Meeting With Monks

[Several]

Pansa is nearly over and its got me thinking, this three month rain season is a time when monks are supposed to remain in one monastery. Originally this was to prevent the monks destroying rice farmers crops by walking over them in their travels and to stay in one place for a while. Here in Thailand the prevailing idea seems to be that monks should remain in a temple most of the time, but this may be making us seem elitist. Whenever I do go out for visa runs or even just crossing the road to the shop someone will usually want to talk to me. Where do I come from, why did I become a monk etc. The few westerners I meet are usually interested too and like to talk to me as they feel the Thai monks are somewhat unapproachable. There is also decline in the number of new monks and as in the west increasing numbers of laypeople are becoming disillusioned with or even hostile towards religion. Should we as monks be getting out there more and giving people who, for whatever reason do not come to temple, more human contact? And do any laypeople feel they would like to meet with monks and talk face to face?

[rockyysdt]

Difficult questions S.

Ultimately, why does someone become a monk?

For me it would be:

• Removing oneself from the distractions of daily personal life.
  
• Acess to experienced teacher/s.
  
• Dedication of ones time/resource.
  
• Support (abode/food).
  

What drives one to desire this path in the first place?

Edited October 21, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Yes, the most important factors. However I like what Khalil Gilbran says in The Prophet about spending some time in the mountains and some in town. If I gain anything from practice then perhaps that can help someone along the way.

[rockyysdt]

Yes, the most important factors. However I like what Khalil Gilbran says in The Prophet about spending some time in the mountains and some in town. If I gain anything from practice then perhaps that can help someone along the way.

Yes, life as a permanent recluse does sound un Buddhist.

What better way to practice the "Four Imeasurables' than out amongst the people.

• Metta
  
• Karuna
  
• Mudita and
  
• Upekkha
  

Edited October 21, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

This why the duty and practice of going out on alms-round is so important. It shows the people the monks, out amongst them, not just sitting in temples awaiting offerings. Showing humility by going barefoot, practicing mindfulness whilst walking slowly with eyes downcast.

Although monks do get given food, the main purpose of alms-round is to be a visible example to the people and give them the opportunity to overcome selfishness by giving.

To not go on alms-round because one suspects the community is poor is to misunderstand the meaning of Bindhabaht and deny the people the opportunity to see the monks they support and have the chance to make merit.

[rockyysdt]

This why the duty and practice of going out on alms-round is so important. It shows the people the monks, out amongst them, not just sitting in temples awaiting offerings. Showing humility by going barefoot, practicing mindfulness whilst walking slowly with eyes downcast.

Although monks do get given food, the main purpose of alms-round is to be a visible example to the people and give them the opportunity to overcome selfishness by giving.

To not go on alms-round because one suspects the community is poor is to misunderstand the meaning of Bindhabaht and deny the people the opportunity to see the monks they support and have the chance to make merit.

Undoubtedly, alms is most important, not only for the Monks who practice it (humility), but also for the community who learn to overcome selfishness.

However it is a fineline and due to "human nature" (greed & delusion) open to abuse.

At my mundane level of awareness I felt I could see a level of "lacking in humility", at one of the talks given by a leading Monk to the leity at a Monastery up country.

Whilst speaking h picked up on a new farang amongst the audience and enquired on my origin.

From that moment on, he chose to deliver his talk in English.

He focused on speaking about trips to Sydney where he and his group would travel to exchange views with Australian Monks.

I couldn't help but feel that this community provided everything that these Monks could wish for:

Rambling wooded countryside.

Many buildings and kutis.

Considerable donated funds (cash).

Travel and medical expenses.

Hierarchy of management ensuring the smooth running of this organisation.

Rather than being steeped in humility, I saw a group of very healthy looking Monks with everything at their disposal, not only to sustain their bodies, but to allow them all that they desired, including international travel.

I'd imagine it's a fine line that these Monks must tread to ensure they don't succumb to the ego such a lifestyle can bring.

Please understand, that this was what my conditioned awareness saw.

Edited October 27, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Several]

I agree with both of you. We here don't do pintabaht for exactly the reasons stated by Fred, and I think it would be better if we did go. Not only to increase contact with the locals but to reduce the amount of time spent on some very un-monklike work going on. My meditation and study is frequently disturbed by machinery. I've stopped working so much as we always seem to end up breaking vinaya in some way. The excuse is that work aquires merit, but merit is not an enlightenment factor so I don't really care. Sometimes the aquisition of merit seems like filling some metaphysical bank account to make life wonderful. Its irrelevant. We should be working to go beyond good and bad and often thise with too much good fortune are so distracted by their favourable circumstance that they never work to improve themselves.

This is kind of getting at what Rocky is saying too. Many monks seem to be cash and other tawaii oriented. I'm told its worse in the big cities, but I'm not so sure. A certain monk here likes to quote the cash value of everything. He told me how much roof slates to repair 'my' kuti cost. I'm a guest, its not mine. We were given sushi one morning, 200 baht a pop according to him. Even when we drive he points out the values of cars and property we pass. I don't speak much Thai but I know numbers and when I hear him talking nine times out of ten its about money. I realise we need it for various necessities, but we also need toilet paper and we don't obsess over that. Its a shame, I know, and it gives those who dislike Buddhism ammunition. There are many decent monks who focus on Dhamma though and show obvious detachment from material aquisitions. I guess the old saying is true, you cannot serve God and Mammon.

[Thaddeus]

I don't speak much Thai but I know numbers and when I hear him talking nine times out of ten its about money. I realise we need it for various necessities, but we also need toilet paper and we don't obsess over that. Its a shame, I know, and it gives those who dislike Buddhism ammunition. There are many decent monks who focus on Dhamma though and show obvious detachment from material aquisitions. I guess the old saying is true, you cannot serve God and Mammon.

Number 1, any monk talking about material wealth in anything other than a negative material fashion, isn't a monk.

Number 2, no one needs toilet paper.

Number 3, The words Buddhism and ammunition should not be used in the same sentence, ever.

Number 4. Mammon, I was tempted to say good god, but I'll tone it down to good grief.

[Jawnie]

It all depends on motivation, the motivation of the monk. What is the motiviation for getting out there and meeting people, for talking about money, for recieving alms, etc.? Is it simply a distraction or following an attachment? Or is it from compassion and the genuine concern for others and for dharma practice? Whether these things are harmful or beneficial relies on the motivation of the monk.

[fabianfred]

Alms-round is described in Thai as 'Bindhabaht prord sat' ....this mean going out to show compassion for all beings (all the 31 realms of samsara.) All beings still not reaching Ariya state are to be pitied. Giving the people the chance to give to the monks enables them to make merit, and then share it with other beings by chanting or pouring water...this is especially beneficial to any preta beings around.

Sometimes the sight of a monk will cause a person to stop and think, where there is violence happening, physical or verbal. I have seen householders arguing loudly in the early morning and then stop to 'wai' a passing monk, showing embarrassment about their show of temper.

[Several]

I don't speak much Thai but I know numbers and when I hear him talking nine times out of ten its about money. I realise we need it for various necessities, but we also need toilet paper and we don't obsess over that. Its a shame, I know, and it gives those who dislike Buddhism ammunition. There are many decent monks who focus on Dhamma though and show obvious detachment from material aquisitions. I guess the old saying is true, you cannot serve God and Mammon.

Number 1, any monk talking about material wealth in anything other than a negative material fashion, isn't a monk.

Number 2, no one needs toilet paper.

Number 3, The words Buddhism and ammunition should not be used in the same sentence, ever.

Number 4. Mammon, I was tempted to say good god, but I'll tone it down to good grief.

1, maybe in a detached fashion. Bowl and robes are still material.

2. I use toilet paper to clean up the puppy's little messages. I don't own the dog, I'm raising it for someone else.

3; Never say never. Execpt when saying never say never. Ammunition was used on monks in Burma and pretty liberally in Tibet. Bullets are just bullets, intent is the real weapon.

4- its just a saying. How about; one cannot pursue realisation and profit simultaneously.

[OxfordWill]

As to what monks ought to be doing, that is not really for most of us to say. As to if laypeople want to meet them, I would only ask you- to what end?

[rockyysdt]

As to what monks ought to be doing, that is not really for most of us to say.

Hi O F.

To some degree compassionate beings may hope that whatever Monks do, their public behavior would exemplify Dharma.

If practicing the Eightfold Path is what its purported to be, then any behavior which brings Buddhism to a poor light might have a negative affect for those at a corossroad.

As to if laypeople want to meet them, I would only ask you- to what end?

A purpose I would have for meeting a Monk is to seek a worthy/experienced teacher/ guide.

Edited October 28, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Several]

I also find that many people have an interest in Buddhism but little knowledge of it. Not saying all laypeople are unknowledgeable but that a sizeable number have an open mind to what Buddhism has to offer. Exemplifying the 8 fold path and giving meditation guidance are paramount, but some people just want someone to explain a few things. To some farangs the temples and monks seem a bit unapproachable which they aren't. Some only see a money-grabbing institution with gilded temples providing nothing to society, which also is not true. But if we never get to talk to them then these ideas go mostly unchallenged.

[Jawnie]

I don't speak much Thai but I know numbers and when I hear him talking nine times out of ten its about money. I realise we need it for various necessities, but we also need toilet paper and we don't obsess over that. Its a shame, I know, and it gives those who dislike Buddhism ammunition. There are many decent monks who focus on Dhamma though and show obvious detachment from material aquisitions. I guess the old saying is true, you cannot serve God and Mammon.

Number 1, any monk talking about material wealth in anything other than a negative material fashion, isn't a monk.

Number 2, no one needs toilet paper.

Number 3, The words Buddhism and ammunition should not be used in the same sentence, ever.

Number 4. Mammon, I was tempted to say good god, but I'll tone it down to good grief.

1, maybe in a detached fashion. Bowl and robes are still material.

2. I use toilet paper to clean up the puppy's little messages. I don't own the dog, I'm raising it for someone else.

3; Never say never. Execpt when saying never say never. Ammunition was used on monks in Burma and pretty liberally in Tibet. Bullets are just bullets, intent is the real weapon.

4- its just a saying. How about; one cannot pursue realisation and profit simultaneously.

What if your pursuit of profit is solely to benefit the Dharma or other beings? Like, to build temples, support the Sangha, build hospitals, feed people, etc.? I think it's entirely possible to pursue profit and realization at the same time. It depends on the motivation.

[Several]

All good things, true. But even a desire to do good is still a desire. Accepting donations and putting them towards the ends you mention would be fine, but pursuing money to do it, though meritous, would inhibit development.

[squarethecircle]

TO answer your original questions, I very much would like to converse with monks; actually several of the most respectable people I've met here were monks (also a Thai university professor), but could not fully communicate due to the language barrier. I think the Buddhists exhibit similar corruption as Christians, Muslims, etc, but the monks (or priests or imams) who exhibit greedy/hypocritical behavior are far more obvious than the ones who quietly go about their path doing good works, purifying themselves (or accepting purification from their God), bringing a bit of shine into the world, etc. If the latter would show themselves in public it might restore confidence in the monkhood, just as if the good priests/preachers became more visible in the US/west, it might restore confidence in churches.

RE: alms. Isn't the idea that the laypeople provide for the monks so that the monks can focus on doing their duty as sages, maintaining the connection between heaven and earth (as the ancient Chinese put it), and so forth?

[Several]

All true. Any religion has its genuine and 'struggling' clerics. The almsround is to support ourselves and it gives laypoeple an opportunity to make merit. Supporting monks is morally good, giving is always beneficial to donor and receiver alike. The monk will dedicate Metta (loving kindness) to the alms giver. Regardless of belief, more love in the world can't be a bad thing.

[sms747]

After watching head monks betting on muay thai matches in the early hours, picking up ladies in panthip plaza and seeing their involment in fortune telling, amulets and 'magic', I have little desire to talk to them. When I have they seem pretty clueless about Buddhism anyway, sad really but it all seems so corrupted.

[shimizu]

Monks are just ordinary people. They come form all walks of live. Talking to them is not really special at all.

[sms747]

Monks are just ordinary people. They come form all walks of live. Talking to them is not really special at all.

But it should be if the have real insight and genuine experience of the religion.

[sabaijai]

It all depends on which monks you talk to.

I have had some impressive discussions with Thai monks over the years, mostly in monasteries known for the quality of the vinaya or meditation practice.

In Chiang Mai, for example, I have met and talked with many fine monks at Wat U Mong, for example. I'm sure there are some less impressive monastics there as well, but most I'm met were pretty deep into dhamma. Generally speaking, Thailand's forest monasteries are a good place to look for monks with something to teach.

[shimizu]

Whey should they have more insight? If Somchai, the local bike mechanic, enters monkhood, shaves his had, dresses in orange and walks down the road in the morning, he still is the same old Somchai. Where would any insight come from? This is a rather romantic idea, that Thai monks have some special insight. After a while, they might memorize a certain vocabulary, but this should not be confused with any real insight. Talk to a monk, and you will find out by yourself very quickly.

Edited November 27, 2012 by shimizu

[Several]

A monk who has been in robes for a time has been away from the influences of the outside world, studying Dhamma and improving understanding of the cause of suffering and its remedies. Laypeople solely involved in the outside world are invariably immersed in it. A person may have a great deal of knowledge but still make the same bad choices due to feeling. For example, hypothetically, a professor writes a report on his findings. Others disagree and ridicule it. The prof becomes irate and argues that these people are not qualified to critisize his work. They become irate and attack all the profs previous work, and so on. This kind of thing happens a lot. Intelligent seeming qualified people making decisions based entirely on greed, anger, delusion and knowing it is wrong but repeating the behaviour regardless. I have known intelligent people who prefer heroin to their own children, those who resort to violence so often that it becomes their only response, a business partner gamble away his employees wages. So why not meet with those who have given up all and changed, if only to see it is possible. One of our purposes as monks is the liberation of all sentient beings from suffering, but many people do not seek it unless their lives have become unrepairable wrecks. All too often they just give up, commit suicide or go on destroying themselves and usually those around them. Of course there are monks of varying quality and I am talking about some extreme cases, but in this self-obsessed technology driven world isn't it a good thing to have some contact with those who put being human first?

[beautifulthailand99]

How many arahants does it take to change a lightbulb ?

[Several]

Only one, but the lightbulb must apply effort.

[Jawnie]

Whey should they have more insight? If Somchai, the local bike mechanic, enters monkhood, shaves his had, dresses in orange and walks down the road in the morning, he still is the same old Somchai. Where would any insight come from? This is a rather romantic idea, that Thai monks have some special insight. After a while, they might memorize a certain vocabulary, but this should not be confused with any real insight. Talk to a monk, and you will find out by yourself very quickly.

This is quite true, if the monk is not truly practicing the dharma, if he has only become a monk for a short period of time as a social custom.

However, if the monk's motivation is correct and he is truly practicing the dharma, he will in fact have knowledge helpful to others. It really depends on the monk.

It also depends on the motivation of other person. If the other person sees monks as ordinary with nothing special to offer, then even the Buddha himself has nothing to offer that kind of person. But, if the other person has faith and devotion to the dharma, then every living being becomes a teacher.

[OxfordWill]

Sabaijai, and anyone else, who has met and discussed something with an "insightful" monk, would you please mind sharing what was discussed and why you enjoyed it?

I am genuinely interested. Its the kind of experience I would like to have myself but have repeatedly failed. Perhaps it is me!

[meadish_sweetball]

Sabaijai, and anyone else, who has met and discussed something with an "insightful" monk, would you please mind sharing what was discussed and why you enjoyed it?

I am genuinely interested. Its the kind of experience I would like to have myself but have repeatedly failed. Perhaps it is me!

What monks have you chatted with? Did you first try to find somebody who is known or respected for a particular reason and then tried to chat about their area of expertise, or did you just try a few random ones?

[OxfordWill]

Random ones, I admit I could put more effort into it, but it's not a priority. Once of those things. However I did once go to a temple in Korat which is famous for being a place to send the alcoholic father in law etc, which have controversial but highly effective techniques which include making their guests vomit regularly.. the "abbot" there is well known, I forget the name (am useless with names) and I had a conversation with him.

But I think, if one has to go and find one out and go to such lengths to research their specialisation or reputation then one is no longer talking about monks, but rather academics.