Best Thai Language School

[Scottish Thailander]

The Walen book actually has exactly what you say, prompts for pen etc. While recoding however we decided not to record them so the rhythm is not lost. Also most of those things are quite easy to guess.

MacW,

Sorry to disagree but if the point of the Walen/Callan method repetition is to enable the student to answer the question correctly then the student must know the relevency of the question so as to be able to automatically answer correctly. Without these prompts the student has no clue as to what there answer should be. Missing these prompts out would more likely cause the student to lose the rhythm. Conversly, by including the prompts on the cd the rhythm will not be lost as it will then mirror the rhythm in your classes. In my opinion therefore, the prompts need to be on the cd. I would advise you to reconsider and include the "prompts".

Secondly, especially as this is the "Book 1" introduction to Thai and 100% of the true beginner (and many of the false beginner) students will be unable to recognise the characters, I would also advise you that each new word's spelling (and its order) needs to be included on the cd when each new word is introduced. Yes, I know your teachers are suppposed to do the spelling in class but from what I have seen the lack of alphabet knowledge when beginning is a major obsticle for many students that I see seriously struggling ( ) with this in your classes and, as the purpose of the cd is (I assume) to assist the students in your classes then, they need this on the cd too. I can read most of the words anyway (false beginner ) but the provision of the spelling is definately required by real beginners and would not detract from flow (again, it would mirror your proper classroom practices) and it would reinforce the word's spelling for those (like me) that can recognise the characters but are not yet competent spellers. At this beginning level, both would surely be beneficial. I would think that the spelling in book 2 onwards would also benefit from the spelling of new words for the same latter reasons (reinforcement, and mirroring class practices).

Surely the cd should be in line with the Walen/Callan method and not cut what some may consider two of the very important features, namely the teacher's actions/prompts and the spelling?

I would hope you are looking to produce a quality product to support what you purport to be a quality course. It would be a shame to sacrifice the quality for a small saving on the time and/or cost saving whilst producing the method's cd product.

Regards.

.

[Tod Daniels]

As you see this forum is not exactly full of people who complain about Walen.

Of course this forum can't be full of people who complain about your school simply because you're a major forum sponsor and negative comments or harsh criticism is forbidden by Forum Rules.

What a shrewd way to keep a positive spin on things, doncha think?

[SoftWater]

Surely the cd should be in line with the Walen/Callan method and not cut what some may consider two of the very important features, namely the teacher's actions/prompts and the spelling?

I guess they're worried people could just buy their course on CD and not bother paying the much higher classroom fees. I was always trying to get my union-system school to make audio of the reading texts but they flat refused. The excuse was they wanted students to listen to real thai spoken by the teacher and interact in conversation, not sit passively listening....I was never convinced! Its business protection - i'm not necessarily criticising it, you can see it from their point of view, but it is a pain if you're paying to go to the school anyway but you can't get any resources to do further practice at home.

Edited July 17, 2009 by SoftWater

[MacWalen]

Interesting comments, have read them all. Thanks for the feedback. Will strive to improve things further.

Walen School - www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen

[MacWalen]

The Walen book actually has exactly what you say, prompts for pen etc. While recoding however we decided not to record them so the rhythm is not lost. Also most of those things are quite easy to guess.

MacW,

Sorry to disagree but if the point of the Walen/Callan method repetition is to enable the student to answer the question correctly then the student must know the relevency of the question so as to be able to automatically answer correctly. Without these prompts the student has no clue as to what there answer should be. Missing these prompts out would more likely cause the student to lose the rhythm. Conversly, by including the prompts on the cd the rhythm will not be lost as it will then mirror the rhythm in your classes. In my opinion therefore, the prompts need to be on the cd. I would advise you to reconsider and include the "prompts".

Secondly, especially as this is the "Book 1" introduction to Thai and 100% of the true beginner (and many of the false beginner) students will be unable to recognise the characters, I would also advise you that each new word's spelling (and its order) needs to be included on the cd when each new word is introduced. Yes, I know your teachers are suppposed to do the spelling in class but from what I have seen the lack of alphabet knowledge when beginning is a major obsticle for many students that I see seriously struggling ( ) with this in your classes and, as the purpose of the cd is (I assume) to assist the students in your classes then, they need this on the cd too. I can read most of the words anyway (false beginner ) but the provision of the spelling is definately required by real beginners and would not detract from flow (again, it would mirror your proper classroom practices) and it would reinforce the word's spelling for those (like me) that can recognise the characters but are not yet competent spellers. At this beginning level, both would surely be beneficial. I would think that the spelling in book 2 onwards would also benefit from the spelling of new words for the same latter reasons (reinforcement, and mirroring class practices).

Surely the cd should be in line with the Walen/Callan method and not cut what some may consider two of the very important features, namely the teacher's actions/prompts and the spelling?

I would hope you are looking to produce a quality product to support what you purport to be a quality course. It would be a shame to sacrifice the quality for a small saving on the time and/or cost saving whilst producing the method's cd product.

Regards.

.

Where did you get those saving ideas from? We were not trying to save neither time nor money, I was done the way it is done on purpose. It works very well, we tested it. And if this is a quality product or not time will show and the student's progress. We will be selling it as set with a book.

Walen School - Why Not To Try For Yourself?

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen

[Scottish Thailander]

.

Where did you get those saving ideas from? We were not trying to save neither time nor money, I was done the way it is done on purpose. It works very well, we tested it. And if this is a quality product or not time will show and the student's progress. We will be selling it as set with a book.

Walen School - Why Not To Try For Yourself?

www.thaiwalen.com

.

MacW,

1) The reason I added the time/quality(specification)/money(cost) is that all business developments(projects) are influenced by the "Project Management Time/Specification/Cost Triangle" or what others call the "Iron Triangle". If one of these points is moved it affects one or both of the other two.

For example:

You are given the options of Fast, Good and Cheap, and told to pick any two. Here Fast refers to the time required to deliver the product, Good is the quality of the final product, and Cheap refers to the total cost of designing and building the product. This triangle reflects the fact that the three properties of a project are interrelated, and it is not possible to optimise all three – one will always suffer. In other words you have three options:

• Design something quickly and to a high standard, but then it will not be cheap.
  
• Design something quickly and cheaply, but it will not be of high quality.
  
• Design something with high quality and cheaply, but it will take a long time.
  

This was relevent to your cd product.

Additionally, if you are going to make/keep your school successful then it must also operate on these principles of it will eventually fail as it has failed to meet one of these:

• Give the Students lessons that are long and high quality (amount of individual attention,teachers/books/cd's etc.), but therefore will not be cheap.
  
• Give the Students lessons that are long and cheap, but therefore will not be of high quality.
  
• Give the Students lessons that are high quality and cheap, but therefore lessons will be shorter.
  

2) I did not mention, but had recognised the point one poster (SoftWater) who commented on the reason why you may not make the cd fully featured is that that would lose you new students as they would not need your teachers. I both agree and disagree. The cd may lose you some but will be so beneficial to others that you will then see the 4x faster claim more likely to appear true and may get more students signing up if the teachers are of good enough quality to add value to the basic "repetition is all that is needed" argument. If the latter is true then there is no need to go to any school anyway as anyone can sit and repeat a few Thai sentences over and over alone. I believe your teachers, if they are quality teachers, and you lose the bad ones and take on good ones, can add a lot and that will be worth the fees to attend lessons (provided the price reflects the benefits that the teachers are adding).

3) However, point 3 here is more important than point number 1. Your response is likely to have also repeated a mistake you have previously made with other posts. You "appear" to have fixated your reply on the least relevent aspect as you find it easier to answer and in order to distract attention from your failure to answer the pertinant most relevent points of the post. In this case the important points were:

• That the cd should be in line with the Walen/Callan method and therefore not cut what some may consider two of the very important features, namely the teacher's actions/prompts or the spelling.
  

This, whether intentional or not, does not give a good impression of your management, or the quality, of the school. You must answer ALL the raised points/questions.

4) Quote: "And if this is a quality product or not time will show and the student's progress."

Sorry, but I also need to disagree with this statement as basic scientific principles of proof apply. You have no control group/basis on which to measure "progress". Unless you produce two cd's, one with the prompts/spelling omitted, and one withe the prompts/spelling included, and then run a control group without a cd, against a group with the basic cd, and against a group with the enhanced cd, then you will not be able to measure the students comparative progress and therefore the quality of the relevent cd's. My money, as already stated would be on the enhanced cd with the prompts/spelling.

5) Advice was, as was the feedback, free. If you want a business consultant full time then make me a reasonable offer and I could be persuaded.

Regards.

(Reason for edit: Add Softwater's name)

Edited July 19, 2009 by Scottish Thailander

[MacWalen]

Dear Scottish Thailander, I enjoy a good discussion.

To cover the points you mentioned. It took a long time to produce the recordings, both speakers had to learn the book to record it with a teaching style and not just read the text. Also there were many mistakes so a lot of lessons had to be rerecorded several times. So it was slow and hopefully to a high standard but as there was not an official release of the CD yet we need to wait for opinions as more listeners will give a more accurate evaluation of our work. Hope you agree with that.

You did not listen to the whole book but just one lesson. There are fewer and fewer examples of referring to charts in the book as the work becomes more advanced. Have you ever listened to the Callan Method recordings? There are also no prompts in Callan. So on this one you are losing a mark. The idea of the Walen Method came from Callan and not sure if you know but Callan is very successful. Judging by the student numbers Walen is getting more and more popular too.

The spelling and vocabulary recordings will be made as soon as we are able to complete book 3 to our satisfaction. In book 3 we do not spell words anymore as by that time our students can spell any Thai word almost like Thai people.

"Advice was, as was the feedback, free. If you want a business consultant full time then make me a reasonable offer and I could be persuaded".

I would be very much interested in you being our business consultant but you would need to pass an interview first. To be a Walen consultant you would need to be better at business than us so we can learn from you. How can we establish that? We are always looking for talent.

Both your advice and feedback were carefully read. Thank you.

Walen School - Judge By Results

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen

[Scottish Thailander]

Dear Scottish Thailander, I enjoy a good discussion.

To cover the points you mentioned. It took a long time to produce the recordings, both speakers had to learn the book to record it with a teaching style and not just read the text. Also there were many mistakes so a lot of lessons had to be rerecorded several times. So it was slow and hopefully to a high standard but as there was not an official release of the CD yet we need to wait for opinions as more listeners will give a more accurate evaluation of our work. Hope you agree with that.

You did not listen to the whole book but just one lesson. There are fewer and fewer examples of referring to charts in the book as the work becomes more advanced. Have you ever listened to the Callan Method recordings? There are also no prompts in Callan. So on this one you are losing a mark. The idea of the Walen Method came from Callan and not sure if you know but Callan is very successful. Judging by the student numbers Walen is getting more and more popular too.

The spelling and vocabulary recordings will be made as soon as we are able to complete book 3 to our satisfaction. In book 3 we do not spell words anymore as by that time our students can spell any Thai word almost like Thai people.

"Advice was, as was the feedback, free. If you want a business consultant full time then make me a reasonable offer and I could be persuaded".

I would be very much interested in you being our business consultant but you would need to pass an interview first. To be a Walen consultant you would need to be better at business than us so we can learn from you. How can we establish that? We are always looking for talent.

Both your advice and feedback were carefully read. Thank you.

Walen School - Judge By Results

www.thaiwalen.com

MacW,

Glad to see you are taking some points into consideration (i.e. the spelling), just a pity you are not fully completing the book 1 cd before issuing it. I assume that anyone who buys the book 1 cd now would get a free replacement cd when you add that additional spelling etc...?

Yes, I agree by book 3 the students may find it excessive as they are already at a good enough standard.

No, I have not listened to the whole book, as you only supplied a part of lesson 1.

Nor have I ever listened to the Callan cd's. However, just because they do not include the prompts does not prove that they also have failed to establish the most effective recording strategy and that you should copy this. I/we would need more info on this. Therefore, if you are scoring, which I was not, I would like to retain my "mark" until proof I am wrong is established.

I do not pretend to be "better" at business than you. Thailand, in my opinion, is full of failed, opinionated "experts" spouting a lot of nonsense about subjects that they know nothing about. I do believe that I can add to any business, giving a valid alternative opinion when required, adding support and constructive criticism when required, and contributing in many other ways to it's success. I have 20 years or so of international corporate experience, most of those in project management, IT, training/teaching, and consultancy roles. If you were serious and able to offer a reasonable package of renumeration, work permit, etc., then I would be willing to discuss things further. Obviously, not in detail on this forum.

Regards.

[soloman]

My Experiences of UTL near Asoke

I am also looking for a suitable school. I have read through most of this forum as part of my research into Thai language schools and taken on board aussiebebe's comments about UTL . My wish list for a school -

1. the lowest level course is for the absolute beginner.

2. there is not too much pressure from teachers (a previous example was given by a forum member).

3. I like the transliteration used by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

4. Sukhumvit area/ BTS.

Schools that I am going to visit when I am in Bangkok in a couple of weeks are Piammitr Language School, AAA Thai Language Center, and Unity Thai Language School. Any comments welcome on these or other schools against my wishlist.

Is there any impact on language schools programs for the rest of the year due to Swine Flu closures? Thanks.

COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

[SoftWater]

COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

Agreed. I wish the moderator(s) would step in. I don't think sponsors should be allowed to post in the forum at all, it taints the whole atmosphere.

I think you'll find the Union system schools have the best reputation amongst former students, going by the posts on this site. I'd second that too. I went to the one at Chit Lom called AAA, but there are many, including UTL(?) at Times Square. Prices are pretty much the same for the different union schools, around 5K for a full-time monthly course (with slight variations). If you can't do full-time most will do evening or weekend private classes one-on-one for about 400bht/hour. that's what I did and I found it really useful. Some prefer to be in a class with others, but i'd rather go at my own pace and not have my time-wasted while the teacher goes over stuff for others that i don't need.

For a list of union schools just google 'union thai language'.

The link for the school i went to is here AAA

I'd thoroughly recommend them.

Good luck.

[Tod Daniels]

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

The big thing you have to ask yourself is; what do you want to accomplish from your language lessons? Is your primary concern a visa to long-stay, or are you serious in pursuing thai language acquisition? While wanting both is not uncommon, learning thai takes time, and you must commit more than the governments minimum of 4 hours a week to the endeavor. You must spend time outside the class room, reviewing material, trying to talk to thais, and putting in the effort that language acquisition takes or you will be frustrated at your slow pace in learning.

In a survey I recently did with over 150 currently enrolled students (at a school which will remain nameless); the number one thing over 90% of the students wanted FIRST was to be able to actually speak thai to thai people!!! They didn't want to read first, nor know how to spell words hoping to pick up proper speech patterns by osmosis. Instead they wanted to know how to speak thai first, read second, and then perhaps write.

With the prime objective of speaking first there are several ways to accomplish this, in differing time frames. Most schools designed to teach the thai language to foreigners utilize their own form of phonemic transcription (often called Karaoke). Whether you go to UTL, PRO-Language, Learning Express, MTL, Piammitr, Jentana, SMIT, or any of the plethora of thai language schools they use a combination of the roman alphabet, and symbols to approximate how thai words would be pronounced in english. This method does give quick results (once you have mastered the schools method of transcription) and you will speak quickly, as well as with a high degree of understandability. Unfortunately, nothing in this country is written in phonemic transcription, so it is important to be introduced to the thai alphabet, vowel, and the toning system to progress after getting a basic understanding of the spoken language. Realize too that written thai, and spoken thai differ in both sentence construction, and words used. Things you would write in thai are often times not spoken of in the same way. For example; in colloquial thai if the subject is understood by the people speaking it is left unstated. Also many words are written language only words, and not used in colloquial speech.

I have toured 25+ thai language schools in the greater Bangkok area (mostly I go to see their teaching material, take a free lesson to gauge their ability to actually teach thai to foreigners, and meet students so I can get that school’s teaching material. Most if not all private thai language schools will not sell their books if you don't attend). As was to be expected; the schools differ widely in teaching methodology, course material, and their teachers’ ability. A school that brags they have issued the most ED visas in thailand and/or says they are the biggest thai language school in the world, may not be the best school. Just as a school that has the first placement when you search Google "thai language schools bangkok", may not be what you are looking for as far as learning the thai language. Do not confuse quantity (nor search engine optimization) with quality. They are as different as nite and day.

My suggestion is; once you’re here, tour as many schools as you can. Almost all offer a 'free lesson'; TAKE IT!! Talk to currently enrolled students in the beginner and more advanced levels. Make sure to talk to the students outside the office, where their responses aren't 'scripted' to what the school wants them to say. Look critically at the schools teaching material. Does lesson two build off the vocabulary learned in lesson one? Does it seem to you like their methodology is something you can learn from? Most people I meet who say they tried to learn thai but failed, failed for one reason only. The method used to teach thai at the school they attended did not mesh with the way that person learns things. Different people learn differently, it is a fact, not conjecture. What may work well for me, you may have difficulty with, and vice versa.

What ever you do, DON'T be in a hurry to pay for ANY schooling. This is after all Thailand, and after sales service as well as cash refunds are mostly unheard of here. Totally disregard ANY hard sell or any school that touts their method as the "best". See for yourself what bang you get for your baht. Also disregard any "special promotional pricing" that conveniently expires the day you tour the school, it's just b/s.

Should you wish a list of schools, what I believe to be the pros and cons of their methodology, and sample scans of their material (I have about 10 schools worth of text books now), don't hesitate to contact me via P/M, and I will give you my email.

Good luck, sorry the post is so long, but I hope it helps you in your quest to learn the thai language.

[RickBradford]

the plethora of thai language schools they use a combination of the roman alphabet, and symbols to approximate how thai words would be pronounced in english.

I saw a course book from one quite large (I believe) school, and the transcription didn't even contain any indication as to the tone of each syllable.

How can students new to Thai be expected to learn a tonal language when their course material totally ignores it?

[Scottish Thailander]

I suspect that is because many Thai "teachers" don't really realise what they are actually pronouncing,. They pronounce the correct word automatically as that is how they learnt it. If you ask them what tone a word is then that almost all take a second or two "trying the word out" to work it out before they tell you. Worst case I saw was one Thai language school teacher telling a whole class several times that if you saw a tone mark on a word (mai ek, tho, thrii, my cat's run a wah , etc, not a phonetic transliteration mark) it meant that that word was always pronounced with that tone. No consideration for class of consonant, vowel length, haw nam, finals etc. And worse still, when challenged on it by a student, she argued that the student was was wrong and she was right before very quickly moving on to the next part of the lesson.

I know we are all imperfect but that seemed a very fundemental mistake for a "Thai teacher" to make.

(edited for a spotted fundemental spelling mistake there might be more)

Edited July 22, 2009 by Scottish Thailander

[Tod Daniels]

Realize most thais learn to read thai by rote, not by rules. They simply re-write, and repeat a word until it is locked into their memory. As they already have the speech part hardwired in when they start learning to read, this works well for them.

I saw was one Thai language school teacher telling a whole class several times that if you saw a tone mark on a word (mai ek, tho, thrii, my cat's run a wah , etc, not a phonetic transliteration mark) it meant that that word was always pronounced with that tone. And worse still, when challenged on it by a student, she argued that the student was was wrong and she was right before very quickly moving on to the next part of the lesson.

I know a teacher of an un-named school who said that very thing during a lesson last week! Under further questioning after the class, she finally admitted to the error, but she was still adamant she was right about that rule most of the time so really only a partial victory. Often times when thai teachers are put on the spot they will fall back on the mindset of “I am thai, therefore I must be right (even if I am wrong)" and/or "you are a foreigner, how dare you question me". Unless you haven’t noticed; critical thinking, and/or EVER questioning a teacher are not things thais would learn in school here.

In reply to RickBradford:

Most thai language schools which rely on phonemic transcription use a variety of punctuation symbols to denote if a word carries the low, medium, high, rising or falling tones. Unfortunately as there is no single "government approved" transcription method, (and the one that is at least "semi-official" has NO built in toning system at all). That means it's up to each school to develop their own method, or with this being thailand; usually they just copy it from another school.

For example; it's very easy to tell any of the schools which derive their course structure and material from the original "Union Method" in teaching thai. It was used initially to teach foreign missionaries (Jehovah Witness, Catholic, 7th Day Adventists, and the like) who were sent here to convert the masses. All the schools which currently use this method are founded by one or more of the original Union teaching staff, (who were, when the Union school first started, very young women; but now IMHO have morphed into pretentious old hags). The text books used in those schools show the similarity in transcription, course material, and vocabulary; almost to the point of being the same course word for word with only a different cover.

While I am no fan of Benjawan Poomsan Becker (other than acknowledging she is one very shrewd business person and that single-handedly, she has probably done more to expose foreigners to the thai language than any thai national living or dead). With that being said; hers is a good example of a uniquely different yet quite understandable toning/pronunciation method. One which she uses consistently thru-out her books until she stops using transcription on the Advanced Thai book.

Just for the record:

When I first started to learn to speak thai I concentrated on only two tones; rising and falling. Those are the ones which for foreigners are most likely to go "off script" on when speaking. Pronounce ผี (ghost - phee-R) instead of พี่ (elder brother - phee-F) or เสือ (tiger - seuua-R) instead of เสื้อ (shirt - seuua-F) when you’re speaking and see what I mean. In colloquial speech, the other 3 tones (low, mid, high) are so close in pronunciation that almost to a person thais will understand which word you are saying from context of the sentence.

I know the language purists will say a high tone is markedly dissimilar to either the mid or low tone. While that is theoretically correct; unless we're trying to speak like pretentious prigs, it has little if any impact on understandability when a foreigner is speaking casually to a thai person. I’ve never had a thai mistake มา (come - maa-M) for ม้า (horse - maa-H) in conversation, (nor the other way around when I am actually talking about horses).

I try to strive for "mutually understood communication" rather than wanting to sound like a “stuck-up hi-so thai” who "rolls their r's" and over enunciates their toning so everyone knows they have an education (even if their father bought it for them).

[RickBradford]

^^^

Sure, at the individual teacher level.

But you'd think that a large school would have someone in management who could figure out that tone is going to be one of the major hurdles to be faced by a farang student, and that it should at least be referred to in coursework.

To ignore the tones while trying to teach a tonal language seems a pretty incompetent way to proceed,,,,

[jbeck]

^^^

Sure, at the individual teacher level.

But you'd think that a large school would have someone in management who could figure out that tone is going to be one of the major hurdles to be faced by a farang student, and that it should at least be referred to in coursework.

To ignore the tones while trying to teach a tonal language seems a pretty incompetent way to proceed,,,,

HI everyone,

sorry I haven't time to read the whole thread but I can let you know the AUA school in Chiang Mai (June 2009) does NOT follow their "advertised" teaching methodology, or use their own book (for level 2 at least).

I tried two of the teachers (for level 2) and I wouldn't have even know I was in the same school - if I didn't know it beforehand.

I would have dropped out if they would have given me my money back.

I am a serious learner and not doing this for "fun", which seemed to be what most of the people in the class were doing, and seemed happy with it.

There's too many details to list, but it was very disappointing for ME: wanting to really learn to be fluent, learn proper tone production, SPEAK during the class, repetition, understand when to use words that are very similar but have different meanings, etc... A serious amount of time was spent with the teacher telling stories about Chiang Mai and Farang and (her) really enjoying it.

the Chiang Mai University introductory class is similar (dec 2008), overcrowded, and if you're not looking for fun it would not recommend it.

Both classes get sidetracked by students with jokes, irrelevant questions, teachers pointing out differences ('inferiorities') of farang (really!).

Both classes you have to mostly listen to other students speak thai incorrectly, with very little correction (if any) by the teacher so you are learning from the students (incorrectly) during this time and memorizing incorrect grammar and tone.

Also they definitely play favorites when answering questions, with apparently important questions being ingored for ones that interest the instructor.

I am not making this up, and it cost me about 7500 baht total.

I am from America.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

[Tod Daniels]

While I know nothing of the AUA branch in Chiang Mai, I can attest to the fact that the AUA school in Bangkok is initially a listening ONLY type of school.

It uses the "ALG" aka "Automatic Language Growth" method when learning thai. While I did research into the methodology, I was less than impressed. The innovators of the ALG system allege that after 600 hours of listening to two thai people interact on a stage using a variety of props, you will magically be able to converse in thai to thais. This is done with ZERO student interaction, no question/answers in class and not actually speaking ANY thai at all in the classroom. A dubious claim at best, but with that being said, I did meet several people who had attended 300+ hours and could speak some sort of semi-intelligible thai. Although upon further questioning; they were also learning thai with other resources.

To their credit the teachers or "actors" at AUA are innovative, interesting, theatrical and being thai nationals, speak clear thai. They tend to speak at normal speed and cadence so it's hard to hear the word breaks if you're not used to listening to thais speak. On the up side, if you buy blocks of hours, it's by far the most inexpensive thai language school to attend. The classes are offered many, many hours a day, and you can go at your convenience.

If I am not mistaken, AUA is one of the hardest schools to get an education visa from. Last time I was there they said you must attend class 30 hours a week to qualify for them to help you get your visa. Most private thai language schools stick to the Ministry of Education's minimum of 4 hours a week spread over a year to get a visa.

AUA does have a reading and writing course, but you must test into if you don't attend their whacky "learn to speak by listening only" class before hand. I spoke to the lady who oversees enrollment and it appears the test is such that even a marginal reader of thai, and/or a very basic speaker could probably get into the class if they pushed it, and were motivated to learn once they got in.

The good news is AUA sells all the old text books that they used (before they converted to the ALG method) to teach speaking, reading and writing thai at the bookstore. I couldn't get the cassettes that go with the speaking thai books (that shows you how old the material and method is) as they are all out of stock. Maybe bit-torrent has them I dunno.

I am sorry to hear the experience the previous poster had with CMU as I’ve got their materials and they seem well thought out, building on previous lessons, and many people I know up there have taken their class to great benefit. I guess its up to the individual to make sure they get bang for their baht where ever they attend. I for one would have no problem letting someone know if I was unhappy, or felt too little time was spent on learning the language.

[RickBradford]

TL-C has a perfectly workable tone marking system

maM-maR-maH-maF-maL

Or it could be adapted from a language with similar tones (ie Vietnamese)

ma mả mã má mạ

The fact that there's no standard way to transcribe this, shouldn't stop schools informing students that Thai is a tonal language, surely.

[thaicourseseeker]

I have some experience with this periodically over the last five years on extended stays having attended for a while at the Somchat, Jentana's and Smile languages school - in terms of materials and teaching standards there is little difference. In fact the two ladies behind Jentana and Smile schools both taught at Nisa school ( I think if that is the one at Sathorn) before setting up on their own.

The teachers are lowly paid and have to work long hours so staff turnover is high and their hearts are not always in it. As a beginner as well it is frustrating to get a new teacher with poor English who will just smile when you ask valid questions - If I was to recommend one of these schools it would be Jentana's purely for Jentana herself - she is a well-organised lady and a very good laugh as well.

I had previously attended group classes at London university and did go and look at Unity and AUA - I am sorry but I didn't feel I could possibly learn in a group situation again with the continuous mis-pronunciations ( when it got round to me I was probably the worse culprit) so attended the schools offering one-one tuition. What I have found is needed is a real teacher who will correct you everytime you make a mistake not a shy young lady who sits smiling as you utter gobbledygook.

Now that I live in Thailand I have decided it is an absolute must to finally learn the language. I considered going back to one of the schools but recall how hit and miss it was with teachers. I was pleased to find that one of the teachers I had previously encountered was still teaching but on a freelance basis - i learn about 4 times a week at home and in a short time have made considerable progress. I would have no hesitation to recommend this lady as she has been teaching for over 10 years and has helped many nationalities to fluency - for the first time i feel i will be able to achieve that. Anyway I know one is not supposed to advertise but I would happily pass on contact details to anyone seriously wishing to learn.

Cheers BB

Hi Cheers BB,

Would you please pass on her contact info?

Thank you

[MacWalen]

Walen School of Thai has a new branch in Ladprao (Bangkok) in the Elephant building, tower B, 16th floor. We are open for business there as of today 1st August. If Ladprao is a more convinient location for you, you are welcome to relocate to the new branch. Also if you are looking for a Thai school and Ladprao is where you live perhaps this is what you have been looking for, a good school near your place.

Regards

Walen School of Thai - Two locations in Bangkok

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen

[JoePai]

COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

Agreed. I wish the moderator(s) would step in. I don't think sponsors should be allowed to post in the forum at all, it taints the whole atmosphere.

[dragonfly94]

COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

Agreed. I wish the moderator(s) would step in. I don't think sponsors should be allowed to post in the forum at all, it taints the whole atmosphere.

They do step in, but only if you post negative views of Wallen, even if they are just your honest opinion after going there! I don't think really good places NEED to advertise as they get Students by word of mouth IF they are any good.

Edited August 2, 2009 by dragonfly94

[MacWalen]

Wallen = Walen

I am afraid you do not know much about marketing khun Dragonfly94.

What about Coke? Do they need to advertise? We all know it is a nice drink and everybody knows it but they still do.

Have you ever seen BMW advertised?

Rolex?

Are those companies producing bad products? Maybe just the word of mouth would be sufficient. Also for the record we do get a lot of students by word of mouth.

Looking at your negative posts (some deleted) looks like you are placing them because you obviously do not like us or perhaps of other reasons which you did not explain well enough. If you just like abusing people it will not take you very far. Moderators delete posts only if they have a reason.

So tell us clearly Dragonfly94 what exactly do you have against Walen? How many lessons have you taken? I would like to ask students about you as a student, perhaps the problem is not with the school but with you. Could that be the case?

Regards

Walen School of Thai

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited February 28, 2011 by macwalen

[dseawarrior]

I wasn't so impressed with Baan Phasaa Thai but maybe it was my teacher. I think they covered a lot of material but didn't really make me work at it. Also spoke English to me too much.

I have had 1:1 at Berlitz for about 7 months and like that. So far all conversation, no reading & writing. I'd say the teacher speaks Thai to me 99% of the time. She just forces me to talk, talk and talk in Thai adding words and grammar as we go along. I consider myself a slow learner for languages but do get a few complements on my Thai, including accent, and I'll have to give all that credit to my teacher and the Berlitz method. Downside: expensive. (they have a web site)

Do think I need to bear down on the reading & writing and now sure how I will approach that. I another 1:1 teacher my company provides and she introduces some (forget the name of that school as she comes to me). Some of the software is good from drilling on some of this.

I thought about a private tutor for just conversation. Ended up searching on the Thailovelinks web site and have made some friends that like to speak Thai with me. The best seem to be 20’s college educated so they have the book English fresh in their minds but haven’t had work experience in an multi-national or situation where they are confident English speakers. I’ve found a few who are fairly natural teachers – know when to correct and when to just let me rattle on, have an ear to understand, etc. That has been a win-win for both of us. We have some fun, go do things, have simple conversations, I of course pick up the tab but it’s cheaper than a teacher most times while being fun and natural. My experience is that if someone has strong English skills the conversation just ends up in English too much and likewise if they don’ speak any English it’s hard for them to coach me.

Good luck,

Good strategies ~ I agree ~ making friends and using Thai in "natural" settings is vital... I have had a lot of success with similar methods... You'd be surprised how much Thai I have via getting nice chatty massages, too...

For a year, I lived in a smallish Thai village in Chiang Mai where I was the only farang. And when I went shopping at the local market, chatted with neighbors or talked with my girlfriend I ONLY USED THAI ~ LOTS OF WORK looking up things in the dictionary at first ~ but the time gives dividends and is like "money in the bank" for language training...

To converse at normal speed, you must immerse yourself on many levels... Friends, locals, neighbors, TV, radio, MUSIC is GREAT!!!

At my home, I did not get cable and only listened to broadcast THAI TV ALL THE TIME I WAS AT HOME ~ even fell asleep to Thai TV ~ that way I could rack up maybe 4-5 hours a night of listening to THAI TV EVERY DAY! At first (1st month), it gave me a headache, but soon (maybe 3 months) I was understanding more and more...

After 10 months, I felt I had a LOT of good listening comprehension at normal speed and then that helped my speaking skills and speed, too...

The keys are repetition, self study and immersion with the Thai media and your Thai friends ~ variety is important!

Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...) All department meetings were in Thai, too. As well as all conferences, too...

So, now, my spoken Thai is at a rather high conversational level and high for comprehension, too... But, it is a constant process of improving learning and understanding...

...Just think of how long you have been studying English to understand this email at a high level???

Same same for Thai ~ you must amass THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF ACTIVE AND PASSIVE LISTENING AND TALKING...

Now, I am starting to read and write in Thai at a much higher level, but it will be more years before I can say I am a really fluent reader or writer...

I am also a musician and that helps greatly to hear the subtleties of Thai and its tones....

Remember, you are your own best teacher and you know what you want and need to learn at what time is right for you...

Enjoy the journey...

Kaw hai mee chok dee na krab,

[dseawarrior]

Holy cow!

Macwalen, every post you make is like watching you put another nail in your own coffin.

There is nothing more frustrating than having the "management" attempt to put the blame back on the person making critical remarks.

Regarding the teachers. I have not been in the class and I am not able to exactly picture what it looked like but you were the only person who complained. I have spoken with both teachers and perhaps you overreacted a little. They are actually well trained. As a matter of fact I train teachers on a regular basis.

"I wasn't in the class, so I don't know what is really going on (but that won't stop me from proceeding as if I had been), but no one else complained so you must be the troublemaker and the teachers, whom I train my wonderful self regularly, make it out that YOU were the problem and were overreacting."

And then a litany of defensive posts.

I thought my years in management school were more or less exercises in common sense, but you take the cake. You should assume the student is right and make every effort to not only make things right for him, but for others who glean information from these exchanges as well.

Looking over your posts and your tenor, I wouldn't come near your school. (And you will probably reply in the vein of, "Great, we don't want a student like you anyway!")

Tuktong na krab!!! (That's right!!!)

Mai dong yung gab rongrien muen nee krab... (Don't get involved with a school like this... )

Kao gamlang ateebai mag gern bai (He is explaining too much )

~ sadaeng waa kao mai sonjai nakrien kid yang rai.... ( ~ showing that he is not interested in what student/s think about this... )

Hen duay mai krab? (Do you see the same? Do you agree? ;-)

Kaw hai chok dee rongrien nee... (May this school have good luck... )

Kao dong mee chok dee nae nawn! (They should definitely need good luck!)

[LantaSchool]

Hi All

We offer effective Thai language courses, but our motive for posting to this forum is not necessarily a direct promotion of our school, but more to advise you of what we have learned in our research into effective methods for learning a second language.

Whichever school or course you choose – here are some things for you to consider:

1. If you learn by doing, seeing, feeling and experiencing, as well as listening, your knowledge of the language will grow far more naturally and it will become much more deeply engrained at a subconscious level. Think about how easy we pick up our native language as children, and consider how we learn. Research shows that these methods can be adopted into adult learning as well. So choose a course that engages all of your senses in the learning process. A course that helps you to relate a word to a particular feeling or action - For example - learn the word laugh, by hearing it repeatedly while you are laughing. Or learn the word "jump" while you are jumping up and down. Learn the numbers while being told (in Thai) to jump up and down once, twice, three times etc....

2. By learning from an action or feeling, you will learn to "think" in Thai. If you learn from a vocabulary list, you will only learn the translation, and will constantly need to translate from your own language before speaking. This will inhibit any conversations.

3. Listening plays a huge role in learning the Thai language. As it is a tonal language, your ears need to become much more attuned to listening for changes in note, in order to interpret the meaning. However many westerners may struggle with this as they are not used to listening so acutely. A good course will therefore use some kind of visual aid to help you become more familiar with the tones - arm signals for example, to indicate rising, falling etc.....

4. Make sure that any course introduces you to new words, and then repeatedly re-introduces the words in varied formats. This way you will be able to draw on your memory of many different scenarios relating to that particular word. The varied formats could be actions, sound files, games and videos of real life scenarios.

5. Make sure that the school or course you use really does understand the Thai culture. This goes without saying really... but the best way to understand the Thai culture is to be taught by a Thai-speaking person. This is particularly important when learning Thai as it is what is known as a "HIGH CONTEXT" language. They cannot use tone to express emotion, and they do not like to lose face... with this in mind you really need to become familiar with what is assumed to be "understood" among Thai people, given the context of a situation.

6. Reading and writing also plays a vital role in learning to speak Thai. Although you may not be interested in the reading and writing aspect of the Thai language... having some knowledge of the alphabet will assist you immensely when learning to speak. You will start to gain much more assistance from things such as signposts for example....

There are many other things to consider... but I hope these points help you sieve through some of the many options available to you...

Most of all - remember... the Thai language is fun to learn, enjoy your journey into the culture and the language...

Good luck!!

[SoftWater]

@LantaSchool

Thanks for this nice summary, and I don’t wish to unduly criticise what seems a well-intentioned post; however, there are a couple of myths here about the psychology of language acquisition and about the Thai language I should like to point out for those just starting out and choosing a language school.

Point 5 about Thai being a ‘high-context’ language seems right enough, but it’s not quite accurate to say Thais cannot use ‘tone’ the way other languages do. Thai is ‘tonal’, but the word ‘tone’ has a very specific, and quite limited application in reference to Thai. Like English, Thai speakers can and do use intonation, as well as vary stress, pitch, volume and tempo (all of which may generally, if inaccurately, be connoted by the word English word ‘tone’ in the wider sense) to reflect emotions. The sound of an angry voice, to take a blunt example, can be similarly recognised in both Thai and English by a speakers’ intonation, stress, volume and so on even if one has no knowledge or understanding of the vocabulary. The idea that because Thai is a ‘tonal’ language, emotions can only be understood in context is, at best, a bit of an over-simplification. Switch on channel 3, close your eyes, and even a beginner will be able to tell the differene between two lovers smooching and two 'ladies' cat fighting!

Points 1 and 2 are more of a worry in terms of misleading new language learners. I agree physical activities can make language learning fun and interesting and can help to cognitively cement new vocabulary. However, that is not to say that this is i. the only way or ii. the best way to learn a language. People respond positively to different kinds of teaching methods. Personally, I would not enjoy going to a class where a teacher tried to make me engage in “child-like” learning games. To imply that people who share my aversion to this kind of 'role play' are reducing their chances of successfully acquiring a new language is, at best, misleading.

It is also manifestly false that learning from a vocab list will condemn you to translation as stated in point 2. I’d hazard a guess that most of those reading this post who have picked up Thai as a second language learned ห้วเราะ in just that way and can use it, and much other vocab, quite reflexively. Whether someone translates before parsing meaning has nothing to do with how they learned words but with the frequency in which they meet and use those expresssions.

Finally, if you're choosing a school for the first time, please beware the BS about 'natural learning'. Despite what a lot of ‘quick-fix’ language schools say to generate business (i’m not suggesting this about Lanta, i don’t know anything about them, my point is general), there is NO valid research that shows adults can learn a language like a child.

Our cognitive abilities are utterly unalike, not least because children learn a language while discovering the world, developing social interaction skills and expanding their cognitive and conceptual abilities. Language plays an essential role in their psychological development. They are hard-wiring their brains through language as they physically and psychologically mature. For adults, this process has already taken place, which means adult language learns have always to deal with interference from their native language and the habitual hard-wiring of their brain. This point is so widely accepted in academic circles, its barely credible that so many schools get away with perpetuating the "learn naturally like a child" myth. Of course, it sells seats, but I would strongly advise anyone looking for a good school to avoid this kind of charlatanism (indeed, it would be interesting to hear from any of the more advanced non-native speakers of Thai who populate this site whether ANY of them had learned 'naturally like a child' - i'm betting my rather inedible hat that the number is absolute zero!)

All that said, once again, I do think you made a nice summary of some points worth sharing.

Edited August 5, 2009 by SoftWater

[dseawarrior]

@LantaSchool

Thanks for this nice summary, and I don’t wish to unduly criticise what seems a well-intentioned post; however, there are a couple of myths here about the psychology of language acquisition and about the Thai language I should like to point out for those just starting out and choosing a language school.

Point 5 about Thai being a ‘high-context’ language seems right enough, but it’s not quite accurate to say Thais cannot use ‘tone’ the way other languages do. Thai is ‘tonal’, but the word ‘tone’ has a very specific, and quite limited application in reference to Thai. Like English, Thai speakers can and do use intonation, as well as vary stress, pitch, volume and tempo (all of which may generally, if inaccurately, be connoted by the word English word ‘tone’ in the wider sense) to reflect emotions. The sound of an angry voice, to take a blunt example, can be similarly recognised in both Thai and English by a speakers’ intonation, stress, volume and so on even if one has no knowledge or understanding of the vocabulary. The idea that because Thai is a ‘tonal’ language, emotions can only be understood in context is, at best, a bit of an over-simplification. Switch on channel 3, close your eyes, and even a beginner will be able to tell the differene between two lovers smooching and two 'ladies' cat fighting!

Points 1 and 2 are more of a worry in terms of misleading new language learners. I agree physical activities can make language learning fun and interesting and can help to cognitively cement new vocabulary. However, that is not to say that this is i. the only way or ii. the best way to learn a language. People respond positively to different kinds of teaching methods. Personally, I would not enjoy going to a class where a teacher tried to make me engage in “child-like” learning games. To imply that people who share my aversion to this kind of 'role play' are reducing their chances of successfully acquiring a new language is, at best, misleading.

It is also manifestly false that learning from a vocab list will condemn you to translation as stated in point 2. I’d hazard a guess that most of those reading this post who have picked up Thai as a second language learned ห้วเราะ in just that way and can use it, and much other vocab, quite reflexively. Whether someone translates before parsing meaning has nothing to do with how they learned words but with the frequency in which they meet and use those expresssions.

Finally, if you're choosing a school for the first time, please beware the BS about 'natural learning'. Despite what a lot of ‘quick-fix’ language schools say to generate business (i’m not suggesting this about Lanta, i don’t know anything about them, my point is general), there is NO valid research that shows adults can learn a language like a child.

Our cognitive abilities are utterly unalike, not least because children learn a language while discovering the world, developing social interaction skills and expanding their cognitive and conceptual abilities. Language plays an essential role in their psychological development. They are hard-wiring their brains through language as they physically and psychologically mature. For adults, this process has already taken place, which means adult language learns have always to deal with interference from their native language and the habitual hard-wiring of their brain. This point is so widely accepted in academic circles, its barely credible that so many schools get away with perpetuating the "learn naturally like a child" myth. Of course, it sells seats, but I would strongly advise anyone looking for a good school to avoid this kind of charlatanism (indeed, it would be interesting to hear from any of the more advanced non-native speakers of Thai who populate this site whether ANY of them had learned 'naturally like a child' - i'm betting my rather inedible hat that the number is absolute zero!)

All that said, once again, I do think you made a nice summary of some points worth sharing.

SoftWater makes some interesting points...

I disagree with the ideas about the brain's "hard wiring." Sure, that is true to a point, but SoftWater overgeneralizes...

More and more the neuroscientists agree that people's brains are much more plastic than many people think...

Think brain plasticity and lifelong learning...

Once "commonly accepted" ideas of learning and the brain development have been soundly rejected. Take the examples of stroke patients who suddenly find that they have "new interests and emerging skills" that they "never" considered before the brain injury of the stroke...

Much depends on many "soft factors" such as nutrition, exercise, social support, friends, varied stimulation, personal attitudes about learning and reinforcement of learning progress...

Sure "book learning" is helpful and necessary but social and natural reinforcement is essential too...

Think broadly about how you learn and what creates success for you as a learner ~ this varies greatly among individuals... (read this sentence again! ;-)

Kid gwaang gwaang ~ mai dong kid kaep!

Think broadly ~ don't think narrowly!

Good luck to everyone with their studies ~ a beginner's mind can be very helpful ~ nothing about these approaches is "the best" ~ what matters is what works best for you ~ and even that can and will change with time...

[SoftWater]

More and more the neuroscientists agree that people's brains are much more plastic than many people think...

Think brain plasticity and lifelong learning...

There is no inconsistency between the points you make and my points against the myth of the so-called natural learning methods. Yes, the neurons and neural paths in our brains make new connections, both when the brain is injured and, more generally, whenever we learn a new skill. But with all due respect, that is irrelevant to whether one can replicate the cognitive and linguistic learning processes of a partially developed infant/child’s brain in an already mature and properly functioning brain. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find any neuroscientist on the planet who would sign up to that idea.

But there’s no reason why anyone should take my word for it – better that before you buy into some pseudo-scientific sales pitch, do your own research about their claims. Ask the schools what independent studies can they cite that would support their theory? Lanta say their ‘research’ has shown that…but the use of the word ‘research’ should immediately raise eyebrows. Promoting your own methodology by citing your methodology is not what the word ‘research’ normally connotes. “Research” implies independently verifiable studies. And I didn’t see Lanta rush to cite any of these.

AUA is a good example of a school with pseudo-scientific claims – this school states in its sales leaflet that they have never seen a student master Thai who has not learned via the natural method.

I’d love to know what exactly this claim means and what evidence is it based on.

What does ‘master Thai’ mean? = equivalent to a native speaker? That sets the bar to high.

What does ‘never seen’ mean? = they haven’t gone out and found all the very competent Thai speakers that are out there who didn’t go to their school? Then they didn’t look very hard.

And notice that the so-called claim is a negative – but where is the positive evidence?

If their system was the only way to properly learn Thai there should be plenty of evidence to show how successful it is. (e.g., most if not all of those very competent Thai speakers on this site and elsewhere must presumably have gone to AUA…I don’t think so…but let’s ask the forum.

Q: Has anyone done ALL and ONLY AUA’s natural learning method, and can they demonstrate that their Thai is as proficient as a native speaker (because that’s what AUA’s claim amounts to..)?

Can’t wait to be proved wrong ☺

Edited August 6, 2009 by SoftWater

[SoftWater]

Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...)

What field is that?

I was under the impression that the only foreign instructors at Chula were those teaching English or those teaching subject fields in international programs (in which case they are supposed to teach in English not Thai)?

Edited August 7, 2009 by SoftWater