why don't you apply through an experienced lawyer? They can keep you right, tell you what documents to bring, what to submit, etc. They are not very expensive and can save a heap of cash.

[silomfan]

Just a point about judical review. Whilst every decision taken by a public authority is open to scrutiny by the courts, a judge will generally refuse to conduct a judical review until all other legal channels have been exhausted: in this case, once the appeal has been heard and dismissed.

Scouse.

Two points here...

firstly, the mention of judicial review in a solicitors letter to the Embassy is, according to the Diplomatic Services Protocol, supposed to lead to the matter being referred to UK Visas and also if it appears likely that the applicant has a case, then they will/must prepare the papers quickly becuase it can go to review in a couple of weeks and they must be prepared otherwise they risk losing by default.

secondly, if a decision can be seen as manifestly unfair it can be taken to judicial review and will be accepted by the judge. It doesn't matter that it hasn't gone to appeal if there is a prima facie case for injustice. Of course you must have a strong case to start with.

SILOMFAN